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 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Ah ok. My mistake on the plate. It did however get severely nerfed.

No, it didn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
With the added attack in the new codex, yes. But that's a change to the PM, not the weapon. Had the weapon been the same as the old, it would have been maximum of 9 attacks. The weapon got nerfed, the PM got an attack boost. And you can only have one of each special weapon per 5 models. That means TAllyman is next to useless.
Yeah, the strat is 2cp. Not 1. Do you still think it's amazing?

So you are whining about a net buff to a unit because a single weapon got worse?

Oh, "tallyman is next to useless" is just more evidence that you are throwing a tantrum without even having read the codex. I suggest you do that now. Getting that angry without even having a reason to do so is not healthy.

So, how is it not a nerf that it can only cause a single MW now?

No, I'm "whining" about the nerfs, not the buffs.

So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
What in the book could compensate?

Had it been d3 still, they'd have 3-9 attacks. Sure, they'll always get the happy medium, but never 9.

Old codex was 2-6, new codex is 6. That is not a nerf. I suggest stopping this discussion, as you clearly know neither codex nor 9th edition's rules well enough to compare them.

What I hate most though is the lack of trample. Sorry... "Carry-over". One flail wound will ever only kill a maximum of one single model.

I guess you will have to compensate for the two less one wound models you kill on average with the extra wounds you get from knives having AP-1 and better wound rolls now.
In other news, the flail is better against marines now.

Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

It's great that the flails are better against marines! And I'll be happy for it the one single time per year I play against space marines.

Wow

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

So you are moaning about something you never had despite the end results being better than the prior version of the model (aka Plague Marine with Flail)?

Stop wailing over what could have been and start looking at the upgrade you did get. In a pure Death Guard army, the is nothing but Win here.

 alextroy wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Yeah, it's 6 because the weapon profile changed. Had the weapon profile still been D3 attacks, it would have been 3-9 attacks. I know a lot of people think that a solid guaranteed medium is the shizzle, but to a lot of people the chance of getting 9 attacks and risking getting 3 attacks is better than guaranteed 6.

So you are moaning about something you never had despite the end results being better than the prior version of the model (aka Plague Marine with Flail)?

Stop wailing over what could have been and start looking at the upgrade you did get. In a pure Death Guard army, the is nothing but Win here.

I am "moaning" about the weapon itself getting nerfed. I had the old weapon profile before.
The one extra attack is on the model carrying it, NOT the weapon itself.
The wepaon got nerfed, not the model carrying it.

No matter how you spin it, you are whining about something getting better.

Especially considering that the +1 attack is specifically to flails, great plague cleavers and power fists. All other weapons already had it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So, how is it not a nerf that it can only cause a single MW now?

4+ chance, and you had to successfully roll a save first. More often than not, the daemon prince was simply killed without it triggering even once, and it almost never caused more than 1MW to anyone.
Now it's a 2+ chance after failing a save, so it's likely going to trigger every time you are in combat.

And in any case, no one ever take the plate for any reason but having a 2+ armor save. So even if this turns out to be weaker than before, it doesn't matter at all, and it's for sure not "severely nerfed".

Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

I am suggesting to not complain about a codex you haven't read.
Hint: The tallyman has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

I am suggesting to not complain about a codex you haven't read.
Hint: The tallyman has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

I care about Marines regardless of Loyalist or Traitor. You should really be appalled by those unit entries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you ARE the one that chose to die on the hill regarding no Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, so what do YOU know?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So, how is it not a nerf that it can only cause a single MW now?

4+ chance, and you had to successfully roll a save first. More often than not, the daemon prince was simply killed without it triggering even once, and it almost never caused more than 1MW to anyone.
Now it's a 2+ chance after failing a save, so it's likely going to trigger every time you are in combat.

And in any case, no one ever take the plate for any reason but having a 2+ armor save. So even if this turns out to be weaker than before, it doesn't matter at all, and it's for sure not "severely nerfed".

No, more often than not, the DP reflected 4+ MW's back before getting killed.You based your statemnt on your experience, and mine is from my experience.
Yes, the chance of doing any amount of MW's is higher, but it will never be more than 2 per long ongoing fight at maximum. I once got charged by some gaunts. He managed to hit and wound the DP 9 times. 8 of them got reflected back. That's rare, I know, but he regularly did 3-6 MW's back in each instance of CC.

I too take the plate for the 2+ armour save. THe MW's were a really nice deterrent and a great bonus. Now that awesome bonus and deterrent is a limp "meh" at the most extreme best. It's hardly even worth taking anymore.
So, yes, it's extremely nerfed.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
So you suggest Tally is gonna run behind the Rhino filled with CC marines, or are you suggesting the CC marines footslog up the board with Tally close by, only for the PM's to be shot off the table while advancing or having to spend command points on strats to keep them safe?

I am suggesting to not complain about a codex you haven't read.
Hint: The tallyman has changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

I care about Marines regardless of Loyalist or Traitor.

Do you now?

You should really be appalled by those unit entries.

Sorry, I'm too busy with figuring out all the awesome stuff in the new codex to get mad about having to change squad markings on something like six special weapon marines.
Heck, this mess of a rule even make squads of 10 much better, so you do all that being appalled thing, while I'm building lists so I can play the new codex tomorrow.

Of course you ARE the one that chose to die on the hill regarding no Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, so what do YOU know?

Well, considering the glaring absence of nurgle daemons or even a single reference to summoning, I do know now that I was absolutely right on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Only one way to find out.

 Jidmah wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Only one way to find out.

Incorrect.

Ah, I guess you are right. You could just whine about it being nerfed and someone will tell you the proper rules. Good night, sir.

Lets just talk about all the goodies shall we???

The negatives are so few and inconsequential there is no point in talking about them.

To me it seems the LOC is a worse LOV.
LOV has better buffs and interaction, has a strong shooting option and still seems a beast in CC.

The interaction with DS/BL's seems amazing.

The LOC having a +3" contagion range isn't an ability to sneeze at but does it beat out the LOV for a slot? im not sure.

Ok, late to the party but, this load out none sense, alright I didn't rage when they took away full zombie lists, I was like hey, I plague marines that's ok.

I didn't complain when they stripped the blight hauler of every special rule almost, even though I only got them to give their smoke screen for advancing troops, ok they probably just don't like it doesn't cost a ton of money to buy, oh and over costing out the rear end. Fine.

Seriously though GW these weapon loadouts are off the rails stupid.

All I read on here is " Well, just get more durr. " Ok, but my plague marines are the old models, they didn't have blight launchers, most of them are also metal, I didn't run " The cheese " they don't even have " the cheese " they have plasmas and meltas, that's it. Now I have to run them 10 as opposed to 7, which I did because I actually cared about the number.

Somehow that is power gamering yet a 10 man squad can put out even more fire power now. How is that not power gaming ? With my 3 plasma guns and 2 blight launchers with probably even more tossed in now ? That seems stronger to me.

This is so stupid and I'm not even touching on the terminator kit which is equally moronic.

I was very happy, this all stings and really annoys me. Sorry guys with combis, get screwed, sorry favored number squads.

Hell my only good thing here is the surgeon is actually worth a darn but the bell guy goes back to sucking and our HQ options is one fighty person and some wizards, pretty cheap there Conehead.

I don't know I went from very happy to that old GW feeling with the information drop.

Don't even get me started on that sweet LoV to help our plague engines, by help them I mean do jack squat with them.

Oh Baby don't hurt me no more.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about that. The real atrocity is the wargear options for for Blightlords and Plague Marines anyway. Poor layout and illogical.

I am painfully aware that you do not care about death guard.

I care about Marines regardless of Loyalist or Traitor.

Do you now?

You should really be appalled by those unit entries.

Sorry, I'm too busy with figuring out all the awesome stuff in the new codex to get mad about having to change squad markings on something like six special weapon marines.
Heck, this mess of a rule even make squads of 10 much better, so you do all that being appalled thing, while I'm building lists so I can play the new codex tomorrow.

Of course you ARE the one that chose to die on the hill regarding no Nurgle Daemons with Death Guard, so what do YOU know?

Well, considering the glaring absence of nurgle daemons or even a single reference to summoning, I do know now that I was absolutely right on that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kall3m0n wrote:
Oh? Has his aura extended to 72"? Or can all marines re-roll all hits in CC as long as he's on the table? Can Rhinos carry 11 models now? Does he have fly now so he can keep up with a Rhino? Or does he even have a bike? (I really wish we had bikes) Or has he lost that rule all-together and is taken for a completely different reason now? Do we get a new model that makes PM's re-roll all CC hits that doesn't take up Rhino space?

Only one way to find out.

LOL awesome stuff, just like when you said that War of the Spider was "awesome stuff", via making you pay CP for abilities that should've been standard to begin with. Yeah no, it's pathetically defending GW on their decisions.

COLD CASH wrote:
Lets just talk about all the goodies shall we???

The negatives are so few and inconsequential there is no point in talking about them.

To me it seems the LOC is a worse LOV.
LOV has better buffs and interaction, has a strong shooting option and still seems a beast in CC.

The interaction with DS/BL's seems amazing.

The LOC having a +3" contagion range isn't an ability to sneeze at but does it beat out the LOV for a slot? im not sure.

I've been wondering the same thing. In fairness there's very little difference between them. I don't think the LoV offers Blightlords very much (anything, really), as his aura only affects ranged plague weapons. Deathshroud would get more out of it, & the LoV's weapon matches their range. The LoC has some serious beatstick potential though with some of the relics on offer and the 3" boost to Droning coming out of deep strike has some serious potential imo.

Pity the LoV doesn't have the Daemon Engine ability GW said/his codex description said he'd get to differentiate him, but they're both great anyway so who cares

Guys, this is a total codex revamp. When this happens, everything changes. The feel of deathguard is definitely still there. In fact, I think the deathguard codex has turned deathguard into a more powerful army while being fluffier to boot. Because wow, we get contagions now, and there is even a secondary objective to spread our disease!

We are still super resilient, just in a different way from before. We are still slow, but we have tons of other stuff. From what I have seen so far, we are definitely not the most shooty army out there though we do some have ranged goodies. But we pack a mean punch in close combat. You do NOT want to get up close to a deathguard army (Our debilating contagions should tell you that much already).

So when the codex transforms the entire army like that. You just relearn your army. Don't cry that you can't run 20 combat plague marines anymore. Or 10 combi plasma blightlords. Just learn the new stuff.

There is actually some lore basis behind having different weapon loadouts. I remember reading how chaos space marines in general just evolve mutations on their gear or outright take the best gear they find on the battlefield. So, the biggest and meanest get the best gear.

It always stuck me as weird that a plague marine or blightlord squad would be so .. "uniform". mutations are wildly different for a reason. And you don't get to find neatly exactly 10 combi plasma for every single blightlord in your squad. (And even if you did, there will be that blightlord who insists on wanting to use a blight launcher instead cos it has fused with his hand).

Anyway, I for one would rather embrace the new condex (there is no going back anyway) and learn to roll with that instead of crying that my old army doesn't work anymore.

Guys, this is a total codex revamp.

It really isn't though. It tweaked some loadouts and the adjusted the stats of some units (most to bring them in line with the current standard). But pretty much everything is in the same role with the same general theme and intent.

A revamp doesn't usually invalidate unit options.
I can only think of a few- ork boyz losing burnas (or further back, losing access to basic weapons for 'orky' ones), space wolves (and others) losing hand flamers in the switch from 2nd to 3rd. Dark eldar gaining, then losing, their random 'elite' unit versions.
Even if it was somehow normal, that doesn't make it OK.

Telling people to lump it because they're unhappy that multiple units need to be rebuilt or replaced is just needlessly callous.

'Relearning the army' isn't the point. That happens with every new edition and codex. Rebuilding entire units (or entire FOC slots) is a time/money/enthusiasm expenditure, and its perfectly reasonable for people to be unhappy about it.

Even codex updates have often resulted in units rising and falling in terms of power level in the "meta". I don't see how you can't call this a total codex revamp. lol I think you will find very few people who agree with you that they only tweaked a few things...

If they made the change when the new kits came out people would have accepted it. The change itself is one thing, it is the execution that grinds on people. And why wouldn't it; you get these new models and go through all the extra work to kitbash/convert/bits gather a loadout you like that was 100% supported in the rules with brand new kits and a few years later those fully painted models are no longer valid.

I get people comparing the pros and cons of the new system verses the old. I do. But that is missing the point of what aggravates people, and saying something like:

 Jidmah wrote:
Ah, I guess you are right. You could just whine about it being nerfed and someone will tell you the proper rules. Good night, sir.

Is both completely insensitive to a legitimate concern and a demonstrated refusal to even make an effort to understand it. It is not hard to understand why people are upset, the concept and reasoning is not complex, it takes little thought to realize 'oh hey, that does suck for those affected in such a way' and while such may be the standard of the internet it remains disappointing to see the number of people unwilling to put even a minimal amount of thought into the matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even codex updates have often resulted in units rising and falling in terms of power level in the "meta".

And people are not (nearly as) upset when that happens, which should be an immediate indicator that this circumstance is different. Which it is; a unit going from dominant to sub-par is still a unit that can be legally used within the rules.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even codex updates have often resulted in units rising and falling in terms of power level in the "meta". I don't see how you can't call this a total codex revamp. lol I think you will find very few people who agree with you that they only tweaked a few things...

OK, this should be straightforward: A change in power level with a new codex is _not the same_ as invalidating parts of people's collections. One is normal, and happens on a regular basis. The other is rare, and fairly offensive.

As for not calling it a total revamp? I see no reason to. Plague marines with still be resilient and have pretty indifferent shooting (by current standards). Yes, they're more dangerous at close range, and that's a buff. But the nature of the unit isn't _different_. It just made life more difficult for some people who now need to rebuild models or units.

When orks went from generalists (BS and WS 3 with S3 and 1A) to focused close combat units with bad shooting? Tossing out bolters, lascannons and plasma guns for the current 'orky weapons?' _That_ was a total revamp. If someone wants to claim a 'total revamp,' then the changes need to match the scale of what happened to orks. Not just mock people for getting some of their collection invalidated, models they spent time, money and effort on.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Guys, this is a total codex revamp. When this happens, everything changes. The feel of deathguard is definitely still there. In fact, I think the deathguard codex has turned deathguard into a more powerful army while being fluffier to boot. Because wow, we get contagions now, and there is even a secondary objective to spread our disease!

We are still super resilient, just in a different way from before. We are still slow, but we have tons of other stuff. From what I have seen so far, we are definitely not the most shooty army out there though we do some have ranged goodies. But we pack a mean punch in close combat. You do NOT want to get up close to a deathguard army (Our debilating contagions should tell you that much already).

So when the codex transforms the entire army like that. You just relearn your army. Don't cry that you can't run 20 combat plague marines anymore. Or 10 combi plasma blightlords. Just learn the new stuff.

There is actually some lore basis behind having different weapon loadouts. I remember reading how chaos space marines in general just evolve mutations on their gear or outright take the best gear they find on the battlefield. So, the biggest and meanest get the best gear.

It always stuck me as weird that a plague marine or blightlord squad would be so .. "uniform". mutations are wildly different for a reason. And you don't get to find neatly exactly 10 combi plasma for every single blightlord in your squad. (And even if you did, there will be that blightlord who insists on wanting to use a blight launcher instead cos it has fused with his hand).

Anyway, I for one would rather embrace the new condex (there is no going back anyway) and learn to roll with that instead of crying that my old army doesn't work anymore.

It isn't crying when you have money tossed away, or time wasted for no good reason other than "because ". Plenty of other armies still have options not in the box and honestly many of these restraints are just dumb, especially when they aren't uniform. I get you just want to put on them rose colored shades and hail the coming of the new goodness but lets be honest, some of these changes are just not good. Why is 5 man with one blight launhcer and one plasma gun ok but two blights and two plasma bad ? It makes no sense other than punishing old squad set ups and/or making you have to go 10 men to not be annoyed with the set up.

Luckily I never made a CC group or I'd probably be annoyed there as well as honestly dual knives just feels cool but, who cares about time spent modding or money spent buying extras right ?

This annoyance isn't about good or bad it's about wasted time, effort and money for some.

So sure I'll stop being pissed about it when those who think its so amazing, buy me new models to alter my build and have them make sense and refund me my wasted time and effort. Otherwise I have every right to complain about the crap I think sucks in this book.

As well, I'm not saying the whole book is garbage I like a lot of it, but these few things I hate I really do dislike and feel they are a wrong path to go down.

Just watched a bunch of battle reports with new codex. Seriously if my TS get a codec half as good as this I will be crazy happy.

WTF people who plays this game thinking GW isn't gonna invalidate stuff?

Knights?

Iron hands Executioners?

Centurion's?

Wulfen?

Predators, vindicators, thudd guns, deredeo's, leviathan's the list goes on and on.

Get over it seriously if you haven't figured out its part of how the game is then what world have you been living in.

Wow. Crazy that people are comfortable with GW invalidating their time and money.

There’s a HUGE difference between making a powerful/underpowered codex through rules changes and completely making their fething army illegal to play because of unit options.

I hope your next army is completely invalidated because of a rules change, then we’ll see what kind of song you’ll sing.

COLD CASH wrote:
WTF people who plays this game thinking GW isn't gonna invalidate stuff?

Knights?

Iron hands Executioners?

Centurion's?

Wulfen?

Predators, vindicators, thudd guns, deredeo's, leviathan's the list goes on and on.

Get over it seriously if you haven't figured out its part of how the game is then what world have you been living in.

Knights are still fieldable.
Iron Hands are still a faction that can take Executioners.
Centurions are still in the Dex.
Wulfen didn't go anywhere.
None of those units except MAYBE the Thudd Guns are actually gone. I just can't find them on the MFM, so not sure on them.

Every single other unit you listed still exists and is 100% able to be fielded. It might not be GOOD anymore, but it's not illegal.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Wow. Crazy that people are comfortable with GW invalidating their time and money.

There’s a HUGE difference between making a powerful/underpowered codex through rules changes and completely making their fething army illegal to play because of unit options.

I hope your next army is completely invalidated because of a rules change, then we’ll see what kind of song you’ll sing.

I have been playing since second edition. I have had lots of builds and armies invalided. It is part of the evolution of the game. None of the death guard models are invalidated. You just can’t take them in the same way. It happens in this game ALL THE TIME. If you think a new codex will come out and you won’t have to adjust you are on the wrong hobby.

Great to see all these non DG players weighing in telling me I was enjoying my army wrong and I should be glad they butchered it. Here's hoping all your armies get butchered too, I'll be sure to rub in then when the time has come.

And I have been playing since 3rd. Does it make it right that they invalidate a 4 year old army?

I was around when the gak canned my favourite game, Warhammer fantasy. I was there at the beginning of 8th when they created the Ynnari and then promptly made my army illegal a year later. I’m tired of this. They can’t just invalidate things after 4 years and expect me not to be upset. And the fact that there are defenders of this kind of behaviour is mind blowing.

There is absolutely no defending this. This is absurd. I am going to write a scathing email to GW.

Well if you step back the argument "it has been done before so it isn't bad" is something you can chuckle at on a conceptual level. Take a bit of the edge off for a moment.

That this happened alongside so many good additions and changes makes it worse in a way; a sour ingredient that spoils the flavor of the whole dish.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
It happens in this game ALL THE TIME.

How many instances of this happening have we had in 9th so far, where an existing unit people have has gone from valid to illegal?