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I consider it a huge issue. I think we all agreed DG were not exactly setting the 40k tabletop on fire, and we have lost pur mortal wound protection. I seriously struggled to fight a friend's Salamanders before, but at least my tanks and drones shrugged an awful lot of his firepower.

Don't forget an awful lot of really effective Marine armies are heavily biased to infantry - so all those rapid fire bolters, auto bolt rifles, assault cannons are going to be more effective against us?

I don't understand how our hardest foe to beat, the Loyalist, isn't going to have a field day now?

 Eldarsif wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:
Wow, this is a kick to the teeth.

Quite.

-1 D is good for a model with 2 wounds.

A single plasma shot will not be able to kill a Plague Marine. It will be able to kill a Primaris marine.

While I liked the way DR used to work, this is not a huge nerf. It just means they take less guaranteed damage at the upper end of the spectrum instead of randomly shrugging off damage all over.

The difference is that without FnP Poxwalkers are useless as they are T3 with 7+ save(hopefully they'll get something to barely survive). It also means we are now quite vulnerable to Mortal Wound gimmicks. Also, D2 weapons are not a dime a dozen even if it has been increased with the new Heavy Bolter changes. I have also not seen that great a proliferation of plasma to really fear plasma.

Ultimately this makes DG vulnerable to small arms fire.

I am not a fan of the change, but will live with it as long as we see an appropriate point drop. I just want the book now so I can see the entire picture.

I

If the PWs cost 1 point less, would they still be useless?

I'd happily take no-DR meatshields if I could field them in greater numbers.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:
Wow, this is a kick to the teeth.

Quite.

-1 D is good for a model with 2 wounds.

A single plasma shot will not be able to kill a Plague Marine. It will be able to kill a Primaris marine.

While I liked the way DR used to work, this is not a huge nerf. It just means they take less guaranteed damage at the upper end of the spectrum instead of randomly shrugging off damage all over.

It's good vs >= D2 weapons. Against the cheapest D1 weapons Plague Marines are no more resilient than vanilla Marines which definitely is a problem in my book. And Poxwalkers don't benefit at all.

KirvesUK wrote:
I consider it a huge issue. I think we all agreed DG were not exactly setting the 40k tabletop on fire, and we have lost pur mortal wound protection. I seriously struggled to fight a friend's Salamanders before, but at least my tanks and drones shrugged an awful lot of his firepower.

Don't forget an awful lot of really effective Marine armies are heavily biased to infantry - so all those rapid fire bolters, auto bolt rifles, assault cannons are going to be more effective against us?

I don't understand how our hardest foe to beat, the Loyalist, isn't going to have a field day now?

Lots of Loyalist weapons are two damage so you're actually buffed against those (Bladeguard Veterans only do 1 damage now, Heavy Bolters are back to 1 damage now, e.t.c.). I'd be more worried if you faced Grey Knights or TSons because you've now entered the Custodes world where MW will tear you apart.

You can also think of it as probabilities. 5+++ basically let you ignore 1 out of every 3 damage. Against a 2 damage weapon, this would average nothing. Now you always reduce it by one (statistically equivalent to a 4+++). Against 3 damage weapons you always reduce it by one (same as the average of the 5+++). You're actually only less effective vs. 4 damage and up, 1 damage and MW.

If the PWs cost 1 point less, would they still be useless?

I'd happily take no-DR meatshields if I could field them in greater numbers.

A 6 point Poxwalker with that bad save and low T is going to be garbage.

Maybe 4 points with some stratagems and then we might have a stew going.

Audustum wrote:


Lots of Loyalist weapons are two damage so you're actually buffed against those (Bladeguard Veterans only do 1 damage now, Heavy Bolters are back to 1 damage now, e.t.c.). I'd be more worried if you faced Grey Knights or TSons because you've now entered the Custodes world where MW will tear you apart.

Well, both Grey Knights and TSons rank quite a bit below Death Guard, so they need a bit of help to begin with. Not to mention they lost unlimited smite. And Plague Marines are 33% MORE resilient vs. Mortals than they were in 8th.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Audustum wrote:


Lots of Loyalist weapons are two damage so you're actually buffed against those (Bladeguard Veterans only do 1 damage now, Heavy Bolters are back to 1 damage now, e.t.c.). I'd be more worried if you faced Grey Knights or TSons because you've now entered the Custodes world where MW will tear you apart.

Well, both Grey Knights and TSons rank quite a bit below Death Guard, so they need a bit of help to begin with. And Plague Marines are 33% MORE resilient vs. Mortals than they were in 8th.

Yeah, I'm pretty upbeat about Death Guard's position in 9th. This book is overall a strong buff too.

 BleachHawk wrote:
Against the cheapest D1 weapons Plague Marines are no more resilient than vanilla Marines which definitely sucks in my book.

How do you know? We haven't seen stratagems, auras or psychic powers yet. They may (and probably will) still have a bunch of ways to ignore wounds on a smaller scale.

It's funny how many people were saying on here a few months ago that marines getting 2 wounds was pointless, because so many weapons were revised to 2 damage. Seems like this is something that will pay off as more codexes get their heavy bolter-style upgrades.

Also I think it's good to see army-wide rules that are effective, but don't require extra dice rolls to be made on every single attack.

KirvesUK wrote:
I consider it a huge issue. I think we all agreed DG were not exactly setting the 40k tabletop on fire, and we have lost pur mortal wound protection. I seriously struggled to fight a friend's Salamanders before, but at least my tanks and drones shrugged an awful lot of his firepower.

Don't forget an awful lot of really effective Marine armies are heavily biased to infantry - so all those rapid fire bolters, auto bolt rifles, assault cannons are going to be more effective against us?

I don't understand how our hardest foe to beat, the Loyalist, isn't going to have a field day now?

More effective than imaginary w2 5+++ death guard. Less effective than they were vs old with new. 4 bolter shots to kill 2 plague marine vs 3. 33% increase in　survivability.

To say bolters are more effective you need to compare vs stats that never existed.

 xttz wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:
Against the cheapest D1 weapons Plague Marines are no more resilient than vanilla Marines which definitely sucks in my book.

How do you know? We haven't seen stratagems, auras or psychic powers yet. They may (and probably will) still have a bunch of ways to ignore wounds on a smaller scale.

It's funny how many people were saying on here a few months ago that marines getting 2 wounds was pointless, because so many weapons were revised to 2 damage. Seems like this is something that will pay off as more codexes get their heavy bolter-style upgrades.

Also I think it's good to see army-wide rules that are effective, but don't require extra dice rolls to be made on every single attack.

How do I know? I compare simple stat lines for both, PM and vanilla marines. Most cheap weapons have S3 - S4, D1. So same wound roll vs 2 wounds and 3+ save.
Vanilla marines have defensive auras, strats, ... as well.

Edit: ok against cheap S4 weapons PM still are tougher.

 puma713 wrote:
We are the most resilient of troops! We are the toughest in the galaxy! Except against the weakest of arms fire.

When the new codex launches, the Death Guard will be ignoring one wound guaranteed against any attacks that deal more than 1 Damage. When you consider that Plague Marines, Death Guard Possessed, Blightlord Terminators, and Deathshroud Terminators also gain an additional Wound in the new codex, it makes the legion a true force to be reckoned with. The 2-Damage weapons (super-charged plasma weapons, we’re looking at you) that are the bane of Space Marines of every stripe simply won’t cut it against the Death Guard.*

I mean this in the nicest way, but really? What did people expect? Being able to reduce damage by 1 is nothing really to sneeze at--and they aren't going to let 1 damage get reduced to 0.

 BleachHawk wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:
Against the cheapest D1 weapons Plague Marines are no more resilient than vanilla Marines which definitely sucks in my book.

How do you know? We haven't seen stratagems, auras or psychic powers yet. They may (and probably will) still have a bunch of ways to ignore wounds on a smaller scale.

It's funny how many people were saying on here a few months ago that marines getting 2 wounds was pointless, because so many weapons were revised to 2 damage. Seems like this is something that will pay off as more codexes get their heavy bolter-style upgrades.

Also I think it's good to see army-wide rules that are effective, but don't require extra dice rolls to be made on every single attack.

How do I know? I compare simple stat lines for both, PM and vanilla marines. Most cheap weapons have S3 - S4, D1. So same wound roll vs 2 wounds and 3+ save.
Vanilla marines have defensive auras, strats, ... as well.

Edit: ok against cheap S4 weapons PM still are tougher.

lol glad the penny dropped "Marines have so many releases, it's 90% vs marines but damn those s3 weapons nobody uses!"

Overall I like it and means plague marines might not need to be pointed astronomically. I get people are upset about mortal wounds but I feel it actually fits in universe better this way.

We also haven't seen the poxwalker datasheet yet either (to my knowledge). Who's to say they don't have a 5++ built in?

I highly doubt they would make this change without knowing it would gut Poxwalkers (a fairly new kit) without compensating for it in some way.

I think this rule is pretty OP, actually.

It just invalidates so many things in the game.

Sister Repentia? trash
Plasma Inceptors? trash
New Incubi? trash
Shining Spears? trash
Bladeguard? well ... nerfed
Avenger Gattling? trash
Most Custodes melee? trash
Riptide Burstcannon? even more trash
GSC Aberrants? ... yeah, I guess we needed another nerf


This might be the biggest fubar by GW since the Iron Hands supplement.

GW just nerfed probably a good third of models in their 40K range right out of the game.

Dudeface wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:
Against the cheapest D1 weapons Plague Marines are no more resilient than vanilla Marines which definitely sucks in my book.

How do you know? We haven't seen stratagems, auras or psychic powers yet. They may (and probably will) still have a bunch of ways to ignore wounds on a smaller scale.

It's funny how many people were saying on here a few months ago that marines getting 2 wounds was pointless, because so many weapons were revised to 2 damage. Seems like this is something that will pay off as more codexes get their heavy bolter-style upgrades.

Also I think it's good to see army-wide rules that are effective, but don't require extra dice rolls to be made on every single attack.

How do I know? I compare simple stat lines for both, PM and vanilla marines. Most cheap weapons have S3 - S4, D1. So same wound roll vs 2 wounds and 3+ save.
Vanilla marines have defensive auras, strats, ... as well.

Edit: ok against cheap S4 weapons PM still are tougher.

lol glad the penny dropped "Marines have so many releases, it's 90% vs marines but damn those s3 weapons nobody uses!"

Overall I like it and means plague marines might not need to be pointed astronomically. I get people are upset about mortal wounds but I feel it actually fits in universe better this way.

You don't know which factions I play against. 90% Ad Mech and Astra Militarum (that's mostly S3 on the troops). So thank you for the sassy response but I couldn't care less

 BleachHawk wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 BleachHawk wrote:
Against the cheapest D1 weapons Plague Marines are no more resilient than vanilla Marines which definitely sucks in my book.

How do you know? We haven't seen stratagems, auras or psychic powers yet. They may (and probably will) still have a bunch of ways to ignore wounds on a smaller scale.

It's funny how many people were saying on here a few months ago that marines getting 2 wounds was pointless, because so many weapons were revised to 2 damage. Seems like this is something that will pay off as more codexes get their heavy bolter-style upgrades.

Also I think it's good to see army-wide rules that are effective, but don't require extra dice rolls to be made on every single attack.

How do I know? I compare simple stat lines for both, PM and vanilla marines. Most cheap weapons have S3 - S4, D1. So same wound roll vs 2 wounds and 3+ save.
Vanilla marines have defensive auras, strats, ... as well.

Edit: ok against cheap S4 weapons PM still are tougher.

lol glad the penny dropped "Marines have so many releases, it's 90% vs marines but damn those s3 weapons nobody uses!"

Overall I like it and means plague marines might not need to be pointed astronomically. I get people are upset about mortal wounds but I feel it actually fits in universe better this way.

You don't know which factions I play against. 90% Ad Mech and Astra Militarum (that's mostly S3 on the troops). So thank you for the sassy response but I couldn't care less

Sorry it was more a satirical response about people on these boards more than at you.

Going from W1 with a 5+ FNP to W2 would be an upgrade for Plague Marines even if they lost DR entirely. The new implementation of DR might not be as helpful against D1 weapons, but that's a huge buff against increasingly-common D2 weapons. Compared to their current statline, it's a net 33% increase in durability against everything up to D3.

Bolters- needed 1.5 wounds to kill, now need 2
Overcharged Plasma- needed 1.5 wounds to kill, now need 2
Mortal Wounds- needed 1.5MW to kill, now need 2

The extra wound gives you better survivability against D1 weapons, the new DR gives you better survivability against D2 weapons, and T5 still helps out against S4-5 and S8-9 weapons. The only things you're no more durable than a regular Marine against are being drowned in S3 fire (against which you're still 33% more durable than before), or hit with S6-7 D3+ weapons, of which there aren't very many in the first place.

Given the other significant buffs to Plague Marines, and the lack of points changes in the SM and Necron codices, it looks like Plague Marines are getting a major improvement. The jury's still out on Poxwalkers since the new DR doesn't help them, and the way it'll interact with vehicles is different, but it seems to me like when it comes to Plague Marines people are disappointed due to unreasonable expectations.

Wow. The only thing I'm sure about is that this changes everything.

The only thing I hope for is that I can still give DR to my landraider.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
2 wound plague marines with this vs. 1 wound plague marines with old DG still are more resilient vs. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, even Mortal Wounds, etc.. .

Seems good, and most importantly, less dice-rolling to get through stuff!!!

It's bad. The comparison isn't with 'old 1W plague marines,' it's with all other marines (that also have 2 wounds), since that is the norm for all marines.
Most of the time, disgustingly resilient does nothing. And plasma weapons were already on the decline since it's harder to sheninangans around the natural one, and the platforms you can have plasma on went up in cost.

Yes, it helps against heavy bolters. But... The reality is, DR has been their signature rule. For it to do nothing at all except against a handful of very specific weapons (and a plethora of exceptions that you don't see very often and should have just been standard weapons)... Feels bad.

So far the rules changes for DG have been minor tweaks and one big nerf. Nothing that adds to their ability to kill enemies or take objectives, just a light utility change and a durability downgrade.

---
It is nice for vehicles (except dreads, since it's redundant with the rule that dreads got innately for free), especially the ones that didn't get DR previously, and probably the terminators. But for line death guard it's a big hit.

 catbarf wrote:
Going from W1 with a 5+ FNP to W2 would be an upgrade for Plague Marines even if they lost DR entirely. The new implementation of DR might not be as helpful against D1 weapons, but that's a huge buff against increasingly-common D2 weapons. Compared to their current statline, it's a net 33% increase in durability against everything up to D3.

Bolters- needed 1.5 wounds to kill, now need 2
Overcharged Plasma- needed 1.5 wounds to kill, now need 2
Mortal Wounds- needed 1.5MW to kill, now need 2

The extra wound gives you better survivability against D1 weapons, the new DR gives you better survivability against D2 weapons, and T5 still helps out against S4-5 and S8-9 weapons. The only things you're no more durable than a regular Marine against are being drowned in S3 fire (against which you're still 33% more durable than before), or hit with S6-7 D3+ weapons, of which there aren't very many in the first place.

Given the other significant buffs to Plague Marines, and the lack of points changes in the SM and Necron codices, it looks like Plague Marines are getting a major improvement. The jury's still out on Poxwalkers since the new DR doesn't help them, and the way it'll interact with vehicles is different, but it seems to me like when it comes to Plague Marines people are disappointed due to unreasonable expectations.

I think the big question that arises from this is how much D2 weaponry are we going to see in the future 9th edition codexes. With this rule and what we've seen in the Space Marine codex I could very well imagine we'll see a decent proliferation of D2 weapons in general.

This is a mathematical nerf specially for anything not Plague Marine. Is also a nerf vs mortal wounds.

But it doesn't sounds horrible. We'll have to see if all the other stuff they are getting is enough to compensate for this lose.


What it does is spend up rolling, because rolling FNP agaisnt multiwound models with multidamage weapons was a little too slow, and thats a positive.

Voss wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
2 wound plague marines with this vs. 1 wound plague marines with old DG still are more resilient vs. Bolters, Heavy Bolters, even Mortal Wounds, etc.. .

Seems good, and most importantly, less dice-rolling to get through stuff!!!

It's bad. The comparison isn't with 'old 1W plague marines,' it's with all other marines (that also have 2 wounds), since that is the norm for all marines.
Most of the time, disgustingly resilient does nothing. And plasma weapons were already on the decline since it's harder to sheninangans around the natural one, and the platforms you can have plasma on went up in cost.

Yes, it helps against heavy bolters. But... The reality is, DR has been their signature rule. For it to do nothing at all except against a handful of very specific weapons (and a plethora of exceptions that you don't see very often and should have just been standard weapons)... Feels bad.

So far the rules changes for DG have been minor tweaks and one big nerf. Nothing that adds to their ability to kill enemies or take objectives, just a light utility change and a durability downgrade.

---
It is nice for vehicles (except dreads, since it's redundant with the rule that dreads got innately for free), especially the ones that didn't get DR previously, and probably the terminators. But for line death guard it's a big hit.

Sure. If Eldar, Dark Eldar, GSC and Sisters and all those all go up to 2 wounds, and things like Repentia Chainswords and Shining Spears lances and all such things go up to flat damage 3 minimum, you'd be right.

As long as this is not the case, this is perhaps the most insane buff to an army in a decade.

I appreciate that we’re all stuck talking about Plague Marine buffs. It’s not like the increased toughness is negated by Lt rerolls on small arms.

The bigger issue is that 50% of the time, when a D6 weapon lands an unsaved wound on a daemon engine that daemon engine is worse off than before. For new melta, it’s immediately, always worse in melta range. Was there a major, competitive list that didn’t feature 500+ points of daemon engines?

And Morty is at 490 points still, giving a slight indication that there will be no points drops. I can’t imagine Blighthaulers not going up significantly with Nu-Melta, an extra wound, and a 3+ to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also having a hard time imagining that Contagion is straight buffs each turn given the course of this week.

Uh, Plague Marines are most certainly more resilient than regular loyalist marines.

Have we all collectively forgotten that they are T5?

People sure think that Duty Eternal is strong, so what if we gave it to everying in DG with 2 wounds or more?

For Death Guard infantry, this is a buff (except vs mortal wounds) when taking into account that CSM of all stripes are getting an extra wound.

The only real question now is what are they going to do about Poxwalkers? Will the Plague Surgeon now give a 6+++ aura like the Apothecary?

Melta is stronger than before against new DR, but I think that's an issue with Melta currently being undercosted compared to how much they buffed it in 9th.

I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

2 years of constant complaining to GW that they made high damage weapons suck compared to mid damage high RoF weapons, and then when they finally start going in the other direction, you have all these complaints...

D2 is the most common damage profile on a weapon right now, next to Dd3. This is an incredibly huge buff, with the single caveat that it creates a MW sized vulnerable point.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

And Morty is at 490 points still, giving a slight indication that there will be no points drops. I can’t imagine Blighthaulers not going up significantly with Nu-Melta, an extra wound, and a 3+ to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also having a hard time imagining that Contagion is straight buffs each turn given the course of this week.

Gw buffed tons of weapons across imperium with zero effect on points.

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

It's a small window in terms of numbers but D2 and D3 weapons are like almost half of all the weapons in the game at this point (1D3 counts here too) so it actually effects a very wide swath of things.

Spoletta wrote:
2 years of constant complaining to GW that they made high damage weapons suck compared to mid damage high RoF weapons, and then when they finally start going in the other direction, you have all these complaints...

D2 is the most common damage profile on a weapon right now, next to Dd3. This is an incredibly huge buff, with the single caveat that it creates a MW sized vulnerable point.

Thats more a problem with Mortal Wounds being a mechanic to begin with, especially with the fact EVERY Psyker power does it in some variation (which is terribly boring, as most are just a worse Smite).
Also this is a pretty consistent buff against Custodes melee, as 2/3 of the time they will fail to roll a successful D3 to kill a Plague Marine in melee, and slaying a Terminator in one go is outright impossible. Point costs will determine everything, but it's a refreshing change compared to randumb rolling.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
I appreciate that we’re all stuck talking about Plague Marine buffs. It’s not like the increased toughness is negated by Lt rerolls on small arms.

The bigger issue is that 50% of the time, when a D6 weapon lands an unsaved wound on a daemon engine that daemon engine is worse off than before. For new melta, it’s immediately, always worse in melta range. Was there a major, competitive list that didn’t feature 500+ points of daemon engines?

And Morty is at 490 points still, giving a slight indication that there will be no points drops. I can’t imagine Blighthaulers not going up significantly with Nu-Melta, an extra wound, and a 3+ to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also having a hard time imagining that Contagion is straight buffs each turn given the course of this week.

I think the best performing list was 3 plagueburst crawlers and then a snot ton of Nurglings and some infantry. I dunno how much PBC's cost. They are worse against melta now.