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I was just reading about Angron, and how he ascended to become a Daemon Prince from a Primarch, and it's got me pondering.

Does it matter what a person was before they become a Daemon Prince, as to the strength or prowess of the Daemon Prince?

For examples sake - we can assess that to gain Khornes favour one has to kill a lot of people, and to worship him as you do so. So, what if, for example, there was a one-armed seria killer in a hive city who had been loose for years, and killed several people a day, in the name of the blood god. If he attracted Khorne's attention (who sees that his desires are only to kill in his name) and Khorne ascended him to Daemonhood, Presumably:

1: He would become strong, no matter how strong he was before
2: He would have 2 arms, despite only having one before

So, would Angron be any stronger than other daemon princes just because he was a primarch, or would his strength be a sole result of the favour of Khorne?

Interesting question! I suppose I've always thought that the base strength of the person does make a difference... look at the difference between Mortarion/Magnus and a normal Daemon Prince, for example.
With that said, Daemon Princes generally being "equal" in power has only ever been a rules necessity, as always these things are up to the fickle nature of the Chaos Gods. Khorne is admittedly less likely to do this, but let's say if a god like Tzeentch wanted, he could quite happily make freshly-minted accountant Prince J'oeh-bloggz twice as powerful as long-time veteran bodybuilder weightlifter Prince Shch'warzen-Ega.

...I guess what I'm trying to say is...

My suspicion is that it's more of a correlation than a cause - a strong, skilled warrior is more likely to ascend to daemonhood than larry the one-armed stabber. So the strong tend to ascend to daemonhood because their strength helps them to do so. I also feel, as a gut feeling, that it's only really their mind which goes over to the daemon and they leave their mortal bodies behind, so if Larry did stab enough people then he might be recognized by ascending to daemonhood. Whilst his previous life didn't lend itself to wholesale genocide (him not being a space marine with access to gens to cide), Larry killing several thousand people single-handedly and evoking khorne every time might get him noticed. Khorne might see that larrys bloodlust in a daemon body with access to enemies would be very effective.

I guess it's along the same lines that dumb people don't ascend to tzeench princes, boring people don't ascend to slaanesh princes, and clean people don't ascend to become nurgle ones.

Well theoretically a normal space marine can become a prince daemon, if he prove to be worthy of that reward to his God and a primarch daemon can lost his daemonhood (and his life), if his God thinks the primarch is unworthy. So yes, be a primarch can help, but I think also enjoy the favour of a Chaos God plays a great role in the level of power the primarch daemon can reach.

If Angron turned into a chaos spawn, would he have become a bigger and badder spawn then any other?

 Nerak wrote:
If Angron turned into a chaos spawn, would he have become a bigger and badder spawn then any other?

spawn and daemon prince are not necessarily as far appart as some think, atleast in fantasy there's the bigger chaosspawn of nurgle that could grow and was also immortal.
Also the first DP's are all significantly stronger then other followers of their respective god, considering doombreed f.e.

I think all daemon princes are powerful enough that their power as mortals is largely irrelevant.

Also, it's important to remember that Chaos is in constant flux, and that what you see in terms of models, rules and artwork is an oversimplification because no two daemons are alike and even one daemon may not always look the same. As I understand it, a daemon is not a flesh-and-blood being, but an extension of its patron god's will, and its physical form is merely a temporary manifestation of that will. Perhaps the power they take with them when summoned in realspace is dependent on factors such as how badly the patron deity wants this battle to be won, how high in his god's favor the daemon currently is, how strong are the currents of Chaos in that area (e.g. stronger near the Eye of Terror and the Cicatrix Maledictum but weaker on a shrine-world), and so on.

-Guardsman- wrote:
I think all daemon princes are powerful enough that their power as mortals is largely irrelevant.

Also, it's important to remember that Chaos is in constant flux, and that what you see in terms of models, rules and artwork is an oversimplification because no two daemons are alike and even one daemon may not always look the same. As I understand it, a daemon is not a flesh-and-blood being, but an extension of its patron god's will, and its physical form is merely a temporary manifestation of that will. Perhaps the power they take with them when summoned in realspace is dependent on factors such as how badly the patron deity wants this battle to be won, how high in his god's favor the daemon currently is, how strong are the currents of Chaos in that area (e.g. stronger near the Eye of Terror and the Cicatrix Maledictum but weaker on a shrine-world), and so on.

I like that. It gives a good reason as to why 5th ed bloodletters look so different than modern bloodletters. It's almost like an evolution of Khorne, how he used to also represent martial "honour" in a way where as now he's just all about blood and skulls. The daemons reflect that. Older beastman-looking bloodletters look more like warriors while current bloodletters look like crazy, chaotic murderers

Yes. Your base stats are indeed factored into your daemon prince stats.
We've had rules for this.

Sadly/happily possessed (and daemon weapons) have been heavily nerfed. (Possessed used to be an average of the two models' stats, and daemon weapons gave you +1 to hit for each attack the daemon had, auto-killed on any wound and gave 1/3 of the dead models Strength to the bearer)


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Older beastman-looking bloodletters look more like warriors while current bloodletters look like crazy, chaotic murderers

Well...
The current bloodletters are updates of the original models.
The overlook is largely the same (though the anatomy of the original metal models was more snakey and bendy), but both have elongated heads, curved spines, claws and horns.

They just skipped the axe-wielding beastmen style bloodletters when they went to plastic. Much like they dropped the 'giant claw' and 'pointy claw' daemonettes and went back to the original models.

Fluff has shown that daemon princes tend to be twisted mirrors of who they were as mortals, sometimes physically, sometimes psychologically, sometimes both. Mortarion essentially morphed into the disgusting, musty being that he always presented himself, while Angron's inner rage became physically manifest. Marbas, the Fallen Angel prince, has the head of a lion. Phokulozortis has multiple heads, probably to represent the way he uses deceit to trick those who deal with Chaos carelessly. Perturabo is considered to be the biggest obliterator ever while Lorgar is literally on fire due to his passion for Chaos. Everything about a daemon prince's self is enhanced and honed to fit their patron(s). Could one of the gods make a daemon prince stronger than Angron or more sorcerous than Magnus? Yes, but that would probably be pointless. Instead, the various gifts that that one individual had would instead be amplified and the inner self would be realized in daemonic form.

Yes it matters. How much is very variable on the path you have taken to daemonhood. In the old (good) rules when generating a daemon prince you started of from specific stat line.

Daemon princes definitely vary considerably in power. IMO a better question is to what degree they can keep earning boons and keep getting stronger AFTER they ascend.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Daemon princes definitely vary considerably in power. IMO a better question is to what degree they can keep earning boons and keep getting stronger AFTER they ascend.

the Realm of Chaos books say the definition of a daemon prince is that they don’t grow. When a mortal ascends to the warp they can go one of two ways. They can become a daemon prince who binds together the power from the event that ascended them and keeps a permanent existence but doesn’t fluctuate in power. They’ll be a permanent memory of that one set of events that caused ascension.

The other possibility is that they can count on whatever act made them ascend will be followed by many other similar acts, and they’ll be able to draw those events into themselves and foster them to keep happening in the real world, and this is what it would mean to be a greater daemon or a minor warp power. The most likely outcome is that the ascended power isn’t able to keep drawing energy from similar events, either because they don’t happen or they’re claimed by a stronger warp power. So the new daemon instead weakens and ultimately dissipates into the current of the warp.

The warp gods and greater daemons are self aware vortices of energy. A god bestowing power on a servant is the same as the biggest warp storms allowing some of the disturbances that would normally feed it to contribute to a more specialized warp vortex instead.

Primarchs were kinda warp-powered to begin with so if they made for extra good prince material it's probably because of that. Plus since they were in command of a giant military force that basically worshipped them they received a lot of favour for their services.

I think Daemonhood fluctuates.

If we look at Syll'Esske, Esske was definitely a "stronger than your average bear" warrior (what with him besting a bunch of Khorne Daemons in CC before his ascension, something a single Guardsman or even a single Space Marine is not necessarily capable of).

But the strength of his "princehood" comes from the love (and Slaanesh-gifted symbiosis) between himself and Syll. In his case, ascending to princehood was more like a wedding that worked on soul and mind as well as body rather than a simple Power Infusion 9001.

'Ascension' to Daemon Prince-hood is more like possession than a single soul somehow inverting itself. Basically your soul is scooped out, and a daemonic entity inserted.

Nurglitch wrote:
'Ascension' to Daemon Prince-hood is more like possession than a single soul somehow inverting itself. Basically your soul is scooped out, and a daemonic entity inserted.

Right, and in that sense I think it does matter who you are at the start - because the scooping out also effects the flesh as well as the soul.

It's been a while since I read it, but the first possessed (IIRC it was in First Heretic) sort of depended on the space marine frame being so much more resilient than a base human.

Nurglitch wrote:
'Ascension' to Daemon Prince-hood is more like possession than a single soul somehow inverting itself. Basically your soul is scooped out, and a daemonic entity inserted.

I'm pretty sure it's not that - the daemon primarchs are the same individuals they were before their turn to Chaos, except now with extra daemon powers. In fact, Fulgrim's entire daemonic ascension arc is that an external entity tried to do this to him but he fought back and triumphed.

Well, Princedom isn’t traditionally an immediate thing - though there are exceptions.

Going back to the Realm of Chaos books, they were an accumulation of gifts and mutations. Reach a critical mass of such, and you either devolve into a Spawn, or achieve Daemonhood.

The main trouble is that the Gods are insane, and see all such gifts as equal. You might get lucky and sprout useful things, like iron hard sinews and wings - or be blessed with a Silly Voice and Silly Walk (both genuine results on the original table).

 Esmer wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
'Ascension' to Daemon Prince-hood is more like possession than a single soul somehow inverting itself. Basically your soul is scooped out, and a daemonic entity inserted.

I'm pretty sure it's not that - the daemon primarchs are the same individuals they were before their turn to Chaos, except now with extra daemon powers. In fact, Fulgrim's entire daemonic ascension arc is that an external entity tried to do this to him but he fought back and triumphed.

Abnett's writing about the Daemon Prince M'Kar's daemonic essence hunting Oll Persson during the betrayal at Calth, Wraight writing about Mortarian's state in his throne room on the Plague Planet, Dembski-Bowden's description of Angron's ascension absorbing the souls of the Ruinstorm, etc.

Nurglitch wrote:

 Esmer wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
'Ascension' to Daemon Prince-hood is more like possession than a single soul somehow inverting itself. Basically your soul is scooped out, and a daemonic entity inserted.

I'm pretty sure it's not that - the daemon primarchs are the same individuals they were before their turn to Chaos, except now with extra daemon powers. In fact, Fulgrim's entire daemonic ascension arc is that an external entity tried to do this to him but he fought back and triumphed.

Abnett's writing about the Daemon Prince M'Kar's daemonic essence hunting Oll Persson during the betrayal at Calth, Wraight writing about Mortarian's state in his throne room on the Plague Planet, Dembski-Bowden's description of Angron's ascension absorbing the souls of the Ruinstorm, etc.

I'm not familiar with any of those really, but it's pretty clear from reading the POV chapters of Mortarion in Dark Imperium/Plague Wars that this is the same individual personality that was raised on Barbarus, became the Death Guard's Primarch, fought in the Great Crusade etc.
He even keeps the soul of his alien foster father from Barbarus around in a cage. At no point is it even implied that he has been switched out with a different entity.

Oh, well then, if you say so.

I think it depends on the ascender but also on the god that bestows power in them in that the god will have the ability to choose what powers they dish out.

Also there are levels of ascension I think. Lucius has been made immortal because he is favoured by the gods but he is not a prince. But this must be considered some kind of ascension or apotheosis as opposed to the the kind of random mutations caused by prolonged living in the eye of terror. Although I suspect all these thing are the result of chaotic forces present on the warp and warp rifts that proa oh are beyond the understanding of anyone other than the gods themselves