tneva82 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mortarion feels busted to me - but I guess there is a spirit of wait and see. I feel much like Ghaz and the Ctan's though, you can't ignore him because he's standing on the objectives, chopping anything vaguely expensive into little bits. Doing 200-300 points a turn worth of damage isn't going to be an especially high bar unless your opponent is running extreme MSU.

Killing him with with average rolling MMs is going to be the equivalent of doing about 50 wounds on a regular Knight. The problem is going to be that if you do throw all your heavy guns/attacks into him for say 12-14 wounds, its effectively a waste of a turn which may cost you the game. Meanwhile I'm not sure you can go "I'll deal with him in turn 3 I guess" because you need that huge amount of firepower to really do anything.

An MM expects to do something like 0.58 damage in 24" - rising to a mighty 1 damage in 12". Obviously you can roll above average, but I think it indicates just how many guns you'd expect to have to bring to bear. Unlike other units you also can't just chuck a load of D2 weapon shots in and hope some go through. (Well, you can but its very inefficient.)

As said, I guess we'll see.

Really no 490pt model should be capable of defeat in a single turn. That's the large problem with 40k. I take 500pt model and end up going second. That model dies turn 1 and I start the game down 25% of my army. That's dumb.

But losing 25% of tanks and infantry is fine?

 Marshal Loss wrote:

broxus wrote:
Sigh played against imperial fists with several Redemptors today. I had
Typhus
Plaguecaster
4x units of PM with Blight launchers and flails
2x units of Poxwalkers (10 models)
2x fleshmowers
Plague surgeon (+3” Helm)
Blightspawn (anti charge relic)
2x PBC with entropy cannons
Unit of 3 deathshroud
5x blightlords

I felt like the ending of the last samurai. They are just so slow still and can’t charge reliability. Just don’t see how we can compete agains shooting armies. The major hit to our shooting output hurts bad.

Is Mortarian going to be mandatory?

Anything from your list perform well?

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

 mokoshkana wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mortarion feels busted to me - but I guess there is a spirit of wait and see. I feel much like Ghaz and the Ctan's though, you can't ignore him because he's standing on the objectives, chopping anything vaguely expensive into little bits. Doing 200-300 points a turn worth of damage isn't going to be an especially high bar unless your opponent is running extreme MSU.

Killing him with with average rolling MMs is going to be the equivalent of doing about 50 wounds on a regular Knight. The problem is going to be that if you do throw all your heavy guns/attacks into him for say 12-14 wounds, its effectively a waste of a turn which may cost you the game. Meanwhile I'm not sure you can go "I'll deal with him in turn 3 I guess" because you need that huge amount of firepower to really do anything.

An MM expects to do something like 0.58 damage in 24" - rising to a mighty 1 damage in 12". Obviously you can roll above average, but I think it indicates just how many guns you'd expect to have to bring to bear. Unlike other units you also can't just chuck a load of D2 weapon shots in and hope some go through. (Well, you can but its very inefficient.)

As said, I guess we'll see.

Really no 490pt model should be capable of defeat in a single turn. That's the large problem with 40k. I take 500pt model and end up going second. That model dies turn 1 and I start the game down 25% of my army. That's dumb.

But losing 25% of tanks and infantry is fine?

"If you honor what they fight for, yes!"
As Jidmah said, the smaller tanks/infantry have an easier time hiding, but it really shouldn't be easy to kill 25% of anything turn one. This is the main problem with IGOUGO.

Spoletta wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Mortarion feels busted to me - but I guess there is a spirit of wait and see. I feel much like Ghaz and the Ctan's though, you can't ignore him because he's standing on the objectives, chopping anything vaguely expensive into little bits. Doing 200-300 points a turn worth of damage isn't going to be an especially high bar unless your opponent is running extreme MSU.

Killing him with with average rolling MMs is going to be the equivalent of doing about 50 wounds on a regular Knight. The problem is going to be that if you do throw all your heavy guns/attacks into him for say 12-14 wounds, its effectively a waste of a turn which may cost you the game. Meanwhile I'm not sure you can go "I'll deal with him in turn 3 I guess" because you need that huge amount of firepower to really do anything.

An MM expects to do something like 0.58 damage in 24" - rising to a mighty 1 damage in 12". Obviously you can roll above average, but I think it indicates just how many guns you'd expect to have to bring to bear. Unlike other units you also can't just chuck a load of D2 weapon shots in and hope some go through. (Well, you can but its very inefficient.)

As said, I guess we'll see.

Really no 490pt model should be capable of defeat in a single turn. That's the large problem with 40k. I take 500pt model and end up going second. That model dies turn 1 and I start the game down 25% of my army. That's dumb.

But losing 25% of tanks and infantry is fine?

"If you honor what they fight for, yes!"
As Jidmah said, the smaller tanks/infantry have an easier time hiding, but it really shouldn't be easy to kill 25% of anything turn one. This is the main problem with IGOUGO.

Honestly, I have yet to see it happen in 9th. Turn 1 you can lose an infiltrating squad or a flyer. Rarely more than that.
Which is why not gunning down a 500 point model in a single turn is fine. Problem is that some lists simply can't put it down at all

 mokoshkana wrote:
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

Are the points in the Dex different from the MFM?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Here's a question that I haven't seen asked (apologies if I missed it). I have to assume that the latest PL/point FAQ supersedes the DG codex. Given that, how can there be changes before the codex has ever seen play? Did play tester feedback only come into account after the book was published?

Are the points in the Dex different from the MFM?

Tyel wrote:
Help me out if I'm missing something obvious.

Necron Warriors with flayers:
Outside 12", you have 1 S4 AP1 shot. For 13 points.
1*2/3(could be worse)*1/6*1/2*2/3=0.037 wounds.

So it takes 27 Necron Warriors, costing 351 points, to do a wound.
Half that in 12".
With reapers you'd be wounding on 5s, so halve again to something vaguely sensible - but still sort of improbable.
I.e. you teleport 20 reapers into range with mandatory relic.
40*2/3*1/3*1/2*2/3=3 wounds.

Arguably point for point this is a good return (260 points doing 82ish points of damage) - but Mortarion isn't obviously shaking in his boots and I'm not sure how you can reliably get say 60-100 Necron Warriors into 12" for a couple of turns.

Yes you can buff the warriors - but then the DG player is probably going to get a -1 to hit up if they go first or you don't kill on turn 1.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

broxus wrote:

Tyel wrote:

broxus wrote:
See above. Run the 15” version dynasty of the guns. Also, Mortarion is coming to you he isn’t a range guy he wants to get close. Don’t worry about trying to reach him. The example I listed shows how to out 10 wounds on mortarian with one unit of warriors and only 3 CP. you would still have 1740pts left to do more wounds. Sounds pretty to kill him to me

As I see it, 40 reapers with stratagems.

40 shots, 6s auto wound and are an extra hit.
So you'd get 33.3 hits of which 6.6 auto wound.
Of remainder 26.6 hits you get 8.8 wounds and you almost certainly get 3 6s for the cap of 3 mortal wounds.
So we've got 15.5 wounds running into a 4++ save, for 8 wounds and 3 mortal wounds.
So 11 onto 5+++ FNP gives you 7.333~ wounds.

Undoubtedly very impressive for a 260 point unit but I'm still not sure its curtains. And certainly many factions can't easily replicate this.

Yea my point is it isnt all doom and gloom. There are lots of ways to deal with Mortarian. He will be amazingly good in some matchups and get slaughtered in others. Getting no benefits of cover is really a big deal!! There are many armies and lists that can shoot him off the table the first turn. If you are running a bunch a STR 4 or STR 5 high AP melee weapons and expect to kill him you may find you need to rebalance your list with some shooting. The meta has gone hard melee in 9th so this could help restore it back to more balanced lists.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

How many of them work if you shuffle equipment around? I'm assuming the loadouts are the problem, as you can still field 7-man squads.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

 Argive wrote:
Yeah exactly man.
Im really glad I didint bother with the last CA book.
Its completely invalid less than 6 months down the line and I haven't really got to play a single game other than trying to teach my missus (spoiler. It didin't work..)

 Prometheum5 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Prometheum5 wrote:
I think I have something like 10x7-man Plague Marine squads in various states of painting that are now illegal.

How many of them work if you shuffle equipment around? I'm assuming the loadouts are the problem, as you can still field 7-man squads.

Like none! They're all older models so it's double special weapon squads. I guess I can swap plasma/flamer guys between squads and have one of each? None of the heavy weapon options exist for vintage models so kinda hosed there.

 Argive wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Right, reshuffling things got me really thinking, why should I? I mean covid going to be around for 2021, rules faqs etc are not a logical commitment from the publisher and each change is, well not that fun anymore, I mean why even bother keeping up with the updates while the world is on hold, its not like gaming is going anywhere for another year?

I mean should not in this day and age the publishers make it more fun and less hassle to play their contents just to keep us entertained? A box with dark imperium half is what I expected and would be a great starter for people too, instead we got this such weird patrol and a new philosophy of use what's in the box only... but then they supply incomplete unit boxes so you need to buy multiple and THAT is VERY annoying.

Instead of being exited with one of my favourite factions I feel like that I don't want to mess about with it anymore. So won't.

Yeah exactly man.
Im really glad I didint bother with the last CA book.
Its completely invalid less than 6 months down the line and I haven't really got to play a single game other than trying to teach my missus (spoiler. It didin't work..)

 Jidmah wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think most people bought it for the field manual.
The mission pack is still decent I'll grant but still..

I don't think anyone bought it for the field manual, points are easily found in battlescribe and on other parts of the internets. The main advantage is having a small rulebook with ring binding and the improved missions/secondaries.

broxus wrote:
I think people are over reacting against Mortarion. He will absolutely struggle against may armies such as AdMech, Salamanders, imperial fists, necrons, and any other high volume of attack shooting army.

People forget he only has a 3+ save and damage 1 weapons with -1 AP are the way to really hurt him. Necron warriors and immortals will excel at this. He is also very vulnerable to mortal wounds and literally can’t hide anywhere on the table due to those wings. Finally, I don’t think most consider he degrades quickly and doesn’t stay the same top profile.

He is durable, does solid damage, but has lots of counters. He should be tough I don’t think he is even close to broken. He has the same counters the entire DG codex has of high volume of shots at -1/-2 AP. That being said some lists will really struggle against him, but that is the case for all armies. 40K has a great deal of rock, paper, scissors.