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Until we see what all happens, we shouldn't panic just yet. The contagions thing may have a silver lining for us as well the surgeon might actually end up a good buy, as if he gives back FNP in an aura, that could be huge then you are stacking -1 damage with FNP, that is some good soup.
I'm kind of wondering how it'll interact with demons as I have nurglings, because I love them and this kind of makes them worse to small arms, which they were better against but better vs heavier weapons so some of this seems odd to me with how it'll roll down to other nurgle units.
Xenomancers wrote: Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.
And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.
Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....
Of course it counts.
You're tougher than you used to be because having a second wound is better than ignoring 1/3 of wounds.
You're tougher than loyalists by virtue of T5 and a damage reduction ability, which just happens to counter the most important aspect of MEQ-killing guns.
If you were tough enough under the previous book, your state has only improved unless you are being hit exclusively by D3+ weapons and have an uncanny ability to roll batches of 5+.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/10 23:44:25
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company.
Xenomancers wrote: Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.
And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.
Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....
Which every marine gets so it doesn't count.
Did you somehow miss that they're T5? PM are more resilient than regular SM/CSM to any S4 or S5 shooting or any shooting that's D2. That's a huge range of very common weapons, including the most common weapon in the game: the bolter/bolt rifle.
Stats don't exist in a vacuum. Yes, PM having 2 wounds isn't a buff over any other SM but the combination of W2 T5 and DR makes them overall more quite a lot more survivable against the array of weapons most likely to be fired at them so it's an overall buff in resilience compared to other SM stat lines.
Xenomancers wrote: Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.
And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.
Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....
Which every marine gets so it doesn't count.
Yeah that's not how this works, and your arguments really don't make any sense to the contrary.
That's been a very poor attitude throughout today, though. As a Xenos player, It's like an insult. New codex comes out, your Troops go up from 1 W to 2 W. That's fantastic.
If I get 2W Wracks in the new Drukhari codex I wouldn't dare say it doesn't count. I'll save that remark for the new Incubi rules that are immediately countered by the new disgustingly resilient rule.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/11 00:29:11
Xenomancers wrote: Point is. PM will be more reliant against the things they should be resilient against. Not against Multi meltas and thunder hammers.
And not against bolter fire for some reason. But they do need 2 powerfists to the face now before going down. which must feel great for my opponents, spending all those points for D2 weapons that are now useless.
Theyre more resilient to bolter fire than before with their second wound....
Which every marine gets so it doesn't count.
Regular marines gets wounded by bolters on 4's, Plague marines get wounded on 5's
Honestly Castozor would you be happy getting another wound keeping DR as it is and a large point increase like 5-7 points? That kills your offensive potential. You would just be the army that is good at sitting there.
Besides under the new rule it will still take 18 unbuffed bolter hits to kill one out of cover plague marine. If you got your way it would be 27 thus making all small Armes pretty useless. Which is why I am guessing at least 5 pt increase under your prefered rules
I agree Oaks, it smacks, at least a little bit, of entitlement.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/11 00:34:33
Yes T5 does make our extra wound count more, as it should. But I feel people argue DR nerfs aren't bad because "you get an extra wound you are already more durable than before against D1" yeah no gak sherlock. It did the same for loyalist and will for CSM when they get their book. This new rule is nonsensical, and yes I would pay more for the extra wound with proper DR gladly. The new rule doesn't make me happy and won't make opponent's happy. You paid for all them D2 weapons? Well feth you they are useless now. As for my PM, they were always tougher and had DR, now we get: nothing? What a greaaaat feel.
Oaka wrote: That's been a very poor attitude throughout today, though. As a Xenos player, It's like an insult. New codex comes out, your Troops go up from 1 W to 2 W. That's fantastic.
If I get 2W Wracks in the new Drukhari codex I wouldn't dare say it doesn't count. I'll save that remark for the new Incubi rules that are immediately countered by the new disgustingly resilient rule.
Well good for you but it means nothing to me. Everyone already knew Marines of all flavors got to have 2 wounds. This does not count as "extra durability" when it was already a given. DR was hard nerfed and anyone with an iota of sense knows this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 00:33:24
Castozor wrote: The new rule doesn't make me happy and won't make opponent's happy.
Well good for you but it means nothing to me.
You briefly flirted with the idea that the DR rules change will actually make the game less enjoyable for your opponent, but then quickly reverted to only really caring about how it works for you, all in the same post.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 00:40:16
this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Castozor wrote: The new rule doesn't make me happy and won't make opponent's happy.
Well good for you but it means nothing to me.
You briefly flirted with the idea that the DR rules change will actually make the game less enjoyable for your opponent, but then quickly reverted to only really caring about how it works for you, all in the same post.
Think again Xeno scum, 5+ DR is easy and scales equally for all damage. The new one invalidates D2 for no reason and is worse against everything else. I'm not happy with this rule for myself and for my opponents, but for some reason you had to take it personally and thought DG players like myself are privileged for trying to keep a rule we always had. If that is indeed the take of all DE players then yes, suffer like we do. It was an insult to you and not players in general.
Des702 wrote: But it wasn't given to them. You are arguing for a profile that never existed. One that would render 70% of your opponents guns completely pointless.
Yes it wasn't given to us because GW favors marines. And no it wouldn't invalidate 70% of profiles because D2 would actually be more efficient which you naysayers like to claim is 50% of the weapons leveled against us are anyway. Face it, 2W was a given, as it will be for CSM whenever they get their codex. And compared to old DR and now DR has been absolutely gutted for an army that was never top tier to begin with. You GW fanboys can spin it anyway you want but this was a nerf for no reason to our durability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/11 01:09:10
BrianDavion wrote: this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
Agreed. The loss of those crazy memorable all 6s DR moments is worth it for the logistics streamlining taking place here.
It's fair to think DR is worse off when considering the entire roster of units but we are missing a lot of faction info to make that call.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Castozor wrote: I'm not happy with this rule for myself and for my opponents, but for some reason you had to take it personally and thought DG players like myself are privileged for trying to keep a rule we always had. If that is indeed the take of all DE players then yes, suffer like we do.
Good point about DE players, we had a lovely 5th edition codex that was completely stripped of options, so that certainly makes me less sympathetic when I hear complaints about a rules change.
What I don't understand is why DG players are choosing the plague marine hill to die on. Bring up the changes to disgustingly resilient and how it affects vehicles and demon engines, we would all agree then that the rule is worse. The math will actually be on your side, then. The math is not on your side when it comes to the durability of a plague marine, so it really shouldn't be the point you try to drive home about being nerfed.
Castozor wrote: I'm not happy with this rule for myself and for my opponents, but for some reason you had to take it personally and thought DG players like myself are privileged for trying to keep a rule we always had. If that is indeed the take of all DE players then yes, suffer like we do.
Good point about DE players, we had a lovely 5th edition codex that was completely stripped of options, so that certainly makes me less sympathetic when I hear complaints about a rules change.
What I don't understand is why DG players are choosing the plague marine hill to die on. Bring up the changes to disgustingly resilient and how it affects vehicles and demon engines, we would all agree then that the rule is worse. The math will actually be on your side, then. The math is not on your side when it comes to the durability of a plague marine, so it really shouldn't be the point you try to drive home about being nerfed.
Because that's the first hill we die on. Then it's the fluff hill. Then it's the vehicle rule that makes our vehicles crap. We will probably see mass infantry from DG now that vehicles are gak. Unless they cut the points in half for them.
BrianDavion wrote: this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
Agreed. The loss of those crazy memorable all 6s DR moments is worth it for the logistics streamlining taking place here.
It's fair to think DR is worse off when considering the entire roster of units but we are missing a lot of faction info to make that call.
this, it's over all a wash IMHO DR was always dice dependant, sometimes you got lucky and sometimes you couldn't roll a 5+ if your life depended on it, this is more consistant, and yeah the streamlining is big.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
That will never happen. We're not spehs mureens.
And yes, reliabilty is great! It removes epic clutch moments and replaces them with "Meh. I knew that was gonna happen because I did the math."
BrianDavion wrote: this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
Agreed. The loss of those crazy memorable all 6s DR moments is worth it for the logistics streamlining taking place here.
It's fair to think DR is worse off when considering the entire roster of units but we are missing a lot of faction info to make that call.
this, it's over all a wash IMHO DR was always dice dependant, sometimes you got lucky and sometimes you couldn't roll a 5+ if your life depended on it, this is more consistant, and yeah the streamlining is big.
Agreed! being consistant is way more fun. Just remember all the epic moments when everything went just as statistics proven. Reminisce of that amazing time when you knew everything would be fine/crap because it was reliable. And let's all tell the tales of every time you rolled exactly average and nothing surprising or extremely heroic happened.
I want a game completely derived of chance. That's why I love this game that's based or dice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/11 01:51:20
Because that's the first hill we die on. Then it's the fluff hill. Then it's the vehicle rule that makes our vehicles crap. We will probably see mass infantry from DG now that vehicles are gak. Unless they cut the points in half for them.
I'm fairly certain that with the changes we've seen so far, assuming no massive points increases, this will make Death Guard vehicles cheaper, more durable, with better melee, and with comparable or better firepower than most Imperial Guard vehicles.
Because that's the first hill we die on. Then it's the fluff hill. Then it's the vehicle rule that makes our vehicles crap. We will probably see mass infantry from DG now that vehicles are gak. Unless they cut the points in half for them.
I'm fairly certain that with the changes we've seen so far, assuming no massive points increases, this will make Death Guard vehicles cheaper, more durable, with better melee, and with comparable or better firepower than most Imperial Guard vehicles.
I am curious... With the removal of the 5+ FNP (the bloat drones LOST one wound), in what way will they be cheaper, MORE durable, have better melee and even have better firepower than most IG tanks?
Castozor wrote: As for my PM, they were always tougher and had DR, now we get: nothing?
Your PMs were always tougher and had DR.
Now they're still tougher and have a different DR. One which is perfectly tailored against the D2 weapons spammed to kill W2 Marines.
With 8th being dominated by Primaris, who with their second wound were about as tough as Plague Marines, you are now the undisputed toughest Marines on the tabletop.
So let's tally it up:
-You're getting objectively tougher than you are currently.
-You're still objectively, significantly tougher than Firstborn/CSM who are also getting the extra wound.
-You're now objectively, significantly tougher than Primaris, who prior to this have kinda made you look like chumps.
What are you actually complaining about? That you didn't just straight-up double your durability and are envious of Firstborn/CSM? If that's your complaint, own it for the pettiness that it is, instead of dressing it up as these absurd 'my models suck now' or 'we lost everything that made us special' or 'now we'll get gunned down by bolters' bs.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/11 02:06:46
For the record, for those complaining "what about Iron Hands!!!!1!", that's only on a 6+ and quite frankly I'd be ecstatic if they had this instead. Hell for the homebrew I was working on this was one of my ideas for them to help decrease rolls.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
BrianDavion wrote: this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
BrianDavion wrote: this is actually a good change. it's reliable so that you can plan around it, reduces rolling, etc. there may be ways to buff this on a unit (a psykic spell that increases that to "ignore 2 wounds, for example)
Dukeofstuff wrote: I reckon people will end up bringing a few more eradicators and simply wipe the plague marines with melta volley fire.
I think you overestimate how overpowered Eradicators are. I am certain most Chaos space marine players would absolutely love for their loyalist marine player to waste Eradicators on Plague Marines. If I could count on my opponent doing that I'd certainly bring some Bringers of Despair into my Black Legion army. And that's costing me an Elites slot and not even getting me ObSec.
Don't get me wrong, I am a Primaris player, and I think that Eradicators could be toned down some, but what you suggest seems like bad target priority management to me. Eradicators are fantastic, but they ain't that fantastic.
Disgusting Resilience appears to want to some lateral thinking to judge is value in the full context of everything. I am not sure we have all the pieces to fully assess it yet. I think even with what has been shown is pretty good even if it isn't directly apparent.
Castozor wrote: I'm not happy with this rule for myself and for my opponents, but for some reason you had to take it personally and thought DG players like myself are privileged for trying to keep a rule we always had. If that is indeed the take of all DE players then yes, suffer like we do.
Good point about DE players, we had a lovely 5th edition codex that was completely stripped of options, so that certainly makes me less sympathetic when I hear complaints about a rules change.
What I don't understand is why DG players are choosing the plague marine hill to die on. Bring up the changes to disgustingly resilient and how it affects vehicles and demon engines, we would all agree then that the rule is worse. The math will actually be on your side, then. The math is not on your side when it comes to the durability of a plague marine, so it really shouldn't be the point you try to drive home about being nerfed.
Because that's the first hill we die on. Then it's the fluff hill. Then it's the vehicle rule that makes our vehicles crap. We will probably see mass infantry from DG now that vehicles are gak. Unless they cut the points in half for them.
Crap? It's the same as Relentless Hatred/Duty Eternal, which I've heard lots of people call "broken" (it's not). You don't want -1D on all of your tanks? Cool, can I have it for mine? I'm sure players of lots of factions would love to have that rule for their vehicles.
Chopping the effectiveness of 2D weapons in half on your now 2W infantry will also be great once everyone starts loading up on 2D weapons to deal with all of the now 2W marines running around, especially once all of the spikey boys get their buffs. Sure, they're weaker against D3, but how much cheap, available D3 is there floating around? And if your opponent wants to shoot their meltas at your Plague Marines, good, that means they aren't shooting them at your tanks, which means they don't know what they're doing, which means you've already won.
Personally, I'd calm down with all of this sky is falling stuff until I knew what the Contagions rules did. If they're a bust, then break out the salt.