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The Tau are tiny. For every Tau world there are thousands of Imperial ones, for every Tau citizen there are millions of humans.

The Tau are playing a very different game than the IoM, a rising but ultimately irrelevant empire to an old and dying but still massive corpse of an empire.

Don’t forget there’s also Imperial Propaganda.

If a decent number of Imperial citizens knew just what sort of nasties were out there, the whole thing would go belly up.

Hence the Inquisition. A clandestine organisation with absolute authority to get the job done - who tend to prefer to investigate, and root it out where they find it. After all, culling a few hundred thousand citizens who might be infected, is a preferred option to having to repopulate a given planet (not that they shy away from that when necessary)

T'au have a lot of structural advantages over the Imperium that ranges from superior technology, controlled breeding due to their cast system, smaller size, heavy automatisation and extansive use of AI. Of course they don't suffer from the problems of a cleearly insane, decentralised, ultrareligious, immense human empire.

 Dysartes wrote:
The first Cain book also covers both Kroot detection of infection - taste test on corpses, not smell, and they don't seem to know much about Genestealers at the point the book is set (early 900.M41, from memory) - as well as the thing at the finale.

One of the other Cain books covers working with the Tau against the Tyranids, but I can't recall if there are further mentions of Genestealer infiltration one way or another in that one off the top of my head.

The first Cain book ends with Tau infected by Genestealers being given back to the Tau as Amberely hopes that a Hive Fleet will be drawn to them when the cult grow in the Empire rather than the Imperium - best to let two enemies fight each other.....

Hecaton wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
In a word, no. There's been multiple occasions in novels whereby once the infection is known, the Imperium initiates mass gene testing to weed them out. It's not a massively innovative piece of technlogy, Christ, we can do gene testing even today. It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

Sure, we have tests for that *today*, but the Imperium is hopelessly backwards with respect to technology and how to implement it. A Magos Biologis would rather jealously guard a method of gene testing than allow it to be deployed en masse to help people. In any case, I'm not familiar with these novels; surely you can cite them?

I read my way through the Ciaphas Cain series recently, and can confirm it comes up several times in them.
One such instance:

Duty Calls wrote:
Broklaw nodded. ‘You don’t know the half of it. We’ve got nearly a thousand refugees trapped in the terminal building,’ he said. ‘Evacuated from lower down.’
‘Most of them have been stuck there for days,’ Kasteen added, ‘waiting for genetic screening to weed out any hybrids among them, but the justicars have been a bit too busy to deal with that.’

Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Hecaton wrote:

Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

...you know screening someone's genetic material will flag the Genestealer dna presence, right? Whether I'm testing to see if you're 1/2, 1/4/ 1/8, or 1/32 Genestealer? In the same way if I merged you with a banana on a DNA level, the banana is going to show up.

Nah. The argument that the the Imperium, which is too incompetent to implement widespread testing for alien infection, is better than the Tau *because* they don't implement it is bogus.

See, there it is. The bit of the argument that you're mentally projecting onto the screen and imagining to argue with. So I'm going to be very very clear here.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE IMPERIUM ARE "BETTER" THAN TAU.* I am saying that genetic screening is not a rare technology, now, or in the imaginary 40Kverse, for Tau OR the Imperium. It's not a good hallmark of anything, anymore than both having painkillers is.

*asterisk to point out that "better" is such a ridiculous concept to bandying around here I can't believe I'm having to type that.

Maybe the "good reason" is genestealer cults.

Go back. Read my original comment, the one that you're projecting all over. You'll note that I said the following:-

It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

There's your answer. Please don't make me repost it again. Otherwise it's less a conversation and more shouting into the void.

Why would the reason be nefarious? It sounds like you're working from the premise that the Tau do everything for evil reasons, when we know that that is very much less true of them than it is for the Imperium.

Because almost* every conceivable real life reason which would apply to humans would be nefarious. As my last post said though (again), I could conceive of a biological reason being written in that would make it not nefarious for Tau specifically. But as of right now, no such reason exists in the fluff.

*note the almost. I can conceive of a scant handful of not nefarious reasons, but they're in the 'Some sort of recurring hyper-infectious genetic-warping virus' category and not commonplace/routine which is what we're discussing.

It isn't a particularly great accomplishment, no, but that doesn't reflect well on the Imperium's inability to do so.

Given that so far the conversation has gone. 'Well, who knows if they have it? Prove it!' [proof given] 'Well, it could be a rare technology!' [proof to contrary given]. Saying now, 'Well, they must be incapable of it' without any evidence in that direction isn't quite the smashing retort you hoped it was.

Seriously mate, I don't know what your beef with me is, but take a chill pill.

Is there even evidence the Tau screen their populations that much? after all Tau GSC are a thing. They may be rare, but the Tau themselves are rare at the galactic scale Tyranids operate, so we cannot even say they are proportionally rarer.

The codex is extremely explicit about all of this.

The Orks have proven troublesome as hosts, for they can sense a wrongness in those infected, something that disturbs the strange gestalt of the greenskin mind. The Kroot are much the same, though their avoidance of infected members of their society comes from their ability to taste pheromones, and the wisdom of the Shapers who guide their people's evolution. The Aeldari have such lengthy gestation cycles that they are simply not viable biological hosts; furthermore, their psychic abilities are so well developed they can often see the shadow of the curse even before it can manifest and avoid it accordingly. The T'au have a connection with their Ethereal caste that makes infection by the Genestealers difficult. Only Humanity, so manifold and unruly in its civilisations, has as yet provided an ideal host.

Arson Fire wrote:

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ketara wrote:
...you know screening someone's genetic material will flag the Genestealer dna presence, right? Whether I'm testing to see if you're 1/2, 1/4/ 1/8, or 1/32 Genestealer? In the same way if I merged you with a banana on a DNA level, the banana is going to show up.

You do know that not all the cells in your own body have the same DNA, right, due to somatic mutations? And in the setting, there's a difference between a Brood Brother and a hybrid.

 Ketara wrote:
See, there it is. The bit of the argument that you're mentally projecting onto the screen and imagining to argue with. So I'm going to be very very clear here.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE IMPERIUM ARE "BETTER" THAN TAU.* I am saying that genetic screening is not a rare technology, now, or in the imaginary 40Kverse, for Tau OR the Imperium. It's not a good hallmark of anything, anymore than both having painkillers is.

*asterisk to point out that "better" is such a ridiculous concept to bandying around here I can't believe I'm having to type that.

I mean, the Imperium is really bad at implementing basic technology on a lot of their worlds, due to a combination of poor infrastructure and a priest class that jealously controls the spread of technology.

 Ketara wrote:
Go back. Read my original comment, the one that you're projecting all over. You'll note that I said the following:-

It's more a case of 'Why would you routinely and securely scan the entire population for Genestealers when the Imperium is so big most people will never be within thirty systems of one?'.

There's your answer. Please don't make me repost it again. Otherwise it's less a conversation and more shouting into the void.

Well, the point is that the Imperium doesn't even do it in sectors where they know there's been GSC activity.

 Ketara wrote:

Because almost* every conceivable real life reason which would apply to humans would be nefarious. As my last post said though (again), I could conceive of a biological reason being written in that would make it not nefarious for Tau specifically. But as of right now, no such reason exists in the fluff.

Mind controlling alien infection (i.e. Genstealer's kiss) is a great reason.

 Ketara wrote:


Given that so far the conversation has gone. 'Well, who knows if they have it? Prove it!' [proof given] 'Well, it could be a rare technology!' [proof to contrary given]. Saying now, 'Well, they must be incapable of it' without any evidence in that direction isn't quite the smashing retort you hoped it was.

Seriously mate, I don't know what your beef with me is, but take a chill pill.

You haven't proven anything here. The Imperium is barely able to defend itself from cults like this because it's so technologically backwards and incompetent.

Hecaton wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells.

Well if genetic testing isn't good enough, then I guess the tau's much vaunted genetic testing wouldn't work either.
You can't have it both ways.

You were saying that the imperials wouldn't genetically screen populations. Then asked for references from novels that showed otherwise. I provided that.
Now you're saying that somehow this genetic testing is insufficient to detect genestealer genetic material, despite the novels themselves saying that it is?
Your goalposts are flying backwards here.

Hey, while we're here, have another. This is from a scene where the main character is stopped at a road block following a cult uprising, where they are testing everyone who goes past:

The Emperor's Finest wrote:
'Of course not,' the sergeant agreed, stepping forwards, a trifle nervously, with a portable auspex. 'But if you wouldn't mind indulging me, sir? I'm sure you wouldn't want us to neglect our orders.'
'By no means,' I agreed, reholstering my laspistol and climbing down to the roadway so he could take his genescan a little more easily. The unit beeped, and a rune flashed green, after which everyone looked a little more comfortable.

Apparently it doesn't even take a tech priest to do this testing. They'll hand out scanners to random guard sergeants.

I dunno what's going on, but there's at least 2 posters that have been going on an "Imperium is bad and you should feel bad" hate spree on any subject that is remotely based around that and I don't get the vitriol given that it's a fictional empire. Not to mention that most people agree that the Imperium is generally a bad place to live in within our IRL context, so I don't who they're preaching to.

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

Hecaton wrote:


Those are hybrids they're testing for, not brood brothers.

They're screening for anyone with genestealer dna. That's why they're using genetic screening, and not just looking for suspicious dudes with 3 arms and ridged foreheads.
'Hybrids' is just a convenient term they use covering both infected people (brood brothers), and individuals from later generations.

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells.

Well if genetic testing isn't good enough, then I guess the tau's much vaunted genetic testing wouldn't work either.
You can't have it both ways.

You were saying that the imperials wouldn't genetically screen populations. Then asked for references from novels that showed otherwise. I provided that.
Now you're saying that somehow this genetic testing is insufficient to detect genestealer genetic material, despite the novels themselves saying that it is?
Your goalposts are flying backwards here.

Hey, while we're here, have another. This is from a scene where the main character is stopped at a road block following a cult uprising, where they are testing everyone who goes past:

The Emperor's Finest wrote:
'Of course not,' the sergeant agreed, stepping forwards, a trifle nervously, with a portable auspex. 'But if you wouldn't mind indulging me, sir? I'm sure you wouldn't want us to neglect our orders.'
'By no means,' I agreed, reholstering my laspistol and climbing down to the roadway so he could take his genescan a little more easily. The unit beeped, and a rune flashed green, after which everyone looked a little more comfortable.

Apparently it doesn't even take a tech priest to do this testing. They'll hand out scanners to random guard sergeants.

I think you're managing to talk waaaaay past each other.

For the Imperial testing, that's in a setting where they know or suspect that there's an infestation, so they've set up testing checkpoints. But no one goes around doing routine gene testing on hivers. Hell, why'd anyone want to go down that far to do that?

For the Tau, gene testing has been described as common and routine monitoring. And that monitoring has also been described in stories as being subverted by having the infestation start with the part of the population responsible for doing the monitoring. If it doesn't start there (or reach that part quickly), then it'll get discovered.

So once you're fighting an uprising or have some reason to suspect there's an infestation on an Imperial world, you can test for it. But you get infestations in Imperial worlds because there's no reason to do routine testing in the lower ends of the hives.

Hecaton wrote:

Given that a "hybrid" is something specific, I think not. Brood Brothers wouldn't even necessarily have genetic markers of infection in their non-reproductive cells....You do know that not all the cells in your own body have the same DNA, right, due to somatic mutations? And in the setting, there's a difference between a Brood Brother and a hybrid.

This has been largely addressed above. Not to mention the very commonsense retort of 'If I'm checking for genestealer genetic activity, I'll be checking for it at whatever level is appropriate and wherever is appropriate'. The Imperium is vast, and your average medical professional has no idea what a Genestealer even is. So no, they're not going to spot them unless they're deliberately looking for them. But that's kinda been part of my point all along, y'know?

I mean, the Imperium is really bad at implementing basic technology on a lot of their worlds, due to a combination of poor infrastructure and a priest class that jealously controls the spread of technology.

#
Sure. Perhaps on a primitive death world where guns are high tech, medical scanners are rarer. But any place that has any degree of sophistication (aka, electricity, basic medicine, etc) doesn't seem to have a problem with it

Well, the point is that the Imperium doesn't even do it in sectors where they know there's been GSC activity.

I gave a reference and someone else has posted one below.
But tell you what. You've demanded proof. It's been provided. Shoe's on the other foot. PROVE to me, with sources (book series is good enough) that the Imperium does not, as a rule of thumb, ever test for Genestealers even when they know they're there.

Mind controlling alien infection (i.e. Genstealer's kiss) is a great reason.

Sure, but you just invented that being common enough to require routine genetic sampling of every Tau in their population. Unless you've got a link? Because so far, you're busy building your own stack of unsourced cards here in the name of being contrary. Prove to me (as you're declaring) that the reason the Tau routinely test their entire population is to check for genestealer taint.

You haven't proven anything here. The Imperium is barely able to defend itself from cults like this because it's so technologically backwards and incompetent.

....I haven't proven anything?| You keep demanding sources and getting them. Sticking your fingers in your ears because you don't want to hear them doesn't sound convincing to anyone.

 solkan wrote:

I think you're managing to talk waaaaay past each other.

For the Imperial testing, that's in a setting where they know or suspect that there's an infestation, so they've set up testing checkpoints. But no one goes around doing routine gene testing on hivers. Hell, why'd anyone want to go down that far to do that?

There's a spot of missing context there with regards to the above source, namely the timeline. In that particular story, the 'Stealers have quite recently been discovered. It takes time to set up infrastructure to test a large population systematically without missing anything (coronavirus has shown that extremely well recently!) They'd probably get to the hivers in the end once the Inquisition got involved. I do recall reading several instances (though I couldn't say where) of the Inquisition systematically vetting and testing entire populations for Chaos taints. There's no reason that they couldn't do the same for 'Stealers if they can do it for Chaos (it's been proven the tech is available).

For the Tau, gene testing has been described as common and routine monitoring. And that monitoring has also been described in stories as being subverted by having the infestation start with the part of the population responsible for doing the monitoring. If it doesn't start there (or reach that part quickly), then it'll get discovered.

So once you're fighting an uprising or have some reason to suspect there's an infestation on an Imperial world, you can test for it. But you get infestations in Imperial worlds because there's no reason to do routine testing in the lower ends of the hives.

This however, I've been saying all along. The Imperium doesn't test routinely, because without confirmed Stealer activity, there's no need to go to the sort of logistical effort required. So sure, I completely agree.

Other problem with genetic screening?

How many humans are there, right now living on Earth?

If you Google it, you’ll find a number. But, it’s only a (admittedly well informed) guess. Because there’s no global census. And even national censuses rely on honesty.

In a given Hive, there toil untold billions of Citizens. How does one go about genetic screening in such a situation? Especially when fear of the mutant is rampant? How do you round them all up?

GSC are sneaky. They typically take their time, and show caution until they’ve secured influence and positions in the upper echelons of whatever power structure exists on their world. Their whole game is to not tip their hand until they’re ready - even when attacked, they only fully commit when it’s that, or face extinction.

So by the time there’s enough activity to be spotted? Genetic Screening isn’t really going to help. They’ll either dig in and hide, or be in a position to corrupt the results etc.

Now, genetic screening can be useful in very specific situations, such as where a cult is discovered and its leaders slain. They’ll be in enough disarray to not get their stuff together. And one can then screen the rest of the populace. Provided of course, it’s not a Forge or Hive World!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Other problem with genetic screening?

How many humans are there, right now living on Earth?

If you Google it, you’ll find a number. But, it’s only a (admittedly well informed) guess. Because there’s no global census. And even national censuses rely on honesty.

In a given Hive, there toil untold billions of Citizens. How does one go about genetic screening in such a situation? Especially when fear of the mutant is rampant? How do you round them all up?

GSC are sneaky. They typically take their time, and show caution until they’ve secured influence and positions in the upper echelons of whatever power structure exists on their world. Their whole game is to not tip their hand until they’re ready - even when attacked, they only fully commit when it’s that, or face extinction.

So by the time there’s enough activity to be spotted? Genetic Screening isn’t really going to help. They’ll either dig in and hide, or be in a position to corrupt the results etc.

Now, genetic screening can be useful in very specific situations, such as where a cult is discovered and its leaders slain. They’ll be in enough disarray to not get their stuff together. And one can then screen the rest of the populace. Provided of course, it’s not a Forge or Hive World!

Sure, I'm game for it being a fecking awful scenario that basically involves high powered auspex scans, giant concentration camps, and generally being a brutalist clusterfeth with a less than 100% success rate at complete extermination each time. That's the Imperium in a nutshell! To dig a case out of the lore in support of that, there's actually an excellent case in the Jaq Draco books; where he goes to a world where the whole population was screened for the taint and all the Genestealers supposedly purged. But it then turns out that some of them just left the population, dug into a local rocky barren mountain, and hid for the next few decades. So...less than ideal.

But that's a very different thing to 'Lol, they so dumb, they so primitive, what losers, ain't no way they have tech or means to do it'.

When you are an empire as big as the Imperium it is counterproductive to bring each world up to a certain level of technological advancement. Only the most or more important/strategic planets get to have that privilege. When you are having constant war being beset on all sides you need to have resources at particular areas and not simply spread out equally among your entire sectors. This is one example of why quality of technology/resources varies throughout the Empire.

Also there is one Genestealer Cult infestation in the Tau Empire that still is supposed to be ongoing under there slits/noses. Namely Ksi'm'yen:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ksi%27m%27yen
The way it ends by an "eccentric" Ethereal named Aun'ghol (own goal) declaring it "clean" makes one think that the cult survived and is bidding their time for another go at taking over the planet.

I personally would rather stay in the Imeprium than the Tau. Though my quality of life would vary depending on where & which circle I was born in.

The Tau Empire is an authoritarian empire with a "first among equals" inequality regarding its member species and a caste system.

That sucks, but I still would prefer to live under that system that at least gives lip service to its population's needs, because the IoM is worse.

The IoM is a failing and dying empire only held by blood and momentum. It is not authoritarian, but that is because it doesn't really has a functioning government.

So between an authoritarian but pragmatic and functional regime and a failed war-torn state, I prefer the oppressive regime that at least gives me the reassurance of a warm meal and a roof over my head.

 Dysartes wrote:


Nah. that's just the typical Tau bull$%^& coming into play.

There's someone in the Studio whose job appears to be applying handwavium to any potential issue the Tau might have. It gets old very, very fast.

It is necessary for the setting. The Imperium IS supposed to be inefficient, downright careless of it's people if not actively brutalizing it, and (primarines and other writer-ex-machina tech nonwithstanding) looking more technologically inferior than the others because only good tech is reserved for killing others, not helping it's citizens live longer or be more productive. You NEED the backdrop of civilization that have their s**t together to fully display it in fiction and lore.

 Grimskul wrote:
I dunno what's going on, but there's at least 2 posters that have been going on an "Imperium is bad and you should feel bad" hate spree on any subject that is remotely based around that and I don't get the vitriol given that it's a fictional empire. Not to mention that most people agree that the Imperium is generally a bad place to live in within our IRL context, so I don't who they're preaching to.

Mmm, it's because there are people who take a Candide-like approach to the Imperium, in that it's the ideal government given how horrible the 40k setting is. That's easily rejected and people who support that have questionable motives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
The Tau Empire is an authoritarian empire with a "first among equals" inequality regarding its member species and a caste system.

That sucks, but I still would prefer to live under that system that at least gives lip service to its population's needs, because the IoM is worse.

The IoM is a failing and dying empire only held by blood and momentum. It is not authoritarian, but that is because it doesn't really has a functioning government.

So between an authoritarian but pragmatic and functional regime and a failed war-torn state, I prefer the oppressive regime that at least gives me the reassurance of a warm meal and a roof over my head.

I don't think you can in good faith call the Imperium non-authoritarian. Most people in it are basically slaves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arson Fire wrote:

Well if genetic testing isn't good enough, then I guess the tau's much vaunted genetic testing wouldn't work either.
You can't have it both ways.

Yeah I can. The Tau's screening protocols tend to catch the infested; the Imperium's don't. That's there in the fluff.

Arson Fire wrote:
You were saying that the imperials wouldn't genetically screen populations. Then asked for references from novels that showed otherwise. I provided that.
Now you're saying that somehow this genetic testing is insufficient to detect genestealer genetic material, despite the novels themselves saying that it is?
Your goalposts are flying backwards here.

No, I'm saying that the Imperium only screens reactively, the Tau screen proactively.

 Ketara wrote:

This has been largely addressed above. Not to mention the very commonsense retort of 'If I'm checking for genestealer genetic activity, I'll be checking for it at whatever level is appropriate and wherever is appropriate'. The Imperium is vast, and your average medical professional has no idea what a Genestealer even is. So no, they're not going to spot them unless they're deliberately looking for them. But that's kinda been part of my point all along, y'know?

The issue is that the Imperium can fail at multiple levels - transmitting the level of the threat of Genestealer infestation to their different worlds, and again, you can always have some power-hungry Magos deciding he doesn't want to implement that tech for political reasons, or the Ecclesiarchy suddenly declares that only faith alone can protect you from the xenos influence and burns all of the medical equipment... the Tau don't have the majority of those issues. Moreover, the Tau have their gak together enough to scan proactively, not just reactively.

Hecaton wrote:
I don't think you can in good faith call the Imperium non-authoritarian. Most people in it are basically slaves.

Generally when I see it referred to as non-authoritarian, it's because Terra and the Administratum generally don't care that much what individual Planetary Governors do so long as they pay their tithes and aren't too hugely incompetent.

The Inquisition might play closer attention to what's going on, especially when it comes to trade with Xenos or potential corruption by Chaos, but Terra is fairly hands-off.

 Dysartes wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
I don't think you can in good faith call the Imperium non-authoritarian. Most people in it are basically slaves.

Generally when I see it referred to as non-authoritarian, it's because Terra and the Administratum generally don't care that much what individual Planetary Governors do so long as they pay their tithes and aren't too hugely incompetent.

The Inquisition might play closer attention to what's going on, especially when it comes to trade with Xenos or potential corruption by Chaos, but Terra is fairly hands-off.

I allways imagined that:
The superstructure of the megastate of the imperium of man, is, hands off feudalism.

So long the tithes flow, the duties are fullfilled then the imperium doesn't / can't care about most planets, a hands off approach is therefore better for them in order to not have constant issues with local rule, however it also has a bunch of institutions to tie it together, last but not least the ecclesiarchy.

The Chapters, are more like knights, in a way, they get granted a fief or are on "Wanderschaft" and the peasants aka worlds have to sustain them. The needless cruelty comes then in mostly on a local level and too high tithes. etc. And is due to the clusterfeth of expanse highly corrupt in itself.

Hence why Chaos cults and Genestealers have it often quite easy to infiltrate the average world.

 Ketara wrote:
...you know screening someone's genetic material will flag the Genestealer dna presence, right? Whether I'm testing to see if you're 1/2, 1/4/ 1/8, or 1/32 Genestealer? In the same way if I merged you with a banana on a DNA level, the banana is going to show up.

DNA. screening. does. not. work. like. that.

It's not some magical scrying that picks up everything in a sample. It picks up DNA, and if it would pick up a banana, it's because it has DNA too. Tyranids don't. Their genetic information is completely alien and you genetic test would ignore it, just as it ignores all other impurities in a sample. Otherwise it would be completely useless - in fact, some scientists suspect genetic screening is so bad at picking up alternative genetic information to the point there might be a second, 'shadow' biosphere on Earth right now and we're failing to detect it with even best tests even though it's related to us because it evolved on the same planet, not flew in from another galaxy.

Then there is the fact you're dealing with insanely advanced, ancient, impossibly intelligent organism that mastered genetic code to the point even Eldar and Necrons pale next to it. What gives you idea whatever it produced would be easy to detect? For all we know, tyranid genetic information of genestealers instantly disintegrates outside of body. Or is hidden in the host DNA in changes so subtle you have no chance of detecting them (say, atoms might be the same but extra genetic information is hidden in energy state or number of electrons they have, etc, etc, or broadcasted from the patriarch using genestealer telepathy, or any number of other methods that might also depend on host capabilities). Or mutations are hidden in brain and no amount of blood and flesh testing will detect them. Or any number of other reasons, I have no idea why people assume utterly primitive (even compared to IoM) Tau come even close to outsmarting and outplaying one of the oldest and most powerful races around...

 Irbis wrote:
Or any number of other reasons, I have no idea why people assume utterly primitive (even compared to IoM) Tau come even close to outsmarting and outplaying one of the oldest and most powerful races around...

The Tau's attitude towards technology is anything but primitive compared to the IoM.

Hecaton wrote:
The Tau's attitude towards technology is anything but primitive compared to the IoM.

I am not talking about their attitude, I am talking about technology. It's downright crude compared to literally everyone else. Even orks. Being all shiny and glowy doesn't make it advanced - sure, they do understand it, but a simple meltagun probably has technologies in it Tau won't even dream of in the next couple centuries or millennia. They can try and cheat equivalent with brute force but their nearest equivalent, fusion gun, is big, bulky, expensive, devours tons of energy, can be only used by suits, and is weaker and shorter ranged (which used to be the case on table, too, until some Tau fanboy started to inflate their stats every edition). Repeat for every technology they use.

And their attitude is even more dangerous and crude. They look at Imperium and Orks and think 'lul look at these primitives' which makes them overlook both use technologies created by civilizations on a level Tau can't even dream of, both are quadrillions of times more numerous than Tau, and basically make them behave like a kid poking the butt of a bear with a nail. Which only works due to stupid amounts of plot shield and the fact their enemies always grab idiot ball fighting them even if their usual tactic would beat Tau handily...

Ok that is getting ridiculous. Yes the Tau, despite appearances, are the less technologically advanced race. But they make it up with standardization and pragmatism and constant R&D.

Their weapons are less energy dense than the other factions? so they deploy larger weapons and built larger battlesuits, and they do so on industrialized large scale so such weapons are common sight.

Everyone else, with the exception of the Tyranids, has a schizophrenic approach to technology: The IoM literally has a dogmatic techno-religion that replaced science. Orks are entirely dependent on what crazy fancy their Meks are on that day. Eldar have forgotten and lost so much tech. Even the Necrons are divided, with every Dynasty and Cryptek having a "feth you, got mine" mentality so not a lot of tech-sharing.

Yeah Tau are one of the few races who are advancing their technology and advancing it at a very accelerated rate. In a few thousand years they went from "Primitives using stones" to a force that can compete with the Imperium. Right now Tau's main weakness isn't technology so much as it is simple raw numbers. Any of the major races could destroy Tau rather easily simply through weight of numbers (perhaps excepting Genestealer Cults and Dark Eldar). It's simply plot armour of being out on a limb of the Galaxy and being ignored and then a few well placed warp storms and such which have protected the Tau.


The Metlagun might have superior technology inside it, but the Imperium won't dismantle it to understand it. The Tau will. They will dismantle them, pull them apart and attempt to replicate and understand that technology. Then they'll aim to improve it!

 Irbis wrote:

I am not talking about their attitude, I am talking about technology. It's downright crude compared to literally everyone else. Even orks. Being all shiny and glowy doesn't make it advanced - sure, they do understand it, but a simple meltagun probably has technologies in it Tau won't even dream of in the next couple centuries or millennia. They can try and cheat equivalent with brute force but their nearest equivalent, fusion gun, is big, bulky, expensive, devours tons of energy, can be only used by suits, and is weaker and shorter ranged (which used to be the case on table, too, until some Tau fanboy started to inflate their stats every edition). Repeat for every technology they use.

Nope. They always had the Eldar-tier plasma weaponry, for example, before some Imperial fanboy broke the fluff and gave the humans superior plasma weaponry. Before that humans had more powerful, but less stable, plasma weaponry, compared to Tau and Eldar. Going back to the original 2001 Tau codex, the fusion blaster was statted exactly the same as the Imperial Meltaguns, so you're entirely offbase about it being "weaker and shorter ranged." The only faction that has consistently seen its stats increase over the editions is Astartes, to the point that Necrons' statline had to be nerfed so that Astartes wouldn't seen to be inferior 1-on-1 to them (which they were in late 2e when Necrons were introduced).

Just the fact that the Tau can mass-produce pulse rifles, a weapon that is superior in every meaningful way to the boltgun, a weapon that the Imperium can only put on their elite troops, shows that their technology is rapidly outstripping the IoM's.

 Irbis wrote:
And their attitude is even more dangerous and crude. They look at Imperium and Orks and think 'lul look at these primitives' which makes them overlook both use technologies created by civilizations on a level Tau can't even dream of, both are quadrillions of times more numerous than Tau, and basically make them behave like a kid poking the butt of a bear with a nail. Which only works due to stupid amounts of plot shield and the fact their enemies always grab idiot ball fighting them even if their usual tactic would beat Tau handily...

I think their attitude about other races being primitives has more to do with the Imperium being absolutely morally and ethically bankrupt compared to the Tau, and also having tactics that Luigi Cadorna would consider wasteful.

Overall, it's also worth noting that technology is not a ladder, it is a web. Setting aside any potential psychic fuckery with Ork technology, and the fact that Meks are amazing engineers but gakky scientists, Ork force field and especially teleportation technology eclipses that of the other races in the setting, but their warp travel infrastructure/tech is inferior to the other races' in the setting excepting the Tau. Tau weaponry and propulsion seems to be superior to most other races, but their lack of psychic potential in their species has severely hampered their ability to develop countermeasures to things like demons and enemy psykers, whereas the Imperium has Null Rods and so on. What *is* consistent in the Imperium is that the AdMech jealously guards scientific and technical knowledge and considers what we would think in the real world to be progress to be heresy punishable by death, whereas the Tau have what you could call a scientific community that shares information and allows advances on one world to be rapidly implemented on another. In that sense, it seems almost inevitable that the Tau's technology base will eclipse the Imperium's rapidly even if their infrastructure and material levels won't.

There are probably a fair few alien genestealer cults out there, it's just that they're aliens restricted to one planet or one system with little interstellar relevance so there at least won't be much in the way of models for them.

Out of the galactic players, humans happen to be the best targets.


Has there ever been a WD article on how different host species influence the look of the purebred genestealer? That'd be interesting.

 Ketara wrote:
There's one Eldar book where it turns out the locals turned into Hybrids so as to avoid having their souls swallowed by Slaanesh. Decent enough read. Shows that it's certainly possible.

What's the title of that book?

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
There's one Eldar book where it turns out the locals turned into Hybrids so as to avoid having their souls swallowed by Slaanesh. Decent enough read. Shows that it's certainly possible.

What's the title of that book?

It's one of the 'Rise of the Ynnari' ones - Ghost Warrior?