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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 13:01:36
Subject: Re:The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ketara wrote:The_Grim_Angel wrote: Ketara wrote:[…]
Let's pin it down a bit more. The Goulding list of discovery was as follows:-
El' Jonson was found in 848.M30. The second Xenocide was 862-882, whilst third Rangdan Xenocide was in the 890's. The quote you give is in 900. Corax can't have been found any earlier than 865, as that was when the Khan was found (and he's a few Primarchs above Corax in the discovery order).
[…]
There is an inconsistency among the sources: in the novel "Deliverance lost" the Emperor say to Coras he has 17 brother and Corax ask how it can be possible, because he know he has 19 brother, then the Emperor, with a "bleak and filled of deep sorrow" face answers: «This is a conversation for another day». This suggest Corax was found after the obliteration of the two lost primarch.
I've run into this before and addressed it above. It's not actually an inconsistency. All it means is that the Emperor knew that one of his sons ('the condemned') was lost to him before he was 'found'. The Emperor could know that through intercepted communications, warp signature, rogue trader sources, or any number of other things.
[…]
I think it is a too convolute theory that open a greater inconsistency than the one it tries to solve: how could the Emperor knows one of his sons was lost without having very precise information about him? In fact it is stated that the Emperor took so long time to find out all the primarchs, because he was only able to feel they were still alive and nothing else. Unless he was found on the Rangdan homeworld…
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/07 13:21:50
The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 21:17:37
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Pacific wrote: totalfailure wrote:It’s something I’d rather see them just leave alone, and not explore any deeper. With the hit and miss nature of the fiction, the odds are just too high that any ‘big reveal’ will just be sales fodder, and deeply disappointing narratively. Some things are better left to speculation.
I kind of agree..
We have already read far more about them than was originally envisaged. Rick Priestly said that it was meant to be something that had happened so long ago that even the names of heroes and Primarchs are mixed up and forgotten, it was literally just the time of legend.
Also, if any new official update now, it will almost certainly be that Cawl travelled back in time to create himself, and ensure his name spreading through and overwhelming every single piece of 40k lore, even the bits that happened thousands of years before he existed.
Dude, how do we know Cawl isn’t one of the lost primarchs!!!! Banished to the centre of Mars for 10k years to follow through on the emperors will in confinement for his sins
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 21:33:14
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I always liked the idea that one of the missing Legions was the Grey Knights.
I know it doesn’t fit with established canon, but their primarch/ source of gene seed is unknown. (I’ve never bought the implication that the GK geneseed was somehow directly from the emperor).
If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 21:36:01
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Aash wrote:I always liked the idea that one of the missing Legions was the Grey Knights.
I know it doesn’t fit with established canon, but their primarch/ source of gene seed is unknown. (I’ve never bought the implication that the GK geneseed was somehow directly from the emperor).
If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
I think GW started setting this up, I feel like there was a hint to this effect in one of the pre 2nd Ed books
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 21:39:11
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Battlefield Professional
Nottingham, England
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Well quite a bit to is known about Cawl and all his enhancements and knowledge come from how he learns and uses information plus the wealth of it he has. Fluff wise he's undoubtedly the most important character in the current story.
I'd agree that it's the kind of "secret" that no answer can fully live up to. I prefer the hints and clues, some things are best left to the imagination,
What could be so terrible that it must be erased, in a galaxy that sees entire civilisations exterminated , humans sacrificed to a great machine etc ?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 22:32:57
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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mrFickle wrote:Aash wrote:I always liked the idea that one of the missing Legions was the Grey Knights.
I know it doesn’t fit with established canon, but their primarch/ source of gene seed is unknown. (I’ve never bought the implication that the GK geneseed was somehow directly from the emperor).
If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
I think GW started setting this up, I feel like there was a hint to this effect in one of the pre 2nd Ed books
Maybe that’s why the idea is rattling around in the back of my head!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/07 23:04:18
Subject: Re:The 2 lost primarchs.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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The_Grim_Angel wrote:
I think it is a too convolute theory that open a greater inconsistency than the one it tries to solve: how could the Emperor knows one of his sons was lost without having very precise information about him?In fact it is stated that the Emperor took so long time to find out all the primarchs, because he was only able to feel they were still alive and nothing else. :
It's really not that convoluted. The Emperor learned (by whatever means) that one of his sons was beyond retrieval and integration prior to their finding. It's not any more convoluted than me learning my brother was in a car accident before I get to see it with my own two eyes.
It should be borne in mind that the 'finding' list refers to their first meeting face to face with the Emperor, not necessarily the moment he learned where they were, or the moment they met an Imperial agent of some sort. Break it into four steps.
The Emperor finds out unknown primarch is completely screwed in some unspecified way -> Emperor meets Corax and communicates this fact -> Emperor gets on spaceship -> Emperor meets screwed up Unknown Primarch who then dies subsequently for unspecified reason.
Simple four steps. No inconsistencies required. No convoluted theory needed. The timelines all match and everything is hunky dory.
What's interesting is what might have happened to this Primarch to ruin him so absolutely prior to his 'meeting' the Emperor. Like I said, it could be that he was lobotomised and plugged into some kind of device, but I can think of several other things. The real clue is in the name though, the 'Condemned'. That's the word to chew over for a hint.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 08:17:44
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?
In my opinion such punishment must be related to something that he and his legion did (not all his legion, but a significant part), something so grave for the Imperium's destiny that needed to be totally erased, also from the minds of the untainted legionaries of the purged legion.
This is why at first (now I'm rethinking about this concept) I thought to a primarch who created a genestealer cult inside his legion, in a time in which no one knew about the existence of the genestealer, so everyone would attributed the mutations occurred in the legion to a gene flaw and the infidelity for the Emperor to the taint of Chaos.
EDIT
Actually my theory about the genestealer contamination doesn't contradict your theory about the primarch, "who was lost before to be found", because a primarch who is the patriarch of a genestealer cult is lost before to be found.
On a second thought there could be a simplest explanation about the dialogue happened in Deliverance Lost, between the Emperor and Corax: when Corax asked why the Emperor said seventeen primarchs instead of nineteen, the Emperor was full of sorrow because he was in despair about the possibility to find them; in fact it seems that Alpharius wasn't find out by the Emperor, but by Horus.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 09:48:12
The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 13:24:59
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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The_Grim_Angel wrote:That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?
Because it was something that undermined the morals/principles of the Great Crusade and/or faith in the infallibility of its top brass. Dictatorships struggle if enough people think the guy at the top is an idiot or plain wrong. The number of people who jumped to join Horus overnight proved that much.
Furthermore, it's now been substantiated that marines from one Legion did get mindwiped and reassigned to another one. Given that one of the missing Legions was 100% eliminated in the Xenocides (that's established), that means it's the other missing one that got shifted across (barring some crazy revelation about Word Bearers being turned into Space Wolves or something). It also directly supports one Missing Primarch never even taking command of his Legion (his Legion would need breaking up after he died).
Actually my theory about the genestealer contamination doesn't contradict your theory about the primarch, "who was lost before to be found", because a primarch who is the patriarch of a genestealer cult is lost before to be found.
Sure. I doubt it was warp taint (that would have prewarned the other Primarchs who were oblivious to the Chaos threat). That leaves some form of irreversible biological compromise (be it Xenos or otherwise), or just a plain old refusal to join the Emperor (a Primarch who refuses to assimilate is a major threat). Either one would merit the title 'The Condemned'.
To me, I'm inclined to think it's the last one. Why? Because Horus and his brothers wouldn't have cared about him otherwise. Xenos taint or lobotimisation is dishonourable. Falling in glorious battle in defence of his own Empire/ideals, is a far more respectable fate, even if you were the ones who put him in the ground.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 13:43:29
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ketara wrote:The_Grim_Angel wrote:That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?
Because it was something that undermined the morals/principles of the Great Crusade and/or faith in the infallibility of its top brass. Dictatorships struggle if enough people think the guy at the top is an idiot or plain wrong. The number of people who jumped to join Horus overnight proved that much.
[…]
In that case I think it would be simpler to record: «Died before his discovery.» (or «Never found.»), without erase his legion, mind-wipe his legionaries and rewrite all the imperial records.
By the way I'm not arguing with you, because I want prove I'm right, but because I'm working on the stories of the Lost, the Purged and the False Primarch and this discussion is very helpful to understand what points of these stories I have to improve.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aash wrote:I always liked the idea that one of the missing Legions was the Grey Knights.
I know it doesn’t fit with established canon, but their primarch/ source of gene seed is unknown. (I’ve never bought the implication that the GK geneseed was somehow directly from the emperor).
I had the same idea, but because it doesn't fit to with the canon, I dropped it.
Aash wrote:If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
I always thought the Thousand Sons were create to be the specialists of the psychic warfare in the realspace, so I supposed the Second Legion was created to build the Imperial Webway in the warpspace; this is why I thought to the name "Empyrean Pioneers" for it.
BertBert wrote:On a related note: What do you believe happened to Valdor?
Thank you: you have just gave me the idea I needed to write the story of the False Primarch; even if it isn't related with the story of Valdor.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 14:17:33
The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 14:33:03
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Aash wrote:If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
So if this logic is what we're going with, and one of the lost Primarchs was Magnus grade psyker with a Psyker legion, then which one of the other known 17 Primarchs lacked a counterpoint?
I can tell instantly that one counterpoint was Dorn - Perturabo.
And another in terms of legion combat style could be Mortarion - Vulkan with how both their legions fight (relative to others) as slow-moving heavy infantry with more exotic choice of weaponry. Given also how fire destroys germs, it's also a fitting counterpoint with the latter Plague Marines vs Salamanders).
Angron - Sanguinius is one given how both had some sort of anger in them that passed down to their legions as well.
Lion El Johnson and Alpharius Omegon to a degree with how both keep secrets, are covert and never show their full hand to anyone.
Corax and Curze being stealthy fighters with more querilla style focused legions.
Khan and Fulgrim. Fast maneuvering melee focused combat style.
Russ and Lorgar. One is the least likely Primarch to fall to Chaos and Warp influences with psychic powers specialized to combating and nullifying Warp powers, the other fell to the Warp first, uses Warp sorcery copiously, etc...
Guilliman and Horus. Both had this sort of general jack of all trades vibe to them with jack of all trades legions that were like closest in military culture to normal 21st century armies.
So I am having hard time finding any other Primarch than Magnus lacking some sort of counterpoint. So what Primarch asides from Magnus would you guys say is the most without a direct counterpoint?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 14:42:09
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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EDIT: I misunderstood the question
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 14:43:59
The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 15:31:40
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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The_Grim_Angel wrote: Ketara wrote:The_Grim_Angel wrote:That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?
Because it was something that undermined the morals/principles of the Great Crusade and/or faith in the infallibility of its top brass. Dictatorships struggle if enough people think the guy at the top is an idiot or plain wrong. The number of people who jumped to join Horus overnight proved that much.
[…]
In that case I think it would be simpler to record: «Died before his discovery.» (or «Never found.»), without erase his legion, mind-wipe his legionaries and rewrite all the imperial records.
By the way I'm not arguing with you, because I want prove I'm right, but because I'm working on the stories of the Lost, the Purged and the False Primarch and this discussion is very helpful to understand what points of these stories I have to improve.
I'll be frank, there's not much to argue with. I'm just providing the pieces we've been shown thus far. Let me separate things out a little more.
As things stand, with the existing lore (Corax's finding/Goulding list), the Emperor knew one of the missing primarchs (we'll call him 'B') was of no use to him before the Emperor physically met (or 'found') B. Guilliman also in his recollections ( 40K era) also very deliberately separated both Missing Primarchs (A+B) from the Traitors (meaning that they didn't betray the Emperor after joining the Imperium). Those are the facts as things stand.
Likewise, we know that one of the Missing Legions was mindwiped and transferred. Malcador states this unequivocally to Dorn, who doesn't argue with it. Elsewhere, we also definitively know that 'whole Legions were destroyed' in the Rangdan Xenocides. That's written as a third party perspective and so beyond in-universe bias. So it is established that one Missing Legion was destroyed in the Xenocides and one was mindwiped and moved elsewhere. That's established fact until retconned.
Lining up these facts, it is impossible that the Legion destroyed in the Xenocides could have belonged to the Missing Primarch B. Why?
A)The timelines don't really match.
B) Primarch B never 'betrayed' the Emperor and was written off before he even met the Emperor. There's really no way therefore he could be commanding a Legion in the Xenocides.
Ergo, we know that B's Legion was the Legion that was mindwiped. Which makes sense. The Primarch was never going to command them (being dead and all), so why would you want to keep the force structure in place?
The bits that are up for debate are:-
(a) How the Emperor knew Primarch B was of no use to him before he met him,
(b) What happened to Primarch B to ruin him so utterly as a prospect,
(c) How Primarch B died,
(D) Which Legion Primarch B's Legion was reassigned to,
(E) What the hell happened to Primarch A in the Xenocides to kill him and taint his entire Legion.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 15:34:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 15:47:53
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ketara wrote:[…]
Ergo, we know that B's Legion was the Legion that was mindwiped. Which makes sense. The Primarch was never going to command them (being dead and all), so why would you want to keep the force structure in place?
[…]
Again why do mind-wipe them, instead to simply say: «I'm sorry, but your Primarch is dead, so we need to put you under the command of the Ultramarines»? This is the only thing I have problems to understand.
P.S. I used the verb "to argue" like a synonym of "to reason".
P.P.S. he Primarch B is the Eleventh One, right?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 15:52:18
The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 15:58:31
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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The_Grim_Angel wrote: Ketara wrote:[…]
Ergo, we know that B's Legion was the Legion that was mindwiped. Which makes sense. The Primarch was never going to command them (being dead and all), so why would you want to keep the force structure in place?
[…]
Again why do mind-wipe them, instead to simply say: «I'm sorry, but your Primarch is dead, so we need to put you under the command of the Ultramarines»? This is the only thing I have problems to understand.
I couldn't say. We can deduce (using the facts provided and basic logic) that Primarch B's Legion was the one which was broken up and mindwiped. But why exactly that was I just don't know. It could be for simple force organisation reasons. It could be to try and hide his existence altogether. It could be because the Emperor worried about the Legion's loyalty if they found out the details of their Primarch's death. It could be all three. Who knows? Not me.
All we do know is that they were mindwiped and reassigned after Primarch B corked it. You can headcanon your own reason why.
(Primarch B is the one found before Alpharius. Which number Legion would have been his, I've no idea)
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/08 15:59:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 16:54:24
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
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The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Again why do mind-wipe them, instead to simply say: «I'm sorry, but your Primarch is dead, so we need to put you under the command of the Ultramarines»? This is the only thing I have problems to understand.
.. So threads like this one can exist, I think..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 17:11:24
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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You're missing the bigger conspiracy.
The Emperor confronted this missing Primarch and was killed. The primarch assumed the identity of the Emperor and erased all knowledge of him so he can hide in plain sight.
Which lends credence to what Chaos has been saying the whole time.... Death to the False Emperor.
It would be an ironic twist from Chaos to fool people by literally telling them the truth.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 19:09:22
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:Aash wrote:If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
So if this logic is what we're going with, and one of the lost Primarchs was Magnus grade psyker with a Psyker legion, then which one of the other known 17 Primarchs lacked a counterpoint?
I can tell instantly that one counterpoint was Dorn - Perturabo.
And another in terms of legion combat style could be Mortarion - Vulkan with how both their legions fight (relative to others) as slow-moving heavy infantry with more exotic choice of weaponry. Given also how fire destroys germs, it's also a fitting counterpoint with the latter Plague Marines vs Salamanders).
Angron - Sanguinius is one given how both had some sort of anger in them that passed down to their legions as well.
Lion El Johnson and Alpharius Omegon to a degree with how both keep secrets, are covert and never show their full hand to anyone.
Corax and Curze being stealthy fighters with more querilla style focused legions.
Khan and Fulgrim. Fast maneuvering melee focused combat style.
Russ and Lorgar. One is the least likely Primarch to fall to Chaos and Warp influences with psychic powers specialized to combating and nullifying Warp powers, the other fell to the Warp first, uses Warp sorcery copiously, etc...
Guilliman and Horus. Both had this sort of general jack of all trades vibe to them with jack of all trades legions that were like closest in military culture to normal 21st century armies.
So I am having hard time finding any other Primarch than Magnus lacking some sort of counterpoint. So what Primarch asides from Magnus would you guys say is the most without a direct counterpoint?
I've always liked the symmetry of each Primarch having an opposite number, or a mirror. I think in my mind I pair them off a little differently though:
Horus and the Lion: tactically flexible, and arguably the best strategists/tacticians, both contenders to be Warmaster.
Dorn and Perturbo: I think this is self explanatory.
Corax and Alpharius: Sneaky, covert operations and sabotage.
Sanguinius and Fulgrim: The "perfect", "beautiful" and "angelic" ones.
Guilliman and Lorgar: Empire Builders, managers. One as Religious leader the other as Administrator.
Russ and Angron: Space Wolves and War Hounds, both ferocious and feral/canine.
Khan and Curze: Lightning strikes and raids.
Vulkan and Mortarian: This one is a bit of a stretch I admit, but both their legions have a reputation for being slow, implaccable and dauntless.
So that leaves Magnus and Ferrus as the counterparts for II and XI, a psyker and a technophile.
So the 2 missing primarchs could be the psyker who would have played a part in the webway project as suggested above, they could be the Primarch of the Grey Knights. This would make this Primarch the "lost" in that he was hidden away from the galaxy and the others and a cover story fabricated.
The other could be the corrupted one that did so bad they had to be destroyed - Being technologically minded maybe they were bringing back AI, so the Emperor decided to stamp that right out and remove them from history because of how badly AI went in the past with the Men of Iron stuff.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 19:13:51
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Green is Best! wrote:You're missing the bigger conspiracy.
The Emperor confronted this missing Primarch and was killed. The primarch assumed the identity of the Emperor and erased all knowledge of him so he can hide in plain sight.
Which lends credence to what Chaos has been saying the whole time.... Death to the False Emperor.
It would be an ironic twist from Chaos to fool people by literally telling them the truth.
Love this idea. But unfortunately if this were the reason for the CSM mantra then we would have heard this play out in conversation. Wouldn’t Horus have exposed this to the other primarchs.
I think that one of missing primarchs was a pariah. But a Magnus level pariah. Made everyone feel sick and they hated being around him and although he didn’t do anything that bad his sheer presence made people hate him and that’s why he was thought of as so a terrible failure.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/08 19:43:03
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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mrFickle wrote:
Love this idea. But unfortunately if this were the reason for the CSM mantra then we would have heard this play out in conversation. Wouldn’t Horus have exposed this to the other primarchs.
I think that one of missing primarchs was a pariah. But a Magnus level pariah. Made everyone feel sick and they hated being around him and although he didn’t do anything that bad his sheer presence made people hate him and that’s why he was thought of as so a terrible failure.
Maybe Horus really went to kill the False Emperor to save humanity. Everything we have read in the Horus Heresy is a lie propagated by this False Emperor. The primarch who replaced the emperors special skill is Propaganda!
It is time you all realized that the CHAOS GODS ARE TRYING TO SAVE YOU!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/09 23:37:37
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ketara wrote:The_Grim_Angel wrote: Ketara wrote:The_Grim_Angel wrote:That is the point: why erase every record about that primarch and his legion, if that primarch de facto never became the primarch of his legion?
Because it was something that undermined the morals/principles of the Great Crusade and/or faith in the infallibility of its top brass. Dictatorships struggle if enough people think the guy at the top is an idiot or plain wrong. The number of people who jumped to join Horus overnight proved that much.
[…]
In that case I think it would be simpler to record: «Died before his discovery.» (or «Never found.»), without erase his legion, mind-wipe his legionaries and rewrite all the imperial records.
By the way I'm not arguing with you, because I want prove I'm right, but because I'm working on the stories of the Lost, the Purged and the False Primarch and this discussion is very helpful to understand what points of these stories I have to improve.
I'll be frank, there's not much to argue with. I'm just providing the pieces we've been shown thus far. Let me separate things out a little more.
As things stand, with the existing lore (Corax's finding/Goulding list), the Emperor knew one of the missing primarchs (we'll call him 'B') was of no use to him before the Emperor physically met (or 'found') B. Guilliman also in his recollections ( 40K era) also very deliberately separated both Missing Primarchs (A+B) from the Traitors (meaning that they didn't betray the Emperor after joining the Imperium). Those are the facts as things stand.
Likewise, we know that one of the Missing Legions was mindwiped and transferred. Malcador states this unequivocally to Dorn, who doesn't argue with it. Elsewhere, we also definitively know that 'whole Legions were destroyed' in the Rangdan Xenocides. That's written as a third party perspective and so beyond in-universe bias. So it is established that one Missing Legion was destroyed in the Xenocides and one was mindwiped and moved elsewhere. That's established fact until retconned.
Lining up these facts, it is impossible that the Legion destroyed in the Xenocides could have belonged to the Missing Primarch B. Why?
A)The timelines don't really match.
B) Primarch B never 'betrayed' the Emperor and was written off before he even met the Emperor. There's really no way therefore he could be commanding a Legion in the Xenocides.
Ergo, we know that B's Legion was the Legion that was mindwiped. Which makes sense. The Primarch was never going to command them (being dead and all), so why would you want to keep the force structure in place?
The bits that are up for debate are:-
(a) How the Emperor knew Primarch B was of no use to him before he met him,
(b) What happened to Primarch B to ruin him so utterly as a prospect,
(c) How Primarch B died,
(D) Which Legion Primarch B's Legion was reassigned to,
(E) What the hell happened to Primarch A in the Xenocides to kill him and taint his entire Legion.
Just my opinion but the pieces of info the way you put them would lean towards the Blood Ravens being Primarch B’s Legion remnants.
My gut feeling is they were put into the Ultramarines as it was noted their numbers swelled. When the Astartes reorg happened they were spat back out as not true Smurf lineage. The other possibility is they were split between the Blood Angels and Raven Guard, hence name Blood Ravens. Again they were spat back out under reorganisation of Astartes Legions.
When they were spat back out, they underwent mind wipe and put in stasis on Mars to make mind wipe even more effective and also to maybe help people forget them? Or maybe they were mind wiped before being put in one of the other Legions? Then stasis after they were spat back out, that may fit better.
Then circa M36-37 they were re-established as the Blood Ravens Chapter and put on the Eastern fringe of the Ultima Segmentum, nice and out of the way.
The Blood Ravens seem to have an inherent ability to combat chaos/the warp as well as develop more psychic gifted marines after gene seed implantation. So my guess is this trait was passed down from their Primarch and he indeed had strong psychic abilities, comparable to Magnus or maybe even more?
What happened to their Primarch for the Emperor to to deem him not a prospect before they even met? Maybe the Ruinous Powers saw him as the biggest threat to them of all the Primarchs and somehow damaged or even killed him before the Emp could reach him or maybe they even sucked him into the warp? Or maybe it was something to do with the YMGA monolith and he got sucked into the Necron Webway? Or maybe the Eldar Farseers saw his potential and hid them in their webway or a craft world? I still feel there is some connection with the Blood Ravens and Eldar for some reason. Also sure I read somewhere the Blood Ravens were dear to the Emperors heart, maybe they were earmarked as the Legion who would be the warriors of the Human webway? Or they were dear to his heart as deep down he knew he had failed to find their Primarch in time, or just couldn’t reach him to save him?
Edit - Or maybe the Emperor didn’t like the fact Primarch B was such a powerful Psyker and erased him or put him in permanent stasis, something that was a shame on the Emp, hence Primarch/Legion record expunged.
As for Primarch A, I haven’t got the foggiest.
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/12/09 23:50:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 02:08:21
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Aash wrote: Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:Aash wrote:If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
So if this logic is what we're going with, and one of the lost Primarchs was Magnus grade psyker with a Psyker legion, then which one of the other known 17 Primarchs lacked a counterpoint?
I can tell instantly that one counterpoint was Dorn - Perturabo.
And another in terms of legion combat style could be Mortarion - Vulkan with how both their legions fight (relative to others) as slow-moving heavy infantry with more exotic choice of weaponry. Given also how fire destroys germs, it's also a fitting counterpoint with the latter Plague Marines vs Salamanders).
Angron - Sanguinius is one given how both had some sort of anger in them that passed down to their legions as well.
Lion El Johnson and Alpharius Omegon to a degree with how both keep secrets, are covert and never show their full hand to anyone.
Corax and Curze being stealthy fighters with more querilla style focused legions.
Khan and Fulgrim. Fast maneuvering melee focused combat style.
Russ and Lorgar. One is the least likely Primarch to fall to Chaos and Warp influences with psychic powers specialized to combating and nullifying Warp powers, the other fell to the Warp first, uses Warp sorcery copiously, etc...
Guilliman and Horus. Both had this sort of general jack of all trades vibe to them with jack of all trades legions that were like closest in military culture to normal 21st century armies.
So I am having hard time finding any other Primarch than Magnus lacking some sort of counterpoint. So what Primarch asides from Magnus would you guys say is the most without a direct counterpoint?
I've always liked the symmetry of each Primarch having an opposite number, or a mirror. I think in my mind I pair them off a little differently though:
Horus and the Lion: tactically flexible, and arguably the best strategists/tacticians, both contenders to be Warmaster.
Dorn and Perturbo: I think this is self explanatory.
Corax and Alpharius: Sneaky, covert operations and sabotage.
Sanguinius and Fulgrim: The "perfect", "beautiful" and "angelic" ones.
Guilliman and Lorgar: Empire Builders, managers. One as Religious leader the other as Administrator.
Russ and Angron: Space Wolves and War Hounds, both ferocious and feral/canine.
Khan and Curze: Lightning strikes and raids.
Vulkan and Mortarian: This one is a bit of a stretch I admit, but both their legions have a reputation for being slow, implaccable and dauntless.
So that leaves Magnus and Ferrus as the counterparts for II and XI, a psyker and a technophile.
So the 2 missing primarchs could be the psyker who would have played a part in the webway project as suggested above, they could be the Primarch of the Grey Knights. This would make this Primarch the "lost" in that he was hidden away from the galaxy and the others and a cover story fabricated.
The other could be the corrupted one that did so bad they had to be destroyed - Being technologically minded maybe they were bringing back AI, so the Emperor decided to stamp that right out and remove them from history because of how badly AI went in the past with the Men of Iron stuff.
Wow, this is one hell of a theory, and actually well thought out, it kind of made me think something like this happened.
The 'evil' counterpart to ferrus decided that he could control the men of iron and decided to revive the DAoT, along with fully sentient and aware of machines because he was just so awesome he could make them work right. Of course he has the best of intentions. The emperor eventually has to splat him to stop him bringing back the DAoT and the men of iron, but maybe he made a few that got loose, and actually are not hostile to humanity. He wiped his record to keep anyone from knowing that some of the DAoT had been rebuilt and it could be done.
The good counterpart to magnus had super prophetic vision, even beyond that of magnus or the emprah. He saw what was coming, he saw the whole thing right up to the fall of cadia and the warp rift that split the imperium.
He also knew that absolutely nothing he could say would change the emprah's mind. He saw the whole future and what would befall mankind and that nothing could change the course the emprah was on because he was just to arrogant and certain of his own infallibility to be changed.
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So he basically said "Dad, you're going to feth things up to a degree you can't even forsee, and i know nothing i can do or say will change you, and if i try to show you what's going to hapen you'll ignore me and if i push, you'll murder me. So, I'm just going to take off, hide from you, let you plunge humanity into 10,00 years of darkness, ignorance, misery and suffering while i wait for the time i can come back and try to make things better. "
Now maybe before leaving he did some things, like set up Malcador to be in the right place and right time to make it possible for humanity to survive, maybe had a few words with a certain techpriest and possibly gave him some primarch immortality genes so he'd be around to pull off a big deus ex machina in 10,000 years, saw to it there'd be a stasis chamber ready for bobby G when he needed it, etc, etc. He may have even negotiated with a particular eldar who would be needed to bring back guilleman when humanity needed a new savior.
So he gets his history erased because the emprah's ego just can't deal with someone telling him he was wrong and too full of himself to believe it.
Yeah, i like the theory quoted above, and decided to run with it. It gives us the evil version of ferrus and the good version of magnus and has them doing the things in character that might get them stricken. Am i right? of course not, it makes too much sense for GW to ever use.
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"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 02:17:59
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Aash wrote: Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:Aash wrote:If we follow the idea that each primarch has a counterpoint then one of the missing primarchs should be the answer to Magnus and the thousand sons.
So if this logic is what we're going with, and one of the lost Primarchs was Magnus grade psyker with a Psyker legion, then which one of the other known 17 Primarchs lacked a counterpoint?
I can tell instantly that one counterpoint was Dorn - Perturabo.
And another in terms of legion combat style could be Mortarion - Vulkan with how both their legions fight (relative to others) as slow-moving heavy infantry with more exotic choice of weaponry. Given also how fire destroys germs, it's also a fitting counterpoint with the latter Plague Marines vs Salamanders).
Angron - Sanguinius is one given how both had some sort of anger in them that passed down to their legions as well.
Lion El Johnson and Alpharius Omegon to a degree with how both keep secrets, are covert and never show their full hand to anyone.
Corax and Curze being stealthy fighters with more querilla style focused legions.
Khan and Fulgrim. Fast maneuvering melee focused combat style.
Russ and Lorgar. One is the least likely Primarch to fall to Chaos and Warp influences with psychic powers specialized to combating and nullifying Warp powers, the other fell to the Warp first, uses Warp sorcery copiously, etc...
Guilliman and Horus. Both had this sort of general jack of all trades vibe to them with jack of all trades legions that were like closest in military culture to normal 21st century armies.
So I am having hard time finding any other Primarch than Magnus lacking some sort of counterpoint. So what Primarch asides from Magnus would you guys say is the most without a direct counterpoint?
I've always liked the symmetry of each Primarch having an opposite number, or a mirror. I think in my mind I pair them off a little differently though:
Horus and the Lion: tactically flexible, and arguably the best strategists/tacticians, both contenders to be Warmaster.
Dorn and Perturbo: I think this is self explanatory.
Corax and Alpharius: Sneaky, covert operations and sabotage.
Sanguinius and Fulgrim: The "perfect", "beautiful" and "angelic" ones.
Guilliman and Lorgar: Empire Builders, managers. One as Religious leader the other as Administrator.
Russ and Angron: Space Wolves and War Hounds, both ferocious and feral/canine.
Khan and Curze: Lightning strikes and raids.
Vulkan and Mortarian: This one is a bit of a stretch I admit, but both their legions have a reputation for being slow, implaccable and dauntless.
So that leaves Magnus and Ferrus as the counterparts for II and XI, a psyker and a technophile.
So the 2 missing primarchs could be the psyker who would have played a part in the webway project as suggested above, they could be the Primarch of the Grey Knights. This would make this Primarch the "lost" in that he was hidden away from the galaxy and the others and a cover story fabricated.
The other could be the corrupted one that did so bad they had to be destroyed - Being technologically minded maybe they were bringing back AI, so the Emperor decided to stamp that right out and remove them from history because of how badly AI went in the past with the Men of Iron stuff.
Well we are looking at them as dark mirrors, correct?
So one theory could take into account how you might see their roles. Ferrus and the Iron Hands are about mechanical enhancements, and clearly the Emperor didn't have a problem with this, only going so far as to disapprove of the Nails but never outright ban them.
So we can look at the two Primarchs like we look at Ferrus, Magnus, and their respective Legions.
The Iron Hands are all about enhancements, but these are tech enhancements. We can either say their mirror would be super forbidden tech, OR possibly biological improvements that could've been forbidden. Anything like that would need the Emperor's blessing after all.
As for Magnus, a perfect dark mirror would be essentially the opposite of a Psyker: a blank. Someone disillusioned with the Emperor and as powerful as a Primarch would be dangerous after all.
Just throwing thoughts.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 02:27:32
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Given how Primarchs are sort of Greater Warp Daemons shaped into a human form with incredible precense in the Warp from which they draw their power, I fail to see how one could be blank.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 03:31:58
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:Given how Primarchs are sort of Greater Warp Daemons shaped into a human form with incredible precense in the Warp from which they draw their power, I fail to see how one could be blank.
Doesn't necessarily have to be a blank, but a natural suppression of Psyker power much more compared to say Mortarion or Russ seems within reason.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 10:58:27
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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It should be noted that it would be Primarch A (Xenocide boy) who located the Ymga Monolith, as Primarch B (lost before found) would never have been in a position to lead an Imperium sponsored expedition.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/10 10:59:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 12:33:27
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Couple of points of the opposites theory or duality theory of primarchs:
I would say ferrus and fulgrim are both seekers of perfection and this is seen in the completions to craft weapons etc and the behaviour of their legions
Angron was a compassionate character before the butchers nails so not the mirror of russ.
I would say russ and lion are a pair in these theory’s
And in these theories who would be the alpharius Omegon opposite? I think the twins thing is a red herring as they are supposed to be one soul in 2 bodies
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 13:15:51
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Death-Dealing Devastator
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Ketara wrote:It should be noted that it would be Primarch A (Xenocide boy) who located the Ymga Monolith, as Primarch B (lost before found) would never have been in a position to lead an Imperium sponsored expedition.
It has been stated that all 20 primarchs were found and all 20 primarchs were given command of their legion. Might be out-dated at their point but still what has been accepted about the legions and the Crusade. So they both led expeditions at some point, and then both dying or failing in massive ways. This also doesn’t fit with the idea that one was lost and the emperor didn’t find him/or destroyed him immediately, he didn’t do that with Angron correct? Maybe just like Angron, the emperor thought he could cure or fix one of the lost primarchs. Then after some time realizing it wasn’t going to work he purged the Primarch. Still think one was connected to the Ymga monolith(2nd Primarch or Primarch A) and then other died during the Rangdan xenocides(Primarch of the 11th or Primarch B), probably infected or compromised, if not out right destroyed in the process.
The dark mirror aspect for the primarchs is also a good one, and the idea that one was tech oriented or even biologically oriented is promising. I also thought that instead of pairs the primarchs also broke down into other groups, like paranoia is shared between Lionel Jonson, Perturabo and Alpharius, how Fulgrim, Kahn and Sangiunius all love art and aesthetic beauty, or how Perturabo, Vulcan and Ferrus were great craftsman of armor and weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 14:34:03
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Musselman wrote: Ketara wrote:It should be noted that it would be Primarch A (Xenocide boy) who located the Ymga Monolith, as Primarch B (lost before found) would never have been in a position to lead an Imperium sponsored expedition.
It has been stated that... all 20 primarchs were given command of their legion.
Source? And is it dated since the Heresy got rebooted? Because if not, it's been retconned.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/12/10 15:02:44
Subject: The 2 lost primarchs.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ultramarines Codex; second edition page 7 if I'm not wrong.
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The answer is inside you; but it is wrong. |
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