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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Hmm alright. It seems like GW is trying to push general CSM away from any of the old Legion specific options by over costing them so they can't compete with just terminators in the Elite slots. That said, do CSM Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators have the same rules changes and/or wargear options as their loyalist counterparts (with obvious factional exceptions such as Iron Halos and such, I mostly just mean weapons and their factional equivalents)?

I was thinking about making a Black Legion list so I could give Abby and the Council of Traitors strat a try. Seems like a neat thing to have 2 extra CP (one offset by the -1CP of Council strat) and 2 extra Warlord traits. Online sources suggest that it would even be possible to use Field Commander to grant yet another Warlord trait to 4th model. That would of course further offset Abby's +2CP, but hey, seems fine to me if there's an extra Warlord trait worth taking left.

Csm don't have any specific rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators. You can use the models, but it's just for looks. They have the same rules and options as all Chaos Terminators. But you can still use the models if you prefer them. I do.

That seems weird to me. The only difference I know if is the Cataphactii better save/lower movement trade off and some neat looking wargear options like the Plasma Blaster in the Tartartos picture. Given that these suits were actually more standard than the Indomitus pattern at the time of the HH, I feel like it actually would make more sense for CSM to have them than loyalists. In fact, you can actually see that to an extent with the CSM having the Reaper Autocannon which is the same weapon on the Tartaros terminators as well. I guess if I were to play them and I wanted a Plasma Blaster, I'd just use the stats and point cost from the loyalist book. It's not like there's ever been a real difference between the same guns in each faction anyway.

Interestingly, it is actually stated at times in the lore that CSM weapons are often superior to their loyalist counterparts due to a combination of older craftsmanship being superior, the weapons being superior patterns that are either lost or have been replaced with cheaper, less effective patterns for cost saving reasons, and the blessings of the warp greatly increasing their output. We rarely if every see any of that represented on the table top though. Who knows, maybe that'll change so GW can keep CSM on par with Primaris without buffing their stat line above First Born or letting CSM also have Primaris.

Ye,I agree, the Legions should have more of the Heresy pattern terminator suits than loyalists, but loyalist players tend to disagree. Expect a lot of "csm shouldn't have those, they can't maintain them" and other such arguments if you try to make that point.

But since the new loyalist codex, Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators are essentially just regular terminators with more weapons options. Cataphractii lost their 4++ and Tartaros move the same speed as regular terminators. In fact, Cataphractii and Tartaros have been merged into one datasheet: "Relic Terminators". And since Chaos Terminators already have far more weapons options than loyalists, it's pretty easy just to use the models as regular Chaos Terminators. If you really want rules for Cataphractii and Tartaros, you'll have to go with Death Guard and Thousand Sons respectively.

I would laugh the ass off anyone who suggested that loyalists are more likely to have ancient gear cus chaos can't maintain theirs. Did they forget that they can't even manufacture ~90% of their best stuff because they don't understand how it works, much less know how to make it? Did they forget that the war of attrition has destroyed gear on both sides that can't be replaced and that the sheer number of new marines and lesser gear being created by loyalists on a regular basis means mean it's actually more rare for loyalists to show one on the field instead of something newer? Did they forget that Warpsmiths are just a Techmarine improved by the powers of chaos? Did they forget that the powers of the warp can restore wounds and repair vehicles, much less fix a single gun? Did they forget that in the lore it has been stated multiple times that time passes differently in the warp and for some traitors the HH happened only a short time ago? There's so many reasons the idea that CSM can't have them because they're old and hard to find doesn't make any sense. Taking one look at the DG and TS terminators displaying a legions worth of exclusively these so called "impossible for them to maintain armors" shows how stupid that is. I'm sure when we get WE and EC terminators, they'll be an equally "rare" armor or one of the same. Just because the loyalists have only a few tucked away for chapter heroes doesn't mean chaos doesn't have a few legions worth hidden away or galivanting across the Eye. They must have forgotten that fully half of the legions turned and the legions are where all this old gear was prominent.

You'll have plenty to laugh at here on dakka then, because I've had those exact same arguments with loyalists players multiple times, over both the Heresy pattern terminator marks and the Heresy pattern vehicles, sometimes for whole threads. Also you forgot that the Legions stole a lot of STCs on their way to the Eye, and that the Dark Mechanicus can still manufacture a lot of Heresy Era tech. Glad to have you aboard.

And choas have slaves and a access to all sorts of stuff that the imperium has lost over the years. In one of the recent Fabius bile books the ancient ship he is on has a manufactorium which the Fulgrim clone uses to make himself armour and weapons fit for a primarch.

The idea that CSM haven’t maintained their gear is ridiculous, they are an organises army(ies) and have a much better understanding of warfare than modern loyalists. Many fought along side and learned from the emperor and their primarchs. This is why they are veterans of the long war.

I think the problem is GW haven’t really settled on how they want to present CSM and how to align that to what the players want. Some people want to run a traitor legion and some people want to run the demonic warp corrupted black legion that has been released and some people want something in between.

The fact that GW didn’t release plague marines, noise marines, beserkers and rubrics to be played as Black legion I think demonstrates the confusion. Those units/upgrade have existed as a small token for those that want to play DG, TS, WE or EC. Until the first 2 got thier own codex. Cos that’s the point isn’t it? Any renegade marine regardless of where they came from and which deity they worship can take the black and fight with abbadon. Yet at no point is this respresented by GW. Except in the fluff. All of these things are represented in the fluff but all you have access to for CSM is black legion.

TS and DG are different enough to that their armies wouldn’t be aligned much to BL CSM but other legions would be more so.

And on the point of CSM stealing STCs on the way to the eye of terror, when they make an EC codex I will be gutted if there are no jetbikes

Yeah, on top of everything already mentioned, the biggest point I didn't see is that chaos corruption has taken not just single marines of even just small patrols, but entire chapters at times. Look at the Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, there are many other chapters mentioned as having similarly fallen to chaos all at once, usually through a suicide mission like the Sabres foray into the Eye to clear themselves. This means that most, if not all, of the wargear that chapter had been maintaining and/or producing is now in the hands of chaos. Entire Forge Worlds have fallen or been sucked into the Eye. Though I can't recall it being specifically stated anywhere, it is in fact likely that chaos has access to more Manufactorums, more Forge Worlds, more STCs, more Archeotech, and more knowledge/know-how than the entire Imperium combined, with perhaps the exception of the Emperor's residual psyche as he was a (mad?) genius and how much of his mind remains in an intangible state is relatively unexplored to my knowledge. To be clear, when I say "chaos" I mean the forces of chaos, not the Dark Gods themselves. If you put Tzeentch in the equation, then the scale is forever in his favor. Can't exactly compare knowledge with the literal God of I-Knew-You-Would-Say-That.

 SergentSilver wrote:
Yeah, on top of everything already mentioned, the biggest point I didn't see is that chaos corruption has taken not just single marines of even just small patrols, but entire chapters at times. Look at the Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, there are many other chapters mentioned as having similarly fallen to chaos all at once, usually through a suicide mission like the Sabres foray into the Eye to clear themselves. This means that most, if not all, of the wargear that chapter had been maintaining and/or producing is now in the hands of chaos. Entire Forge Worlds have fallen or been sucked into the Eye. Though I can't recall it being specifically stated anywhere, it is in fact likely that chaos has access to more Manufactorums, more Forge Worlds, more STCs, more Archeotech, and more knowledge/know-how than the entire Imperium combined, with perhaps the exception of the Emperor's residual psyche as he was a (mad?) genius and how much of his mind remains in an intangible state is relatively unexplored to my knowledge. To be clear, when I say "chaos" I mean the forces of chaos, not the Dark Gods themselves. If you put Tzeentch in the equation, then the scale is forever in his favor. Can't exactly compare knowledge with the literal God of I-Knew-You-Would-Say-That.

Not sure about "more knowledge/know how than all the Imperium combined" but IA 13 details several forge worlds controlled by the Dark Mechanicus and mentions that they use Archeotech, so Heresy era tech shouldn't be a problem for them. It actually mentions that they can produce some of it, including things like Fellblades, though they need to use some salvaged parts for those.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Yeah, on top of everything already mentioned, the biggest point I didn't see is that chaos corruption has taken not just single marines of even just small patrols, but entire chapters at times. Look at the Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, there are many other chapters mentioned as having similarly fallen to chaos all at once, usually through a suicide mission like the Sabres foray into the Eye to clear themselves. This means that most, if not all, of the wargear that chapter had been maintaining and/or producing is now in the hands of chaos. Entire Forge Worlds have fallen or been sucked into the Eye. Though I can't recall it being specifically stated anywhere, it is in fact likely that chaos has access to more Manufactorums, more Forge Worlds, more STCs, more Archeotech, and more knowledge/know-how than the entire Imperium combined, with perhaps the exception of the Emperor's residual psyche as he was a (mad?) genius and how much of his mind remains in an intangible state is relatively unexplored to my knowledge. To be clear, when I say "chaos" I mean the forces of chaos, not the Dark Gods themselves. If you put Tzeentch in the equation, then the scale is forever in his favor. Can't exactly compare knowledge with the literal God of I-Knew-You-Would-Say-That.

Not sure about "more knowledge/know how than all the Imperium combined" but IA 13 details several forge worlds controlled by the Dark Mechanicus and mentions that they use Archeotech, so Heresy era tech shouldn't be a problem for them. It actually mentions that they can produce some of it, including things like Fellblades, though they need to use some salvaged parts for those.

Mmm fair enough. At the very least, chaos forces seem to have a better grasp of the old technology as they control a number of key worlds and still have a good amount of the original legions left alive. They even have had several Primarchs (or at least their body in the case of a certain possessed one) running around for the last 10k years. Tzeentch's daemon lords probably know a lot they aren't sharing, all things considered.

 SergentSilver wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 SergentSilver wrote:
Yeah, on top of everything already mentioned, the biggest point I didn't see is that chaos corruption has taken not just single marines of even just small patrols, but entire chapters at times. Look at the Crimson Sabres/Slaughter, there are many other chapters mentioned as having similarly fallen to chaos all at once, usually through a suicide mission like the Sabres foray into the Eye to clear themselves. This means that most, if not all, of the wargear that chapter had been maintaining and/or producing is now in the hands of chaos. Entire Forge Worlds have fallen or been sucked into the Eye. Though I can't recall it being specifically stated anywhere, it is in fact likely that chaos has access to more Manufactorums, more Forge Worlds, more STCs, more Archeotech, and more knowledge/know-how than the entire Imperium combined, with perhaps the exception of the Emperor's residual psyche as he was a (mad?) genius and how much of his mind remains in an intangible state is relatively unexplored to my knowledge. To be clear, when I say "chaos" I mean the forces of chaos, not the Dark Gods themselves. If you put Tzeentch in the equation, then the scale is forever in his favor. Can't exactly compare knowledge with the literal God of I-Knew-You-Would-Say-That.

Not sure about "more knowledge/know how than all the Imperium combined" but IA 13 details several forge worlds controlled by the Dark Mechanicus and mentions that they use Archeotech, so Heresy era tech shouldn't be a problem for them. It actually mentions that they can produce some of it, including things like Fellblades, though they need to use some salvaged parts for those.

Mmm fair enough. At the very least, chaos forces seem to have a better grasp of the old technology as they control a number of key worlds and still have a good amount of the original legions left alive. They even have had several Primarchs (or at least their body in the case of a certain possessed one) running around for the last 10k years. Tzeentch's daemon lords probably know a lot they aren't sharing, all things considered.

Agreed, csm should have more access to Hersey era tech than loyalists, but, unfortunately, gw doesn't seem to agree. Loyalists get a greater selection of Heresy pattern units, and pay the same points +1CP for them as us, except in the case of Contemptors, where they get a codex version, for the exact same price, but without the 1CP surcharge.

Personally, I think having loyalists running around with all that fancy new Cawl tech, while The Legions use ancient relics of a bygone age, would be a great way to differentiate the two factions. But unfortunately, gw seems to think that the best thing for csm is just: "Daemon engines! Give them daemon engines!".

The fluff blurbs for crusade detail a chaos warband stealing bolt rifles from a bunch of intercessors.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo

the_scotsman wrote:
The fluff blurbs for crusade detail a chaos warband stealing bolt rifles from a bunch of intercessors.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo

i'd like stolen loylist toys if it remains an outlier....

but watch gw creat primaris traitors....

Half the imperium turned traitor with Horus and the whilst a lot of the traitors were cleared out in the scouring many retreated into the eye. It only stands to reason that CSM have access to 30k tech and the pint made about primarchs is key. Each primarch was programmed to be a technological genius.

I understand the focus on things like demon engines is an attempt to have something different for CSM but why not HH era tech but possessed with demons. This is how I have seen many forces of chaos depicted in books.

For example I like the venom crawlers, it’s a cool model. But at what point did this become a tactically designed solution that would be replicated on mass to fulfil a role in an army. Like a specific model of tank.

It still also denies the renegade element of the CSM forces

mrFickle wrote:Half the imperium turned traitor with Horus and the whilst a lot of the traitors were cleared out in the scouring many retreated into the eye. It only stands to reason that CSM have access to 30k tech and the pint made about primarchs is key. Each primarch was programmed to be a technological genius.

I understand the focus on things like demon engines is an attempt to have something different for CSM but why not HH era tech but possessed with demons. This is how I have seen many forces of chaos depicted in books.

For example I like the venom crawlers, it’s a cool model. But at what point did this become a tactically designed solution that would be replicated on mass to fulfil a role in an army. Like a specific model of tank.

It still also denies the renegade element of the CSM forces

The focus on daemon engines also just goes straight against the fluff of some Legions. Several times over the years gw has given us rules that deny Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords any marks, or none besides Undivided, but when it comes to vehicles they want us to use dragons and daemonic spiders? No.

Not Online!!! wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The fluff blurbs for crusade detail a chaos warband stealing bolt rifles from a bunch of intercessors.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo

i'd like stolen loylist toys if it remains an outlier....

but watch gw creat primaris traitors....

I'll take the guns, but NO PRIMARIS IN MY CHAOS SPACE MARINES!

Is the reaper auto cannon HH era tech or something made up for CSM?

The focus on daemon engines also just goes straight against the fluff of some Legions. Several times over the years gw has given us rules that deny Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords any marks, or none besides Undivided, but when it comes to vehicles they want us to use dragons and daemonic spiders? No.

Just convert a Predator and use it as "count as" Forgefiend (for example).

In the 3.5 CSM Codex, Night Lords also had access to Possessed, Obliterators and Daemon Prince and Pete Haines' recommendation was to simply convert the miniatures to represent Night Lords with special abilities.

GW focus on Warp stuff for CSM because for a long time they were simply "SM with spikes". That's all.

If you are unhappy with that, too bad.

Selfcontrol wrote:

The focus on daemon engines also just goes straight against the fluff of some Legions. Several times over the years gw has given us rules that deny Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords any marks, or none besides Undivided, but when it comes to vehicles they want us to use dragons and daemonic spiders? No.

Just convert a Predator and use it as "count as" Forgefiend (for example).

In the 3.5 CSM Codex, Night Lords also had access to Possessed, Obliterators and Daemon Prince and Pete Haines' recommendation was to simply convert the miniatures to represent Night Lords with special abilities.

GW focus on Warp stuff for CSM because for a long time they were simply "SM with spikes". That's all.

If you are unhappy with that, too bad.

Actually when CSM were first released in 2nd edition there main gimmick was the fact that their gear was same but different and older than modern SM. It was less realisable and CSM generally had worse stats for less points than SM. I don’t. Recall a focus on possessed marines or demon engines. The spikes were just a way to differentiate them but they were more renegade with dark souls than chaotic

The reason night lords etc have access to demon engines etc is because the CSM codex which was written for black legion is all that’s available because GW has paid lip service to most of the traitor legions as far as the game goes

I don’t. Recall a focus on possessed marines or demon engines.

Thak you for confirming what I just said.

mrFickle wrote:
Is the reaper auto cannon HH era tech or something made up for CSM?

According to the one in the Tartaros Terminators box, it is normal HH tech and 40k SM don't normally have it because they have switched over to the Assault Cannon, which is post-HH tech.

 SergentSilver wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I would personally wait a bit, as a new CSM codex is coming out next year, most likely with new rules (and hopefully, models) for Noise Marines.

Yeah, I'm just thinking about it right now, but I do plan to get some Noise Marines whether or not they get new models. I actually recently got a NoS squad of the previous sculpt, so if they don't get an updated model, I'll just order the parts to make them Noise Marines with SB/BM. Or I'll just get 3rd party not-Noise Marines. Or convert a squad of regular SM since the Noise Marine Upgrade kit still hasn't been updated to the new sculpt. I do have a lot of leftover CSM parts to kit bash. Basically just need the legs, torso back halves, and back packs with all the extra bits I have.

Edit: I should say this is more theory talk rather than a how-to-build-these-things. Also, when I say I will get the GW Noise Marine Upgrade kit to make them, I mean I'd get two of the kit to have both BM easily identifiable, but I'd just convert or counts-as the rest for SB after the two from the two kits. The kits are way too expensive to buy the necessary 8 to fill a 10-man squad, or worse 18 to make a 20-man squad. And if I did that I'd have an absolute ton of extra parts left over with no clear use. What would anyone do with an extra 16 BM?

You might want to look up the "Noise Marines Sonic Weapons" pack, dude - 5 SB & 1 BM for the same price as the Noise Marine Upgrade Kit. I can see it on the UK GW site, but haven't looked to see if it is up on the US one.

Out of curiosity do these GW sonic weapons actually fit the new CSM models? They're super ancient.

They'll probably be fine. Most of the scale inflation in Space Marine minis over the life of the game has been in the legs, the arms/torsos/heads/pauldrons/backpacks are mostly the same size. I haven't tried it myself and you might need to do a bit of shaving, but probably nothing too serious.

 Dysartes wrote:


You might want to look up the "Noise Marines Sonic Weapons" pack, dude - 5 SB & 1 BM for the same price as the Noise Marine Upgrade Kit. I can see it on the UK GW site, but haven't looked to see if it is up on the US one.

Thanks! I usually look for "Upgrade" or "Accessories" on GWs site when looking for such things as they seem to name most of them like that, so I didn't notice that set was still around.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:
Out of curiosity do these GW sonic weapons actually fit the new CSM models? They're super ancient.

No, but actually yes. Technically they can be made to fit, but have the same proportions as sticking a First Born arm on Primaris so it ends up looking a bit small. It's not a big enough difference to completely ruin the looks since the old style is Heroic Scale where the arms and weapons were a bit sized up. Also, since they are two handed weapons the spacing will be off for the arms as the new larger sculpts have somewhat thicker torsos, so some green stuff filler will be needed there to avoid wrist gaps and offset hands.

Selfcontrol wrote:

The focus on daemon engines also just goes straight against the fluff of some Legions. Several times over the years gw has given us rules that deny Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords any marks, or none besides Undivided, but when it comes to vehicles they want us to use dragons and daemonic spiders? No.

Just convert a Predator and use it as "count as" Forgefiend (for example).

In the 3.5 CSM Codex, Night Lords also had access to Possessed, Obliterators and Daemon Prince and Pete Haines' recommendation was to simply convert the miniatures to represent Night Lords with special abilities.

GW focus on Warp stuff for CSM because for a long time they were simply "SM with spikes". That's all.

If you are unhappy with that, too bad.

Just convert a Forgefiend and use it as a "count as" Predator, (for example).

In the 3.5 CSM codex, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters also had access to Predators, Land Raiders, and Dreadnoughts, and you could give them Daemonic Gifts from the Chaos Armoury to represent that they had been tainted and transformed by those Legions worship and dedication to the Chaos Gods.

Gw focus on Legion vehicles and weaponry for CSM because for a long time they were The Legions, ancient Veterans of The Long War, and that was best represented by giving them vehicles and equipment that would have been used by veterans of The Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. That's all.

If you are unhappy with that, too bad.

Oh boy, I hit a nerve

You do realize what you wrote is pure non sense because all the Legions you mentionned still have access to these units on top of having access to demonic units without any restriction because they are indeed heavily corrupted by Chaos ? (Also, in the lore, Iron Warriors make heavy use of Demon Engines and Obliterators)

I remember you mentionning that you use Cataphractii Terminators in place of Chaos Terminators. You are doing exactly what Pete Haines recommanded. Funny, isn't it ?

For the past 15 years GW has been trying really hard to differentiate CSM from SM by giving them a completely different aesthetic and gameplay/rules by doubling hard on the "chaos-warped-corrupted stuff".

We can use a more polite tone in this thread please.

ta,

 reds8n wrote:
We can use a more polite tone in this thread please.

ta,

My apologies. When I started a thread about Sonic Blasters, I never expected it deviate into a full on fight over CSM tech in-game vs fluff.

Part of me is happy to see a thread I started not die after a couple days though.