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2020/11/24 07:17:23
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Like it says in the subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Hersey era tech than loyalist marines? This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions (renegades should have the same limits as loyalists).
I think this would fit the lore of the Legions, as they have access to many of the STC blueprints for Heresy pattern units, having stolen them before leaving for the Eye of Terror, and access to the Dark Mechanicus and their Hellforges where those STCs are used to continue to produce Heresy era tech. It would also help differentiate the two factions: loyalists would have more new technology, both in the form of things like Razorbacks and landspeeders, as well as the new Cawl tech in the form of primaris vehicles and equipment, while The Legions would use the more ancient designs.
We already had this rules differentiation in 8th where under the fw index rules loyalists were limited access to Hersey era units by the "Relic" rule while csm had unlimited access to Hellforged units. Furthermore, the new rules for Hersey pattern units in the Imperial Armour Compendium brings most of these units in line with codex options, so I don't think this would cause a balance issue.
2020/11/24 07:24:06
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Yes. Absolutely. In a perfect world they'd expand our range with vehicles that were clearly Heresy era patterns before being corrupted by their time in the Eye to further differentiate the factions (quality concept commonly suggested by BrianDavion)
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2020/11/24 08:13:10
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Eldarain wrote: Yes. Absolutely. In a perfect world they'd expand our range with vehicles that were clearly Heresy era patterns before being corrupted by their time in the Eye to further differentiate the factions (quality concept commonly suggested by BrianDavion)
Define "Currupted by their time in The Eye". Because if you're talking about something like the "Hellforged" rules from 8th: cool. But if you're talking about "Tentacles, tentacles on everything!", or what Hellbrutes did to dreadnoughts: pass, as that doesn't jive with some Legions lore, particularly the constantly thumbing their noses at the Chaos Gods Night Lords.
2020/11/24 08:29:06
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
The legions also had many of their production sites obliterated during or in the aftermath of the heresy, and unlike the loyalists there is a massive amount infighting in the eye of chaos, destroying that ancient gear as well.
So, should they have better access to that heresy era stuff? Yes, but not massively so. There might be some things that can still be mass-produced by them, but that's not true for everything ever used during the heresy. Essentially there should be "marine-looking" models that are readily available to Legions, but not to loyalists (or renegades).
As for the CP costs on the FW stuff? The reason behind that is neither lore nor balance. GW clearly wants to push FW centerpiece models out of the competitive scene, and have been working towards that since 8th. Whether that is good or bad, I don't want to comment on. I own no FW resin, but I'm always happy to see some across the board.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/11/24 08:36:24
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
some bloke wrote: I love the idea of Chaos looking more like ancient marines rather than marines with spikes, tentacles and blood. They're supposed to be ancient!
They should be both depending upon their background... Infact a decent baseline model and upgrade sprues would go a long way. Or dare i say it, conversion tutorials, like the hobby from ages past was?
Alas, gw rather focusses on warbands, but even that focus is lackluster so what gives...
Not to mention that to this day, if you want a propper fighter or fighterbomber for CAS you need to go to FW, for a model that could've been easily replicated in plastic.
Nothing against the helldrake, but it should be a terrifying engine monster and not the called up militia of quasi aerial warfare, because as of right now it feels that way.
But that has also to do with how GW percives to need to make daemonengines to diversify the CSM away from SM, and doing so in a style that is frankly lackluster.
Which is ironic as hell considering that Decimators or the xana II aircraft fit the whole evil machine alot better then the frankly cartoony looking newer daemonengines.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/11/24 08:39:22
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Eldarain wrote: Yes. Absolutely. In a perfect world they'd expand our range with vehicles that were clearly Heresy era patterns before being corrupted by their time in the Eye to further differentiate the factions (quality concept commonly suggested by BrianDavion)
Define "Currupted by their time in The Eye". Because if you're talking about something like the "Hellforged" rules from 8th: cool. But if you're talking about "Tentacles, tentacles on everything!", or what Hellbrutes did to dreadnoughts: pass, as that doesn't jive with some Legions lore, particularly the constantly thumbing their noses at the Chaos Gods Night Lords.
Definitely. There's a place for that crazy tentacles and fleshnaughts in some forces and opening Heresy options back up as you describe would help the less full blown chaotic possession types stay relevant.
But my thoughts were more along the lines of what they've actually been doing in reverse lately.
Or the appearance of the armor panels on the Decimator and Titans. That kind of thing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/24 08:43:45
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2020/11/24 08:47:40
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Eldarain wrote: Yes. Absolutely. In a perfect world they'd expand our range with vehicles that were clearly Heresy era patterns before being corrupted by their time in the Eye to further differentiate the factions (quality concept commonly suggested by BrianDavion)
Define "Currupted by their time in The Eye". Because if you're talking about something like the "Hellforged" rules from 8th: cool. But if you're talking about "Tentacles, tentacles on everything!", or what Hellbrutes did to dreadnoughts: pass, as that doesn't jive with some Legions lore, particularly the constantly thumbing their noses at the Chaos Gods Night Lords.
Definitely. There's a place for that crazy tentacles and fleshnaughts in some forces and opening Heresy options back up as you describe would help the less full blown chaotic possession types stay relevant.
But my thoughts were more along the lines of what they've actually been doing in reverse lately.
The legions also had many of their production sites obliterated during or in the aftermath of the heresy, and unlike the loyalists there is a massive amount infighting in the eye of chaos, destroying that ancient gear as well.
So, should they have better access to that heresy era stuff? Yes, but not massively so. There might be some things that can still be mass-produced by them, but that's not true for everything ever used during the heresy. Essentially there should be "marine-looking" models that are readily available to Legions, but not to loyalists (or renegades).
As for the CP costs on the FW stuff? The reason behind that is neither lore nor balance. GW clearly wants to push FW centerpiece models out of the competitive scene, and have been working towards that since 8th. Whether that is good or bad, I don't want to comment on. I own no FW resin, but I'm always happy to see some across the board.
Yes, they lost a lot of production facilities in the Heresy, but the Dark Mechanicus built more in The Eye afterwards. I've done this before, but here's the list of Dark Mechanicus Hellforges detailed in IA 13:
Xana 2
Relaxi
The Silent Forge
Abheilung
Cyclotrathe
Samech
Uraniborg 1572
Temporia
Sarum
Crucible-Omega
And of course there are likely more not detailed in IA 13 (can't expect every Hellforge in existence to be described in one book). So they have plenty of production available.
As for Martial Legacy being designed to push fw out of competitive play: Then why no similar rules for other faction's fw units? Nah, it was the gw rules team's attempt to replicate the "Relic" rules from previous editions. But they screwed up and copy pasted the rules from the loyalist units onto the Chaos units in their typical lackluster handling of rules for anything "Chaos", thus destroying the difference set by fw between the two factions in those previous editions.
2020/11/24 11:20:36
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Gadzilla666 wrote: This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions
That has the side effect of making identical units cheaper for chaos marines than for regular/regenade marines.
A variant might be to incude a drawback to replace the CP cost (like the helbrutes crazed rule) or differing points costs to represent the strategic (CP) importance to the imperium vs the material (points) cost to the renegades.
2020/11/24 11:29:02
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Gadzilla666 wrote: This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions
That has the side effect of making identical units cheaper for chaos marines than for regular/regenade marines.
A variant might be to incude a drawback to replace the CP cost (like the helbrutes crazed rule) or differing points costs to represent the strategic (CP) importance to the imperium vs the material (points) cost to the renegades.
considering , as of now, csm ones doesn't get doctrines, are indeed inferior then loyalists therefore, no quite fine.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/11/24 11:34:56
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Gadzilla666 wrote: This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions
That has the side effect of making identical units cheaper for chaos marines than for regular/regenade marines.
A variant might be to incude a drawback to replace the CP cost (like the helbrutes crazed rule) or differing points costs to represent the strategic (CP) importance to the imperium vs the material (points) cost to the renegades.
considering , as of now, csm ones doesn't get doctrines, are indeed inferior then loyalists therefore, no quite fine.
I'd be willing to bet that CSMs will get some sort of "doctrine equivilant" (weather it'll be as good as doctrines remains to be seen) to enchourage pepople to run a pure list instead of soup. that seems a standard design element in 9th edition thus far.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/11/24 11:47:06
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Gadzilla666 wrote: This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions
That has the side effect of making identical units cheaper for chaos marines than for regular/regenade marines.
A variant might be to incude a drawback to replace the CP cost (like the helbrutes crazed rule) or differing points costs to represent the strategic (CP) importance to the imperium vs the material (points) cost to the renegades.
Yes, and? They are not identical due to the differing rules of the different factions/subfactions. We've spent a year with Word Bearers Land Raiders costing the same as Iron Hands Land Raiders, despite the two being miles apart in effectiveness. The same applies across subfactions. Are Blood Angels Eradicators as effective as Salamanders Eradicators? But they're the same price.
Also, this is about giving The Legions greater access to Heresy tech than loyalists, not just shifting the costs to a different ledger. The deck is allready stacked in loyalists favor. Do I need to remind you of the disparity in codex options for both dreadnoughts and tanks between csm and loyalists?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 11:47:34
2020/11/24 11:52:18
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Gadzilla666 wrote: This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions
That has the side effect of making identical units cheaper for chaos marines than for regular/regenade marines.
A variant might be to incude a drawback to replace the CP cost (like the helbrutes crazed rule) or differing points costs to represent the strategic (CP) importance to the imperium vs the material (points) cost to the renegades.
considering , as of now, csm ones doesn't get doctrines, are indeed inferior then loyalists therefore, no quite fine.
I'd be willing to bet that CSMs will get some sort of "doctrine equivilant" (weather it'll be as good as doctrines remains to be seen) to enchourage pepople to run a pure list instead of soup. that seems a standard design element in 9th edition thus far.
still disagree, even for the simple fact as gad pointed out, heresy tech should be a focus for CSM and not for sm, so yeah, if anything it should be SM paying more and beeing more disconected torwards heresy gear rather then CSM which don't even really get traits on it for reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 11:55:59
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/11/24 11:56:22
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Personally I consider things like the Iron Hands debacle to be a failing of the system (and a good example of why I dislike all the excessive 'bonus rules for paint scheme' in the game), but that's just me. Throwing more stuff out of whack just makes the game even less balanced - it doesn't create some kind of magical equilibrium of brokenness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 12:02:30
2020/11/24 12:00:05
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
The legions also had many of their production sites obliterated during or in the aftermath of the heresy, and unlike the loyalists there is a massive amount infighting in the eye of chaos, destroying that ancient gear as well.
So, should they have better access to that heresy era stuff? Yes, but not massively so. There might be some things that can still be mass-produced by them, but that's not true for everything ever used during the heresy. Essentially there should be "marine-looking" models that are readily available to Legions, but not to loyalists (or renegades).
As for the CP costs on the FW stuff? The reason behind that is neither lore nor balance. GW clearly wants to push FW centerpiece models out of the competitive scene, and have been working towards that since 8th. Whether that is good or bad, I don't want to comment on. I own no FW resin, but I'm always happy to see some across the board.
Yes, they lost a lot of production facilities in the Heresy, but the Dark Mechanicus built more in The Eye afterwards. I've done this before, but here's the list of Dark Mechanicus Hellforges detailed in IA 13:
Xana 2
Relaxi
The Silent Forge
Abheilung
Cyclotrathe
Samech
Uraniborg 1572
Temporia
Sarum
Crucible-Omega
And of course there are likely more not detailed in IA 13 (can't expect every Hellforge in existence to be described in one book). So they have plenty of production available.
and the modern USA has plenty of production avaliable, but couldn't build an Iowa Battleship if the order was given tomorrow. it's possiable the dark mechanium's forge worlds are producing something other then old heresy designs. (in fact it's likely that when unfettered from the shackles of martian orthadoxy the dark mechanium isn't going to be all that intreasted in pumping out the exact same things they did before) also, there's the cost. we know a baneblade, just for example is expensive to produce and even forge worlds don't produce then in massive numbers. the dark mechanium is very much it's own indepndant thing and a warband looking to aquire a new one, or even aquire rare parts, likely will have to pay a considerable price. so many CSM warbands may decide it's easier to salvage easily maintained units from the loyalists then strike bargins with the dark mech for rare items.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/11/24 12:00:51
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Gadzilla666 wrote: As for Martial Legacy being designed to push fw out of competitive play: Then why no similar rules for other faction's fw units? Nah, it was the gw rules team's attempt to replicate the "Relic" rules from previous editions. But they screwed up and copy pasted the rules from the loyalist units onto the Chaos units in their typical lackluster handling of rules for anything "Chaos", thus destroying the difference set by fw between the two factions in those previous editions.
Are there any competitive FW options for other factions? Except for the ork warboss of course, but that's a completely different story.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/11/24 12:03:02
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Sure, if you put it that way then i'm all for giving CSMcp-free access to heresy vehicles and screwing them on everything else. Why not spin some more plates for GW to drop.
Personally I consider things like the Iron Hands debacle to be a failing of the system (and a good example of why I dislike all the excessive 'bonus rules for paint scheme' in the game), but that's just me.
The system is not broken, it's just ultimately stacked into GW's hands, erm meant pockets. Because it allows to constantly change rules and demand money for it, and let's be real here, GW is inclined to monetise it's veterans that way.
Gadzilla666 wrote: As for Martial Legacy being designed to push fw out of competitive play: Then why no similar rules for other faction's fw units? Nah, it was the gw rules team's attempt to replicate the "Relic" rules from previous editions. But they screwed up and copy pasted the rules from the loyalist units onto the Chaos units in their typical lackluster handling of rules for anything "Chaos", thus destroying the difference set by fw between the two factions in those previous editions.
Are there any competitive FW options for other factions? Except for the ork warboss of course, but that's a completely different story.
TBF the chaos versions also weren't really competitive, close to but in most cases not. It was the supplements and the rules stacking As A.T pointed out that made the FW options breaking the game, but considering they were before just "good" it's fairly easy to point to the real issue.
The legions also had many of their production sites obliterated during or in the aftermath of the heresy, and unlike the loyalists there is a massive amount infighting in the eye of chaos, destroying that ancient gear as well.
So, should they have better access to that heresy era stuff? Yes, but not massively so. There might be some things that can still be mass-produced by them, but that's not true for everything ever used during the heresy. Essentially there should be "marine-looking" models that are readily available to Legions, but not to loyalists (or renegades).
As for the CP costs on the FW stuff? The reason behind that is neither lore nor balance. GW clearly wants to push FW centerpiece models out of the competitive scene, and have been working towards that since 8th. Whether that is good or bad, I don't want to comment on. I own no FW resin, but I'm always happy to see some across the board.
Yes, they lost a lot of production facilities in the Heresy, but the Dark Mechanicus built more in The Eye afterwards. I've done this before, but here's the list of Dark Mechanicus Hellforges detailed in IA 13:
Xana 2 Relaxi The Silent Forge Abheilung Cyclotrathe Samech Uraniborg 1572 Temporia Sarum Crucible-Omega
And of course there are likely more not detailed in IA 13 (can't expect every Hellforge in existence to be described in one book). So they have plenty of production available.
and the modern USA has plenty of production avaliable, but couldn't build an Iowa Battleship if the order was given tomorrow. it's possiable the dark mechanium's forge worlds are producing something other then old heresy designs. (in fact it's likely that when unfettered from the shackles of martian orthadoxy the dark mechanium isn't going to be all that intreasted in pumping out the exact same things they did before) also, there's the cost. we know a baneblade, just for example is expensive to produce and even forge worlds don't produce then in massive numbers. the dark mechanium is very much it's own indepndant thing and a warband looking to aquire a new one, or even aquire rare parts, likely will have to pay a considerable price. so many CSM warbands may decide it's easier to salvage easily maintained units from the loyalists then strike bargins with the dark mech for rare items.
you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/11/24 12:06:00
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/11/24 12:24:06
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Jidmah wrote: Are there any competitive FW options for other factions?
Not tried them in 9th but half of the custodes line is forgeworld, and much of it was usable to good (and even tournament winning) at some point in 8th - even their superheavy transport flyer was a potential game winner.
Chaos and Marines make up the vast bulk of FW units, and may soon make up even more if they decide to release more heresy era unit rules. Many factions get nothing (or near enough).
2020/11/24 12:25:23
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
The legions also had many of their production sites obliterated during or in the aftermath of the heresy, and unlike the loyalists there is a massive amount infighting in the eye of chaos, destroying that ancient gear as well.
So, should they have better access to that heresy era stuff? Yes, but not massively so. There might be some things that can still be mass-produced by them, but that's not true for everything ever used during the heresy. Essentially there should be "marine-looking" models that are readily available to Legions, but not to loyalists (or renegades).
As for the CP costs on the FW stuff? The reason behind that is neither lore nor balance. GW clearly wants to push FW centerpiece models out of the competitive scene, and have been working towards that since 8th. Whether that is good or bad, I don't want to comment on. I own no FW resin, but I'm always happy to see some across the board.
Yes, they lost a lot of production facilities in the Heresy, but the Dark Mechanicus built more in The Eye afterwards. I've done this before, but here's the list of Dark Mechanicus Hellforges detailed in IA 13:
Xana 2
Relaxi
The Silent Forge
Abheilung
Cyclotrathe
Samech
Uraniborg 1572
Temporia
Sarum
Crucible-Omega
And of course there are likely more not detailed in IA 13 (can't expect every Hellforge in existence to be described in one book). So they have plenty of production available.
and the modern USA has plenty of production avaliable, but couldn't build an Iowa Battleship if the order was given tomorrow. it's possiable the dark mechanium's forge worlds are producing something other then old heresy designs. (in fact it's likely that when unfettered from the shackles of martian orthadoxy the dark mechanium isn't going to be all that intreasted in pumping out the exact same things they did before) also, there's the cost. we know a baneblade, just for example is expensive to produce and even forge worlds don't produce then in massive numbers. the dark mechanium is very much it's own indepndant thing and a warband looking to aquire a new one, or even aquire rare parts, likely will have to pay a considerable price. so many CSM warbands may decide it's easier to salvage easily maintained units from the loyalists then strike bargins with the dark mech for rare items.
True, but Baneblades are still available to the Guard without additional CP costs beyond the price of the SHAD aren't they? Yes, the Dark Mechanicus would probably charge a premium price for Heresy tech, but some Legions would pay it, same as they would pay for their other weapons and supplies, as well as maintenance for their ships. All units have some price for all factions, be it currency, raw materials, or bio-mass.
Jidmah wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote: As for Martial Legacy being designed to push fw out of competitive play: Then why no similar rules for other faction's fw units? Nah, it was the gw rules team's attempt to replicate the "Relic" rules from previous editions. But they screwed up and copy pasted the rules from the loyalist units onto the Chaos units in their typical lackluster handling of rules for anything "Chaos", thus destroying the difference set by fw between the two factions in those previous editions.
Are there any competitive FW options for other factions? Except for the ork warboss of course, but that's a completely different story.
Not sure. But are the csmFW options as competitive as they were now that their stats and abilities have been changed? No more WS/BS2 for dreadnoughts, nerfed weapons, no more Machine Malifica or vehicles WS improving as they take damage instead of degrading? The changes to stats and abilities were enough, the additional 1CP cost was just an additional kick in the teeth.
Personally I consider things like the Iron Hands debacle to be a failing of the system (and a good example of why I dislike all the excessive 'bonus rules for paint scheme' in the game), but that's just me. Throwing more stuff out of whack just makes the game even less balanced - it doesn't create some kind of magical equilibrium of brokenness.
Removing the 1CP surcharge for csm wouldn't break anything. As I said: the Heresy pattern units are balanced now at their current prices with the changes to their rules. Can you give an example of a fw unit that would be broken without the additional 1CP cost now?
2020/11/24 12:27:28
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
I was specifically asking about 9th though - because half of what orks even remotely considered to be good was stomped down on so hard, that paying an extra CP feels ridiculously good in comparison. The other half was moved to legends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/24 12:28:20
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2020/11/24 12:38:02
Subject: Re:Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Agree somewhat, obviously some stuff like a leviathan is not exactly standard equipment, but some of the more standard patterns should definitely not cost CP. So maybe don't remove it wholesale.
To me though it goes further than that.
They use equipment with a different mentality, it's why we have dreadclaws and loyalists stopped using them.
Why we had plasma that blew up and loyalists didn't.
Why Deathguard would use Rad weapons and such.
It's not so much that loyalists can't use relics, it's that they don't want to. Part of that is dogma, part of it is tech and part is resources.
For CSM, who have helforges and STCs, only one of those is a factor.
CSM are more power focused, which is reflected in also in the whole aspiring champions thing as well and that should apply to our gear too.
It really really sucks that they copy pasted the loyalist entries (which they blatantly did).
We should have more unreliable gear that pushes destructiveness like malefic ammo that we used to get. In terms of rules it could be optional all but it should totally be reflected.
That was also shown in the helforged vehicles, they are heresy era tech, but not quite anymore.
We start seeing more malicious machine sprits, exotic weaponry, we had the legacies of ruin that fit chaos sooo so well.
As CSM wage war with these instruments, they (the gear) gradually get corrupted too, never mind being made in factory probably soaked in warp energies to begin with.
As for resoures, CSM regularly raid the imperium for slaves/material whatever.
If they can keep void fleets up for millennia, they have no problem creating machines that they have STCS for.
The helforges are more or less uncontested aside from potential infighting. They're too valuable to lose for the legions even if they don't have any standing alliances.
That doesn't stop them from trading though. And besides, the imperium is rife with infighting too, same for Astartes.
So yes, give us relics of the past, corrupted like their wielders.
And straight up new daemon engines are fine, but for the love of all things unholy, stop basing them on animals.
What about CSM says dragons and spiders....
2020/11/24 12:42:16
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....
I'm well aware that the Black Legion built an entirely new class of ship that likely essentially required "Warp tech" to create rather then simply build another Heresy era super battleship design such as the Gloriannia (or even Furious Abyss) class.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/11/24 12:45:17
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....
I'm well aware that the Black Legion built an entirely new class of ship that likely essentially required "Warp tech" to create rather then simply build another Heresy era super battleship design such as the Gloriannia (or even Furious Abyss) class.
your exemple was an iowa, they instead decided for the lolz to build a super iowa.
case closed.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2020/11/24 12:50:36
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
Personally (especially with DA Fallen) I would like to see a lot more 'Heresy' available to CSM just due to the timey-whimey factor of the EoT/warp. Any lore I've read has stated how varied the time flow is there and to some CSM the assault on the Imperial Palace was only a few weeks/months/etc ago.
I don't remember where I read it but there was a recent fluff piece about pre-13th Crusade Abaddon going to meet a force of 'Luna Wolves' that were lost in the warp for 10k years.
Especially with the Fallen, I think certain CSM should have access to squad formations, troop types, weapon options from the HH books. Maybe even an army theme: for Ex. Modern CSM (representing current tech and/or Red Corsairs/etc..), Heresy CSM (Volkites, Destroyer squads, etc..) or even a hybrid of the two.
"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."
"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."
you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....
I'm well aware that the Black Legion built an entirely new class of ship that likely essentially required "Warp tech" to create rather then simply build another Heresy era super battleship design such as the Gloriannia (or even Furious Abyss) class.
your exemple was an iowa, they instead decided for the lolz to build a super iowa.
case closed.
*sighs* Just in case you are simply uninformed of logistic realities I used the Iowa as an example specificly because the USA could produce the Iowa 60 years ago. but no longer could now as they don't have the construction infastructure to produce certain key components (the guns and armor I belive it is) I wasn't implying specificly some sort of bizzare naval limitation. my point is, that just because the dark mechanium has forge worlds, doesn't mean they can just snap their fingers and produce something.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/11/24 12:57:59
Subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Heresy era tech than loyalists?
you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....
I'm well aware that the Black Legion built an entirely new class of ship that likely essentially required "Warp tech" to create rather then simply build another Heresy era super battleship design such as the Gloriannia (or even Furious Abyss) class.
your exemple was an iowa, they instead decided for the lolz to build a super iowa.
case closed.
*sighs* Just in case you are simply uninformed of logistic realities I used the Iowa as an example specificly because the USA could produce the Iowa 60 years ago. but no longer could now as they don't have the construction infastructure to produce certain key components (the guns and armor I belive it is) I wasn't implying specificly some sort of bizzare naval limitation. my point is, that just because the dark mechanium has forge worlds, doesn't mean they can just snap their fingers and produce something.
You then must be pretty aggrivated torwards some of the new daemonengines, especially the nice IW ones in F&F.
And frankly, logistics, have never been something even considered remotly in the 40k universe to a realistic degre..
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
But if you're talking about "Tentacles, tentacles on everything!", or what Hellbrutes did to dreadnoughts: pass, as that doesn't jive with some Legions lore, particularly the constantly thumbing their noses at the Chaos Gods Night Lords.
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