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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Is this even their(marines) final form though... ??

What, are we looking forward to a whole range of "super-Primaris" on 40mm bases in 10th edition that invalidates all the Primaris?

His power level is over 9000!!!!!

On the level though -

From a leyman. whats the difference between a deathwatch marine and a non black (in some case other black) marine apart from shoulder pad?

They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Their whole "shtick" seems to be about breaking the FOC and mixing and matching units from different entries with added rules on top. When dealing with a codex of 98+ entries the balancing just seems like a right nightmare.
Couldn't they just get chapter rules+strats instead, and have their fancy shoulder pads so you can paint them and play them as deathwatch?

Not that this is something thats only specific to DW mind..

But it is what it is. Doesn't really bother me other than the: "design space erosion" and "resource allocation" and "yay! moar marines...".

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

I did put an "if" in there. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think their focus on power armor has to have some affect on the other factions, right?

Ah the old "just asking the question" bs. Nice try. Too bad you already tipped your hand at being interested only in gatekeeping what other people can play.

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there. I care that many model lines are neglected while GW makes more power armor.

SecondTime wrote:

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there.

SecondTime wrote:
SW and DW and 1 and 2 on my squat list. I hate everything about SW so much. I can keep my mouth shut in a match, but not the look of contempt off my face.

I'm sorry, what were you lying about this time?

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

I don't really care what they play. So you're wrong there.

SecondTime wrote:
SW and DW and 1 and 2 on my squat list. I hate everything about SW so much. I can keep my mouth shut in a match, but not the look of contempt off my face.

I'm sorry, what were you lying about this time?

Ah, SW. They're a special case. I don't care as much about DW, I just think they're a dumb faction that I personally would squat for being dumb and Mary Sues. SW are actively offensive to me.

I can gatekeep just fine by refusing games as well. Sorry if you can't handle my opinions about it.

I'd squat SW in a heartbeat and personally melt down their molds if I could. But I can't. So I don't see why you are so triggered.

SecondTime wrote:

Ah, SW. They're a special case. I don't care as much about DW, I just think they're a dumb faction that I personally would squat for being dumb. SW are actively offensive to me.

I can gatekeep just fine by refusing games as well. Sorry if you can't handle my opinions about it.

Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you're only interested in having fun at the direct expense of others.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Ah, SW. They're a special case. I don't care as much about DW, I just think they're a dumb faction that I personally would squat for being dumb. SW are actively offensive to me.

I can gatekeep just fine by refusing games as well. Sorry if you can't handle my opinions about it.

Thank you for making it abundantly clear that you're only interested in having fun at the direct expense of others.

How is it their direct expense? I can assure you I have other interests as well.

SecondTime wrote:

How is it their direct expense?

You openly state you want to destroy other people's armies because they dont meet with your approval, and that you'll go out of your way to prevent them from getting games for no other reason than they dont do what you want them to.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

How is it their direct expense?

You openly state you want to destroy other people's armies because they dont meet with your approval, and that you'll go out of your way to prevent them from getting games for no other reason than they dont do what you want them to.

They can play other people all they want if I'm not in the mood to deal with the nonsense. I have no power to make any of this happen, so why do you even care? Seriously. Obviously, if I'm in a tournament I signed up to play anyone. But I'm within my rights to make personal judgments about factions.

 Argive wrote:
...They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Deathwatch have the veteran statline (+1A/+1Ld), GK don't.

SecondTime wrote:

They can play other people all they want if I'm not in the mood to deal with the nonsense. I have no power to make any of this happen, so why do you even care?

Because the kind of gatekeeping you seem to get off on is a blight on any hobby, and it has no place in 40k, or on these boards.

SecondTime wrote:
But I'm within my rights to make personal judgments about factions.

Yes you do, and I genuinely dont care what that opinion is. I care when you do things like openly state you want to delete armies that you dont approve of, and punish other players for not submitting to your personal edicts about how the game should be played.

 Vaktathi wrote:
GW's concept of what constitutes an "army" is rather nebulous. Basically any potential armed force that exists within the 40k universe gets to become an "army". If one were to do a modern combat game in that vein, we'd be seeing drug running Biker gangs lining up for battle against High Altitude Low Open parachuting SAS, or desert militia Technical caravans getting in pitched firefights with the FBI, or games where the Russian 4th Guards Tank Division is its own faction separate from the rest of the Russian Federation Army and is faced against the US Secret Service in urban combat. Those are the sorts of things 40k routinely presents.
d.

I'd play that game

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Deathwatch have the veteran statline (+1A/+1Ld), GK don't.

I was more thinking about this on the "fluff" based on my very limited reading knowledge.

GK seem more like they should have the extra stats because "super elite even by marine standards".

DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone".
DW are basically balck shields concept expanded right ?

Oh, I see. You are now the morality police. Got it.

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone? I think they'd appreciate the honesty.

"I'm not playing you because I don't feel like dealing with your nonsense faction today."

I've told dozens of SW players that I'd squat their faction to their face and none of them reacted like this. I made it clear it wasn't personal.

Sterling191 wrote:
...

SecondTime wrote:
But I'm within my rights to make personal judgments about factions.

Yes you do, and I genuinely dont care what that opinion is. I care when you do things like openly state you want to delete armies that you dont approve of, and punish other players for not submitting to your personal edicts about how the game should be played.

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

Sterling191 wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

Never mentioned deleting the army

That's precisely what you teed up. The following are all your own words from this thread:

"Is this army a bad idea?"

"This army doesnt make sense"

"I dont like the idea of this army"

The endgame is abundantly clear.

I do not have the ability to stop anyone from playing death watch nor do I wish I did. So you don’t need to try and shut me down.

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

We both know that's demonstrably false. It's quite easy to go over to the Forge World index thread and find folks quite upset about the deletion of several factions from earlier this week.

Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

SecondTime wrote:


I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

Thank you for continuing to admit that you're trying to set yourself up as the arbiter of what fun other people are allowed to have, and that you're actively working to prevent them from enjoying their armies.

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

Eldar are a main faction. At least they have been up until now. The game is worse off for having the Deathwatch faction if that is in any way contributory to Eldar (and others) being stuck with sculpts from last century. Xenos in general seem so have half their lines out of stock at any given time. GW's obsession with power armor IS a contributing factor to this problem. And a hero is only as good as their villain. I guess GW forgot this.

You're blaming a lack of plastic Aspect Warriors on the Deathwatch. That's patently delusional.

It certainly seems to contribute.

I'm not sure about "it shouldn't exist" - but I think all the Marine+ factions suffer something of an identity crisis and its not obvious where, if anywhere, they are meant to go.

This is perhaps especially acute with Deathwatch, because I don't think they have even tried to "Deathwatchify" the Primaris. Admittedly I'm sick of Marines Marines Marines - so its not like I want a unit of Primaris running around with Xenos Tech or magic custom shotguns etc - but... it would be something.

Hecaton wrote:

It certainly seems to contribute.

Deathwatch have five kits specific to the faction, three of which came from a board game (and two of those are single model characters). Of the remaining two, one is a vehicle, the other a 5-man infantry box. In the intervening time between now and the last updates to Aspect Warriors the entire Drukhari line (excepting specific finecast and resin characters) and the entire Harlequins line have been redone. By any objective measure, other Eldar have done more to preclude resculpts of Aspects than Deathwatch.

 Argive wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...They do seem like more mariney marines but not quite as elite or mariney as GK...

Deathwatch have the veteran statline (+1A/+1Ld), GK don't.

I was more thinking about this on the "fluff" based on my very limited reading knowledge.

GK seem more like they should have the extra stats because "super elite even by marine standards".

DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone".
DW are basically balck shields concept expanded right ?

I thought DW were more like commandos.

Grey knights are more like the men who stared at goats

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:


I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

Thank you for continuing to admit that you're trying to set yourself up as the arbiter of what fun other people are allowed to have, and that you're actively working to prevent them from enjoying their armies.

Now you are just repeating yourself. I not going to feel bad for refusing games i dont want to play.

 Argive wrote:

DW are basically balck shields concept expanded right ?

The Deathwatch are not an evolution of the 30k Blackshield concept. They are a coalition of Astartes drawn from every Chapter in the Imperium. Generally, those who go off to join the Deathwatch do so as honored veterans of their Chapter. However, there is a tradition that a warrior can present himself to a Watch Fortress with his Chapter insignia obscured, and if he meets with the approval of the Fortress' leadership he can be accepted into the Deathwatch.

 Galas wrote:
So you are saying that in a hypothetical world were GW released much less marines all of those things would have been done?

I'm gonna disagree. If GW wants to do something, THEY DO IT. Is not like they are limited, they are in a constant state of expansion FFS,

I can't definitively say anything, I cannot predict alternate universes. However, these sorts of scenarios and decisions are the cornerstone of my training, education, and current career (albeit not in tabletop gaming). These are the kinds of decisions I make and report on every day. I don't feel uncomfortable venturing that the lack of maintenance on many lines is absolutely in part from the pressures of such a heavy investment in one range of products absolutely impacting resources available for others. They absolutely are limited, by factors like those I explained above. There's only so much product they can release in a set time span for a product range and not cannibalize sales, overburden consumer interest, or run out of shelf space. Yes they are expanding, but they've also abandoned, discarded, or left many things to decay, and have issues adequately maintaining their existing product lines. Just because a company can do other things doesn't mean they don't have limitations. Re-releasing Blood Bowl isn't competing for the same shelf space as 40k releases. Releasing a major AoS faction book a week after releasing a 40k Codex doesn't crowd sales the way releasing another 40k codex would. That's a big reason to have all those other different games. These are all very real factors at play. GW can't just go out and make 1000 new 40k factions and release them all even if they had the production and development capacity because there isn't the logistical network to support it or the market to absorb it, each of those factions has a cost to deploy and maintain, and GW has repeatedly chosen to allow lines to languish as Marines get multiple updates, refreshes, new factions, and expansions. That doesn't mean that they haven't added other new stuff too, or can't engage in different things, but there very much are bandwidth limits to the number of 40k releases GW can do within the lifespan of an edition with their current business model, and they have chosen to devote almost half that to Marines, and that is a very real limitation for other lines to have to work within.

Oh, yeah. Im going with projection as well.

 Argive wrote:


From a leyman. whats the difference between a deathwatch marine and a non black (in some case other black) marine apart from shoulder pad?

- they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus; there are no "rules" as yet to reflect this, but if you want a Marine force that's going to fight alongside the Inquisition, these guys and Grey Knights are a better fight (fluff wise) than any other Marine factions; if Eisenhorn or Draxus are your preferred Inquisitors, then DW are fluffier than anyone as Draxus and Eisenhorn are Ordo Xenos

- they all come from other chapters first. If you play Crusade, this can be reflected by faction specific Crusade content, provided that supplements actually get their own Crusade content; I'm not 100% sure they do yet, though I have been assuming.

- they have some weapons that others can't take; maxing out these options makes them look and feel different than other marines
- they have specialized ammo for many of their standard weapons, which makes them feel different
- they are the only faction that can use the Corvus Blackstar; it is the only vehicle I'm aware of that accommodates bike units, and it does that because it's a DW vehicle
- units can contain mixes of terminators, assault marines with or without jump packs and bikes (hence the Blackstar taking on bikes). This makes them particularly capable Combat Patrollers because they don't need room in the detachment for multiple units in order to accommodate many different model types

The other thing to keep in mind about DW is that they only got their dex in 8th, so there's potential for the faction to grow. Many will point out that SW, BA and DA have more unique gear, and of course they do- they've been growing for 8 editions. If we were having this conversation 6 months after the release of 3rd, the other snowflakes would not have the number of unique units that they do now, and the only reason we got here is that GW kept their fire lit, just like they should do with DW.

 Argive wrote:
...DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone"...

Depends on the Chapter. Some Chapters see it as their duty to send their best to the Deathwatch regularly, some see it as a dumping ground for problem Marines that don't play nice with others. There's a whole RPG about Deathwatch Marines from widely varying backgrounds coming together into cohesive teams of awesome people if you're interested in more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

We both know that's demonstrably false. It's quite easy to go over to the Forge World index thread and find folks quite upset about the deletion of several factions from earlier this week.

I'm attempting to use hyperbole here to draw attention to the fact that "I don't like this faction, maybe it should be nerfed/deleted whether or not anybody else likes it" threads tend to attract scorn despite the fact that that's exactly how GW treats the game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Argive wrote:
...DW seems like a bunch of rejects and failures being pushed into the meat grinder ala dirty dozen in order to "atone"...

Depends on the Chapter. Some Chapters see it as their duty to send their best to the Deathwatch regularly, some see it as a dumping ground for problem Marines that don't play nice with others. There's a whole RPG about Deathwatch Marines from widely varying backgrounds coming together into cohesive teams of awesome people if you're interested in more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

The problem is that the alternative to trying to make people submit to your personal edicts about how the game should be played is to submit to GW's edicts about how the game should be played. Everyone's happy to accept it when GW deletes factions for no reason.

We both know that's demonstrably false. It's quite easy to go over to the Forge World index thread and find folks quite upset about the deletion of several factions from earlier this week.

I'm attempting to use hyperbole here to draw attention to the fact that "I don't like this faction, maybe it should be nerfed/deleted whether or not anybody else likes it" threads tend to attract scorn despite the fact that that's exactly how GW treats the game.

I think I read some short stories around the PA .

I will undoubtedly get into some BL books about DW. There are a limited number of HH books. But im solidiering through those currently

Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.