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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You missed the point saying that the Grey Knights player, Karol, was to blame vs even unoptimized Eldar, which isn't even close to remotely true.

Completely depends on the list, and I called the situation out as different from the current Astartes codex. You can have a codex which has the best-in-meta-build, but without optimization is absolute trash. Conversely, it's possible to have a codex where all the options are decent, but doesn't have a tournament-winning setup.

If you don't understand even that basic level of nuance you probably aren't too good at wargames.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Imagine blaming a Grey Knights player for losing instead of the garbage codex they were given compared to Eldar. That's fething hilarious. Here's your spoiler, tiger: certain non-optimized armies are still significantly better than other armies.

Which is what he said when he said the space marine codex can field unoptimized lists and still overperform....

You missed the point saying that the Grey Knights player, Karol, was to blame vs even unoptimized Eldar, which isn't even close to remotely true.

it is somewhat true IMO. Player skill does have a big say in the outcome of a game and an unoptimized eldar list can be even more trash than GK at their lowest during 8th.

A biel-tan aspect warrior list would probably get wrecked by karol's terminator heavy GK list.

Absolutely not LOL. Did you already forget how many point per wound GK Terminators were paying for? Absolutely Glass and little of the Cannon.
Player Skill only goes so far, otherwise we could just roll over and say 7th wasn't bad either.


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Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

You missed the point saying that the Grey Knights player, Karol, was to blame vs even unoptimized Eldar, which isn't even close to remotely true.

Completely depends on the list, and I called the situation out as different from the current Astartes codex. You can have a codex which has the best-in-meta-build, but without optimization is absolute trash. Conversely, it's possible to have a codex where all the options are decent, but doesn't have a tournament-winning setup.

If you don't understand even that basic level of nuance you probably aren't too good at wargames.

It really isn't different. Certain codices are just trash no matter how much "muh player skill" you wanna try to blame it on instead of Dear Leader GW. Unoptimized Grey Knights were trash vs everyone else barring maybe unoptimized Genestealer Cults, and that's just a fact.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really isn't different. Certain codices are just trash no matter how much "muh player skill" you wanna try to blame it on instead of Dear Leader GW. Unoptimized Grey Knights were trash vs everyone else barring maybe unoptimized Genestealer Cults, and that's just a fact.

Nope! Definitely not a fact.

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really isn't different. Certain codices are just trash no matter how much "muh player skill" you wanna try to blame it on instead of Dear Leader GW. Unoptimized Grey Knights were trash vs everyone else barring maybe unoptimized Genestealer Cults, and that's just a fact.

Nope! Definitely not a fact.

MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really isn't different. Certain codices are just trash no matter how much "muh player skill" you wanna try to blame it on instead of Dear Leader GW. Unoptimized Grey Knights were trash vs everyone else barring maybe unoptimized Genestealer Cults, and that's just a fact.

Nope! Definitely not a fact.

MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

I don't get your argument, slayer.

It seems clear to me that we all know GW is to blame for shoddy balance. What we are saying is that considering the existence of poor balance is out of our hands, we can reach compromises with our opponents (outside tournaments) concerning what type of game we want to play.

Asking someone to play a more casual list isnt putting the blame on GW, its trying to reach a point where both parties are satisfied with the game that they are about to sink 2-3 hours in.

The opponent is free to say no and its up to both players to reach an understanding. If i want a more casual game because im playing Gk with a premade army that i bought in one shot, asking my opponent to maybe not run a top tier list is fine. If he refuses, i can in return ask if he would allow me to use count-as or proxies for more powerful models (using regular termies as paladins for example). If my opponent refuses that then it becomes a person problem instead of a GW problem because it makes it clear that the person only wants to win with the op list.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really isn't different. Certain codices are just trash no matter how much "muh player skill" you wanna try to blame it on instead of Dear Leader GW. Unoptimized Grey Knights were trash vs everyone else barring maybe unoptimized Genestealer Cults, and that's just a fact.

Orkz in 7th were arguably the worst codex in the entire game. Eldar, Tau and SM were UN-arguably the best. I beat them several times to win tournaments with my orkz in 8-20 man tournaments in 7th. So player skill can absolutely be a factor.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

Nah. I have yet to see evidence than an unoptimized GK's list is necessarily worse than an unoptimized CE list for a given edition. Moreover, even if it was, that isn't justification for Astartes being powerful now, and Eldar players weren't in denial about the power of their codex at the time.

So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.

Wow, the hypocrisy of some people, not lumpung gk in with marines before they got the 2.0dex buffs, then lumping them in when they got the 2.0dex buffs in PA, and then not lumping them in again when marines got their wounds doubled for fething free and GK didnt.

How hypocritical.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.

Definitely. Guard, Talons, AdMech, even SoB though they're my least favorite faction in the game - they could all use some love compared to Astartes.


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the_scotsman wrote:
Wow, the hypocrisy of some people, not lumpung gk in with marines before they got the 2.0dex buffs, then lumping them in when they got the 2.0dex buffs in PA, and then not lumping them in again when marines got their wounds doubled for fething free and GK didnt.

How hypocritical.

Doesn't seem so to me, unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

Eldar players weren't in denial about the power of their codex at the time.

I don't know about that. It's been my experience that the current outlier players tend to spend a lot of time deflecting and throwing out whataboutisms.

Eldar players regularly trotted out the tired old arguments about them being a frail race with hyper specialized weaponry requiring high level play from them (despite the lists always being Jetbikes, Wave Serpents, Councils etc. Ie. Very resilient and effective against all targets.)

Now that they've fallen we see the acknowledgment and Marine players have taken their place discounting the disparity. We've even seen threads complaining about the ubiquitous whining as if it came from nowhere and not in reaction to the absurd books released. (As one of the worst back at the beginning I acknowledge it got to be a bit much but acting like it was negativity for it's own sake is equally wrong)

After Marines fall and Tau or Dark Eldar reign supreme we'll see Marine players acknowledge this era the way the post Scatbike Eldar players did and the cycle will continue.

 Eldarain wrote:
Eldar players regularly trotted out the tired old arguments about them being a frail race with hyper specialized weaponry requiring high level play from them (despite the lists always being Jetbikes, Wave Serpents, Councils etc. Ie. Very resilient and effective against all targets.)

That's not really a denial that their faction is overpowered, though, they're just saying it has a high skill ceiling (which may or may not be true). But if you assume that their skill ceiling is higher than other factions, and that competitive players will push to the ceiling of their faction, then it's a tacit admission that Eldar are the most powerful faction.

 Eldarain wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

Eldar players weren't in denial about the power of their codex at the time.

I don't know about that. It's been my experience that the current outlier players tend to spend a lot of time deflecting and throwing out whataboutisms.

Eldar players regularly trotted out the tired old arguments about them being a frail race with hyper specialized weaponry requiring high level play from them (despite the lists always being Jetbikes, Wave Serpents, Councils etc. Ie. Very resilient and effective against all targets.)

Now that they've fallen we see the acknowledgment and Marine players have taken their place discounting the disparity. We've even seen threads complaining about the ubiquitous whining as if it came from nowhere and not in reaction to the absurd books released. (As one of the worst back at the beginning I acknowledge it got to be a bit much but acting like it was negativity for it's own sake is equally wrong)

After Marines fall and Tau or Dark Eldar reign supreme we'll see Marine players acknowledge this era the way the post Scatbike Eldar players did and the cycle will continue.

..Or, you know, they'll claim that it was all "Just Gimmicks" or point to the countermeta factions with like 1% playrate and 60% wr and go "marines weren't even the REAL strongest army (some months in the two years of continuous dominance)"

the_scotsman wrote:
Wow, the hypocrisy of some people, not lumpung gk in with marines before they got the 2.0dex buffs, then lumping them in when they got the 2.0dex buffs in PA, and then not lumping them in again when marines got their wounds doubled for fething free and GK didnt.

How hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical. It is however idiotic. Someone who ever lumped GK in with general marines is dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

Eldar players weren't in denial about the power of their codex at the time.

I don't know about that. It's been my experience that the current outlier players tend to spend a lot of time deflecting and throwing out whataboutisms.

Eldar players regularly trotted out the tired old arguments about them being a frail race with hyper specialized weaponry requiring high level play from them (despite the lists always being Jetbikes, Wave Serpents, Councils etc. Ie. Very resilient and effective against all targets.)

Now that they've fallen we see the acknowledgment and Marine players have taken their place discounting the disparity. We've even seen threads complaining about the ubiquitous whining as if it came from nowhere and not in reaction to the absurd books released. (As one of the worst back at the beginning I acknowledge it got to be a bit much but acting like it was negativity for it's own sake is equally wrong)

After Marines fall and Tau or Dark Eldar reign supreme we'll see Marine players acknowledge this era the way the post Scatbike Eldar players did and the cycle will continue.

..Or, you know, they'll claim that it was all "Just Gimmicks" or point to the countermeta factions with like 1% playrate and 60% wr and go "marines weren't even the REAL strongest army (some months in the two years of continuous dominance)"

They're not the real strongest army right now. Harlequins are.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


They're not the real strongest army right now. Harlequins are.

They have an extremely high performance floor.

VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It really isn't different. Certain codices are just trash no matter how much "muh player skill" you wanna try to blame it on instead of Dear Leader GW. Unoptimized Grey Knights were trash vs everyone else barring maybe unoptimized Genestealer Cults, and that's just a fact.

Nope! Definitely not a fact.

MAN the denial/cope is real. GW could release a Cultist at 3 points with every model having a D2 Assault Cannon for free, and we'd still have people like you with their heads in the sand.

I don't get your argument, slayer.

It seems clear to me that we all know GW is to blame for shoddy balance. What we are saying is that considering the existence of poor balance is out of our hands, we can reach compromises with our opponents (outside tournaments) concerning what type of game we want to play.

Asking someone to play a more casual list isnt putting the blame on GW, its trying to reach a point where both parties are satisfied with the game that they are about to sink 2-3 hours in.

The opponent is free to say no and its up to both players to reach an understanding. If i want a more casual game because im playing Gk with a premade army that i bought in one shot, asking my opponent to maybe not run a top tier list is fine. If he refuses, i can in return ask if he would allow me to use count-as or proxies for more powerful models (using regular termies as paladins for example). If my opponent refuses that then it becomes a person problem instead of a GW problem because it makes it clear that the person only wants to win with the op list.

this is where the breakdown happens. compromise is a concept foreign to some people. you could say entitled, you could say spoiled, but it really is both. why should the world give you everything? why should x beat y when all else is equal? It's really easy to say no to a game, but if you put a little effort in working with someone, you'll have more and fun games.

Karol is fun to pick on, but they are a product of their fethed up meta. Their perspective would be very different if they were introduced to the game in a chill and permissive environment. Hell it would've been really unfun to start the game in 8th with one of the weakest factions in a meta where OP eldar is course du jour. But that's no excuse for how they seem to paint all eldar players with the same brush.

I really hope the other factions get more love. for the health of the community and game as a whole.

Hecaton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


They're not the real strongest army right now. Harlequins are.

They have an extremely high performance floor.

go on

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


They're not the real strongest army right now. Harlequins are.

They have an extremely high performance floor.

go on

I mean that's what I have to say, and it's why Astartes are still egregious even though they might not be literally the most powerful faction. They receive the lions share of releases, and are powerful in a way that makes it nearly impossible to play "casual" games of them. Meanwhile, Harlequins are probably the most bare-bones faction in the game.

Harlequins need some points tweaks. Astartes are emblematic of what's wrong with GW's business model, and the title of this thread.

Harlies shouldn't even be a standalone army to begin with but here we are anyway. But having never played against them, SM were a problem even in casual play because their base power was incredibly high whereas harlies apparently weren't like that.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


They're not the real strongest army right now. Harlequins are.

its weird how like, let's see...three percent of the competitive playerbase is choosing to go with "The Strongest Army."

Do competitive players hate winning, I wonder?

 BlackoCatto wrote:
So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.

Admech has been seeing some pretty major releases regularly since they were dropped. Almost keeping pace with Marines.

Guard are due for an update IMHO, but Guard also had the deepest forgeworld selection up until FW starting axing those models and then became just about producing Horus Heresy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


They're not the real strongest army right now. Harlequins are.

its weird how like, let's see...three percent of the competitive playerbase is choosing to go with "The Strongest Army."

Do competitive players hate winning, I wonder?

There hasn't been a big enough tournament. Currently, when they do go out, the very top competitive players are mostly refining and testing. With all the big big tournies on lockdown, there's less reason to go with what is appearing to be the top top meta, or going with a list that is antimeta.

There are also a few competitive players that are faction loyal, usually to an imperial faction.

stratigo wrote:

 BlackoCatto wrote:
So when we say Imperials do we mean just Marines. I know besides some limited editions models that could be said that maybe some Guard players managed to grab and a Sisters revamp that has been waiting for 20+ years, there hasn't been that much beyond Marines.

Admech has been seeing some pretty major releases regularly since they were dropped. Almost keeping pace with Marines.

Guard are due for an update IMHO, but Guard also had the deepest forgeworld selection up until FW starting axing those models and then became just about producing Horus Heresy.


There are also a few competitive players that are faction loyal, usually to an imperial faction.

I'm not looking for a fight now, and I don't really know the "stats", but exactly how is Admech almost keeping pace with SM?
Hasn't Admech gotten a tank, dogs, copter and their jump infantry? That's four units. I've probably missed one, so say five.
How many has SM gotten the past two years?

The current Astartes and their supplements are problematic for the game because they will never truly be able to balance them properly because the books are fundamentally bad design. (and design and balance are interlinked yet separate concepts!)

I hate to trot this out, but I used to work in the games industry, I used to be a games designer. Games have been my passion for my entire life (which is why I don't work in the industry anymore as it's a great way to kill your passion and give you mental breakdowns!) and I would like to think I have a good grasp on the core concepts of designing games, how to balance them in terms of internal power levels but also so that they can be enjoyable and interesting to play etc.

The way Marines are set out currently is just so obviously a bad idea it boggles the mind. They get about 50% more than anyone else ruleswise but pay nothing for these bonuses. Games are built on choices and decisions, with strengths being countered by drawbacks. Just look at the stupid amounts of stacked bonuses a chapter like BA gets and then see if they pay any extra points for these incredibly powerful mechanics. Of course they don't, but they also never will, or in the process of making them pay extra points, GW will cause issues for other chapters.

I mean it's just such a fundamental big No-No to do. Go and look at any other system or videogame and you see strengths and drawbacks. Species Traits in Stellaris based off of a Points and Picks system, to stop you from just choosing nothing but OP traits. Powerful ranged attack heroes in Dota 2 having long turn rates so they can't endlessly kite people. Teutonic Knights in AOE2 have obscenely good stats and a large health pool, but they're slow as all hell and melee. Big weapons with extreme attack stats in the Souls games usually have high weight, drain lots of stamina and their size makes using them in tight spaces problematic. And so on.

The worst part is, this can't be solved by changing points around. Not just because of the example I gave earlier, but because Marines are getting everything stacked on top in easy ways to access and remain a fundamentally low skill floor low skill ceiling army, they will always be frustrating to play against. Something can be "balanced" and still be miserable to experience. To use Dota 2 as an example again: Goblin Techies and Naga Siren, even in periods where they had a sub 40% winrate in competitive games, were groaned at and booed by people whenever they were picked. It didn't matter that they weren't powerful, it was that they made the game a miserable and frustrating experience to watch and play. It doesn't matter if points increases make Marines un-viable in competitive environs. If I play a game vs BA and an Intercessor Sergeant is still more deadly in CC than basically every other armies powerful HQ choices then that's a bad, frustrating experience. It's like how Altaioc Flyers weren't ever really completely dominating the competitive meta at any point, or indeed any of the mass -1 subfactions were, but one Altaioc plane in a casual game was a miserable time for a Guard or Tau player and would negatively impact their experience of playing the game.

 Bosskelot wrote:
The current Astartes and their supplements are problematic for the game because they will never truly be able to balance them properly because the books are fundamentally bad design. (and design and balance are interlinked yet separate concepts!)

Marines are badly designed. They just have too many options. Which make it so if they are internaly balanced they will probably be either trash or always good. GW changes the core rules and faction rules all the time so the meta is always in a state of flux. If the marines are not bad and well balanced they can adapt better than any other faction and will be seen everywhere. If they are just too expensive/weak then they cant build lists strong enough even if they adapt. Even though marines have been nerfed in 9th compared to late 8th the core rules and missions drastically changed the way the game is being played. It didnt affect marines too bad since they just have so many options that are all rather good now. Tau is the opposite.

Marines can do lists with all models have 12+ inches of fly movement if there are lots of terrain and LOS blocks that prevent non flying infantry from moving around or shooting. If the terrain allows it they could be even faster and on bikes if people didnt play ruins. They can forward deploy the whole army, including multiple HQ options, if that is favorable under the missions. All walkers or all tanks is also possible. They could go all in on T4 2w 3+ or T4 3w 1/2+ or T5 3w 3+ depending on the meta. They can play with lots or zero psykers. Pure melee focused or almost pure ranged focus. They could do drop pod assault lists. The options are just too many.

The detachment system really plays to marines as well. With such a huge roster of units and the option to go for all elite or fast or heavy make it so if any of those categories becomes better in the meta for some reason they can really lean in to that. Many other armies are more limited by the rule of 3 but marines can take 3 different terminators or a handful of dreadnoughts.

Earlier editions models were more restricted in what they could do each turn as well so being good at everything wasnt always that good if you had to pay for it. But now with smaller tables and a focus on movement/combat marines can do it all. You have multiple ways to move up the table, can shoot effectively while doing so and then assault. No more staying still to shoot your heavy weapons or sacrificing bolter fire for assaulting. Every unit can do everything and marines can always choose the best one of multiple options best suited for the current environment.

I play marines and want a lot of datasheets and special rules removed so there are some things marines arent very good at. They should be good at everything but not right now where they are the best at many things just from their sheer amount of options. There should be less overly specialized units seeing play and more allround units on the tables. More tactical marines and assault marines, less eradicators and vanguard/SG.

They really need to expand the design space of other factions to give them the width of design marines have.

This would give a chance for more depth in the game as well, a lot of the issues over the years have been half done expansions with little thought to the game. Flyers and super heavy being the two main ones.
This miniature first above all else has even led the game to be quite bland if you look at it outside of fairly specific area GW has focus on.
I think that needs to change for ballance to even be a real possibility.

I don't disagree. 40k has a lot of elements that really shouldn't be here if you wanted to make a fun game.
Superheavies, particularly entire factions of them (Knights) will inherently skew whatever games they're a part of. Equally but oppositely you have massive hordes of Gaunts or Guardsman which just skew things the other way.
How can you possibly create a balanced list that can equally deal with 4 Knights or 400 Guardsman? It's just not possible and that's a big problem for the game, which is what leads to this general "rock, paper, scissors" feeling of list building.

Hecaton wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Imagine not fixing your own army and telling the other player THEY need to adjust to YOUR needs.

Imagine having a game balanced enough where this isn't necessary...

That'd pretty much begin & end with Chess & Go.

Lolno. When I play Infinity I don't have to have a conversation with my opponent about what units they're allowed to bring or not; I'm confident that pretty much no matter what we bring, the game will be decided by who plays better. Once you start looking outside of the GW bubble you realize their balance is bad. Really really bad.

LOL yes.
GW? I've known what GW is/isn't for decades. And outside the tourney scenes? I've yet to encounter a minis game where we haven't discussed what type of game/xp we're aiming for. This includes your precious Infinity.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't disagree. 40k has a lot of elements that really shouldn't be here if you wanted to make a fun game.
Superheavies, particularly entire factions of them (Knights) will inherently skew whatever games they're a part of. Equally but oppositely you have massive hordes of Gaunts or Guardsman which just skew things the other way.
How can you possibly create a balanced list that can equally deal with 4 Knights or 400 Guardsman? It's just not possible and that's a big problem for the game, which is what leads to this general "rock, paper, scissors" feeling of list building.

I don't know, some of the new secondaries do that rather well. As an ork player, bringing vastly more than 120 boyz is now a liability because of Thin Their ranks.
Knights mostly suffer from being unable to hold multiple objectives well and also give up 10 VP for just killing a single one.

Other kill secondary aren't balanced as well, but these two work rather nicely IMO.

I've not really played, but my theory crafting tells me secondaries only discourage taking a 'combined arms' approach.
Because each secondary is capped at 15 vp, they can kill 100 or 400 Boyz and it's still 15 vp.
But if you supplemented those Boyz with Trucks or Buggies or whatever, they're still scoring 15 vp for killing the boyz, but now they're also scoring points for killing your vehicles as well.

If, however, all of the "kill X thing" secondaries were in the same category, that would potentially encourage a combined arms approach more. As you would limit the opponent's ability to score any one secondary, without giving them the opportunity to score all the secondaries.

As ork, combined arms will lose you the game, no matter what you do. That's just how the army has always worked, because it's only defense mechanism is "bring more".

In any case, they need to kill 150 boyz for 15 VP, which translates to 1200 points already, before add HQs and support characters. The 4-5 additional buggies you can afford on top of that will not reward another 15 VP, as vehicles below 10 wounds are only 2VP a piece - and even then, it would require your entire army to be tabled to get all the VP.

That said, the vehicle/monster trait is a badly balanced one. Even without trying to build a skew army, it's just way to easy to give up 15 VP here. It's the sole reason why ork buggies don't see any competitive play despite being a really good army.