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Yeah, Gravis don't have the same identity that terminators did, they just look like beefy primaris, and now they're IIRC in every slot, certainly enough to make an army of just them now that we've got silly giant-er tactical marines.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

What's wrong with Custodes?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

What's wrong with Custodes?

I personally love the models and their fluff, but I can see why both functionally and thematically they're not an army that makes a lot of sense in 40k. It's somewhat contradictory to have personal bodyguards that ensure the safety of the Emperor above all else suddenly be involved in the greater galactic upheaveal involving the Imperium. There's the in fluff excuse that this is taking the mandate of the Emperor's protection to the rest of the Imperium and being proactive, but all previous fluff largely contradicts this, even with recent ones like in the The Beast Arises series, where the Custodians do jack all when the Ork attack moon hovers over Terra. When Goge Vandire screws around, the Custodians don't even just go up and kill the guy when he turns the Imperium upside down, they get the Brides of the Emperor to do the job after presumably giving them an audience with the Emperor.

In terms of in-game mechanics, they're an example of GW's repeated problem of reducing design space by constantly introducing "elite of the elite" factions in the 40k army pool. I would argue part of the reason why marines have gotten so out of hand is partially because with the arms race of adding SM+1 factions like GK, DW and then Custodes after that all contribute to the dilution of SM being the elite faction, which is why they had to start leeching off other design concepts from other factions because their identity was basically copied and spread out across other elite Imperial factions.

 Grimskul wrote:

I personally love the models and their fluff, but I can see why both functionally and thematically they're not an army that makes a lot of sense in 40k. It's somewhat contradictory to have personal bodyguards that ensure the safety of the Emperor above all else suddenly be involved in the greater galactic upheaveal involving the Imperium. There's the in fluff excuse that this is taking the mandate of the Emperor's protection to the rest of the Imperium and being proactive, but all previous fluff largely contradicts this, even with recent ones like in the The Beast Arises series, where the Custodians do jack all when the Ork attack moon hovers over Terra. When Goge Vandire screws around, the Custodians don't even just go up and kill the guy when he turns the Imperium upside down, they get the Brides of the Emperor to do the job after presumably giving them an audience with the Emperor.

In terms of in-game mechanics, they're an example of GW's repeated problem of reducing design space by constantly introducing "elite of the elite" factions in the 40k army pool. I would argue part of the reason why marines have gotten so out of hand is partially because with the arms race of adding SM+1 factions like GK, DW and then Custodes after that all contribute to the dilution of SM being the elite faction, which is why they had to start leeching off other design concepts from other factions because their identity was basically copied and spread out across other elite Imperial factions.

I'm pretty sure the Custodes are now involved with the galactic war effort because Guilliman justifiably forced them into it because they'd spent the last ten thousand years largely doing nothing.

The second point doesn't really hold much water. Custodes, Death Watch, and Grey Knights being more elite and better man for man than even Marines doesn't suddenly necessitate making Marines more elite, that's backwards.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
...The second point doesn't really hold much water. Custodes, Death Watch, and Grey Knights being more elite and better man for man than even Marines doesn't suddenly necessitate making Marines more elite, that's backwards.

The problem Custodes (among other people) raise for the design space is that within the Imperium's statlines we need to handle Conscript < Guardsman < Veteran < Stormtrooper < Battle Sister < Celestian < SM Scout < Space Marine < Veteran Marine < Terminator < Gravis Marine < Veteran Gravis Marine < Custodian < Warden < Custodian Terminator < Centurion, which is an absurd stack of things that need to be slightly better than other things and leave effectively no room for fiddling with anything's statlines in any way or you step on someone else's toes/need to handle the knock-on effect of pushing everything else above/below up/down a step.

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

They've certainly become the army that epitomises having jumped the (frost)sharkwolf. Their heresy-era stuff is much, much more interesting IMO, and it doesn't take much to pull them back to that thematically.

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

Well when they were space Vikings they were cool, the problem was when someone at GW flanderised them into wolf wolf mcwolf face with a side of Santa sled.

Bjorn is cool, Ulrik cool, Raganar Cool

Santa sled I'm sorry but how did the LOLz idea make it to production.
8ft genetic warriors in battle plate who weighs about as much as a car riding a wolf into battle

Werewolf spacemarines as great an idea as Twilight

Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

 Duskweaver wrote:
Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

I agree, faction bashing has basicly become the ONLY thread type we see on dakka dakka these days.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


I'm pretty sure the Custodes are now involved with the galactic war effort because Guilliman justifiably forced them into it because they'd spent the last ten thousand years largely doing nothing.

The second point doesn't really hold much water. Custodes, Death Watch, and Grey Knights being more elite and better man for man than even Marines doesn't suddenly necessitate making Marines more elite, that's backwards.

I think there's an argument to be made that when a major selling point of space marines is how elite and superhuman and best of the best they are, having a faction that's essentially as elite next to SM's as those SM's are next to Guardsmen and sporting statlines approximating those of Daemon Princes of editions past, or where other variants of SM's are often portrayed as "SM's+1", that undercuts the inherent value proposition for SM's, and the increasingly large array of design space marines occupy appears to speak to such pressures on some level. We can also see this with stuff like Obliterators getting larger models and with enhanced stats over previous editions.

BrianDavion wrote:


lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

To be fair, they are silly and ridiculous, GW wrote official codex fluff of Space Wolves firing artillery...by smell, then breaking discipline and running their artillery platforms forward from safe firing positions into the front, just to watch the 'splosions for giggles, and gave us Canis Wolfborne of the Space Wolves, champion of Harald DeathWolf's Wolf Guard, AKA Growlthroat, AKA Fangrider, AKA Lord of the Wolfkin, who rides atop his monstrous ThunderWolf while wielding Wolfclaws and bearing a Wolftooth Necklace and a Wolf tail talisman and who could be accompanies by additional Fenrisian Wolves

That'd be fine if the Space Wolves didn't also want to be dark and brooding serious executioners, wild berzerkers, cunning tactical geniuses, unpredictable tricksters, pridefully belligerent individualists, disciplined troopers, big softies looking out for the little guy, pitiless supersoldiers, and often actual werewolves, all at the same time. It's trying to do all of the above (often directly contradictory) things that detract from the SW's, for me at least.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

Well if you’d read the whole thread it’s not about that. It’s ok to not like certain aspects of the game. But that’s just my opinion, man.

There was someone on here that was saying that they refuse to play certain factions but it’s clear that’s not what the start of this thread was about. Feel free to request this tread is closed down if you think it’s violating the rules of the forum.

Ice_can wrote:



Well when they were space Vikings they were cool, the problem was when someone at GW flanderised them into wolf wolf mcwolf face with a side of Santa sled.

Bjorn is cool, Ulrik cool, Raganar Cool

Santa sled I'm sorry but how did the LOLz idea make it to production.

Proably because the designer of the "sled" had a firmer grasp of the Norse then you do and thus was aware that in Norse mythology Thor had a flying chariot that was pulled by two goats, named Tanngrisnir (teethbearer /snarler)and Tanngnjóstr (teeth grinder)

In fact here's a heroclix mini of thor on his chariot



I think it's pretty clear that logan's chariot (and the codex calls it a chariot not a sled) is inspired by thor and his chariot.


So yeah, Logan Grimnar's mini is hardly as bad as it's detractors say that way. it's orgins are clear if you know the subject material

More importantly though I would say the way GW has handled the transition from 8th to 9th edition and the absolute joke that was CA2020 after the feet draging on addressing the broken rules that came out in the Marine 2.0 codex and suppliments that followed with New Marine's, more supliments and esentially confirmation that it's march or longer before the first choas or xeno faction codex of next year.

Yes I know Necrons got the second codex of 9th but the widespread belief is while it's a massive improvement than the dumpsterfire of their 8th edition codex, it's not quite on the level of Marines.

Deathguard get a codex in December assuming that still happens with lockdown 2.0 otherwise the schedule is going to slip even more after being in the last(?) Psychic Awakening book, this seems poorly planned.

None of these decisions seem to be driven by who actually needs a codex for game play reasons and instead is focus around shovelling more marines out the door.

Vaktathi wrote:That'd be fine if the Space Wolves didn't also want to be dark and brooding serious executioners, wild berzerkers, cunning tactical geniuses, unpredictable tricksters, pridefully belligerent individualists, disciplined troopers, big softies looking out for the little guy, pitiless supersoldiers, and often actual werewolves, all at the same time. It's trying to do all of the above (often directly contradictory) things that detract from the SW's, for me at least.

Yeah, this is the biggest sticking point on SW fluff for me.
They try and be too many things (often contradicting) at the same time - especially notable are the "we're frenzied berzerkers who charge in for the thrill of it"/"oh actually, we're cunning thinkers who just act like berzerkers to confuse our enemy" and the "we're the Emprah's Executionerz, MERCILESS!!"/"aw, poor guardsmen! we could never execute you!"

It honestly just sounds like Space Wolves are just written to be "whatever sounds cool and edgy".

But I don't want to squat them. Refusing to play them on principle of existing, and telling people that you want to delete their faction entirely is just childish. They're fine existing. Do they need a whole *Codex* to reflect that? I think not, but that's another topic repeated elsewhere.

BrianDavion wrote:



I think it's pretty clear that logan's chariot (and the codex calls it a chariot not a sled) is inspired by thor and his chariot.


So yeah, Logan Grimnar's mini is hardly as bad as it's detractors say that way. it's orgins are clear if you know the subject material

In all fairness, just because something is based on or inspired by something else doesn't mean it can't still be flanderized or silly. Tying one end of of a rope around a goat and the other end to one's unmentionables and playing a game of tug-o-war is also straight out of Norse mythology, but I'm not sure there's a good way to translate that into a 40k Lukas the Trickster mini and not have it be ridiculous.

i think the separate book selling, and therefore counting DW as a chapter instead of an institution in lieu heavily attached to the inquisition, is what is kinda the issue?
It's in many ways the same for Asassins and GK


Personally, if one would want to , one could put all the existing lists together with some inquisition specifics and asassins and make a great and interestingly customizable inquisitorial book.

Could even go so far as make mono DW and GK within work with separate boni compared to a "inquisitorial taskforce" which could work diffrently and draw from all 3 -4 sources for units.

however as a concept they are not worse then GK the "other" ultra specific chapter with 1 job.
And no i don't feel neither are a bad idea, however i'd also like it if they were more closely tieable to inquisition.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:



Well when they were space Vikings they were cool, the problem was when someone at GW flanderised them into wolf wolf mcwolf face with a side of Santa sled.

Bjorn is cool, Ulrik cool, Raganar Cool

Santa sled I'm sorry but how did the LOLz idea make it to production.

I think it's pretty clear that logan's chariot (and the codex calls it a chariot not a sled) is inspired by thor and his chariot.

So yeah, Logan Grimnar's mini is hardly as bad as it's detractors say that way. it's orgins are clear if you know the subject material

I'm not talking about it's origins, I'm talking about the fact to even get on the dang chariot sled whatever the first step is a waist hight of a model in terminator armour, fairly sure jumping around like a gymnast in terminator armour isnt cannon.
His axe is way to short to have a viable reach.

Also why is Logan Grimnar =Thor if any spaceworld should =Thor it would have been Russ.

You also just ignoring the werewolf spacemarines and riding a wolf into battle while probably weight 2-4 times the wolfs own weight?

To be clear I like spacewolfs and don't want them to go anywhere but just have someone with some self restraint put incharge of their line instead of just going with the next rediculous idea.

In 2nd Ed space wolves were the top army and were universally perceived as cool. Since retuning to 40K last year I am suprised to see how much distaste there is for them. I haven’t looked into them much but they do seem to have moved from bad ass to gimmick. Where did it all go wrong?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Nothing is as bad an idea in terms of fit for the game as Custodes or Knights (both varieties). Get rid of those three armies then we can talk about axing others.

What's wrong with Custodes?

They kind of a took over the slot for elite marine armies and took over the model and rules support from those armies. And it is impossible to have a different marine army be good and elite, without making custodes look bad at the same time.

Same with knights. they are either and army that skews so hard that without tailoring normal armies can't beat them, or they are over costed because a regular points army beats them no matter what the knight player does, the way we have it right now. The models are fine, but the army functionality doesn't fit the core rules of 9th ed. Which is the reverse of custodes, which right now are ultra efficient, specialy if they go first.


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mrFickle wrote:
In 2nd Ed space wolves were the top army and were universally perceived as cool. Since retuning to 40K last year I am suprised to see how much distaste there is for them. I haven’t looked into them much but they do seem to have moved from bad ass to gimmick. Where did it all go wrong?

From the little expiriance I have, out of all the things I learned form 8th is that it seems like people hate all the armies they do not play, and don't realy care about the play quality of other armies, unless their close friend or family plays the army too. This was a big eye opener for me, because through out most of 8th ed I really believed that people do not think that way, but when the 2.0 marines droped it was all suddenly clear to me.

mrFickle wrote:
In 2nd Ed space wolves were the top army and were universally perceived as cool. Since retuning to 40K last year I am suprised to see how much distaste there is for them. I haven’t looked into them much but they do seem to have moved from bad ass to gimmick. Where did it all go wrong?

back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

No no. Everything in 40k is silly and ridiculous. No. Its everything about them starting with their first abusive codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, id rather let people know up front i hate their army, not THEM. If i have to play against them for some reason. If thats childish, so be it.

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

It would be a meme if it wasn't truly felt
I'd definitely throw SW and GK in the scrapheap before Deathwatch.

Tyel wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

It would be a meme if it wasn't truly felt
I'd definitely throw SW and GK in the scrapheap before Deathwatch.

I'd agree with that. DW are merely excessive in the scheme of things.

SecondTime wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

SecondTime wrote:
Even if you wished it, you can't make it happen, so it wouldn't matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

SecondTime wrote:

So refusing a game I don't want to play is punishing someone?

When you're doing it with the stated goal of punishing them for choosing a faction you want to delete from existence, yes it is.

I fething hate SW and I get them enough of them in a tournament style setting. Not playing a miserable game no one will enjoy is punishment?

lemme guess, you "hate space wolves" because you think they're "silly and rediculas"?

No no. Everything in 40k is silly and ridiculous. No. Its everything about them starting with their first abusive codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, id rather let people know up front i hate their army, not THEM. If i have to play against them for some reason. If thats childish, so be it.

ifg you hate an army because it was OP at some time or another are their any armies you like? LOL

Tyel wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

It would be a meme if it wasn't truly felt
I'd definitely throw SW and GK in the scrapheap before Deathwatch.

What is it you don’t like about them? Fluff? Rules? Concept? Models?

I said it started with that book, not ended. Probably the single most consistent annoyance with them is having superior rules because "wolf". It was probably 5th ed sw where i started to question why this army even exists. Because the opposite question was even worse: why do other marines exist if wolf is just better all the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Seems to me like starting a thread solely to bash other people's choice of army and claim their faction should be deleted from the game is blatant trolling/baiting and a pretty clear Rule 1 violation.

Also seems to me that bragging about refusing to play people because you think their army shouldn't exist is gakky, toxic behaviour that has no place in this hobby.

But that's just, like, my opinion man...

Its not bragging. Its just how i handle the situation. Most players never even know. I find another opponent or go home if im not up for it that day.

BrianDavion wrote:
back in 5th edition space wolves where one of the most powerful armies, they also get some over the top minis (over the top is classic 40k but some people have started to take 40k too seriously) so it became a meme to hate on them.

Over the top silly is highly subjective and, in its exaggeration, going to be even more about taste than regular things.

I can without hypocrisy or ahistoricity enjoy 40k's roots in hyperbolic pseudo-punk satire, and its movement to caricature of gothic stuff, and even find modern rationalized XXL marines boring, without liking SW mounts have proportions that look like they come from 1990 action figures even if they too are a product of exaggeration.

mrFickle wrote:
What is it you don’t like about them? Fluff? Rules? Concept? Models?

Everything really.
I found "vikings in spaaace" kind of dull in the 90s, and today the theme just seems to be a mess - as people have said. None of the SW specific models do anything for me.
GK are in a similar boat. I just don't think they should be a faction as they were made.
To my mind a Grey Knight should have remained a "Psychic Custodes" - with a faintly ludicrous borderline great daemon statline which is sort of how they were conceived of before.
Instead they were basically made "Imperial Thousand Sons yo, plus baby carriers". The fluff is weak, the model line dull. It just sucks.

Karol wrote:
They kind of a took over the slot for elite marine armies and took over the model and rules support from those armies. And it is impossible to have a different marine army be good and elite, without making custodes look bad at the same time.

I think that is more of a problem with the marines and their endless loyalist and traitor spawn ballooning out of their niche (such as it once was) and comsuming more and more of the available design space.

If you could go back in time a few editions and describe an army of multi-wound super marines with grav-rhinos you'd be describing custodes. Give it another edition or two and primaris will probably have jetbikes and psychic nulls...