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 Jidmah wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I care about the topic, I don't care for the comparison to an intercessor.

If you want some fun let's compare them point for point against some firewarriors or other pointless things.

2 wound 5++ never existed, they are flat better than they were and no they're not intercessors.

They are flat worse than what they were if GW puts a 24-25 point pricetag on them. Which is what people are discussing.

Oh, and they aren't tactical marines either.

Flat out worse is difficult to say, they die to 3 damage attacks now, they have a not insignificant chance to die to 2 damage attacks now, which is a literal impossibility in a month. 50% hike is too much likely though I agree, 22 seems a more likely figure.

Spoletta wrote:
+1 T is at the very least a 3 point stat, going from T4 to T5 is a huge step.

Hilarious. Got anything to back that up?

-1 damage applies in this case only to D2 weapons, so it is worth only a couple of points.

Codex: Space Marines says it is worth 0 points, according to all dread datasheets.

-1Ap and rr1 to wound in melee is easily another point if not 2.

Right, exactly like the extra points assault intercessors are paying, right?

Better weapon selection is kind of a wash with -1 move.

Tacticals both have larger and better weapon choices AND more movement.

This is assuming that hateful assault is not a thing, in which case they also have 1 more attack for 2 points more.

And ten thousand points for griffindor.

Your math doesn't even add up for Space Marine units, so how about you stop posting this gak?


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Dudeface wrote:
Flat out worse is difficult to say, they die to 3 damage attacks now, they have a not insignificant chance to die to 2 damage attacks now, which is a literal impossibility in a month. 50% hike is too much likely though I agree, 22 seems a more likely figure.

An extra wound is worth no more than 3 points if there is no 5++ behind it.

Talking half damage from shots that do exactly 2 damage is not worth a single point. If it were an optional upgrade for 1 point it would not be taken even once.

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
It may be a grab bag of things that activate on turn one and with buffs on turns thereafter.

My guess is that it will be similar to the DE power from pain rule but plague themed.

Yes it would, especially when D2 is one of the most prolific damage profiles LOL. Stop acting butthurt when the 5+++ wasn't even that good vs D3+ weapons for the Marines. Oh yeah, and your vehicles were already fine vs Melta because of the 5++ they already, which denies one of the main selling points of the Melta to begin with.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
+1 T is at the very least a 3 point stat, going from T4 to T5 is a huge step.

Hilarious. Got anything to back that up?

-1 damage applies in this case only to D2 weapons, so it is worth only a couple of points.

Codex: Space Marines says it is worth 0 points, according to all dread datasheets.

-1Ap and rr1 to wound in melee is easily another point if not 2.

Right, exactly like the extra points assault intercessors are paying, right?

Better weapon selection is kind of a wash with -1 move.

Tacticals both have larger and better weapon choices AND more movement.

This is assuming that hateful assault is not a thing, in which case they also have 1 more attack for 2 points more.

And ten thousand points for griffindor.

Your math doesn't even add up for Space Marine units, so how about you stop posting this gak?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Flat out worse is difficult to say, they die to 3 damage attacks now, they have a not insignificant chance to die to 2 damage attacks now, which is a literal impossibility in a month. 50% hike is too much likely though I agree, 22 seems a more likely figure.

An extra wound is worth no more than 3 points if there is no 5++ behind it.

Talking half damage from shots that do exactly 2 damage is not worth a single point. If it were an optional upgrade for 1 point it would not be taken even once.

Soo surviving overcharged plasma shots is worthless? And a t4 wound is 3 points but a t5 should be the same?

Your wild arguments are pulling facets of 3-4 different units and applying them to something abstractly. Find a comparable stat line or profile for 1 unit you want to compare against and stick with that. Intercessors as not aren't the most direct comparison but its better than pretending they should have assault intercessors melee with dreadnought damage rules and tacticals upgrades all at once.

Correct, because the opponent can just not overcharge and kill you at zero risk anyways. And then there is the issue of many armies, including marines, simply not bringing any plasma to the table.

I did the comparison to both intercessors and tactical marines earlier in this thread. Both put plague marines at 23-24 points, under the assumption of a 50% increased durability against all weapons and mortal wounds.
Instead they now have a rule that does nothing against the vast majority of attacks they will ever suffer.

Soo surviving overcharged plasma shots is worthless?

It isn't worthless, its circumstantial.

Its not unlike having Preferred Enemy: Plasmaguns.

Getting the months old wound buff that's universal to all marines (eventually) is just catching up to the standard. Losing 5+++ is bad. It doesn't matter that they're happening at the same time.

 Jidmah wrote:
Correct, because the opponent can just not overcharge and kill you at zero risk anyways.

Before:
-Not overcharged- average of 1.5 wounds to kill
-Overcharged- average of 1.15 wounds to kill

Now:
-Not overcharged- 2 wounds to kill
-Overcharged- no point

Realistically DG have become nearly twice as hard to kill with plasma, at the cost of not provoking overcharge, which never really mattered because anyone using plasma has a source of re-roll 1s.

 Jidmah wrote:
Instead they now have a rule that does nothing against the vast majority of attacks they will ever suffer.

Bolters, heavy bolters, and their equivalents have to get through 2 wounds instead of the effective 1.5 they had before. 33% buff.

I don't know why people are comparing to an assumed statline that never existed rather than the actual stats DG currently have. W2 with Duty Eternal is straight up better than W1/5+++ against everything short of D3+ weapons. If the points don't change- and based on the SM and Necron codices, they probably won't- they'll be in a much better spot than current.

 catbarf wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Correct, because the opponent can just not overcharge and kill you at zero risk anyways.

Before:
-Not overcharged- average of 1.5 wounds to kill
-Overcharged- average of 1.15 wounds to kill

Now:
-Not overcharged- 2 wounds to kill
-Overcharged- no point

Realistically DG have become nearly twice as hard to kill with plasma, at the cost of not provoking overcharge, which never really mattered because anyone using plasma has a source of re-roll 1s.

 Jidmah wrote:
Instead they now have a rule that does nothing against the vast majority of attacks they will ever suffer.

Bolters, heavy bolters, and their equivalents have to get through 2 wounds instead of the effective 1.5 they had before. 33% buff.

I don't know why people are comparing to an assumed statline that never existed rather than the actual stats DG currently have. W2 with Duty Eternal is straight up better than W1/5+++ against everything short of D3+ weapons. If the points don't change- and based on the SM and Necron codices, they probably won't- they'll be in a much better spot than current.

DR was nerfed.

Points depending, the W2 change might be a net buff, but that specific rule was nerfed.

I don't know why people are comparing to an assumed statline that never existed rather than the actual stats DG currently have. They're getting tougher. If the points don't change- and based on the SM and Necron codices, they probably won't- they'll be in a much better spot than current.

Because that's the statline for marines now. It does NOT matter that it never existed 'before,' its the norm for the edition in which this codex is happening. The new normal is two wound marines, coupling that with taking 5+++ away is a nerf.

And marine points did change. Tacticals went from 15 in the munitorium book to 18 with 2W in the codex. Slapping a similar increase on DG when they're losing their signature ability would be real bad.

So, mathematically, it's now easier for melta Eradiactors to kill my vehicles.

Voss wrote:

I don't know why people are comparing to an assumed statline that never existed rather than the actual stats DG currently have. They're getting tougher. If the points don't change- and based on the SM and Necron codices, they probably won't- they'll be in a much better spot than current.

Because that's the statline for marines now. It does NOT matter that it never existed 'before.' The new normal is two wound marines, coupling that with taking 5+++ away is a nerf.

And marine points did change. Tacticals went from 15 in the munitorium book to 18 with 2W in the codex. Slapping a similar increase on DG when they're losing their signature ability would be real bad.

You mean they changed their signature ability, gave them better melee and can now rapidfire bolters at max range if they move, the extra wound and 1 special rule yet to be seen. How is that not worth 3 points?

 Jidmah wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I did a quick calculation of Plague Marines against Intercessors.

They now do exactly same damage to each other if they have equal models..

Overall its a nerf have -1 D over having 5+++ across the army

Against 1D weapons - Worse
Against 2D - 3D weapons - Better
Against 4D or more weapons - Worse (Old DR saved 1.333 wounds, New DR saves 1 wound But it is more consistent)
Against Mortal wounds Worse as it does nothing.

That is quite a small window when it's an improvement

This is pretty much it. New DR is better against 2 damage, same against 3 damage and worse against everything else.

With this in mind a plague marine better not cost a single point more than an intercessor.

So T5 should be a free upgrade to troops?

 puma713 wrote:
So, mathematically, it's now easier for melta Eradiactors to kill my vehicles.

Let's be honest they needed that buff, can't have our army actually be durable like they are supposed to be. Better they are the same flavorless killy power armor dudes as everyone else.

And for the folks who think we're salty now, just wait until the points values for Poxwalkers land after we find out that Contagions/etc requires a mono list.

I keep seeing this line of thinking here and in other corners of the internet: 2W 5+++ PMs never existed, so why is there any saltiness about them not existing now?

You can compare stats that you expected to have with stats that you actually received. We expected 5+++ or comparable and received -1 damage. In those regards, Disgustingly Resilient was nerfed. I see a lot of people conflating a wound increase with a change to DR. The wound increase would've happened anyway, no matter how DR changed. Therefore, in that vaccuum, DR was nerfed. Of course, we haven't seen the whole codex, so for all we know, Plague Surgeons or T3 in Contagions gives 5+++.

If Nurgle Daemons end up with the same rule, Plaguebearers got screwed.

The biggest nerf I see for DR is not for plague marines or plague terminators (both of those will be good agaisnt the kind of weapons that are used to kill them) but for the bigger stuff where 5++ was basically +33% wounds.

For everyone finding it so hard to understand why we are comparing using 2 wounds for both old and new DR I'll try to explain.

The entire argument is around is NEW DR better or worse than OLD DR.

The only way to do a fair comparison on ANYTHING is to make everything else constant.

That's why we have to use the same statline.

Anyone who has done any sort of scientific comparisons knows this.

You can use 1 wound PMs or 2 wound PMs.

Or if you like you can use Morty.

You just have to make sure that everything except the thing you are evaluating stays constant.


After that feel free to compare the entire change of the model to say whether they have got better or worse, but that is much more difficult to do without a new points value

 puma713 wrote:
I keep seeing this line of thinking here and in other corners of the internet: 2W 5+++ PMs never existed, so why is there any saltiness about them not existing now?

You can compare stats that you expected to have with stats that you actually received. We expected 5+++ or comparable and received -1 damage. In those regards, Disgustingly Resilient was nerfed. I see a lot of people conflating a wound increase with a change to DR. The wound increase would've happened anyway, no matter how DR changed. Therefore, in that vaccuum, DR was nerfed. Of course, we haven't seen the whole codex, so for all we know, Plague Surgeons or T3 in Contagions gives 5++.

The issue is a large amount of these claims are also toy throwing "stupid gw I didn't get what I wanted they should all be free now because my plague marines only require 33% more bolter rounds to kill, render d2 almost pointless and d3+ didn't matter anyway".

If it was "oh it sucks my daemon engines might take a couple more wounds a turn" fair, but it's actually more a whinefest they're not point for point better than Intercessors, when we don't have a points value.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
2W T5 3+ -1Damage on an obsec platform (durability matters more than firepower) can't be cheap, that's for sure.

I expect at least 24 points.

By what percentage of points did loyalist dreads increase when they got -1 to damage?

Yeah, thought so.

With this change, plague marines are 20 points at best.

I wouldnt put them at 20ppm... Their toughness is what you are paying for. Toughness 5 is far superior to toughness 4 as it effects Str 4, 5, 8 and 9. They now have the same amount of wounds as a Firstborn/Pimaris and the same amount of attacks if they still have Hateful Assault. From their previous iteration they are tougher vs damage 1 weapons from the extra wound they received. Vs damage 2 they are more durable than previously with the 5+++. Vs everything else they arent and thats fine. Rolling 6 5+++ on a 1 wound PM was stupid and a waste of time. It was a hail mary throw.

An extra AP on a Bolt Rifle is cool and dandy but it doesnt make them better than Plague Marines who ignore 16% more wound rolls from being 1 higher toughness than the weapon firing and the 30" is fine but a lot of the time the fighting is in the middle of the board either 24" or in combat. And arent most if not all loadouts for Plague Marines are combat based with flails and knives? Its rare that ive seen people tool them up with plasma or Blight Launchers when they have more punch in melee.

Id put PM at 24ppm. We dont know what else the codex will bring or change, but that is a fair price. Im not buying my Plague Marine for his Bolter. Im buying him for his durability and objective holding abilities. We could see a rise in D3 weapons to combat this like Heavy Plasma Incinerators on Hell Blasters but last I checked there werent that many D3 weapons out there (not damage d3 but flat 3).

Now DR is weaker on vehicles I believe. A PBC has what 12 wounds? So on average the old DR would provide him with 4-5 extra wounds yes? now not so much as its dependent on damage per attack. Damage 2 and 3 sure he is tougher, 4 and above he isnt and we are seeing more and more D3+D3 or 4 or 6.

 Galas wrote:
The biggest nerf I see for DR is not for plague marines or plague terminators (both of those will be good agaisnt the kind of weapons that are used to kill them) but for the bigger stuff where 5++ was basically +33% wounds.

More like 50% extra wounds actually, so this is a big nerf to them.

Voss wrote:
Because that's the statline for marines now. It does NOT matter that it never existed 'before,' its the norm for the edition in which this codex is happening. The new normal is two wound marines, coupling that with taking 5+++ away is a nerf.

Calling an objective buff a nerf, just because you didn't get buffed as much on the whole as another army, seems really petty.

Plague Marines are now actually significantly harder to kill than Intercessors, rather than being roughly comparable. This is where they should have been all along. Take a step back, stop comparing to the W2/5+++ profile that never existed, stop trying to be envious of W1 Marines, and look at it objectively. You're now Marines that are T5 and reduce incoming damage by 1. That is not a bad place for Plague Marines to be, and it's significantly better than they were.

Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

I'm curious what rule we'll get tomorrow. Maybe a preview of DG's equivalent of doctrines.

 catbarf wrote:

Voss wrote:
Because that's the statline for marines now. It does NOT matter that it never existed 'before,' its the norm for the edition in which this codex is happening. The new normal is two wound marines, coupling that with taking 5+++ away is a nerf.

Calling an objective buff a nerf, just because you didn't get buffed as much on the whole as another army, seems really petty.

They still got more mileage out of 2 wounds than marines do, even with old dr they could die to d2 weapons. Again against d3+ the outcome is the same if it was -1 damage or DR the bulk of the time.

 catbarf wrote:

Voss wrote:
Because that's the statline for marines now. It does NOT matter that it never existed 'before,' its the norm for the edition in which this codex is happening. The new normal is two wound marines, coupling that with taking 5+++ away is a nerf.

Calling an objective buff a nerf, just because you didn't get buffed as much on the whole as another army, seems really petty.

Yeah you have to remember this isn't a marine vs marine game, although it may seem that way at times. Sure, DG feel like they lost something when they come up against other marines, but they gained a wound against every other army that didn't. And armies tailored to deal D2 against marines will have increased difficulty against DG. It's a nice attempt at paper-rock-scissors, the problem is with tournaments when over half the people bring rock and paper runs out of time after turn 3.

I really don't get all these calls for such high points values.

That bit of extra toughness is great, but it's not as good as people seem to think.

Let's just look at PMs now. In my opinion they are already overcosted. They are rarely used in any sort of number for that reason.

Increasing points by so much has to also take into account that their firepower is being reduced per point by quite a lot.

At 24ppm they are being placed between an intercessor and heavy intercessor points wise and quite frankly they are no where near that level of good.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Against D1 or on models with many wounds, 5+ FNP is a 50% wound increase, effectively. (Assuming average rolls-of course you can roll hot or cold, sometimes.)

Is it? How so? If you have 1 wound and you need to pass 1 5+++ to stay alive, you have a 33% of succeeding? So the 3rd Plague Marine in the squad would surive the 1 damage attack if 3 failed their armour saves. Now they dont have to bank on rolling a 5+++ to pass the 1 damage as the model instead has 2 wounds. Ive seen it way too much that 5+++ either roll hot or not, whole 10 man squads failing to make a single DR save. Ive also seen when they make pretty much all of them and both cases it wasnt fun for someone and just wasted time rolling.

2 wounds ignoring 1 damage has existed before with Aberrants and they werent blessed with a 3+ save or toughness 5. I think this version of DR is fine for the infantry (D3 and above should vapourise anything man sized with the exception of daemonically inbued Possessed and exceptionally durable Blightlords/Deathshroud. Where DR fails is on vehicles which it looks like everyone is agreeing with. Great vs those D2/3 shots coming in but not so much for those 4+ that come through. You could probably hope that a Mephytic Blight Hauler could survive 2 shots from a Mehnir, now it isnt even possible if they both go through the invun.

I would arguee Intercessors at 20 ppm are too cheap but what do I know...