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In general, DG will lose damage from the CORE mechanic though and it's not like their isn't room for buffs to get them up to speed with other tier 1 or 2 factions, especially if the synergy with nurgle daemons gets curbed as expected

The one unit that clearly has to go up in points are MBH as well as plague marines because of their extra wound. Outside of that though? I could even see Blightlords stay the same or drop in points despite getting an extra wound when I see how aggressive loyalist terminators are priced now.

Doohicky wrote:


Can't see how that will work. Custodes are much faster and have much better standard weapons. Sticking an extra attack for CC does not make them even close to custodes.
You can see with Custodes the prevalent build is bike heavy as it's needed to be fast when such a small force.

Right, but we've seen like 1% of the codex so far? There could be plenty of changes that allow DG to be on par with Custodes in firepower and survivability. I'm just saying it would be an interesting place for DG to be.

 puma713 wrote:

Doohicky wrote:


Can't see how that will work. Custodes are much faster and have much better standard weapons. Sticking an extra attack for CC does not make them even close to custodes.
You can see with Custodes the prevalent build is bike heavy as it's needed to be fast when such a small force.

Right, but we've seen like 1% of the codex so far?

Ha.
DG are a very small codex. At this point we've seen a lot of the units, or at least the major changes to a lot of the units (full statline for DG, just changes to possessed) and even a single unit is more than 1%.

OK, I got my weeks mixed up - I thought the DG book went up on pre-order this weekend, and it doesn't.

I was going to say that I was disappointed by the preview paucity this week, but given my weeks are wrong...

The buff to Entropy cannons is nice and may signal more of our PA book stuff gets rolled into the datasheets rather than being CP upgrades. I´m thinking of reroll aura for the LoC´s, reroll 1´s and 2´s for plague weapons for the surgeon, DR for units that don´t have it normally, possibly plague bolters.
As for points increases, PM and MBH will definitely go up but the rest I´m not too sure of big increases. Seems GW just loves to up the lethality with these new books and paying a premium for it would go against that. Only unit I really fear for is the Blightspawn because he´s just that good. Anti-charge aura and a crazy good flamer.

 Castozor wrote:
The buff to Entropy cannons is nice and may signal more of our PA book stuff gets rolled into the datasheets rather than being CP upgrades. I´m thinking of reroll aura for the LoC´s, reroll 1´s and 2´s for plague weapons for the surgeon, DR for units that don´t have it normally, possibly plague bolters.
As for points increases, PM and MBH will definitely go up but the rest I´m not too sure of big increases. Seems GW just loves to up the lethality with these new books and paying a premium for it would go against that. Only unit I really fear for is the Blightspawn because he´s just that good. Anti-charge aura and a crazy good flamer.

I understand your argument but I don't think just blanket upping lethality for free and deeming it the in thing is a wise move. We certainly shouldn't be expecting or wanting massive firepower increases for free on anything.

You could already do much of that by spending a few CP though, and DG weren't exactly killing stuff left and right, so I don't think this is a big problem.

Now I have and play DG so I have a dog in this race as it is but I think a little of this feels like a knee jerk reaction to things getting better.

How come it is loyalist marines can improve leaps and bounds and get every release under the sun and that is all fine, but DG look like they may get some viable choices to be made and increased viability for their handful of choices and people start saying we gotta dial it back ?

If we were going to dial it back shouldn't that have started in the beginning of all this ? In part it did with some of the stuff with " Core " however freaking that demon engines will hit on 3s was the first Reeee ! moment, all marine stuff these days tends to hit on 3's or better. Just because it was decreed a time ago demons suck at aiming or hitting things with hands doesn't mean it should always be so.

I don't want to get into a whole big thing but it feels from what I keep reading like people expect DG to play fair and stay weak while other books grow stronger in the jungle ( kudos to anyone who gets that movie reference. ) because they have some moral imperative to set an example ?

So far I don't really see anything that is " OMG !!!! " out of these rumors and changes. I do see increasing viability and people may actually need to be concerned over some of this stuff more than previously. Is that a bad thing however ? I don't think so. Everyone should have something people fear, find powerful or a problem to deal with.

So if the handful of options DG have feel like they may have more teeth both literal and figurative, this should be a good thing and a sign of hope for codex releases.

What you don't want is auto win button choices and I haven't seen anything yet, especially without knowing points, that hints to anything like that.

DG feeling strong isn't a bad thing, them increasing in appeal is a good thing for a new codex drop.

Hell I play DA as well and let me tell you, when their 3.5 -4 ed codex dropped it was so lack luster wasn't anyone saying it " Strong " no one found their rules " fit other groups better " and you don't want a codex drop to make you feel, meh for lack of a better term.

Dudeface wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
The buff to Entropy cannons is nice and may signal more of our PA book stuff gets rolled into the datasheets rather than being CP upgrades. I´m thinking of reroll aura for the LoC´s, reroll 1´s and 2´s for plague weapons for the surgeon, DR for units that don´t have it normally, possibly plague bolters.
As for points increases, PM and MBH will definitely go up but the rest I´m not too sure of big increases. Seems GW just loves to up the lethality with these new books and paying a premium for it would go against that. Only unit I really fear for is the Blightspawn because he´s just that good. Anti-charge aura and a crazy good flamer.

I understand your argument but I don't think just blanket upping lethality for free and deeming it the in thing is a wise move. We certainly shouldn't be expecting or wanting massive firepower increases for free on anything.

Eh. DG were already pretty pillowfisted. Not getting the global bump to lethality in the face of everyone else (including the upcoming Dark Eldar, where the only thing we know is 'Moar Attacks! Moar Damage!') and a multi-faction upgrade to defenses seems like kicking a three-legged dog while its down.

Unfortunately that's the part of the GW cycle we're in. Getting left out of the 'paradigm' for the edition means getting left behind, likely for years.

Dudeface wrote:


I understand your argument but I don't think just blanket upping lethality for free and deeming it the in thing is a wise move. We certainly shouldn't be expecting or wanting massive firepower increases for free on anything.

As mentioned by others, DG offensive output atm is pretty lackluster outside of cheeky tricks like the grenade combo. We could stand to gain a bit in that department without much of an increase in points. Furthermore I do not applaud this increase in lethality for little to no cost, but it is my personal observation from the Necron Codex and the Dark Eldar teaser that this is just the way GW does things now. If that is indeed the case why wouldn't we get the same treatment. DG is not bad by any means, but so far it seems the early 9th predictions of "DG are totally going to be top contenders" isn't true either. Having power on par to SM, Necrons, Quins, Demons isn't necessarily a bad thing.

DG can hardly kill anything. It won mainly by playing the objective game. It had that one grenade combo everyone can see coming from a mile away. (And we don't even know if that will stay in its current form).

With DG, either you couldn't kill the army, and it won from objectives or you could kill it, and its a race to see if you can catch up in points after you killed most of the army. Let's see the whole codex before we rush in to claim that the lethality is increasing too much.

I don't understand why loyalists space marine can be allowed to be so "lethal" while their chaos counterparts who fell into chaos for power ends up being weaker in almost every other way.

I mean, look at an Iron Hands space marine army. It is far more lethal in damage output, but it is probably only slightly less resilient than a DG army. (but close enough).

I can kinda understand people not wanting another codex as strong as the Space Marines one but at the same time....I kinda can't? I mean, if DG end up with a weaker codex than SM, they get to be stuck below SM for the whole of the edition. And that's kinda crappy? They were pretty bad for most of 8th. It doesn't seem so outlandish to hope that they will be on par with marines (who will be tweaked a lot more as the edition continues).

That is also something to consider, before we say broken or OP for DG. Consider the fact that loyalist marines will probably keep increasing, growing in units and ability, unless we believe that once the last supplement is out there will be no more loyalist marine stuff. I wouldn't take that bet, so the books that will be touched on less, given less attention past the first drop kind of need to be swinging for the fences at the start.

Which, not to make it a thing but that is currently a big problem with GWs intelligent design.

Every other army has to make due with a codex, maybe way down the line a touch up in a book with other stuff in it and that is it. Like DG last time, one of the first books out and nothing until the PA book. So these single of codex releases have to be able to be good for awhile, where as loyalist marines seem to just get 75% at least of the design space and new rules and models put out growing all edition long in power and capability.

That was a lot to just say, lets try not to worry about it, we need to see the whole picture but so far while some of the stuff is good, I doubt we are seeing DG pulled in as the new no brainer list that will crush all without mercy. Lets not fall into panic mode just because something is getting better when better doesn't mean the best.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
That is also something to consider, before we say broken or OP for DG. Consider the fact that loyalist marines will probably keep increasing, growing in units and ability, unless we believe that once the last supplement is out there will be no more loyalist marine stuff. I wouldn't take that bet, so the books that will be touched on less, given less attention past the first drop kind of need to be swinging for the fences at the start.

Which, not to make it a thing but that is currently a big problem with GWs intelligent design.

Every other army has to make due with a codex, maybe way down the line a touch up in a book with other stuff in it and that is it. Like DG last time, one of the first books out and nothing until the PA book. So these single of codex releases have to be able to be good for awhile, where as loyalist marines seem to just get 75% at least of the design space and new rules and models put out growing all edition long in power and capability.

That was a lot to just say, lets try not to worry about it, we need to see the whole picture but so far while some of the stuff is good, I doubt we are seeing DG pulled in as the new no brainer list that will crush all without mercy. Lets not fall into panic mode just because something is getting better when better doesn't mean the best.

Don't forget that Death Guard are getting a new campaign book in a couple months as well, so will see a further bump from that.

Maybe they will see a bump in that, we currently don't know if they will get any rules at all in it. They could just be a narrative plot point with little or not actual power in it, especially so close after release of their new codex. I guess it depends on if that was supposed to be further down the line and the virus stuff just has everything backed up or they thought they'd need more stuff so soon after they just got their codex brought up to speed.

I'd hope they wouldn't need more power that quickly, or that they wouldn't just spread rules out over two books just for more money, just can't be sure though until we know more about it. Maybe they'll surprise us all and it'll just be a narrative or crusade focused release ? That could be interesting.

Unlikely they would release TWO crusade specific books at once. There's already 1 crusade book so odds are the other book is matched play rules for the 4 factions, dg included.

Books for books god is GW's motto. Supplements were inevitable.

Well I just hope it won't be the case however much it seems like it might be. Crusade being a newish thing however I'm not about to write off them pushing that trying to get momentum for Crusade games being their new child as it is.

Just saying we will see. My heart of heart thinks it'll be matched play stuff to try and make it a felt as mandatory buy, but I hope it'll be a not mandatory feeling crusade book.

I have to agree with much of the sentiment here. Death Guard weren't really wrecking face with their arms and some of the top contender lists in tourneys were often relying on Contemptor Dreadnoughts to provide some "Oomph" to their army. If anything I'd say that some of the changes are bringing DG up to par with some of their loyalist counterparts, but even then DG suffers from having a way smaller toolkit. Death Guard doesn't have any heavy infantry for example and have to rely exclusively on larger units like MPH and PBC to give them some firepower.

Regarding the campaign book I imagine we'll see something similar to the Vigilus book. A small CP semi-formation maybe. It would be rather pointless to release a book so close to the codex that expands the codex a great deal. Also, there are quite a few other factions in the book so maybe DG will get a very limited thing while the other factions get better supported.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Death Guard doesn't have any heavy infantry for example and have to rely exclusively on larger units like MPH and PBC to give them some firepower.

I might be mis-interpreting "heavy infantry" here, but by most standards both the Blightlords and Deathshrouds would qualify, especially if we assume +1W and possibly +1A for them.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Death Guard doesn't have any heavy infantry for example and have to rely exclusively on larger units like MPH and PBC to give them some firepower.

I might be mis-interpreting "heavy infantry" here, but by most standards both the Blightlords and Deathshrouds would qualify, especially if we assume +1W and possibly +1A for them.

I believe Eldarsif was refering to heavy [weapon] infantry rather than heavy [armour] infantry.
So like Devastators, Havocs, Retributors etc.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding the campaign book I imagine we'll see something similar to the Vigilus book. A small CP semi-formation maybe. It would be rather pointless to release a book so close to the codex that expands the codex a great deal. Also, there are quite a few other factions in the book so maybe DG will get a very limited thing while the other factions get better supported.

Pointless? You mean players wouldn't buy it if it has good rules? After all only point that matters is moving money from players wallet to GW's wallet. That's why GW releases stuff.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Death Guard doesn't have any heavy infantry for example and have to rely exclusively on larger units like MPH and PBC to give them some firepower.

I might be mis-interpreting "heavy infantry" here, but by most standards both the Blightlords and Deathshrouds would qualify, especially if we assume +1W and possibly +1A for them.

I believe Eldarsif was refering to heavy [weapon] infantry rather than heavy [armour] infantry.
So like Devastators, Havocs, Retributors etc.

...the sort of infantry the plague-ridden parade float was really not a fan of?

I guess his point was that in order to have a working theme of lightly armed infantry supported by armored artillery, that armored artillery actually need to have some bite.

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess his point was that in order to have a working theme of lightly armed infantry supported by armored artillery, that armored artillery actually need to have some bite.

Then we end up back at bite + durable = expensive

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Death Guard doesn't have any heavy infantry for example and have to rely exclusively on larger units like MPH and PBC to give them some firepower.

I might be mis-interpreting "heavy infantry" here, but by most standards both the Blightlords and Deathshrouds would qualify, especially if we assume +1W and possibly +1A for them.

I believe Eldarsif was refering to heavy [weapon] infantry rather than heavy [armour] infantry.
So like Devastators, Havocs, Retributors etc.

My point exactly. Devs, Havocs, and Retributors is a design choice Mortarion doesn't appear to believe in much and those units do serve a valuable role in most armies. Since Death Guard doesn't get them it means we must rely on things such as MPH and PBC to do the heavy lifting in regards to heavy weaponry. If those units were to be kept underpowered or hard to fit into a list then you'll have an army that has a hard time dealing with any armor at all. (Personally I do feel DG should get Obliterators but that's only because he technically helped make them)

This is especially problematic after the Forgeworld index was released and Contemptors and Leviathans became inaccessible for Death Guard. Now, that might change if there are keyword changes in the new codex and that somehow makes them available again.

I'd also add that this is also more problematic now as GW wants to give more support to mono-armies with some kind of rules, and having Death Guard need to ally with Standard CSM for firepower would kind of break that paradigm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding the campaign book I imagine we'll see something similar to the Vigilus book. A small CP semi-formation maybe. It would be rather pointless to release a book so close to the codex that expands the codex a great deal. Also, there are quite a few other factions in the book so maybe DG will get a very limited thing while the other factions get better supported.

Pointless? You mean players wouldn't buy it if it has good rules? After all only point that matters is moving money from players wallet to GW's wallet. That's why GW releases stuff.

It is a question of how subtle GW wants to be in regards to this. If they release a huge DG supplement a month after the codex it will be rather obnoxious. If they release mostly updates to non-updated codex armies it will feel like a bone thrown to codexes lagging behind.

So the question is how cheeky GW is. I imagine it could go both ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess his point was that in order to have a working theme of lightly armed infantry supported by armored artillery, that armored artillery actually need to have some bite.

Then we end up back at bite + durable = expensive

The thing is they are quite expensive right now and do not have that big of a bite so giving them a slightly better bite would most likely justify their current cost in many ways.

It is good to keep in mind that Death Guard aren't necessarily performing at their point value at the moment.

...the sort of infantry the plague-ridden parade float was really not a fan of?

Nurgle is displeased with this description of his most magnificent of all Primarchs.

 Eldarsif wrote:
This is especially problematic after the Forgeworld index was released and Contemptors and Leviathans became inaccessible for Death Guard. Now, that might change if there are keyword changes in the new codex and that somehow makes them available again.

This thread has focused almost entirely on differences in existing units but maybe these FW units are being denied because there will now be Conemptors and Leviathans (or something similar) in the Codex itself? Hard to imagine a new Codex without a bunch of new models and units.

Dudeface wrote:
Then we end up back at bite + durable = expensive

Only if you assume that the current sum or durability, bite and mobility(!) is already fairly priced.

 Horla wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
This is especially problematic after the Forgeworld index was released and Contemptors and Leviathans became inaccessible for Death Guard. Now, that might change if there are keyword changes in the new codex and that somehow makes them available again.

This thread has focused almost entirely on differences in existing units but maybe these FW units are being denied because there will now be Conemptors and Leviathans (or something similar) in the Codex itself? Hard to imagine a new Codex without a bunch of new models and units.

One never knows, but so far they've been rather reluctant to include FW models within the codexes, and currently very little in reveals for potential new units except those that have already been previewed.

We do know we are getting a new HQ that is supposed to boost Daemon Engines so I am a bit excited to see how he turns out. Still, it would leave us with the current crop of units and now an extra cost on top of that to buff them.

Hopefully we'll see some articles pop up in the coming week telling us more. At this point I desperately want to see the new faction traits.

 Horla wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
This is especially problematic after the Forgeworld index was released and Contemptors and Leviathans became inaccessible for Death Guard. Now, that might change if there are keyword changes in the new codex and that somehow makes them available again.

This thread has focused almost entirely on differences in existing units but maybe these FW units are being denied because there will now be Conemptors and Leviathans (or something similar) in the Codex itself? Hard to imagine a new Codex without a bunch of new models and units.

There is no precedent for FW resin moving to codex entries in the last years. The chance of that happening for DG is very close to zero.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Horla wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
This is especially problematic after the Forgeworld index was released and Contemptors and Leviathans became inaccessible for Death Guard. Now, that might change if there are keyword changes in the new codex and that somehow makes them available again.

This thread has focused almost entirely on differences in existing units but maybe these FW units are being denied because there will now be Conemptors and Leviathans (or something similar) in the Codex itself? Hard to imagine a new Codex without a bunch of new models and units.

There is no precedent for FW resin moving to codex entries in the last years. The chance of that happening for DG is very close to zero.

I was thinking of a new model entirely but maybe I'm just a dreamer and not ready for this harsh reality we live in!