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A.T. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Salamanders don't lose their...

And Night Lords don't lose their terror tactics. Whether or not that is a particularly fair exchange is a seperate question.

Penalizing your opponents shooting, movement, auras, and gaining bonuses to hit and movement all all very nice but they are only as 'night lords' as the name given to them. I could be describing the sisters strategems for all most players would know.

What you are describing ultimately is wanting more CP to get more bonuses and rerolls and that applies to every single army... or at least every single army with their own supplement, most of those non chaos/marine factions out there have all of one stratagem to 'define' them. Also another reason why I dislike rules for colours - people start to define the identity of their faction by its bonus rules rather than playing a units only because it's how they would in fluff - like playing waaaay too many bikers in an old edition evil sunz list simply because they were evil sunz, rules be damned.

So do you dislike fluffy armies as a whole? Genuinely curious because an all bikers evil sunz seems pretty fluffy to me.
Night lords don't lose terror tactics sure, but the buffs i listed weren't the Chapter tactics, they were the doctrine buffs.
My night lords stratagems might just look like theyre generic buffs but they change a lot how they play. These strats all want me to get up close and personal and use fear as a bonus to help my army.

Start by staying hidden from your prey (in midnight clad) then swiftly get in (raptor strike, from the night) to strike at the head (Vox scream) and watch the rabble fall apart as you mow then down (prey on the weak) then hold down whatever is disciplined enough to dare fight back (we have come for you) so you can flay them alive (flay them alive).

When i'm out of cp, i lose all of that which i love about my legion.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Alright, then remove the 2 command rerolls and add a vox scream on turn 3, basically the same result.

Or, you could just not forget to regenerate 1 CP each turn, drop one re-roll and bask in all the fluff of those 6 CP spent on deactivating auras are radiating.

And all of these are used without really wanting to win because then i'd be spamming double shooting +1 to hit and wound which is 4 cp /turn.

So, if you don't care about winning, why bother with the 3CP? You have clearly proven to me that you can spam all the nightlords stratagems despite fielding 3 FW units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Start by staying hidden from your prey (in midnight clad) then swiftly get in (raptor strike, from the night) to strike at the head (Vox scream) and watch the rabble fall apart as you mow then down (prey on the weak) then hold down whatever is disciplined enough to dare fight back (we have come for you) so you can flay them alive (flay them alive).

When i'm out of cp, i lose all of that which i love about my legion.

I hate to break it to you, but that is how almost every army plays.

 Jidmah wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Alright, then remove the 2 command rerolls and add a vox scream on turn 3, basically the same result.

Or, you could just not forget to regenerate 1 CP each turn, drop one re-roll and bask in all the fluff of those 6 CP spent on deactivating auras are radiating.

And all of these are used without really wanting to win because then i'd be spamming double shooting +1 to hit and wound which is 4 cp /turn.

So, if you don't care about winning, why bother with the 3CP? You have clearly proven to me that you can spam all the nightlords stratagems despite fielding 3 FW units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Start by staying hidden from your prey (in midnight clad) then swiftly get in (raptor strike, from the night) to strike at the head (Vox scream) and watch the rabble fall apart as you mow then down (prey on the weak) then hold down whatever is disciplined enough to dare fight back (we have come for you) so you can flay them alive (flay them alive).

When i'm out of cp, i lose all of that which i love about my legion.

I hate to break it to you, but that is how almost every army plays.

What about rounds 4 and 5? contrarly to what people on here say, ive been lucky enough that my games usually arent over by that time. And yes, vox scream is fluffy with how the night lords function. its litterally their modus operandi.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So do you dislike fluffy armies as a whole? Genuinely curious because an all bikers evil sunz seems pretty fluffy to me.

Quite the opposite, i'm the kind of player who would play 'fluff' armies despite a complete lack of bonuses to hit and other freebies. My idea of playing Night Lords is to take more raptors when I write my list - because that would be fluffy, not because they would be stronger.

A.T. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So do you dislike fluffy armies as a whole? Genuinely curious because an all bikers evil sunz seems pretty fluffy to me.

Quite the opposite, i'm the kind of player who would play 'fluff' armies despite a complete lack of bonuses to hit and other freebies. My idea of playing Night Lords is to take more raptors when I write my list - because that would be fluffy, not because they would be stronger.

Im confused on your original statement about evil sunz then.
Yeah, raptors are nice in night lords and i do always run them. But unit choice isnt the only way armies can express their fluff.

I would just like my Night lord raptors to feel different from other legion's. The best way to represent that right now is to give them Raptor strike + prey on the weak + we have come for you.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Im confused on your original statement about evil sunz then.

The comment was that 'fluffy' evil sunz players would take a lot of bikes for the sake of taking bikes, no matter whether they got bonuses for doing so or not.

And that I disliked rules for colours because it leads to people defining their subfaction by the benefits and drawbacks of those rules, rather than how they choose to compose their army and their playstyle.

A.T. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Im confused on your original statement about evil sunz then.

The comment was that 'fluffy' evil sunz players would take a lot of bikes for the sake of taking bikes, no matter whether they got bonuses for doing so or not.

And that I disliked rules for colours because it leads to people defining their subfaction by the benefits and drawbacks of those rules, rather than how they choose to compose their army and their playstyle.

Oh, you're right, i misread your comment.

the real problem is the need for CP.

strats are a terrible mechanic and should just go back to stuff you pay for w points or native abilities for specific units.

but it doesn't look like that's happening as GW seem to be doubling down on them for everyone.


But yes, chaos marines that are legion founded/splintered should have more access to HH tech than loyalists for several previously stated reasons.

Loyalists revere the stuff, Traitors see it as a means to an "end".

I'm fine with CSM not having the ability the field whole squads with grav guns or w/e because they're hard to maintain without reliable access to major workshops

BUT champions definitely should have first picks among the things they do have left so rad, grav and all sorts of weird beam weaponry should definitely be available to squad leaders and characters. Few maniacs would say no to a death ray and it'd be a fun way to differentiate CSM characters from SM characters.

Yeah, i got sidetracked with martial legacy when this wasnt the subject of the thread.

100% Heretics should get the old weaponry like Rad,cbeams, volkite, etc.

The fact that Primaris are now getting easier access to volkite than CSM do is a fething travesty

CSM probably shouldn't have much tech left considering how much they lose on the battlefield. Meanwhile loyalists have access the to resources of 1 million planets. It is hard to imagine CSM having more of anything than space marines have access to. The major difference though should be most CSM tech should be demonically enhanced.

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM probably shouldn't have much tech left considering how much they lose on the battlefield. Meanwhile loyalists have access the to resources of 1 million planets. It is hard to imagine CSM having more of anything than space marines have access to. The major difference though should be most CSM tech should be demonically enhanced.

Read the fluff, chaos has hellforges and still produce many HH-era gear. Warpsmiths also can maintain older stuff.

I see a lot of posts here harping on about FW as damn near pay to to win or wanting to get unfair bonuses because muh FW.
Have you ever had an actual Imperial Armour in your hands or spoken to FW?
I can only speak to CSM, but they understand the faction on a whole other level compared to GW, or I should say understood I guess...

When they write rules, they really try to translate the lore into rules, and for the most part it worked. And the same is true for their models.
THAT'S why people love FW. Imperial armour 13 (pre-8th) oozes character.
I want to play THOSE CSM. The ones that fight the long war. With Ancient war machines that might as well be literally fueled by hatred.
They showed CSM with a certain tragedy and bitterness and with the rules to reflect that. Soul tearing weapons, warp fueled ammunition, turning tanks into icons, possessing machines.
GW doesn't come close to that vision.

It's not about gaining an advantage by removing CP. By all rights half the stuff in IA should be in our codex.
Sure, there is always somebody spamming leviathans and switching armies on dime, but I refuse to believe that is the majority of players.
Post 7th Imperial armour is a pale shadow of the OG books, and 9ths is just as slap in the face. At least for 8th they had an excuse, since GW told them about 9th right about when the customers learned of it XD.
And even then they managed to shake things up with the helforged vehicle rules.

It's been said already and I'll say it again. the ONLY reason we pay for martial legacy is because GW copy pasted whatever kits loyalists had with the same rules and names changed....and even that they managed to screw up.
They put no thought into these rules at all, they're soulless. That's like going from a certain geneseed/history meaning something, to suddenly loosing that AND having to pay for it...oh..
All while Loyalists get to have their cake and eat it too.

For them nothing changed, the relics always cost them, this is new for CSM and it's clear they didn't add it because they thought it was a good idea.
And on of that, despite being the same, ours are somehow even worse BEFORE considering the CP cost, which is also worse for us as we now have to rely on CP to even BE a legion.
I don't even care if we can afford it or not, that's just stupid. It's unbalanced AND a detriment to the faction design.

....This thread is hitting too close to home

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM probably shouldn't have much tech left considering how much they lose on the battlefield. Meanwhile loyalists have access the to resources of 1 million planets. It is hard to imagine CSM having more of anything than space marines have access to. The major difference though should be most CSM tech should be demonically enhanced.

Read the fluff, chaos has hellforges and still produce many HH-era gear. Warpsmiths also can maintain older stuff.

Yeah never said they didn't. Nothing on the order of a million planet empire though is my point.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM probably shouldn't have much tech left considering how much they lose on the battlefield. Meanwhile loyalists have access the to resources of 1 million planets. It is hard to imagine CSM having more of anything than space marines have access to. The major difference though should be most CSM tech should be demonically enhanced.

Read the fluff, chaos has hellforges and still produce many HH-era gear. Warpsmiths also can maintain older stuff.

Yeah never said they didn't. Nothing on the order of a million planet empire though is my point.

dude, there's a whole list in this thread regarding dark mech worlds not even going into Legion facilities....
They literally arm Million strong armies of cannonfodder in some cases Like iw...

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM probably shouldn't have much tech left considering how much they lose on the battlefield. Meanwhile loyalists have access the to resources of 1 million planets. It is hard to imagine CSM having more of anything than space marines have access to. The major difference though should be most CSM tech should be demonically enhanced.

Read the fluff, chaos has hellforges and still produce many HH-era gear. Warpsmiths also can maintain older stuff.

Yeah never said they didn't. Nothing on the order of a million planet empire though is my point.

The difference is not as big as you think. How many of those are forge worlds and how many of those are within a reasonable range to supply a chapter.
Any they can't do whatever they want either unlike helforges. They don't answer to anyone.
Also, I imagine Helforges would be producing a LOT less every-day stuff like guard weapons, much less regular tech.

 Roknar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
CSM probably shouldn't have much tech left considering how much they lose on the battlefield. Meanwhile loyalists have access the to resources of 1 million planets. It is hard to imagine CSM having more of anything than space marines have access to. The major difference though should be most CSM tech should be demonically enhanced.

Read the fluff, chaos has hellforges and still produce many HH-era gear. Warpsmiths also can maintain older stuff.

Yeah never said they didn't. Nothing on the order of a million planet empire though is my point.

The difference is not as big as you think. How many of those are forge worlds and how many of those are within a reasonable range to supply a chapter.
Any they can't do whatever they want either unlike helforges. They don't answer to anyone.
Also, I imagine Helforges would be producing a LOT less every-day stuff like guard weapons, much less regular tech.

Also it's easy to produce more when time moves faster on your forgeworld.

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....

I'm well aware that the Black Legion built an entirely new class of ship that likely essentially required "Warp tech" to create rather then simply build another Heresy era super battleship design such as the Gloriannia (or even Furious Abyss) class.

your exemple was an iowa, they instead decided for the lolz to build a super iowa.

case closed.

*sighs* Just in case you are simply uninformed of logistic realities I used the Iowa as an example specificly because the USA could produce the Iowa 60 years ago. but no longer could now as they don't have the construction infastructure to produce certain key components (the guns and armor I belive it is) I wasn't implying specificly some sort of bizzare naval limitation. my point is, that just because the dark mechanium has forge worlds, doesn't mean they can just snap their fingers and produce something.

You then must be pretty aggrivated torwards some of the new daemonengines, especially the nice IW ones in F&F.
And frankly, logistics, have never been something even considered remotly in the 40k universe to a realistic degre..

No I'm not frustrated at all with the new deamon engines. keep in mind, I'm not saying chaos doesn't have any production facilities, or can't produce it's own material. but rather that it's possiable that chaos produces differant things, in fact the deamon engines are a pretty good example of this. there is a lot of situational evidance that the production FOCUS for chaos seems to be deamon engines. all their genuinely new vehicles are all deamon engines. This leads me to suspect that over all the focus of chaos forge worlds etc are "basic necessities" and deamon engines.

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


you realise that a bunch of Black legion warpsmiths found an Planetkiller hull on an abandoned hellforge and decided to stitch it together....

I'm well aware that the Black Legion built an entirely new class of ship that likely essentially required "Warp tech" to create rather then simply build another Heresy era super battleship design such as the Gloriannia (or even Furious Abyss) class.

your exemple was an iowa, they instead decided for the lolz to build a super iowa.

case closed.

*sighs* Just in case you are simply uninformed of logistic realities I used the Iowa as an example specificly because the USA could produce the Iowa 60 years ago. but no longer could now as they don't have the construction infastructure to produce certain key components (the guns and armor I belive it is) I wasn't implying specificly some sort of bizzare naval limitation. my point is, that just because the dark mechanium has forge worlds, doesn't mean they can just snap their fingers and produce something.

You then must be pretty aggrivated torwards some of the new daemonengines, especially the nice IW ones in F&F.
And frankly, logistics, have never been something even considered remotly in the 40k universe to a realistic degre..

No I'm not frustrated at all with the new deamon engines. keep in mind, I'm not saying chaos doesn't have any production facilities, or can't produce it's own material. but rather that it's possiable that chaos produces differant things, in fact the deamon engines are a pretty good example of this. there is a lot of situational evidance that the production FOCUS for chaos seems to be deamon engines. all their genuinely new vehicles are all deamon engines. This leads me to suspect that over all the focus of chaos forge worlds etc are "basic necessities" and deamon engines.

Or someone at the gw design studio really, really, likes dinosaurs and spiders with spikes on them.

The problem with the Chaos Forgeworlds is that they produce what they want. Not necessarily what some warlord wants, unless they have the power (Political/Strength/Bribes) to get them to. If the Dark Mechanicus wanted to keep building heresy era tech they would have stayed loyalist.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Like it says in the subject: Should Heretic Astartes have greater access to Hersey era tech than loyalist marines? This would be easy to achieve by simply removing the Martial Legacy rule from all Hersey Era units for The Legions (renegades should have the same limits as loyalists).

I think this would fit the lore of the Legions, as they have access to many of the STC blueprints for Heresy pattern units, having stolen them before leaving for the Eye of Terror, and access to the Dark Mechanicus and their Hellforges where those STCs are used to continue to produce Heresy era tech. It would also help differentiate the two factions: loyalists would have more new technology, both in the form of things like Razorbacks and landspeeders, as well as the new Cawl tech in the form of primaris vehicles and equipment, while The Legions would use the more ancient designs.

We already had this rules differentiation in 8th where under the fw index rules loyalists were limited access to Hersey era units by the "Relic" rule while csm had unlimited access to Hellforged units. Furthermore, the new rules for Hersey pattern units in the Imperial Armour Compendium brings most of these units in line with codex options, so I don't think this would cause a balance issue.

Probably not. It breaks down and is lost at the same rate, but loyalists have the industry to maintain it and keep it operational while most chaos warbands don't. There aren't that many Chaos forgeworlds and very few warbands save the largest/most prestigious have access/control of them.

If anything, Heretics should have access to the new stuff developed since then other than the Annihilator rather than being stuck with 10000 old gear. Most of their stuff is captured, salvaged, or defects with defecting forces, so modern stuff like Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters, and Razorbacks should have found their way into Chaos hands in the last 4000 years.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or someone at the gw design studio really, really, likes dinosaurs and spiders with spikes on them.

Well, there are the Lizardmen and Goblins of Fantasy...

Also, I think if you're going to be stuffing a daemon in to a machine to act as its AI/Machine Spirit, then it would probably work better if it somewhat resembled the daemon's perspective of itself.

Still some more classic designs would probably be desired by the likes of Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or someone at the gw design studio really, really, likes dinosaurs and spiders with spikes on them.

Well, there are the Lizardmen and Goblins of Fantasy...

Also, I think if you're going to be stuffing a daemon in to a machine to act as its AI/Machine Spirit, then it would probably work better if it somewhat resembled the daemon's perspective of itself.

Still some more classic designs would probably be desired by the likes of Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion.

they might, however do those warbands have the influence and resources to get a dark mech world to craft them it?

keep in mind a warband that rejects chaos has a few negative aspects going for it. presumably they're spending almost no time in the eye of terror so they're not going to likely have much of a strong relationship with the dark mech. good luck getting special orders. thats something that needs to be stressed, the dark mech are NOT servants of the Legion. they are their own independant force. they aren't intreasted in building what the legions tell them to. they build what they want and trade for what they need with the Legions.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Or someone at the gw design studio really, really, likes dinosaurs and spiders with spikes on them.

Well, there are the Lizardmen and Goblins of Fantasy...

Also, I think if you're going to be stuffing a daemon in to a machine to act as its AI/Machine Spirit, then it would probably work better if it somewhat resembled the daemon's perspective of itself.

Still some more classic designs would probably be desired by the likes of Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion.

they might, however do those warbands have the influence and resources to get a dark mech world to craft them it?

keep in mind a warband that rejects chaos has a few negative aspects going for it. presumably they're spending almost no time in the eye of terror so they're not going to likely have much of a strong relationship with the dark mech. good luck getting special orders. thats something that needs to be stressed, the dark mech are NOT servants of the Legion. they are their own independant force. they aren't intreasted in building what the legions tell them to. they build what they want and trade for what they need with the Legions.

There are also renegade forge worlds and forge worlds conquered by a warband that aren't like Xana.

However, only the most powerful warband owns such things. Also, such industries would generally be producing or capable of producing newer marks of things.

Not really, most of them are into warp tech, daemon hybrid tech like defilers and other daemonic engines.

Maybe the AL could have it if they passed on the more chaotic daemontech, but they aren't a big enough force to make a lot of custom stuff for.

I don't think any dark Forgeworld would mind pumping out regular predators provided the undivided/less Chaosey warband just pays for it. Not too mention something like IW forges provided again sufficient payment is made.

I think it's a moot point given how crap this edition is for vehicles and how determined GW seems to be to nerf all FW models into unplayability.