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This is my favorite bit of space marine player privilege right here
Considering the armies I had when I actively played were Tau (before they got "empire" tacked on) and Dark Eldar, instead of "marine privilege", it might've been, oh, i don't know, a common way to refer to things that have been replaced by newer things? Would it satisfy you if I called them "old-style" marines?
Xenomancers wrote: True it is just my opinion. I guess some people like the old scouts I guess. I think they are ugly. Catachan infantry look more intimidatings.
Old scouts were super cool in the metal sculpts. They plastic sculpts are kind of fail even wehn they were made.
Xenomancers wrote: True it is just my opinion. I guess some people like the old scouts I guess. I think they are ugly. Catachan infantry look more intimidatings.
Old scouts were super cool in the metal sculpts. They plastic sculpts are kind of fail even wehn they were made.
Xenomancers wrote: True it is just my opinion. I guess some people like the old scouts I guess. I think they are ugly. Catachan infantry look more intimidatings.
Old scouts were super cool in the metal sculpts. They plastic sculpts are kind of fail even wehn they were made.
Love the metal scouts.
Likewise. They are far superior to the plastics (and Phobos). I've collected a ton of them through ebay over the last few years.
Either way it's demonstrably false since the classic marines were GWs top selling range for two decades. Besides. . . Primaris are basically just doubling down on all the power fantasy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/24 12:53:43
Some of the new stuff is quite nice, the Primaris tactical marine equivalents are very nice. The new bikers look great.
The heavier armour dudes, the scouts, and the jump pack dudes I think don't look as good. The dreadnaughts I can take or leave, they definitely look more plausible but they also look less unique and iconic in the new design. I don't like the marine grav tanks at all, I would prefer them with tracks.
I would have been happier if they had just scaled Guardsmen down to a proper scale rather than scaling marines up, though I totally get from a business standpoint why they did it.
My biggest problem with them is the 32mm bases, which is my problem with all models on 32mm bases. I just vastly prefer 25mm because it is consistent with my earlier stuff. I am generally okay with base size changes for elite units and so on, but on basic troops I really don't like it.
Cronch wrote: Nah, sorry but you can't chalk aesthetic choices to fanboyism. Dumpy, shorter-than-guardsmen marines were always ugly little things liked only by manchildren obsessed with the power fantasy their lore presented. If you like old marines, you're probably an incel.
I have reported this post to moderators.
If it isn’t removed, then you will be taken behind the woodshed.
It's no different than Scotsman's post.
Complain more.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/23 23:28:06
The thing about 40k is that no one person can grasp the fullness of it.
Da Boss wrote: I would have been happier if they had just scaled Guardsmen down to a proper scale rather than scaling marines up, though I totally get from a business standpoint why they did it.
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that the old Space Marines were taller than Guardsmen for a long time; put an old Tactical next to one of the 90s-era pewter Guardsmen or any of the FW Guardsmen and the difference is considerable. It was the Cadian (and, to a lesser extent, the Catachan) plastics that screwed up the scale.
Then again, the canon size of Marines seems to keep going upwards. I remember a photo of Jes Goodwin standing next to a life-size silhouette of a Tactical Marine, measuring 7ft in armor- now people argue over where in the 7-9ft range they're supposed to be, without armor. I guess if GW wants Marines to be demigod supermen and not just augmented dudes in fancy armor, then maybe a scale readjustment was warranted.
Da Boss wrote: I would have been happier if they had just scaled Guardsmen down to a proper scale rather than scaling marines up, though I totally get from a business standpoint why they did it.
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that the old Space Marines were taller than Guardsmen for a long time; put an old Tactical next to one of the 90s-era pewter Guardsmen or any of the FW Guardsmen and the difference is considerable. It was the Cadian (and, to a lesser extent, the Catachan) plastics that screwed up the scale.
Then again, the canon size of Marines seems to keep going upwards. I remember a photo of Jes Goodwin standing next to a life-size silhouette of a Tactical Marine, measuring 7ft in armor- now people argue over where in the 7-9ft range they're supposed to be, without armor. I guess if GW wants Marines to be demigod supermen and not just augmented dudes in fancy armor, then maybe a scale readjustment was warranted.
The desire to continuously inflate the size of a marine is definitely cheapening the idea of a marine a bit. Where there was emphasis on other aspects in prior editions such as technology, leadership and discipline, much of that seems to have been traded away for "moar bigness".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote: Heh. I am building a small guard force and using almost all 90s metals for that reason!
Most of 'em are great models too. Which Regiment are you doing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/23 23:43:14
I am doing a mix actually, Cadians for the elite "Hive Defense Force", Steel Legion for the "Ash Waste Rangers" and Catachans for conscripted workers.
Steel Legion are not technically 90s but fit in well with the old Cadians and Catachans!
Da Boss wrote: I am doing a mix actually, Cadians for the elite "Hive Defense Force", Steel Legion for the "Ash Waste Rangers" and Catachans for conscripted workers.
Steel Legion are not technically 90s but fit in well with the old Cadians and Catachans!
Nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RaptorusRex wrote: Gotta love how this simple returning player's question thread turned into a Primaris hatefest.
Cronch wrote: Nah, sorry but you can't chalk aesthetic choices to fanboyism. Dumpy, shorter-than-guardsmen marines were always ugly little things liked only by manchildren obsessed with the power fantasy their lore presented. If you like old marines, you're probably an incel.
I have reported this post to moderators.
If it isn’t removed, then you will be taken behind the woodshed.
It's no different than Scotsman's post.
Complain more.
Scotsman's post took time, thought, effort and is pointedly humorous. Jumping straight to "incel manchildren" is pretty much the opposite. Lazy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/23 23:56:04
Cronch wrote: Nah, sorry but you can't chalk aesthetic choices to fanboyism. Dumpy, shorter-than-guardsmen marines were always ugly little things liked only by manchildren obsessed with the power fantasy their lore presented. If you like old marines, you're probably an incel.
I have reported this post to moderators. If it isn’t removed, then you will be taken behind the woodshed.
It's no different than Scotsman's post.
Complain more.
Scotsman's post took time, thought, effort and is pointedly humorous. Jumping straight to "incel manchildren" is pretty much the opposite. Lazy.
Call it what you like, but it's no less correct than Scotsman's.
Over-exaggerated and riddled with extremes and missing context - a trait that fits both.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/24 00:11:44
Cronch wrote: Nah, sorry but you can't chalk aesthetic choices to fanboyism. Dumpy, shorter-than-guardsmen marines were always ugly little things liked only by manchildren obsessed with the power fantasy their lore presented. If you like old marines, you're probably an incel.
I have reported this post to moderators.
If it isn’t removed, then you will be taken behind the woodshed.
It's no different than Scotsman's post.
Complain more.
Scotsman's post took time, thought, effort and is pointedly humorous. Jumping straight to "incel manchildren" is pretty much the opposite. Lazy.
Call it what you like, but it's no less correct than Scotsman's.
Over-exaggerated and riddled with extremes and missing context - a trait that fits both.
The method of delivery goes a long way, my friend.
I have reported this post to moderators.
If it isn’t removed, then you will be taken behind the woodshed.
I wonder if in english this means the same thing as in polish, because if it does you are not doing yourself any favours. An insult, no matter how bad, is still less offensive then telling someone you will kill them.
I would have been happier if they had just scaled Guardsmen down to a proper scale rather than scaling marines up, though I totally get from a business standpoint why they did it.
Don't we already know what scale IG updates are going to be , considering we both have human SoB and chaos IG from Blackstone fortress.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
I found his post exceptionally smug, condescending and deliberately rude to those who enjoy the new stuff. But i guess in this age if you agree with someones premise that stuff is ignored.
Hey folks, just cleared out a bunch of alerts, removed some awfully rude posts and handed out some warnings. Only going to ask this once nicely: stay on topic and stick to rule #1.
Dai wrote: I found his post exceptionally smug, condescending and deliberately rude to those who enjoy the new stuff. But i guess in this age if you agree with someones premise that stuff is ignored.
Agreed, and it's a trait I feel that a lot of posters here echo.
Things like the Heresy, or Indomitus Crusade era material, or many attitudes towards Primaris. And, to be clear, that's not to say that you can't have issues with them or that you have to like them or anything - but the implications that if you enjoy that stuff you're a kid or not a "true 40k fan" or you're somehow sullying someone else's hobby are rife.
So, yeah - the implications that "if you like this, you're a kid playing with action man" on the Primaris stuff are equally stupid and ridiculous - we're all playing with action man toys here, let's not act like one brand of Space Marine is "more Space Marine-y" than any other.
To OP, pick what you like, and express what you want from your hobby in your models. The Primaris sculpts are nice, but the old Tacticals are also fine too. No-one's forcing you to do anything you don't want.
r_squared wrote: Thought it was pretty funny myself, what a lovely welcome back to the hobby.
Well, you're welcome. I will freely admit I may be a little overly fond of triggering the small contingent of folks whose attitude seems to boil down to claiming that others aren't 'man enough' to repurchase their entire 500$ plastic spaceman army because they made the figures 5mm taller and released them again.
In all seriousness though, from a marketing standpoint GW generally pursues three market segments: Nostalgia-driven collectors, builder-painters who just like glorious, highly detailed, intricate hobby projects, and younger entry-level audiences who do not have existing collections.
In my experience, you'll generally be quite a bit happier in your hobby if you determine which of those two categories you belong to, and given that this is a creaking, ancient message board that gets most of its web traffic from the retirement homes of the world and not 40k Tik Tok, I'm assuming you probably fall into the former category.
Nostalgia/collector targeted releases tend to be the most faithfully preserved, tend to only add new things to the game if they were existing options 'back in the day' or just minor little weapon additions, and tend to be closer to the old 'build however you like' style of kit. You tend to only have to buy one unit at a time, but they tend to be more expensive per model.
Builder-painter kits are designed to be like diorama models, generally are monopose, highly detailed, fragile kits. GW tends to throw 1-2 into each release, but occasionally (like with the recent Ork buggy release) if they know a large amount of the market segment for a faction is dedicated painter/modelers they really go whole hog.
Entry-level audience releases generally are intended as an introduction for a new player to get them up and running with a few large purchases. If you know which factions are packed into this edition's starter box, you know they're going to be paired with a few releases marketed as "Easy-To-Build" (meaning they use a peg joint construction meaning they don't require glue necessarily, and they have a cheaper price point than equivalently-sized kits) and generally they'll have several big army bundles where you buy 300-500 pts at a time for 150-200 bucks.
These are all general rules, obviously, and there is overlap, but it seems to be a consistent problem that dedicated consumers/fans have that they don't understand and become extremely enraged when the same large conglomerate company pursues different market segments despite being the same company ("b-but disney, why do you put out the thing I, a thirty-five year old like, when you also put out this thing that seems to be for a younger audience that CHANGES the thing from when I was a kid????!?!?!?!?!!!!!")
Obviously, not everything is 100% subdivided to where it's ONLY intended for one segment or another, but GW obviously does their analytics and has figured out "hmm, we seem to have a class of consumer that always buys the big expensive centerpiece thing out of every release and doesn't seem to have Faction Loyalty, we should make sure every release has something for that consumer. Also, it seems like new consumers tend to enter the hobby via the starter box factions, so we should make sure they have some cheap follow-up purchases in the form of supporting units and further discount bundle boxes to buy. Also it seems like newer consumers don't like making many big choices when it comes to gluing their dudes together, so we should make sure those entry factions don't have tons of crazy weapon options to deal with." It's the basic Magic Cards Timmy and Jimmy and Spike thing or whatever they're called.
A couple armies I would suggest you look into if you think you might be more of a nostalgia-driven collector and you don't just want to play with your old stuff:
-The new sisters of battle release. Generally split between 'figure artist' targeted pieces like Saint Celestine, Triumph of St Katherine, the Exorcist, and 'nostalgia-collector' boxes with tons of options like the Retributors and Battle Sisters kits.
-The new black legion chaos space marine release. Had a split between a couple 'get started' sets and the multipart kits being more towards people looking to refresh their aged CSM collection
-The Genestealer Cults army. Basically the ultimate collector army IMO - everything's incredibly multi-part, wonderfully kitbashable, tons of weapon options, tons of figure variety, but hoo boy do you need a disposable income for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/24 13:37:12
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Either way it's demonstrably false since the classic marines were GWs top selling range for two decades. Besides. . . Primaris are basically just doubling down on all the power fantasy.
Nice double standards there, but not exactly surprising. gak on people who don't blindly hate primarines, that's fine, but do the same in the other direction and it's BAD MEAN WORDS THAT HURT.
But hey, at least the death threat by Jeffrey (who took the friendly banter between me and Scotsman too personally) got removed too, so it's all fair now.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/12/24 14:10:05
r_squared wrote: Thought it was pretty funny myself, what a lovely welcome back to the hobby.
Well, you're welcome. I will freely admit I may be a little overly fond of triggering the small contingent of folks whose attitude seems to boil down to claiming that others aren't 'man enough' to repurchase their entire 500$ plastic spaceman army because they made the figures 5mm taller and released them again.
In all seriousness though, from a marketing standpoint GW generally pursues three market segments: Nostalgia-driven collectors, builder-painters who just like glorious, highly detailed, intricate hobby projects, and younger entry-level audiences who do not have existing collections.
In my experience, you'll generally be quite a bit happier in your hobby if you determine which of those two categories you belong to, and given that this is a creaking, ancient message board that gets most of its web traffic from the retirement homes of the world and not 40k Tik Tok, I'm assuming you probably fall into the former category.
Nostalgia/collector targeted releases tend to be the most faithfully preserved, tend to only add new things to the game if they were existing options 'back in the day' or just minor little weapon additions, and tend to be closer to the old 'build however you like' style of kit. You tend to only have to buy one unit at a time, but they tend to be more expensive per model.
Builder-painter kits are designed to be like diorama models, generally are monopose, highly detailed, fragile kits. GW tends to throw 1-2 into each release, but occasionally (like with the recent Ork buggy release) if they know a large amount of the market segment for a faction is dedicated painter/modelers they really go whole hog.
Entry-level audience releases generally are intended as an introduction for a new player to get them up and running with a few large purchases. If you know which factions are packed into this edition's starter box, you know they're going to be paired with a few releases marketed as "Easy-To-Build" (meaning they use a peg joint construction meaning they don't require glue necessarily, and they have a cheaper price point than equivalently-sized kits) and generally they'll have several big army bundles where you buy 300-500 pts at a time for 150-200 bucks.
These are all general rules, obviously, and there is overlap, but it seems to be a consistent problem that dedicated consumers/fans have that they don't understand and become extremely enraged when the same large conglomerate company pursues different market segments despite being the same company ("b-but disney, why do you put out the thing I, a thirty-five year old like, when you also put out this thing that seems to be for a younger audience that CHANGES the thing from when I was a kid????!?!?!?!?!!!!!")
Obviously, not everything is 100% subdivided to where it's ONLY intended for one segment or another, but GW obviously does their analytics and has figured out "hmm, we seem to have a class of consumer that always buys the big expensive centerpiece thing out of every release and doesn't seem to have Faction Loyalty, we should make sure every release has something for that consumer. Also, it seems like new consumers tend to enter the hobby via the starter box factions, so we should make sure they have some cheap follow-up purchases in the form of supporting units and further discount bundle boxes to buy. Also it seems like newer consumers don't like making many big choices when it comes to gluing their dudes together, so we should make sure those entry factions don't have tons of crazy weapon options to deal with." It's the basic Magic Cards Timmy and Jimmy and Spike thing or whatever they're called.
A couple armies I would suggest you look into if you think you might be more of a nostalgia-driven collector and you don't just want to play with your old stuff:
-The new sisters of battle release. Generally split between 'figure artist' targeted pieces like Saint Celestine, Triumph of St Katherine, the Exorcist, and 'nostalgia-collector' boxes with tons of options like the Retributors and Battle Sisters kits.
-The new black legion chaos space marine release. Had a split between a couple 'get started' sets and the multipart kits being more towards people looking to refresh their aged CSM collection
-The Genestealer Cults army. Basically the ultimate collector army IMO - everything's incredibly multi-part, wonderfully kitbashable, tons of weapon options, tons of figure variety, but hoo boy do you need a disposable income for it.
I took your original post to be more tongue-in-cheek than scathing criticism of Primaris. I personally would have gone more with a 1990's Generation2 XTREME vibe, but your's was silly enough. I mean I think I know your stance on Primaris from previous posts, but new/returning Dakkanaut isn't likely to. So, no harm, no foul. I suppose I should buy a Firstborn army so I can get that repurchasing feeling you're talking about though.
It's already been, what?, three years since the Primaris came out with numerous ETB and other boxed sets. There already is a developed second hand market for Primaris. I would argue the reason why it seems so light is the fact that with Indomitus, the pandemic and lower production of models the Primaris space marines are very popular being bought up constantly. They are still plastic and space marines, so a plethora of bits still work quite well with them. All (even traitor ones, well maybe not Death Guard) space marines are easy to build/modify (which is still very true with Primaris) and easy to learn how to play the game. It also doesn't hurt that space marines are one of the cheapest armies to pick up via ppm and an overabundance of cheap (grading on the GW curve) model sets.
I can't really comment on thinking about what kind of interests one should think about as you describe. Well, beyond that my first army was Black Legion and I also have a Genestealer Cult army but certainly don't have any nostalgia for 40k. Given my introduction 10 years left me cold, and I didn't actually start collecting models until the latter part of 7th edition. I just like the models for those ranges.
Same goes for Primaris. I wasn't a fan of them until Shadowspear. But Primaris space marines look so very nice to me. And they are apex of detail for painting: not nearly as simple as Necrons or some Tyranids, but not nearly complicated as Admech or Orks. Besides, it's kinda nice not having the paint metallic trim on power armor every now again. I leaned into the tacticool, G.I. Joe (the early years stuff) for my Primaris army. I like how it looks in olive drab, though sometimes; I do think I would have preferred going full Blood Angels red with them since mine don't look all that 40k (read: endearingly stupid). At least I like Reivers to keep that 40k vibe going in my Primaris army. Without it, I think they too serious for 40k.
***
To the OP who I am going to assume is reasonable and thus has decided to probably take another long break from DakkaDakka after reading some of this thread,
Firstborn (read: your older marines) are fine. In a lot of ways they are much better to get up to speed leaning how 40k plays nowadays. They aren't so different from Primaris via stat blocks now. They offer some flexibility in loadout and are far less concerned about using stratagems. In general, basic sense you can also field more bodies that with Primaris marines which also gives yourself a little more breathing room to work with. Ultimately, I think pound-for-pound the Firstborn attack potential isn't as high as Primaris, but still pretty darn close (again grading on the GW curve).
I would definitely just field what you have to re-familarize yourself with 40k before considering adding Primaris. As mentioned, I would use caution in picking up more non-Primaris space marine units if you only want them for gaming purposes. While nothing official has been stated about the older line being discontinued, GW has demonstrated they aren't above doing so with the number of factions in Age of Sigmar that have been sunsetted. Granted, this can create a self-fulfilling prophecy, but with every new Primaris wave it's easier to see that Firstborn may go to Legends someday.
FWIW *As models* Primaris have grown on me massively. I think they look much better than the old Marines. There are exceptions like Reivers and the original Repulsor (for some reason the Executioner doesn't bother me as much), but everything else is a hit.
I think the names are stupid, as is having 20+ versions of "bolt gun" that each do something slightly different, but that's another issue.
Tyel wrote: FWIW *As models* Primaris have grown on me massively. I think they look much better than the old Marines. There are exceptions like Reivers and the original Repulsor (for some reason the Executioner doesn't bother me as much), but everything else is a hit.
I think the names are stupid, as is having 20+ versions of "bolt gun" that each do something slightly different, but that's another issue.
It's the turret I think. The Executioner has a turret that looks the right size for it's hull as an MBT, the Repulsor's turret is more properly scaled for an APC and it looks off.
Either way it's demonstrably false since the classic marines were GWs top selling range for two decades. Besides. . . Primaris are basically just doubling down on all the power fantasy.
Nice double standards there, but not exactly surprising. gak on people who don't blindly hate primarines, that's fine, but do the same in the other direction and it's BAD MEAN WORDS THAT HURT.
But hey, at least the death threat by Jeffrey (who took the friendly banter between me and Scotsman too personally) got removed too, so it's all fair now.
If you can't figure out the reason your post got removed and the_scotsmans didn't, that's squarely on you at this point.
Also, your post didn't even make sense within it's own logic. Primaris really ARE blatantly doubling down on the power fantasy.
Insectum7 wrote: Primaris really ARE blatantly doubling down on the power fantasy.
Considering miniMarines have double wounds now, I guess *all* Space Marines fit that now?
Again, complaining about "they're making the power fantasy stronger" might have worked if Space Marines had always been what they were from the start, but that's not the case. They've gradually developed and evolved over time. Things like "canon" height or suchlike have changed, to the point where Space Marines can broadly be what you prefer.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Insectum7 wrote: Primaris really ARE blatantly doubling down on the power fantasy.
Considering miniMarines have double wounds now, I guess *all* Space Marines fit that now?
Again, complaining about "they're making the power fantasy stronger" might have worked if Space Marines had always been what they were from the start, but that's not the case. They've gradually developed and evolved over time. Things like "canon" height or suchlike have changed, to the point where Space Marines can broadly be what you prefer.
Still like the old stuff? Cool, play with that!
Are Primaris not billed as bigger, stronger, tougher, bigger guns, etc. ? Maybe your books are different than mine.
