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Inspired by the upcoming Death Guard codex but applicable to the other three, this is referring to the bonuses received by an army if the whole army shares a certain faction (doctrines being the most notable example).

Obviously in an ideal world there would be X bonus for an army composed of only Nurgle units, and X+Y bonuses if it was also only composed of Death Guard or X+Z bonuses if it was only composed of DoN. But if you had to choose between army-wide bonuses being based on the God (for example; mix & match any Nurgle units in the same army and only lose the benefit if you add other gods or undivided) or being based on the Legion (for example; the whole army must be Death Guard and adding anything else including DoN forfeits the benefit) which would you pick for 40k to go with?

Edit: In either case the assumption is that other legions will get whatever army bonus is in 9th ed Codex: CSM while (mixed) Daemons will get whatever is in 9th ed Codex: Chaos Daemons.

I voted God oriented, since it wouldn't penalize the Legions(they get to bring their own special units). While also not penalizing other traitors(allowing them to declare allegiance) & keeping daemons viable on their own..

Death Guard get all their special units/strats/etc along with no penalty to taking daemons.
World Eaters, Emperors Children and Thousand Sons all get same.

Traitors(Red Corsairs, Flawless Host, etc..) all get to choose their god, and then have no penalty for taking the associated daemons(no specific DG, TS, EC, WE units, like currently).

God specific Daemons then get to take all their units while paying cp to take WE, EC, TS, DG to take specialist units.

Not ridiculous, but flavourful.

Given those two choices I'd go with Legion but only because it leaves the Undivided/agnostic Legions in the cold otherwise.

My Ideal scenario would be 4 God books, an Undivided book and then one Other (Chaos Knights, Traitor Guard, Dark Mech etc)

Well the assumption in either case is that other legions will get whatever army bonus is in 9th ed Codex: CSM while (mixed) Daemons will get whatever is in 9th ed Codex: Chaos Daemons.

Neither, I'd rather instead see a mix and match process inspired by the "create a dyntasy" rules for necrons

BrianDavion wrote:
Neither, I'd rather instead see a mix and match process inspired by the "create a dyntasy" rules for necrons

Ok. But assuming that did not happen...

I picked Legion but I think there should be a choice of either. Some armies want to run a mix of units like Word Bearers or Black Legion. They can run Noise Marines and Berzerkers in their list and it is true to lore whereas if you exclusively tied bonus to god choice this would not be possible. If having both as an option is not an option then Legion is the most fair choice with a Legion specific rule that god aligned daemons of that Legion's patron do not take away the bonus and may even gain the Legion abilities if applicable.

Por que no los dos?
...

Oh right, GW.

I voted Legion, because there should be some kind of bonus for going pure Legion. If you want the bonus but still want daemons you summon them. That's how it's always worked, if CSM want daemons they summon them. The daemons of course wouldn't get Contagions or the other mono- Legion abilities, but the Legion units themselves would. I wouldn't mind it either if they would return to cult marines being locked to their respective Legions, Black Legion, and custom warbands of their respective gods, so none for the Undivided Legions. That's how it worked in 3.5 and Traitor Legions, and it was fluffy. You shouldn't be able to get god specific units if you don't worship that god.

I totally get the summoning logic, but then daemons part of the list would be ones summoned in before the match began. After all the average 40k game is really a zooming in on the crux of an important engagement; it isn't like Typhus, twenty dudes and a few tanks were just strolling through a locale with no larger context! But then so much of the game is representative, so again I can respect that logic. And I definitely agree that the likes of Word Bearers or Night Lords shouldn't be running plague marines.

BrianDavion wrote:
Neither, I'd rather instead see a mix and match process inspired by the "create a dyntasy" rules for necrons

Isn't GW already doing this for DG. They are multiple plague companies with different plague combos and rule sets. At least that is what it said about the DG on the new community side

If there is no reward for playing a legion without daemons, you might as well just roll all the daemons into the corresponding codices and have Codex: Daemons disappear, because it serves no purpose anymore.

In my opinion there should be cumulative rewards for:
1a) Playing only one legion
1b) Playing only daemons
2a) Staying true to one god. This bonus should change depending on what god you chose.
2b) Not pledging allegiance to any god (not a single marked unit)
2c) Playing true chaos undivided by actually bringing units from all four gods

 Jidmah wrote:
If there is no reward for playing a legion without daemons, you might as well just roll all the daemons into the corresponding codices and have Codex: Daemons disappear, because it serves no purpose anymore.

In my opinion there should be cumulative rewards for:
1a) Playing only one legion
1b) Playing only daemons
2a) Staying true to one god. This bonus should change depending on what god you chose.
2b) Not pledging allegiance to any god (not a single marked unit)
2c) Playing true chaos undivided by actually bringing units from all four gods

Now this I like. Especially 2b.

I do like the idea of focusing on Legions, rather then a god.

But, I do like how they handled the gods (and followers in AOS), with a book for each god (and all their followers). I could certainly see that working for AOS, with a Four books, covering each of the gods and their followers, and a 5th book covering just undivided mortals (like Iron Warriors and Night Lords).

The Gods books could easily allow you to run a mixed army, or focus just on mortal or demon followers. I'd be 100% on board with that.

 Jidmah wrote:
If there is no reward for playing a legion without daemons, you might as well just roll all the daemons into the corresponding codices and have Codex: Daemons disappear, because it serves no purpose anymore.

In my opinion there should be cumulative rewards for:
1a) Playing only one legion
1b) Playing only daemons
2a) Staying true to one god. This bonus should change depending on what god you chose.
2b) Not pledging allegiance to any god (not a single marked unit)
2c) Playing true chaos undivided by actually bringing units from all four gods

Huh. Given the N&R thread I did not expect we were on the same page. Miscommunication is a hell of a drug, I didn't realize you agreed with me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jaredb wrote:
I do like the idea of focusing on Legions, rather then a god.

But, I do like how they handled the gods (and followers in AOS), with a book for each god (and all their followers). I could certainly see that working for AOS, with a Four books, covering each of the gods and their followers, and a 5th book covering just undivided mortals (like Iron Warriors and Night Lords).

The Gods books could easily allow you to run a mixed army, or focus just on mortal or demon followers. I'd be 100% on board with that.

This is basically the premise; asking people if they like the way 40k does it or the way AoS does it better in concept.

I'd rather they go ahead and roll the god aligned daemons into books alongside the mortal followers of that god, like in AoS. Four marked books and one StD style book for the remnants and unaligned factions (or split the last one up into CSM, LatD, DMech, etc. as needed if GW decides to expand).

I never really liked the idea of running a mixed daemon army, anyway, at least without something "outside" their internecine power struggles to keep them in line (whether that's a mortal sorcerer, an undivided champion like Archaon, or Be'lakor). Having to fit in semi-equivalent options for all four gods made for a book that always felt bloated yet starved for options at the same time, even if you didn't mind the mixing.

Those whole idea of mixed daemons is indirect synergy; they work well together because you can have khorne hammer units, nurgle anvil ones, speedy slaanesh units, and tzeentch for potent psykers. Even though they may not have abilities to buff each other directly they compliment one another in battlefield role. But once allies and later detachment souping became a thing that becomes meaningless. The main advantage daemons got from being their own army became something everyone had access to.

Neither.
The bonus for having a fluffy list should be that you have a fluffy list.
The absolute last thing 40K needs is even more special rules for painting your dudes a particular colour.

I vote Legion under the current system. A codex should be able to stand on it's own 2 feet with soup being an option if you like it. Mono-Dex should not be weaker than soup baseline.
Now if they did something like in AoS or something like Jidmah suggested I'd be fine with that too, in fact I'd prefer that. Frankly I'm still not sure why Deamons needed their own books to begin with, seems more logical to roll them into the aligned CSM legions. That way people like me who like pure human DG are not penalized for liking that but neither are people who like to spice up their list with some Deamon support in it. Both approaches are equally fluffy so punishing one or the other doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I have no idea how they'll make a CSM book work for 9th. What faction wide mechanics can work for 14 subfactions? Many being amongst the most divergent background wise in the game. (Word Bearers - Night Lords)

 Eldarain wrote:
I have no idea how they'll make a CSM book work for 9th. What faction wide mechanics can work for 14 subfactions? Many being amongst the most divergent background wise in the game. (Word Bearers - Night Lords)

Want to bet it's melee buffs?

 Eldarain wrote:
I have no idea how they'll make a CSM book work for 9th. What faction wide mechanics can work for 14 subfactions? Many being amongst the most divergent background wise in the game. (Word Bearers - Night Lords)

Obviously they'll probably give each Legion their own "Super Doctrine", just like Death Guard get Contagions. I'll be shocked if each Undivided Legion doesn't get a supplement just like loyalists, it's just too much $$$ for gw to pass up.

 Eldarain wrote:
I have no idea how they'll make a CSM book work for 9th. What faction wide mechanics can work for 14 subfactions? Many being amongst the most divergent background wise in the game. (Word Bearers - Night Lords)

How do you get to 14 though? Do you count the renegades/smaller sub factions like the Purge too? Assuming EC and/or WE get their own codex too that leaves 5 or 6 proper legions to get their own rules not 14. Maybe the current SM codex could be a guideline and all CSM get generic doctrines plus a specific one per legion. Kinda weird but less akward then writing out full rules for each and every one of them as much as I'd like that.

 Castozor wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
I have no idea how they'll make a CSM book work for 9th. What faction wide mechanics can work for 14 subfactions? Many being amongst the most divergent background wise in the game. (Word Bearers - Night Lords)

How do you get to 14 though? Do you count the renegades/smaller sub factions like the Purge too? Assuming EC and/or WE get their own codex too that leaves 5 or 6 proper legions to get their own rules not 14. Maybe the current SM codex could be a guideline and all CSM get generic doctrines plus a specific one per legion. Kinda weird but less akward then writing out full rules for each and every one of them as much as I'd like that.

7 Legions, 6 Renegades and Bile. I'd expect the CSM book to be before either of the remaining God Aligned First Founding get books so I don't see them leaving them out.

It is possible they drop the additional 6 Renegade rules they added in 8th (while they left the garbage WB trait untouched)

I hope Bile's subfaction is supported as I really like it but it could be dropped too I suppose.

I just find it odd as the faction has had a being pulled in too many different directions problem for years.

Maybe I'm not being imaginative enough and there is a concise logical system that can reasonably represent the way they all fight (with some tweaks per subfaction) but It looks like the fractured design direction will continue to me.

They could potentially go with a set of 3-6 semi-specialized army traits that apply to multiple legions.

An interesting development; mono DG comes with some restrictions on unit selection that a more freeform Nurgle mix does not. I think that does go towards leveling the field, somewhat. Anyone have thoughts?

I would be very surprised if they did that intentionally

You'd also have to mix them in one detachment, which means no stratagems, relics and so on.

Obviously such an army would still run a mono-DG detachment and so gain all the associated stratagems, have the character(s) with relics, etc. It would be a second detachment to do something like poxwalker spam. There is a basic assumption that people aren't intentionally trying to handicap themselves