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meh, it would have fit in with indy's attitude towards women seen in the movie that shall not be named.
He kidnaps willie at knifepoint, threatens her life, drags her thru hell, helps put her in the sacrificial cage then he saves her, after being responsible for her being in that terrifying situation in the first place and at the end uses his whip in her to drag her back to him for his kiss?
She should have kneed him so hard his 'nads flew out his ears and then asked a british officer for help getting to the american embassy. I'm sure a proper elgniosh gentleman would have seen her on her way to the embassy.
As to Tarkin, yeah, that makes sense.
I kind of wish they'd done a scene in star wars featuring tarky in the deathstar after the torpedoes had been launched and having just enough time to hear they were heading for the reactor and there was nothing he could do, maybe madly rushing towards an escape pod just as it blew.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/09 07:21:55
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
I watched the Legal Eagle episode about Indiana Jones the other day and apparently it’s even in the script that Marion was 15. Indy would have been around 20? Now I have to say, my interpretation of the dialogue is more that Marion had a huge crush on Indy and he allowed that to become a relationship, rather than him actively seducing her. Still absolutely wrong and abuse of a position of trust, but marginally less sleazy and definitely a whole lot less predatory.
The ToD thing with Willie is sadly just standard-issue action movie stuff, which happens right through even into the 90’s (at least) so I don’t think that is intended as a deliberate statement about the character; it’s just the default, very problematic, “the girl is your prize Hero” thing that everyone just accepted/expected.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
My dad is measuring his life expectancy with a stopwatch, so I've been trying to spend more time with him, which includes watching a lot of old John Wayne movies. Man, there are movies that just can't be made today.
Near the end of McClintock, a man kicks in the hotel room door of his estranged, soon to be ex wife, threatens her, scares her enough to fall off a balcony, then chases after her through the town while she's just wearing only underwear until he catches her, and then publicly spanks her in front of cheering townspeople. And yes, this wins her back.
Indy gets the treasure, having lost two assistants of dubious moral virtue. Flees to the sea plane.
The two seater sea plane.
Sorry, just started to read this interesting thread. While very hard to defend the plot holes in my favorite movie of all time, I totally agree with Easy E - Indy's guides were local and they never had any plans to leave the jungle with him.
Being a big fan of BBT, I found this hilarious, but it still did not tarnish my favorite movie!
OK, here are my nitpicks:
Might have been the first Fast & Furious where a car ignites and Vin yells, "NOS!!" and they all jump to cover so they car can explode in glorious, fashionable flames. NOS is not flammable, while the container is pressurized, it would still not explode in flames like that if heated. I am not sure of the exact science, but I believe NOS simply allows the fuel-filled air to incredibly condense to enrich the turbo charged air already being super compacted and forced into the combustion chamber. Kind of like a cold-air intake will allow your car to accelerate faster as cold air is more dense, so carries more fuel with it.
Nearly every single Hollywood military explosion where you see an enormous ball of flame from C4 or a grenade. These are concussive explosions providing maximum expansion blasts to cause damage - there is no 'fuel' to cause flames.
I guess everyone just needs to see balls of flame to know an explosion has occurred.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/02/09 14:54:30
My favorite explosives nitpick is from Tristan and Isolde, and very generic love story set in vaguely dark ages Britain. The ending climatic battle has explosive barrels of... Stuff, just positioned around the village. No rhyme or reason, the director apparently just wanted explosions for the swords and arrows battle.
It is, iirc, never explained or rationalized. Just multiple fiery balls.
Indy gets the treasure, having lost two assistants of dubious moral virtue. Flees to the sea plane.
The two seater sea plane.
Sorry, just started to read this interesting thread. While very hard to defend the plot holes in my favorite movie of all time, I totally agree with Easy E - Indy's guides were local and they never had any plans to leave the jungle with him.
Being a big fan of BBT, I found this hilarious, but it still did not tarnish my favorite movie!
OK, here are my nitpicks:
Might have been the first Fast & Furious where a car ignites and Vin yells, "NOS!!" and they all jump to cover so they car can explode in glorious, fashionable flames. NOS is not flammable, while the container is pressurized, it would still not explode in flames like that if heated. I am not sure of the exact science, but I believe NOS simply allows the fuel-filled air to incredibly condense to enrich the turbo charged air already being super compacted and forced into the combustion chamber. Kind of like a cold-air intake will allow your car to accelerate faster as cold air is more dense, so carries more fuel with it.
Nearly every single Hollywood military explosion where you see an enormous ball of flame from C4 or a grenade. These are concussive explosions providing maximum expansion blasts to cause damage - there is no 'fuel' to cause flames.
I guess everyone just needs to see balls of flame to know an explosion has occurred.
I have a nitpick on that Big Bang nitpick; the only reason that the Nazis know where Marion is, is because they follow Indy (the Gestapo agent is watching him on the aircraft).
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Matt Swain wrote: Still it seems odd they couldn't put a shield over their generators that would block the shots from that walker.
Well, we know the Gungans/Naboo have that sort of technology. Now whether the Rebellion had access to it, that's a different question entirely. It may well be the opportunity to acquire that sort of 'mid-range' shield - smaller than a planetary defense shield, larger than the shield of a starfighter or vehicle - never came up, and they sure weren't going to strip the shield generator out of a starship for it. By the time the Empire reached and destroyed the power plant, they were already overrunning the base anyway.
Maybe i should quit picking on star wars, but i just can't help thinking it odd that the original death star had within its gigantic bulk just enough TIE fighters to more or less evenly engage the 30 or so rebel fighters launched from Yavin 4. As it seemed to be at the end there didn't appear to be any TIEs left, vaders advanced prototype was knocked off into space and away from the DS and like 3-4 rebel ships managed to get back to Yavin, implying the DS had just enough fighters in it's massive volume to engage about 30 enemy fighters.
Yeah, the Empire was being unusually sporting there. Various sources say that the Death Star had several thousand squadrons of TIE fighters. They could have launched ALL of them, and just buried the Rebel force. Apparently Tarkin really was that confident that there was nothing the Rebellion could do to stop him.
Maybe Solo picked off some on his way to help luke. There seemed to be none left around the DS or pursuing the withdrawing rebel forces.
It's possible, maybe even likely, that Han did pick off a few. The rest died in the explosion they didn't know was coming, I guess? No idea why they didn't try to pursue those last three survivors plus Han.
I know i know, plot. Just like how solo could have vaped vader but instead shot his wingman even tho vader was the only one firing on luke. Looking at it tactically i'm surprised solo didn't target vader, especially as from above his fighter likely had a larger target aspect. But vader had his plot armor, or maybe this was an early draft of the 'look out sir!" rule...
Remember the angles. Han wasn't coming in from directly overhead. He was coming in from the viewer's right, Vader's left. The TIE on the right was slightly higher and therefore much more exposed than the other two. Han took the shot, hoping... well, ideally, for the results he mostly got.
Maybe i should quit picking on star wars, but i just can't help thinking it odd that the original death star had within its gigantic bulk just enough TIE fighters to more or less evenly engage the 30 or so rebel fighters launched from Yavin 4. As it seemed to be at the end there didn't appear to be any TIEs left, vaders advanced prototype was knocked off into space and away from the DS and like 3-4 rebel ships managed to get back to Yavin, implying the DS had just enough fighters in it's massive volume to engage about 30 enemy fighters.
I always assumed that it was a fleet scale battle and the action only followed one or two flights. Alternatively the Death Star is more battleship that carrier and has a negligible fighter complement purely for shuttle escort.
Matt Swain wrote: Still it seems odd they couldn't put a shield over their generators that would block the shots from that walker.
Well, we know the Gungans/Naboo have that sort of technology. Now whether the Rebellion had access to it, that's a different question entirely. It may well be the opportunity to acquire that sort of 'mid-range' shield - smaller than a planetary defense shield, larger than the shield of a starfighter or vehicle - never came up, and they sure weren't going to strip the shield generator out of a starship for it. By the time the Empire reached and destroyed the power plant, they were already overrunning the base anyway.
If I recall, the Gungan shield allowed anything in ground contact to pass through it. Presumably, the AT-ATs could have walked through a mid range Naboo type shield before reaching the planetary shield generator and a KOTOR style personal shield for the generator was useless against vehicle class weapons so was never fitted.
Maybe i should quit picking on star wars, but i just can't help thinking it odd that the original death star had within its gigantic bulk just enough TIE fighters to more or less evenly engage the 30 or so rebel fighters launched from Yavin 4. As it seemed to be at the end there didn't appear to be any TIEs left, vaders advanced prototype was knocked off into space and away from the DS and like 3-4 rebel ships managed to get back to Yavin, implying the DS had just enough fighters in it's massive volume to engage about 30 enemy fighters.
I always assumed that it was a fleet scale battle and the action only followed one or two flights.
Definitely wasn't. For whatever reason* the Death Star was wandering around without escort ships, and the Rebels launched everything they had (and given it was 'do or be obliterated,' there isn't any point in reserves). That they only had 20 or so fighters was completely reasonable for what we knew at the time- a galaxy wide rebellion would operate in cells by necessity. (Obliterating Yavin 4 is way past overkill)
*available models, filming, budget, and of course, setting things up so the plot could happen. Plus Tarkin was more than a bit of a bonehead in his arrogance.
Alternatively the Death Star is more battleship that carrier and has a negligible fighter complement purely for shuttle escort.
Not unreasonable for what's shown in the film, but the endless array of 'technical supplements' sold to fans suggest that isn't the case. And reasonable military strategy would dictate a big fighter presence for a 'station' that size, even if the builders and brass are convinced of its 'invincibility.'
I think even just going by what is portrayed in the film, it's pretty much all entirely on Tarkin.
Vader is displayed as being of a similar authority (if not slightly lower) than Tarkin in the film and is shown, I think multiple times, instructing Tarkin to launch fighters, he then outright refuses, multiple times.
Eventually Vader basically says screw it, storms off and grabs a handful of pilots that will actually listen to him. It's then only those fighters that launch.
Might have been the first Fast & Furious where a car ignites and Vin yells, "NOS!!" and they all jump to cover so they car can explode in glorious, fashionable flames. NOS is not flammable, while the container is pressurized, it would still not explode in flames like that if heated. I am not sure of the exact science, but I believe NOS simply allows the fuel-filled air to incredibly condense to enrich the turbo charged air already being super compacted and forced into the combustion chamber. Kind of like a cold-air intake will allow your car to accelerate faster as cold air is more dense, so carries more fuel with it.
While obviously not Hollywood style explosions NOS canniserters can explode quite dramatically. Generally caused by leaving the cannister heater running and leading to uncontrolled decompression it has destroyed quite a few cara and even some garages.
Maybe i should quit picking on star wars, but i just can't help thinking it odd that the original death star had within its gigantic bulk just enough TIE fighters to more or less evenly engage the 30 or so rebel fighters launched from Yavin 4. As it seemed to be at the end there didn't appear to be any TIEs left, vaders advanced prototype was knocked off into space and away from the DS and like 3-4 rebel ships managed to get back to Yavin, implying the DS had just enough fighters in it's massive volume to engage about 30 enemy fighters.
I always assumed that it was a fleet scale battle and the action only followed one or two flights.
Definitely wasn't. For whatever reason* the Death Star was wandering around without escort ships, and the Rebels launched everything they had (and given it was 'do or be obliterated,' there isn't any point in reserves). That they only had 20 or so fighters was completely reasonable for what we knew at the time- a galaxy wide rebellion would operate in cells by necessity. (Obliterating Yavin 4 is way past overkill)
*available models, filming, budget, and of course, setting things up so the plot could happen. Plus Tarkin was more than a bit of a bonehead in his arrogance.
Alternatively the Death Star is more battleship that carrier and has a negligible fighter complement purely for shuttle escort.
Not unreasonable for what's shown in the film, but the endless array of 'technical supplements' sold to fans suggest that isn't the case. And reasonable military strategy would dictate a big fighter presence for a 'station' that size, even if the builders and brass are convinced of its 'invincibility.'
There’s also the concept of too many fighters. All the time you’re worrying about where your mates are, and whether they might fly into your kill box, the enemy has some kind of advantage.
It’s also worth remembering that the Rebel’s plan only came to light relatively late in the day. And even then, it was described as a small chance of success.
Tarkin, in his assured arrogance was likely gambling on ‘take out the planet, their morale will flag, and then they’re toast”.
This is where Rogue One really comes into its own, as we find out the flaw was very much deliberate, and small enough not to be noticed unless you really knew what you’re looking for.
One can easily imagine those monitoring the Rebel attack narrowing it down as they closed in on their target. Sure, it was likely they had a target of some kind in mind (otherwise it would be an entirely futile and suicidal attack), but the Death Star is vast. The closer they get, the more the potential targets are whittled down. Closer and closer, fewer and fewer possible targets. Eventually, someone realises “oh my....that’d actually work. EVERYONE PANIC”.
It’s arguable the Rebels only found the flaw because they’d been told there was one, and it was small. Memory fails if Jyn or Galen gave specifics (such as, whatever it is could lead to a chain reaction). If they did, it’s even easier to find because you work out from the end result, looking at ways it could be triggered.
Lack of escort fleet? Well....you don’t need one, in theory. Without the flaws exploited to take out both Death Stars, how do you take one down? It’s specifically described as being armoured. And we’ve seen it’s covered in Turbolasers. And when the main cannon can blat fully shielded Capital Ships, there’s little the foe can do. You could even argue that when taking out a planet, an escort fleet risks losses from the resultant explosion, as massive chunks of debris are slung out. We see relatively slowly moving asteroids take out a Star Destroyer Bridge in ESB, so it’d a risk to men and materials you don’t really need to take.
This was the genius of Galen Erso’s overall plan. He knew the defences inside and out. So he knew it wasn’t arranged to take out fighters. From there, it’s a matter of finding ways for such a small craft to do the damage needed. Again, the main reactor remains a point of vulnerability, a universal truth of Star Wars warfare. All becomes relatively straight forward from there with his level of access.
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One thing that Rogue One also adds (though its mentioned in the opening crawl) was that there IS a Rebel fleet but hours/days ago they were just involved in a massive engagement and the survivors have scattered off refuelling or rearming, with the only fighters Yavin could personally support left there
I have a nitpick on that Big Bang nitpick; the only reason that the Nazis know where Marion is, is because they follow Indy (the Gestapo agent is watching him on the aircraft).
Might have been the first Fast & Furious where a car ignites and Vin yells, "NOS!!" and they all jump to cover so they car can explode in glorious, fashionable flames. NOS is not flammable, while the container is pressurized, it would still not explode in flames like that if heated. I am not sure of the exact science, but I believe NOS simply allows the fuel-filled air to incredibly condense to enrich the turbo charged air already being super compacted and forced into the combustion chamber. Kind of like a cold-air intake will allow your car to accelerate faster as cold air is more dense, so carries more fuel with it.
While obviously not Hollywood style explosions NOS canniserters can explode quite dramatically. Generally caused by leaving the cannister heater running and leading to uncontrolled decompression it has destroyed quite a few cara and even some garages.
That is not the gas exploding, just the canister pressure, and an internal explosion in the car is due to the compressed air/fuel being shoved into the combustion chamber. Could the popping canister make the gas tank explode/ maybe, but not likely at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/10 15:09:40
Compel wrote: I think even just going by what is portrayed in the film, it's pretty much all entirely on Tarkin.
Vader is displayed as being of a similar authority (if not slightly lower) than Tarkin in the film and is shown, I think multiple times, instructing Tarkin to launch fighters, he then outright refuses, multiple times.
Eventually Vader basically says screw it, storms off and grabs a handful of pilots that will actually listen to him. It's then only those fighters that launch.
Almost.
The X-Wings arrive first, and start going after the 'point-defense' weapons (that were scaled for attack by something more like a Corvette than snub fighters). They weave around doing that for a bit while the Turbo-lasers are generally ineffective. so a limited launch of fighters is ordered. The TIEs and X-Wings dogfight while the Y-Wings come in. it's at this point that Vader grabs Tag and Bink (if you read that comic) to accompany him while he deals with 'a small group of fighters that has broken off from the main force'. Note that Tarkin is not shown approving this, but neither is he ever shown denying permission to launch more fighters.
It's also worth nothing that if the Death Star launched ALL of the fighters various sources said it had against the Rebels, they'd still have to hold most of them back. Two or three times the number of Rebels is probably the most TIEs that could engage without being continuously in each other's way. Having ALL of them in that limited area where the Rebels were operating would lead to massive fratricide from missed shots and lots of collisions. In the meantime the Rebels could basically just do donuts firing as fast as they could and they'd rack up massive kill numbers.
However, given what we saw, the Empire really should have had the fighters NOT involved in the melee either nearby to reinforce it, or out as BARCAP to keep, say, a random light freighter from showing up and adding fire support at a crucial moment...
Yeah, Tarkin really dropped the ball there, almost as badly as General Hux did forty years and three movies later.
Wasn't the Death Star supposed to be super-duper secret? Having an escort fleet with it would have hindered that. For starters, every added person that knows about the Death Star is another guy that might slip up and talk about it. Second, it's known that smugglers keep regular tabs on Star Destroyers and share/sell that info to other smugglers and the Rebels. If all the sudden a whole lot of Capital ships are no longer patrolling their known paths, or are seen going to a random off-limits sector it very well might get people wondering what they are doing there.
Ok, getting back on star wars where was the death star's engine? EVERY other ship on SW had discernible engines, even the tiny red lights on TIE fighters. But the death star has no engines at all.
I suppose hardcore SW fans will say it somehow used the gravity produced by its mass to propel itself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/11 02:36:14
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
Matt Swain wrote: Ok, getting back on star wars where was the death star's engine?
Everywhere, or along the equator. Apparently a it is great many tiny red dots, like on TIE fighters, inconspicuous at the scale of the station.
https://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/death-star.htm#pt6 wrote:The Death Star's real-space propulsion system is made up of a network of ion engines that use converters to transform reactor power into thrust. The engine thrusters are primarily lined along the equator of the station.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Death_Star/Legends wrote:Facilitating the Death Star's realspace propulsion was a network of powerful ion engines that transformed reactor power into needed thrust. In order for the Death Star to be a deadly threat, it needed to be mobile. Using linked banks of 123 hyperdrive field generators tied into a single navigational matrix, the Death Star could travel across the galaxy at superluminal velocities. The incredible energies harnessed by the station combined with its great mass gave the Death Star magnetic and artificial gravitational fields equal to those found on orbital bodies many times greater in size.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/propulsion.html wrote:The sublight drives of the Death Stars were not conspicuous when the battle stations were viewed from afar. Various sources claim that the sublight engines were housed around the equatorial waistband, but the actual nozzles were too small to be seen from more than a few kilometres away. The Mandel blueprints indicate that there are 68 "antimatter engines", which presumably are the sublight drives.
I suppose that’s another argument against an escort fleet; the backwash from that thing jumping into hyperspace would probably tear any nearby ship to pieces!
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
cuda1179 wrote: Wasn't the Death Star supposed to be super-duper secret? Having an escort fleet with it would have hindered that. For starters, every added person that knows about the Death Star is another guy that might slip up and talk about it. Second, it's known that smugglers keep regular tabs on Star Destroyers and share/sell that info to other smugglers and the Rebels. If all the sudden a whole lot of Capital ships are no longer patrolling their known paths, or are seen going to a random off-limits sector it very well might get people wondering what they are doing there.
Well, yeah, but then in Rogue One we see several Imperial Star Destroyers hanging around the Death Star.
You know, the ships with a total crew and troop complement of over 37,000... each?
So. Where did THEY go? They clearly knew about the Death Star already. The assumption is that Tarkin didn't want to 'risk' having the unveiling of his wonder-weapon marred by the loss of a 'vulnerable' Star Destroyer. Given what happened at Scarif that's not a totally baseless concern. Had the lore been there, a couple of Carracks patrolling the perimeter would have done wonders for the security of the Death Star, and gone through the Rebel fighters like a scythe through grass.
But had Tarkin been smart, Star Wars ends with an Imperial victory and we probably don't get ANY of the material that followed. A case of the Idiot Ball serving a useful narrative function, I suppose.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jadenim wrote: I suppose that’s another argument against an escort fleet; the backwash from that thing jumping into hyperspace would probably tear any nearby ship to pieces!
That's why the escort fleet jumps a second or two earlier.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/11 16:13:56
I have a vague memory of seeing some plans for various floors of the Death Star wwaayy back -- West End Games d6 era time -- which seemingly implied there were no lavatories on the station whatsoever.
I know there were similar issues with the M. Falcon at one point too but this I believe was later solved in a technical manual/similar.
Look how big these gates are --- almost like they were designed to let large creatures out through them.....
That wood does not look that strong either does it eh !
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
Another star wars issue: if leia knew the falcon had a tracker onboard why did she go straight back to the rebel base on yavin? Why not tell solo to go somewhere else and then get a different ship to go to yavin?
"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..."
Matt Swain wrote: Another star wars issue: if leia knew the falcon had a tracker onboard why did she go straight back to the rebel base on yavin? Why not tell solo to go somewhere else and then get a different ship to go to yavin?
Did she have anywhere else to go where Solo would get paid? Alternatively, if she new of the Death Star's weakness, luring it towards a fighter presence would make sense .The later "we have analyzed the DS plans" scene would then refer to "the vulnerability is written down in the comments and we checked the math on it, it should work."
Otherwise, you have to find the bloody thing and distract it with sacrificial capitol ships else the fighters will get TIE spammed for lack of anything lese to focus on. In the Battle of Yavin, the fighters were seen as a desperation measure, thus largely ignored, and Tarkin refused to evacuate when the moment of glory or victory. That cannot happen without a juicy target like rebel base acting as bait.
Frodo was wearing his Elvish mithril armor when he and Sam were walking through the Giant Spider's lair. He then got stung in the belly. Shouldn't the mithril have stopped that sting?
Frodo was wearing his Elvish mithril armor when he and Sam were walking through the Giant Spider's lair. He then got stung in the belly. Shouldn't the mithril have stopped that sting?
In theory, yes.
The protection of mithril mail is very... iffy. Sure, a light shirt stops cuts, but mail is pretty awful at stopping the concussive force of a blow. Really, Frodo should have severe internal bleeding after the cave troll smushes him up against the wall, but he gets away with just having the breath knocked out of him.
And it's worth noting that Shelob is a first-generation descendant of Ungoliant, effectively a godling or demi-god.
Given the way that scene is framed, it seems likely to me that they originally intended it to be a (book accurate) stab to the neck, but changed it in the effects shot.
Maybe she just hit him a little lower, around the belly or groin?
I believe it’s a Terry Prachett quote “to an arrow, chain mail is just a loosely arranged collection of holes”. Now I don’t think that’s entirely accurate, but there is definitely an element that something with a point is going to have a much better chance at penetrating compared to a blade edge. I suppose a stinger is also going to be more effective, as it doesn’t need to penetrate to a lethal depth, it just needs to break the skin.
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Jadenim wrote: I believe it’s a Terry Prachett quote “to an arrow, chain mail is just a loosely arranged collection of holes”. Now I don’t think that’s entirely accurate, but there is definitely an element that something with a point is going to have a much better chance at penetrating compared to a blade edge. I suppose a stinger is also going to be more effective, as it doesn’t need to penetrate to a lethal depth, it just needs to break the skin.
Yeah, David Eddings does that with rapiers in the Elenium/Tamuli, to the point of absurdity. The characters act like mail is no defense at all, and the rings are (apparently) huge, or that rapiers are teeny-tiny (when neither is true).
For this particularly LotR example, though, book-wise I was always under the impression that she got him in the neck or arm.
