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I think nobs should be in the 3 wounds area with t5 str 5 - just a 4+ save though unless in mega armor. 3 - 10 man squads.

Pretty much skorpekh destroyers with different weapon options and less armor.

 Blackie wrote:
Troop option with T4 3W 4+ for 20-22ppm assuming they have free slugga & choppa.

Or course also Flash gitz and Meganobz would get their +1W, they're actual Nobz with a big weapon or a big armor.

Meganobz could get T5.

Please god no! lol. With all the multi-wound weapons being taken to deal with Primaris/gravis/NuMarines, Nobz at 20-22pts and 3wounds would be easy kills.

 Grimskul wrote:


It really does say something when a basic SM captain has more attacks and does more consistent damage than most of their Phoenix Lords, basically their equivalent of Chapter Masters.

Its the design space paradigm all over again. Anytime a faction is good at something, Marines somehow take over as being as good or better at it. Remember in 7th when orkz got the "Green Tide" formation. 10 units of boyz? Marines got Demi-Company so the more Marines they took the more free razorbacks they got. We had tournament lists with almost as many SM models as Orkz were bringing Boys. Tau firewarriors were good at gunline tactics, now Intercessors outperform them point for point, the list goes on and on.

At the moment, Ghaz is the biggest baddest ork in the entire galaxy. He starts with baseline 5 attacks. A SM Captain baseline has 4, a CM has 5 as well. So the leader of a faction is as good as a run of the mill Chapter Master. And I say Run of the mill because there are literally a THOUSAND Chapter Masters. There are SM characters with 5 attacks base and even more. I believe Dante has 6, Mephiston and the Sanguinor have 5 as well. The Raven Guard's CM has 6 attacks. The Space Wolves have a host of HQ selections with significantly more than 5 attacks base. The wolfkin dudes all have what amounts to 7 attacks, Logan Grimnar has basically 10 at lower strength or 5 at higher strength. Ragnar has 10 on the charge (Or being charged). Of course there is a difference in attacks because of what they hit on and what strength etc but the point being that a faction renowned for CC shouldn't have the same or FEWER attacks than run of the mill SM chapter masters and characters. The Blood angels one makes sense because they are themselves a CC oriented army but Ultrasmurfs? Come on now.

 Dysartes wrote:
If you weren't to touch anything about their current profile, where would you say the current "correct" cost is, in your eyes?

They don't have one because they lack a distinct purpose, just like burnas. That's the whole issue.

Once you make them cheap enough, they will just replace MANz because they are more durable per points.

 Dysartes wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I would like for Nobz to be come 3W with 3 attacks base and become troops. And become ork equivalent of Tyranid Warriors.

Again though, I don't really like that idea because it just adds another model to the 3 wound list and more importantly, I DO NOT trust GW to correctly price them at 3wounds, specifically because they haven't been correctly priced since the 4th edition codex.

If you weren't to touch anything about their current profile, where would you say the current "correct" cost is, in your eyes?

Depends honestly, are we factoring in SM's receiving a nerf or a cost increase soon? I say that because if we are using SM as a measuring stick than Nobz need to be around 13-15pts. If a SM has better armor, better BS, moves faster, basically immune to morale issues and is 18pts, I can't imagine a world where Nobz are anymore than 15ppm at the absolute most. nobz have a pistol compared to a Marine having again what amounts to a 2 shot range 24 bolter that sometimes has -1AP. The only real advantage nobz have over Marines is 3 attacks base compared to baseically 2 (most combats don't go past 1 full turn) and base strength 5 compared to Marines 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
If you weren't to touch anything about their current profile, where would you say the current "correct" cost is, in your eyes?

They don't have one because they lack a distinct purpose, just like burnas. That's the whole issue.

Once you make them cheap enough, they will just replace MANz because they are more durable per points.

And there is always this.

Remember that Ghaz attacks are S14 AP-4 D4 with WS 2+, that's pretty big, I doubt many named SM characters can top that. And on top of that his attacks go up with brackets (however with lower strangth) up to 7.

I don't think Nobz need to have super good stats with T5, 4+ or WS2+. My thought on it is that they should revamp the special weapons to make them better and deadlier (just like what they did with SM weapons) without increasing their point cost. That with some other quality of life changes and we'd have a cheap platform for deadly weapons with dedicated transport. The main problem I believe right now for nobz is that they're just ork boyz with one more wound and +1S (but at almost double the price).
A better emphasis on special weapons to kill marines and elites like power claws and big choppas would actually make them not fill the same role (but worse) than ork boyz.

In short, i'd rather they give them better rules than better stats.

Mr Raptor wrote:
Remember that Ghaz attacks are S14 AP-4 D4 with WS 2+, that's pretty big, I doubt many named SM characters can top that. And on top of that his attacks go up with brackets (however with lower strangth) up to 7.

I don't think Nobz need to have super good stats with T5, 4+ or WS2+. My thought on it is that they should revamp the special weapons to make them better and deadlier (just like what they did with SM weapons) without increasing their point cost. That with some other quality of life changes and we'd have a cheap platform for deadly weapons with dedicated transport. The main problem I believe right now for nobz is that they're just ork boyz with one more wound and +1S (but at almost double the price).
A better emphasis on special weapons to kill marines and elites like power claws and big choppas would actually make them not fill the same role (but worse) than ork boyz.

In short, i'd rather they give them better rules than better stats.

Agree, and I think this might not only help nobz, but also boyz. Turning the PK into a TH equivalent (3 damage, AP-2) would go a long way to make nobz and squad leaders a threat again.

If they were 3 wounds each, turn you could open up 2 wound scarboyz as another troop option.

That's just making nobz troops with extra steps

 Jidmah wrote:
That's just making nobz troops with extra steps

Well scarboyz have been an intermediate between Boyz and nobz forever, but they haven't really been represented much.

Marines get sliced into the most obscenely fine lines to get all these different units, it should be trivial for other armies to get even a 10th of that.

Scarboyz are currently trashing tournaments...

I liked the way you guys said "Troops with 3W". I really like how that sounds riding in a trukk.

Frankly giving them W3 wouldn't solve their problem. They'd just be more resilient to small caliber but still just as weak against multi wound weapons.
But in the end it would just make them ork boyz but bigger. It's not really very enticing, and ork boyz would still be better because they'd have more board control and immunity to multi-damage weapons (and much more attacks per points).

Frankly Orks should be able to use Adjacent infantry from the "Tier below" to give them bonus saves, a bit like grot shields.

Warboss > Meganobz > Nobz > Boyz > Gretchin

Having a squad of kitted out nobz throwin boyz into the way of dakka would be pretty thematic, and also give them extra survivability without treading on the toes of other factions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Scarboyz are currently trashing tournaments...

A single CP for a squad of half price 1W nobz? Count me in.

In any case, as we found out from the mehreeeeeen changes. 1W on a durable platform that has a plethora of rules buffing all phases and having the best troop weaponry in the game is worth only 3 points.

Nobz should only be +2 points from Boyz following that logic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
If you weren't to touch anything about their current profile, where would you say the current "correct" cost is, in your eyes?

They don't have one because they lack a distinct purpose, just like burnas. That's the whole issue.

Once you make them cheap enough, they will just replace MANz because they are more durable per points.

Burna's distinct purpose is being a joke HaHaaaaa

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Frankly Orks should be able to use Adjacent infantry from the "Tier below" to give them bonus saves, a bit like grot shields.

Warboss > Meganobz > Nobz > Boyz > Gretchin

Having a squad of kitted out nobz throwin boyz into the way of dakka would be pretty thematic, and also give them extra survivability without treading on the toes of other factions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
Scarboyz are currently trashing tournaments...

A single CP for a squad of half price 1W nobz? Count me in.

In any case, as we found out from the mehreeeeeen changes. 1W on a durable platform that has a plethora of rules buffing all phases and having the best troop weaponry in the game is worth only 3 points.

Nobz should only be +2 points from Boyz following that logic.

I think there's proably a "minimally agreed upon base price for 2 wound infantry" that I don't think any 2 infantry should go below (simply because at the end of the day it eaither takes 2 shots or a dedicated anti-heavy weapon to kill the unit) but I agree Ork Noz are, at 17 PPM heavily over priced. IMHO if Ork boyz are 8 PPM, Ork Nobz would proably work at around 14 PPM (maybe as low as 12, or as high as 15) a Nob is not worth two boyz.

Jesus I'd not looked at the price until now. 17 PPM to Boyz 8 PPM? that's rediculas

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Scarboyz are currently trashing tournaments...

A single CP for a squad of half price 1W nobz? Count me in.

In any case, as we found out from the mehreeeeeen changes. 1W on a durable platform that has a plethora of rules buffing all phases and having the best troop weaponry in the game is worth only 3 points.

Nobz should only be +2 points from Boyz following that logic.

I think there's proably a "minimally agreed upon base price for 2 wound infantry" that I don't think any 2 infantry should go below (simply because at the end of the day it eaither takes 2 shots or a dedicated anti-heavy weapon to kill the unit) but I agree Ork Noz are, at 17 PPM heavily over priced. IMHO if Ork boyz are 8 PPM, Ork Nobz would proably work at around 14 PPM (maybe as low as 12, or as high as 15) a Nob is not worth two boyz.

Jesus I'd not looked at the price until now. 17 PPM to Boyz 8 PPM? that's rediculas

Yeah, it's one of the many reasons a lot of us are salty about the recent changes.
It's a shame too. I really, really like Nobz but if you compare them to equiv specialist units like Vets they're pretty below average.
Not to mention the 4+ save...

I'll be honest though, Nobz were very very good back when they could carry 5 ammo runts for the free wounds.

Edit:
I actually have a squad of converted texan nobs with revolvers and killsaws, had a whole backstory for them too. They haven't come off the shelf in a while though =/

I think it is pointless to compare an individual unit to another unit from another faction, especially when they don't have the same role. Yes a firstborn marine is clearly superior to a Nob for about the same points (an actual gun with good BS, better save, doctrines, better leadership, troop slot, ect...) but it doesn't really matter.
What's important is what purpose they have in the army and how they synergize with it. Currently, the answer for nobz is "pretty poorly", because they get outperformed in almost every aspect by boyz, and the gaps that boyz leave can be filled by other much more reliable/cost-efficient units.

As nobz are now, they'd be fine as troops. But if they are to stay elite, they clearly need some help with their weapons/options to make it worth it.

On the other hands, I'm all for giving the meganobz T5, now that is justifiable for their price and role.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Scarboyz are currently trashing tournaments...

A single CP for a squad of half price 1W nobz? Count me in.

In any case, as we found out from the mehreeeeeen changes. 1W on a durable platform that has a plethora of rules buffing all phases and having the best troop weaponry in the game is worth only 3 points.

Nobz should only be +2 points from Boyz following that logic.

I think there's proably a "minimally agreed upon base price for 2 wound infantry" that I don't think any 2 infantry should go below (simply because at the end of the day it eaither takes 2 shots or a dedicated anti-heavy weapon to kill the unit) but I agree Ork Noz are, at 17 PPM heavily over priced. IMHO if Ork boyz are 8 PPM, Ork Nobz would proably work at around 14 PPM (maybe as low as 12, or as high as 15) a Nob is not worth two boyz.

Jesus I'd not looked at the price until now. 17 PPM to Boyz 8 PPM? that's rediculas

Yeah, it's one of the many reasons a lot of us are salty about the recent changes.
It's a shame too. I really, really like Nobz but if you compare them to equiv specialist units like Vets they're pretty below average.
Not to mention the 4+ save...

I'll be honest though, Nobz were very very good back when they could carry 5 ammo runts for the free wounds.

Edit:
I actually have a squad of converted texan nobs with revolvers and killsaws, had a whole backstory for them too. They haven't come off the shelf in a while though =/

I mean, in a hypothetical world where a unit has twice the wounds, twice the armor save and twice the firepower of another uni, I don't think it's worth twice the points even, sure logicly you'd think it might be, but 2 wounds has added vunerability to multi-wound weapons. etc. added wounds are thus, proably something with diminishing returns in terms of value

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Frankly giving them W3 wouldn't solve their problem. They'd just be more resilient to small caliber but still just as weak against multi wound weapons.
But in the end it would just make them ork boyz but bigger. It's not really very enticing, and ork boyz would still be better because they'd have more board control and immunity to multi-damage weapons (and much more attacks per points).

???? Going from 2w to 3w is a GREAT change agaisnt multiwound weapons. You can spam 2damage. You cannot spam 3 damage. Going from 2 to 3 wounds makes a unit double resilient agaisnt any 2 damage weapon in the game, and much better agaisnt damage 1d3 weapons.

Having nobz be Ork Boyz but bigger with more access to weapon options is ... what they are? You have your boyz for anti horde clearing and your nobz for anti elite/vehicle clearing both as troops, and allowing for elite ork armies. They are like space marine veterans.





If you think theres a need of a minimun price for 2 wound infantry wait until you see Adeptus Mechanicus horse riders or Krieg Death Riders. The only reason the first ones aren't trashing tournaments is because just how expensive they are. And you had adeptus mechanicum players having the balls to claim they were meh. 16 points for fething 3 wound models, and now the same for 3 wound T4 FNP5+ krieg models.

The value of wounds is actually a really weird thing.

Let's say the first wound has the value N
The second wound's value is less than N
The third wound is less valuable than N but more valuable than the second one, because 2D is now bad against you.
The fourth is slightly more valuable as the third one, because of the interaction with 3 damage attacks.
The fifth and sixth ones are less valuable than the second one, they really don't change anything about your model.
The seventh one is valuable again because it puts you out of d6 range
8th-9th is like 5th and 6th.
Wound number 10 is actually less valuable than all that come before them, because it takes away character protection and makes you degrade.
The least valuable one is actually the 18th wound because it takes away dense and obscuring terrain. Any model with 18 or 19 wounds would be better if they had 17 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Frankly giving them W3 wouldn't solve their problem. They'd just be more resilient to small caliber but still just as weak against multi wound weapons.
But in the end it would just make them ork boyz but bigger. It's not really very enticing, and ork boyz would still be better because they'd have more board control and immunity to multi-damage weapons (and much more attacks per points).

???? Going from 2w to 3w is a GREAT change agaisnt multiwound weapons. You can spam 2damage. You cannot spam 3 damage. Going from 2 to 3 wounds makes a unit double resilient agaisnt any 2 damage weapon in the game, and much better agaisnt damage 1d3 weapons.

Yes, but as he said, that's not the problem with nobz, so it wouldn't change anything.

 Jidmah wrote:
The value of wounds is actually a really weird thing.

Let's say the first wound has the value N
The second wound's value is less than N
The third wound is less valuable than N but more valuable than the second one, because 2D is now bad against you.
The fourth is slightly more valuable as the third one, because of the interaction with 3 damage attacks.
The fifth and sixth ones are less valuable than the second one, they really don't change anything about your model.
The seventh one is valuable again because it puts you out of d6 range
8th-9th is like 5th and 6th.
Wound number 10 is actually less valuable than all that come before them, because it takes away character protection and makes you degrade.
The least valuable one is actually the 18th wound because it takes away dense and obscuring terrain. Any model with 18 or 19 wounds would be better if they had 17 wounds.

then there's also the fact that a second wound is more or less valuable depending on toughness armor and over all firepower of the unit etc. there's so many interlocking elements of the rules that honestly developing a formula for points costs would proably be tricky.

A sufficiently complex formula is indistinguishable from chaos

 Mr Raptor wrote:
Frankly giving them W3 wouldn't solve their problem. They'd just be more resilient to small caliber but still just as weak against multi wound weapons.
But in the end it would just make them ork boyz but bigger. It's not really very enticing, and ork boyz would still be better because they'd have more board control and immunity to multi-damage weapons (and much more attacks per points).

Excuse my naivety here but isn't any gain in durability an improvement? If your nobz are being offed by heavy weapons then surely those heavy weapons aren't firing at their intended targets.

Giving them more expensive/better options only makes shooting them with heavy weapons make more sense. 3 wounds is the sweet spot for the bulk of weapons hurting them without killing a model with each shot short of dedicated anti-vehicle.

Combine 3w with slightly improved weapon profiles and you have a winner. I personally prefer the idea of them as troops rather than a not-quite-glass-melee-cannon.

It's an improvement, but not one that makes them viable, a change would have to enable them to do something that can't be done by another unit. At best nobz would simply push one of those units out, and we'd be having the same discussion over MANz or kommandoz or gretchin.

Most changes that affect nobz would affect Meganobz as well. If they go to W3, so will they, if they go to T5, so will they. Meganobz are in a decent spot right now because they are deadly and tough. While nobz, who are in the same slot, aren't.

Then following your arguments either manz or nobz needs to get the cut, there isn't much more you can do to 1 without upsetting the other by definition.

 Blackie wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Am I the only person who thinks making Nobz Troops is a horrible idea? Completely contradicts like 30-odd years of lore. Boyz have always been the core of an Ork army.

They were already troops in 5th and it was probably the best edition ever for orks.

They were not Troops in 5th. A single squad per Warboss HQ took could be a Troop choice, so if you took a pair of Warbosses your compulsory Troop slots could be filled with Nobz of any variety. They were not Troops by default.

Dudeface wrote:
Then following your arguments either manz or nobz needs to get the cut, there isn't much more you can do to 1 without upsetting the other by definition.

And yet Intercessors and Tacs exist in the same space The simple solution would be to make meganobz tankier than regular nobz. and a 2+ isn't making them tankier, especially in a meta where melta is the new weapon of choice. Kind of how Heavy intercessors are just tankier intercessors with better long range guns. And before anyone gets upset, I am not remotely talking about the utility/competitiveness of Heavy Intercessors, just pointing out that differences between similar units can exist.

Nobz in general have sucked since the end of the 4th edition codex, the only reason they were good in 4-6th was because of wound pool shenanigans. IE you had 10 nobz with a total of 20 wounds. The unit's firepower/melee power didn't diminish until you inflicted the 11th wound. Same thing for Nob bikers, the unit itself wasn't particularly good, but with wound pool shenanigans they were amazing. So, how do Nobz get back to that point? Well, you could give them ablative wounds in the form of ammo runts or a mechanic that lets them throw lesser models (boyz/grotz) into the Line of Fire to take a wound for them, or you could price them low enough to make them spammable to the point where losing a whole unit isn't game over. At their current price point they are utter garbage. And finally, they need to be able to actually inflict damage when they get into combat. 3 attacks base sounds great, especially at S5, but against a Marine defensive statline (T4 3+ save) a nob is averaging .59 wounds a turn, that is including the +1 attack for using a choppa. In return that Marine is averaging .5 wounds on the first turn and .33 every turn thereafter.

Maybe give Nobz a middle ground weapon between Choppa's and big choppas as a standard load out. Heavy Choppa +1 attack, -1AP 2dmg and upgrade the Big choppa to give +1 attack as well so you are paying 5pts for a BC to get the +2 strength.

SemperMortis wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then following your arguments either manz or nobz needs to get the cut, there isn't much more you can do to 1 without upsetting the other by definition.

And yet Intercessors and Tacs exist in the same space The simple solution would be to make meganobz tankier than regular nobz. and a 2+ isn't making them tankier, especially in a meta where melta is the new weapon of choice. Kind of how Heavy intercessors are just tankier intercessors with better long range guns. And before anyone gets upset, I am not remotely talking about the utility/competitiveness of Heavy Intercessors, just pointing out that differences between similar units can exist.

Nobz in general have sucked since the end of the 4th edition codex, the only reason they were good in 4-6th was because of wound pool shenanigans. IE you had 10 nobz with a total of 20 wounds. The unit's firepower/melee power didn't diminish until you inflicted the 11th wound. Same thing for Nob bikers, the unit itself wasn't particularly good, but with wound pool shenanigans they were amazing. So, how do Nobz get back to that point? Well, you could give them ablative wounds in the form of ammo runts or a mechanic that lets them throw lesser models (boyz/grotz) into the Line of Fire to take a wound for them, or you could price them low enough to make them spammable to the point where losing a whole unit isn't game over. At their current price point they are utter garbage. And finally, they need to be able to actually inflict damage when they get into combat. 3 attacks base sounds great, especially at S5, but against a Marine defensive statline (T4 3+ save) a nob is averaging .59 wounds a turn, that is including the +1 attack for using a choppa. In return that Marine is averaging .5 wounds on the first turn and .33 every turn thereafter.

Maybe give Nobz a middle ground weapon between Choppa's and big choppas as a standard load out. Heavy Choppa +1 attack, -1AP 2dmg and upgrade the Big choppa to give +1 attack as well so you are paying 5pts for a BC to get the +2 strength.

I'd argue tacs and intercessors shouldn't, happy to see a move to primaris only. Saying that tacs have broader load out options at least.

Would giving meganobz a 2+/5+++ (note not invuln) base with t5 and an extra wound with no increase to melee firepower give them the niche of durable while leaving space for nobz to be the killy unit?

Dudeface wrote:


I'd argue tacs and intercessors shouldn't, happy to see a move to primaris only. Saying that tacs have broader load out options at least.

Would giving meganobz a 2+/5+++ (note not invuln) base with t5 and an extra wound with no increase to melee firepower give them the niche of durable while leaving space for nobz to be the killy unit?

Not especially. The biggest threat to meganobz is anti-tank weaponry and the same things that target gravis marines. So going to 4W T5 with a 5+ FNP wouldn't really increase their durability by an appreciable amount, unless of course we are going to keep them roughly the same price, and I doubt that would happen. Against a multi-Melta weapon (likely the most common thing used against them in the future) its D6+2 most of the time. Currently its wounding on 2s, so 6 hits = 5 wounds. against a 6+ armor save that is 4.16 unsaved wounds for guaranteed 4 dead Meganobz. If you increase T to 5 and give them an extra wound its 6 hits = 4 wounds = 3.33 unsaved wounds each one does D6+2 which averages 5.5dmg. which against a 5+FNP = 3.66 unsaved dmg. so again likely 3-4 dead Meganobz. Basically, in order for Meganobz to be "durable" they need an invuln save of some sort, preferably a 4+.

 Mr Raptor wrote:
I think it is pointless to compare an individual unit to another unit from another faction, especially when they don't have the same role. Yes a firstborn marine is clearly superior to a Nob for about the same points (an actual gun with good BS, better save, doctrines, better leadership, troop slot, ect...) but it doesn't really matter.

40k does not have the sublime balance that would make that a sensical approach. Cross-faction point comparisons are usually valid.