Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and the Sword of the emperor.

What definitions do you have for what they "should" be more resiliant to?

They should treat mid range weapons as basic weapons, when big stuff should not care if they are -1D, because if you get hit by a plasma anihilator you just go poof.

And I think the change does achive that. But I ain't a psyker, who knows what mr Xeno is thinking right now.

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

I fail to see how Plague Marines are going to be weak to Bolter Fire, even Intercessor Bolter with that 1 extra AP.

I didn't do the math, but I'm pretty sure you need like a full 10man squad of Intercessors to kill a single Plague Marine... Toughness 5 and 2 Wounds is quite durable.

Hell, they are worse vs Splinter Fire than normal Bolter Fire...

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

Nope, even if you had a bolter that auto hit, auto wounds with -5 ap, they still survive more shots now per model.

Maybe he counts the potential of old DR saves.
I mean with luck or loaded dice, a DG PM could be more or less immune to bolter fire.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

Ap changes nothing to the outcome. These bolters with AP already exist in the game right now.

Pre codex : they have 33% chance of living to a bolter shot, even if the shot has 100000AP
Post codex : they have a 100% chance of living to the same bolter shot

I think the main issue is how the rules came out. The DG community was promised 2 wounds and they assumed that would be in conjunction to their current rules. So in their heads they did math early on drooling how Godlike they will be against small arms. Now that feels snatched away. But the main point is if they had done that and basically invalidated everyone's basic firearms with that buff they probably would have been nerfed in points so much that their offensive power would have been severely affected. This is a good way to give some defence, and flavor without having to make them 25+ points. Also I would bet dollars to donuts that the zombies will keep some type of save but until then arguing that they are ruined kind of just makes you look rash and ranty.

Let's wait until the whole book comes out before we condemn it as a whole. Now that doesn't mean don't talk about the rule in question but why are we even talking about plague bearers?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

Ap changes nothing to the outcome. These bolters with AP already exist in the game right now.

Pre codex : they have 33% chance of living to a bolter shot, even if the shot has 100000AP
Post codex : they have a 100% chance of living to the same bolter shot

I'm fairly sure we're just being trolled now tbh.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

Ap changes nothing to the outcome. These bolters with AP already exist in the game right now.

Pre codex : they have 33% chance of living to a bolter shot, even if the shot has 100000AP
Post codex : they have a 100% chance of living to the same bolter shot

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Taking Ap into account.

Shot with something AP -4, 1dmg

New codex: Guaranteed one wound taken.
Old codex: MAYBE a wound taken.
AP matters a lot.

And we haven't even started talking about mortal wounds.

You are probably right. Anyone who throws in that many all caps words is trolling.

11% isn't what I would consider "far from certain."

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

Ap changes nothing to the outcome. These bolters with AP already exist in the game right now.

Pre codex : they have 33% chance of living to a bolter shot, even if the shot has 100000AP
Post codex : they have a 100% chance of living to the same bolter shot

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Lol nice misrepresented math there. You forgot that under the old rules you could lose 2 marines for 2 failed armour saves. Now you can only lose 1. And under the old it was like a 11% chance to lose none.

 Thadin wrote:
11% isn't what I would consider "far from certain."

Would you rather take a 100% risk of getting kicked in the nuts, or just a 89% risk? Do those 11% seem like a lot or just a speck?

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Thadin wrote:
11% isn't what I would consider "far from certain."

Would you rather take a 100% risk of getting kicked in the nuts, or just a 89% risk? Do those 11% seem like a lot or just a speck?

I'd rather take the 0% chance. Which is what Plague Marines with 2 wounds will now have when it comes to dying to a single bolter shot.

Des702 wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Castozor wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.

And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.

Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....

Unless the bolter has Ap. Which always does. Interscessors.

Ap changes nothing to the outcome. These bolters with AP already exist in the game right now.

Pre codex : they have 33% chance of living to a bolter shot, even if the shot has 100000AP
Post codex : they have a 100% chance of living to the same bolter shot

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Lol nice misrepresented math there. You forgot that under the old rules you could lose 2 marines for 2 failed armour saves. Now you can only lose 1. And under the old it was like a 11% chance to lose none.

I can't lose two marines if I don't have two marines.
Now, say I have two marines (at least), yes I can lose two marines, or I could lose zero marines.
With the new rules, I would lose a marine, no matter what.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CommunistNapkin wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Thadin wrote:
11% isn't what I would consider "far from certain."

Would you rather take a 100% risk of getting kicked in the nuts, or just a 89% risk? Do those 11% seem like a lot or just a speck?

I'd rather take the 0% chance. Which is what Plague Marines with 2 wounds will now have when it comes to dying to a single bolter shot.

Agreed, but how often is a PM shot with a single bolter shot? Not often? I agree. Are they most often gonna get shot with multiple shots? Yes.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 Thadin wrote:
11% isn't what I would consider "far from certain."

Would you rather take a 100% risk of getting kicked in the nuts, or just a 89% risk? Do those 11% seem like a lot or just a speck?

More accurately it is would you 100% like to get kicked in the nuts or 11% don't, 44% once, 44% twice.

If you have no plague marines, then you cannot lose any plague marines. If you don't show up with an army, it can't lose since it's not there.

Brilliant argument.

I don't have DG can they be taken in squads of 1 /s

Sure they might be better in that specific scenario but that is kind of reaching for straws.

We're taking MSU to a whole new level in the DG codex, didn't you hear? that's right. units with 0 models in them.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Taking Ap into account.

Shot with something AP -4, 1dmg

New codex: Guaranteed one wound taken.
Old codex: MAYBE a wound taken.
AP matters a lot.

And we haven't even started talking about mortal wounds.

all our calculations are made with the bolter shots that did wound and we failed our FnP si yes, AP is irrelevant.

100 bolter shots with no AP fired by unbuffed marines : 4.938 old PM dead, 3.704 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -1 fired by unbuffed marines : 7.407 old PM dead, 5.556 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -2 fired by unbuffed marines : 9.877 old PM dead, 7.407 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -3 fired by unbuffed marines : 12.346 old PM dead, 9.259 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -4 fired by unbuffed marines : 14.815 old PM dead, 11.111 new PM dead

there, math proof that theyre more resilient to any bolter now

Serious question would you really want them 1 wound with old disgustingly resilience?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Taking Ap into account.

Shot with something AP -4, 1dmg

New codex: Guaranteed one wound taken.
Old codex: MAYBE a wound taken.
AP matters a lot.

And we haven't even started talking about mortal wounds.

all our calculations are made with the bolter shots that did wound and we failed our FnP si yes, AP is irrelevant.

100 bolter shots with no AP fired by unbuffed marines : 4.938 old PM dead, 3.704 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -1 fired by unbuffed marines : 7.407 old PM dead, 5.556 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -2 fired by unbuffed marines : 9.877 old PM dead, 7.407 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -3 fired by unbuffed marines : 12.346 old PM dead, 9.259 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -4 fired by unbuffed marines : 14.815 old PM dead, 11.111 new PM dead

there, math proof that theyre more resilient to any bolter now

Huh! I don't doubt the maths ( I honestly suck at probability), but I would love to see the actual calculations!
I stand corrected again. Thanks! This is absolutely something I like being wrong about!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
Serious question would you really want them 1 wound with old disgustingly resilience?

Yes. The chance of survival is way more fun to me than a guaranteed dead or alive model.
The thing I hate about "new" Warhammer (besides vehicle armour, weapon arcs and vehicle facings) is the lack of randomness.
It was fun gambling on deepstriking! It was fun to have the possibility of your guys surviving despite being dealt 3 wounds.

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Huh! I don't doubt the maths ( I honestly suck at probability), but I would love to see the actual calculations!
I stand corrected again. Thanks! This is absolutely something I like being wrong about!

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

you can fill out this form and check it yourself.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Huh! I don't doubt the maths ( I honestly suck at probability), but I would love to see the actual calculations!
I stand corrected again. Thanks! This is absolutely something I like being wrong about!

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

you can fill out this form and check it yourself.

Thank you very much!

 Kall3m0n wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
Serious question would you really want them 1 wound with old disgustingly resilience?

Yes. The chance of survival is way more fun to me than a guaranteed dead or alive model.
The thing I hate about "new" Warhammer (besides vehicle armour, weapon arcs and vehicle facings) is the lack of randomness.
It was fun gambling on deepstriking! It was fun to have the possibility of your guys surviving despite being dealt 3 wounds.

See this is a valid way to approach it. The new DR is better than the old for infantry but it feels lees fun to you because its a yes/no option instead of a "maybe". Just don't go and say that more marines will die with the new one than the old. I cant argue against your opinion/what you like

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Taking Ap into account.

Shot with something AP -4, 1dmg

New codex: Guaranteed one wound taken.
Old codex: MAYBE a wound taken.
AP matters a lot.

And we haven't even started talking about mortal wounds.

all our calculations are made with the bolter shots that did wound and we failed our FnP si yes, AP is irrelevant.

100 bolter shots with no AP fired by unbuffed marines : 4.938 old PM dead, 3.704 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -1 fired by unbuffed marines : 7.407 old PM dead, 5.556 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -2 fired by unbuffed marines : 9.877 old PM dead, 7.407 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -3 fired by unbuffed marines : 12.346 old PM dead, 9.259 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -4 fired by unbuffed marines : 14.815 old PM dead, 11.111 new PM dead

there, math proof that theyre more resilient to any bolter now

Huh! I don't doubt the maths ( I honestly suck at probability), but I would love to see the actual calculations!
I stand corrected again. Thanks! This is absolutely something I like being wrong about!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
Serious question would you really want them 1 wound with old disgustingly resilience?

Yes. The chance of survival is way more fun to me than a guaranteed dead or alive model.
The thing I hate about "new" Warhammer (besides vehicle armour, weapon arcs and vehicle facings) is the lack of randomness.
It was fun gambling on deepstriking! It was fun to have the possibility of your guys surviving despite being dealt 3 wounds.

That is fair. I miss the whole weapons arcs and blast templates too. But I disagree that this is a flat nerf and that somehow DG is unplayable. Maybe it's just not the way you like to play them.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Huh! I don't doubt the maths ( I honestly suck at probability), but I would love to see the actual calculations!
I stand corrected again. Thanks! This is absolutely something I like being wrong about!

https://www.mathhammer8thed.com/web/

you can fill out this form and check it yourself.

I did see some fun stats when getting shot with weapons with dmg 3. Then the survivability of 1w, 5+fnp is better than 2W, no FNP.
But then it feels like I'm grasping fopr straws. dmg 3 isn't very prevalent


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Kall3m0n wrote:

Two bolter shot.
In this scenario they both hit.
Two armour saves. Fail one and always take a guaratnteed wound.
Old codex: Fail one and MAYBE take a wound resulting in death.

Other scenario:
Two bolters hit.
Fail both saves: Guaranteed dead model
Old codex: Probably a dead marine, but FAR from certain.

Taking Ap into account.

Shot with something AP -4, 1dmg

New codex: Guaranteed one wound taken.
Old codex: MAYBE a wound taken.
AP matters a lot.

And we haven't even started talking about mortal wounds.

all our calculations are made with the bolter shots that did wound and we failed our FnP si yes, AP is irrelevant.

100 bolter shots with no AP fired by unbuffed marines : 4.938 old PM dead, 3.704 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -1 fired by unbuffed marines : 7.407 old PM dead, 5.556 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -2 fired by unbuffed marines : 9.877 old PM dead, 7.407 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -3 fired by unbuffed marines : 12.346 old PM dead, 9.259 new PM dead
100 bolter shots with AP -4 fired by unbuffed marines : 14.815 old PM dead, 11.111 new PM dead

there, math proof that theyre more resilient to any bolter now

Huh! I don't doubt the maths ( I honestly suck at probability), but I would love to see the actual calculations!
I stand corrected again. Thanks! This is absolutely something I like being wrong about!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Des702 wrote:
Serious question would you really want them 1 wound with old disgustingly resilience?

Yes. The chance of survival is way more fun to me than a guaranteed dead or alive model.
The thing I hate about "new" Warhammer (besides vehicle armour, weapon arcs and vehicle facings) is the lack of randomness.
It was fun gambling on deepstriking! It was fun to have the possibility of your guys surviving despite being dealt 3 wounds.

That is fair. I miss the whole weapons arcs and blast templates too. But I disagree that this is a flat nerf and that somehow DG is unplayable. Maybe it's just not the way you like to play them.

You have a fair point too! I should maybe have been more vocal about this being MY opinion.
When I do play them, I might even change my mind, but in this vacuum and before the rest of the rules are released, I absolutely HATE the new "Disgustingly resiliant".