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Because they spent the last 6 months telling everyone it was fine (first turn advantage) and that they just need to learn2play (see Brandt on these very forums for an example). Or because they came out with new kits with units priced in transparently ridiculous ways (eradicators) and then ignored everyone for 6 months telling them the units were hugely mispointed.

It's Brandt's job now to be a mouthpiece so I just take everything he says with a grain of salt now. He's not going to bite the hand that signs his checks.

At least in terms of this update, I'm prepared to cut some slack for Covid related complications. I mean yeah, we felt pretty early on that Eradicators were an issue, but I wouldn't want GW jumping on a nerf to anything too fast based just off of internet forums. They were probably trying to gather what data they could given the lockdowns and tournament cancellations etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a "hedging our bets" nerf and it gets another 5 tacked on later if they continue to be a issue later on this year.

The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

Also it still stacks w/assassinate. Unless I missed something. I recently got a user's name wrong so it's possible. Please tell me I missed something here ...

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

you need to kill 30% more non-character units to get the same amount of points. It got nerfed. I'm still hoping GW eventually makes all kill-centric secondaries unable to double dip tho.

And you now need to kill 5 characters instead of only 3 to max it out with characters.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tycho wrote:


Also it still stacks w/assassinate. Unless I missed something. I recently got a user's name wrong so it's possible. Please tell me I missed something here ...

don't sweat it with misreading his name, its not like "Cadian" isnt a word that looks a lot like "Canadian" and is strongly tied with 40k, the game we're discussing.

Yes, the real fix for abhor would be to make it not stack with Assassinate, but lowering the pts each unit gives is a much bigger improvement.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think people would prefer you obeyed the forum rules, to avoid getting more threads locked or creating more work for the mods who have to clean up the pointless bickering.

This is place where we discuss the game, not how much we don't like other posters.

I'm not the half dozen people who are dogpiling me nor did I start the debate on my own worthiness to comment on the state of 40k. If others wish to cease attacking me I will cease my counterattack.

Tycho wrote:

Because they spent the last 6 months telling everyone it was fine (first turn advantage) and that they just need to learn2play (see Brandt on these very forums for an example). Or because they came out with new kits with units priced in transparently ridiculous ways (eradicators) and then ignored everyone for 6 months telling them the units were hugely mispointed.

It's Brandt's job now to be a mouthpiece so I just take everything he says with a grain of salt now. He's not going to bite the hand that signs his checks.

At least in terms of this update, I'm prepared to cut some slack for Covid related complications. I mean yeah, we felt pretty early on that Eradicators were an issue, but I wouldn't want GW jumping on a nerf to anything too fast based just off of internet forums. They were probably trying to gather what data they could given the lockdowns and tournament cancellations etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a "hedging our bets" nerf and it gets another 5 tacked on later if they continue to be a issue later on this year.

Well yeah, but that's why communication and honestly is important. If they came out and said that stuff, it wouldn't be an issue. The issue is created by the cowardly PR-based way they avoid admitting that all these changes show that the problems with the game the player base identified were real, not just a learn2play issue.

Say you've spent the last 6 months lobbying your boss to change company policy on X. You present all the data. You send multiple emails. You bring it up in meetings. Over that six months, your boss tells you you're wrong, that you don't have the data she has and don't properly understand the issue, or just says nothing at all. Then suddenly, 6 months later, your boss puts out an email to your team adopting the policy change you advocated for, taking credit for it and painting it as just part of doing business, and with no acknowledgment whatsoever that he had been opposed to it for the last 6 months. You'd be annoyed, wouldn't you?

That's what GW does, every single time. It just feels like they could get a lot of easy goodwill with the community by being more willing to hold up their hands when they mess up and say "yeah, we realize you were saying this all along and yes, you were right. Our bad! We'll try to learn and be better next time!"

Yes, the real fix for abhor would be to make it not stack with Assassinate, but lowering the pts each unit gives is a much bigger improvement.

Yeah, agreed it's definitely an improvement. I'm glad they acknowledged it. I'm still really hoping we end up dumping the kill secondaries in total, but I'll take what I can get!

That's what GW does, every single time. It just feels like they could get a lot of easy goodwill with the community by being more willing to hold up their hands when they mess up and say "yeah, we realize you were saying this all along and yes, you were right. Our bad! We'll try to learn and be better next time!"

That's a fair point. I still think we'd get tired of hearing it though.

Karol wrote:

Wait, is that an actual rule that people who are adults can change rules and those that aren't can not. Because if yes, it is a bit messed up for anyone under 18.

its not a rule, no. Its more that adults in general have more experience and therefore they assume an adult should be able to come up with solutions to the balance problem.

Anyone is allowed to change some rules in 40k.


Removed - Rule #1 please

 bullyboy wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I just want to know who was abusing Outriders to the point where they were on the scale with Eradicators and Inceptors.

Looks like Tau Commanders have been nerfed with a slight points increase, which we can clearly all agree was necessary. There is some compensation in 5 point reductions for crisis suits and a bit more for Broadsides and Hammerheads.

As I see it a tactical drone squad costs 20 points a model, even though the drones themselves are unchanged. Which feels like a (???).

Commander's haven't changed they have been at those increased points along with the rest of the army since the change to 9th.
Glad to see they are finally undoing the neef to crisis suits finally.

No, they went up compared to ministorum manual.

What is confusing to me is the new format and how drones work. Drones as a unit are 20 points each, no differentiation as to which kind. But drones taken as upgrades in units (such as commanders, etc), don't have any points attached and therefore are free under current format.

Looking at how the app functions, and now this points format, I don't think characters etc will get drones as upgrades. You will probably buy a pool of them and allocate out accordingly. Who knows? It's really messed up though.

Sorry I only exclusively use the coldstar or named comanders

But 5 points on crisis comanders and 10 on enforcers.

The high output burst cannon is now 0 points so for 135 for the default coldstar loadout which is 5 less than the field manuals 140.

The issue is we are still stuck with not actually being able to take the HOBC without the misslepod.

Drones are listed in their own section for the old points at the end so god knows what GW are playing at as they now have 2 points for the same models in the same codex.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

you need to kill 30% more non-character units to get the same amount of points. It got nerfed.

Nobody's saying it didn't get nerfed. I'm pointing out that the nerf doesn't accomplish their stated objective. They explicitly say they did this because it was too hash on GK and TS. But this change doesn't fix that. This change means I can take 3 psykers as eldar or CSM soup...it doesn't change the fact that any pure GK or TS list will still give up 15 easy points from abhor. Yes, you have to kill more of the army than before...but you're still going to max it, unless you're getting roflstomped.

|t's just a bad change: it doesn't do what they said they made the change in order to do. It's better than nothing, but given that they were taking the time to supposedly try to fix the worst secondary in the game, they didn't accomplish their aim. It's still a garbage secondary.

Tycho wrote:

Observe Tycho being so blind he repeated calls me Cadian when my user name is clearly Canadian 5th. Can we trust a user who literally can't even read correctly?

Apologies for the disability ...

Just blame auto-correct on your phone. Who hasn't sent a message & not noticed AC did its own thing to a normal word....

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

you need to kill 30% more non-character units to get the same amount of points. It got nerfed. I'm still hoping GW eventually makes all kill-centric secondaries unable to double dip tho.

It is still double dipping and GK aren't the most resilient of armies. they are costed like DG, but without the +1W or the DR. To not get 15, my opponent would really have not do any killing at all. And from my expiriance, if you play vs the most common armies in 9th, losing 3-4 characters and 2-3 units in a game is something that happens everytime. And I play a sub optimal army with a lot of termintors. A GK army run the proper way with interceptors and strikes is not going to feel much difference, because technicaly it was giving way more then 15 VPs to AtW. It is a stupid secondary that should not exist. Specialy considering that the balance to it a warp objectives which are not realy doable. Specialy with psychic actions being dispelable by the opponent and stoping you from doing stuff. It makes even less sense when one considers that the psychic powers that make the whole army work, can only be taken by characters. So giving up them to do psychic actions is like playing with one third of your chapter tactic, and it has a build in counter against any opponent that can stop psychic powers.

Just blame auto-correct on your phone. Who hasn't sent a message & not noticed AC did its own thing to a normal word....

If you look at my posts, you'll see most end up being edited multiple times. I should just end all of them with "sent from my iPhone" and not worry about it!

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

I think the idea was that if maxing it no longer provides as many points as other Secondaries, it provides some balance because taking it, yields a potential max that is less than what the 1k sons or GK could earn if they max their secondary.

The stacking still is an issue though, and eliminating stacking would have solved more problems than this fix does. It is something though, and it will change the dynamic.

PenitentJake wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

I think the idea was that if maxing it no longer provides as many points as other Secondaries, it provides some balance because taking it, yields a potential max that is less than what the 1k sons or GK could earn if they max their secondary.

The stacking still is an issue though, and eliminating stacking would have solved more problems than this fix does. It is something though, and it will change the dynamic.

But it doesn't. It still provides more easy points than any other kill secondary except maybe Titan Killers. Any pure GK or TS list will still give up the full 15 points. It helps chaos soup or eldar a lot, it helps GK or TS comparatively little. Just the opposite of why they said they were making the change.

Now if they limited it to 10 points total, NOW we'd be talking...

I can tell you that GK trying to do warp objectives are not maxing anything, they are so hard to perform, and so easy to counter that it is best not to bother with them.

And it does nothing, in an avarge game vs an avarge list you still going to be giving up 11+VP. And the 15th isn't that hard to achive. At least against GK. No idea how many actual 1ksons units, 1ksons armies run nowadays. From what I have seen it is one big unit, but it is hard to judge based on no research and one player at one store, and some tournament lists.


I mean if the opponent kill 2 characters and 2 units. Which is really not hard considering how aggro the game is right now, and how fast good armies move and how close to the enemy GK have to get to do it. It is still 10VPs. I don't think there are many well build armies that can not kill 2x5 meq/teq and 2 characters over 5 turns. Not even tau are that bad.

Nobody runs pure TS because it's garbage. But if you actually did, it'd still give up well over 15 with the new values.

TJ Lanigan's chaos list is about the heaviest TS currently running around (TS make up 875 points of it), and that still gives up an astounding 19 points under the new values (almost all from characters).

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

Interestingly, in its new form, if you took Abhor against my Thousand Sons army you could theoretically max it, but it'd be a HELL of a trap take unless you were planning on totally tabling me.

You'd have to kill the Unkillable Chicken LOC, 30 Pinks, 20 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs, Ahriman and 1 other Exalsorc on disk.

That's like 3/4 of my army.

That is kind of a bad. I guess they run a lot of librarians and demon casters?

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The problem with new abhor isn't the 3 per character, it's the 2 per unit. This means you'll still auto-take it against TS or GK - which also means that their "solution" doesn't address the very problem they said it was aimed to address. It's another /facepalm moment.

Interestingly, in its new form, if you took Abhor against my Thousand Sons army you could theoretically max it, but it'd be a HELL of a trap take unless you were planning on totally tabling me.

You'd have to kill the Unkillable Chicken LOC, 30 Pinks, 20 Rubrics, 10 Scarabs, Ahriman and 1 other Exalsorc on disk.

That's like 3/4 of my army.

Yeah, but it was a trap to take it against that sort of list before, too. The only thing that changed betweeen before and now for that list is that you get less points for killing an unkillable unit (irrelevant), and less points for killing protected characters that shouldn't be dying anyway.

Ironically, the netlist this helps most is triple keeper.

Posted it first in the Rumors Thread and found this one.
I checked Black Templar Units and Emperors Champion dropped 5 points down to 80 but also Crusader Initiates cost now 15ppm instead of 18 which would mean Tactical Marines for 15ppm basicly?
This has to be an Error?

Oh hey, never mind. I was forgetting that old abhor was 3 points per non-character unit, now it's 2. It was even worse than I remembered!

That actually does change things. I change my opinion a little bit. It's still a garbage secondary, but the fix is not quite as bad as I thought. Though that also really goes to show how unbelievably bad the old abhor was.

Karol wrote:

It is still double dipping and GK aren't the most resilient of armies. they are costed like DG, but without the +1W or the DR. To not get 15, my opponent would really have not do any killing at all. And from my expiriance, if you play vs the most common armies in 9th, losing 3-4 characters and 2-3 units in a game is something that happens everytime. And I play a sub optimal army with a lot of termintors. A GK army run the proper way with interceptors and strikes is not going to feel much difference, because technicaly it was giving way more then 15 VPs to AtW. It is a stupid secondary that should not exist. Specialy considering that the balance to it a warp objectives which are not realy doable. Specialy with psychic actions being dispelable by the opponent and stoping you from doing stuff. It makes even less sense when one considers that the psychic powers that make the whole army work, can only be taken by characters. So giving up them to do psychic actions is like playing with one third of your chapter tactic, and it has a build in counter against any opponent that can stop psychic powers.

yeah, which is why i said i'd rather make all kill-secondaries independent.

Double dipping is bad game design and ITC used to prevent it, i don't understand why GW got rid of this restriction.

Nobody runs pure TS because it's garbage. But if you actually did, it'd still give up well over 15 with the new values.

I run pure Tsons. Garbage is probably too weak a description.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Double dipping is bad game design and ITC used to prevent it, i don't understand why GW got rid of this restriction.

I've been banging that horn since 9th came out, and getting abuse for it here. It's bonkers game design. It's so obviously bad that it feels like there has to be some reason for it - not a reason that makes sense, mind you, but some reason - in the heads of the developers. It can't just be an oversight.

yukishiro1 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Double dipping is bad game design and ITC used to prevent it, i don't understand why GW got rid of this restriction.

I've been banging that horn since 9th came out, and getting abuse for it here. It's bonkers game design. It's so obviously bad that it feels like there has to be some reason for it - not a reason that makes sense, mind you, but some reason - in the heads of the developers. It can't just be an oversight.

Probably because ITC is quite polarizing, some people love it, others despise it and think that anything that comes from it is bad.

I personally never like the format that much but if GW is going o copy paste it , they shouldve done a proper copy paste

yukishiro1 wrote:
I've been banging that horn since 9th came out

I think you're mixing metaphors.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


yeah, which is why i said i'd rather make all kill-secondaries independent.

Double dipping is bad game design and ITC used to prevent it, i don't understand why GW got rid of this restriction.

I wonder what they based their changes on, because there is no way someone at the studio plays GK for real. Maybe someone was running a 3 librarian or 3 seer list, and it felt unfair to give up so many VPs so easily, while at the same time without the expiriance of how fast a unit of 5 strikes or interceptors dies, they don't have a real feel for how many GK units die per game. I can't base it on myself, because I am neither a tournament or good player. But all those game with GK done by GW playtesters or other good players always end up in blood baths with like 4-5 units deads and 2 characters. I think almost every GK army takes if we stand we fight, which means opponents will try to kill at least 2 of our big units, and then they will try to kill 2-3 units that sit on primary objectives. Those units are always dead, unless something really bad happens to opponents dice.

Well all in all, it is a good change. I mean they could have made the change worse, and hike up so points. It is not like that didn't do stuff like that in the past. So the FAQ ain't so bad. Even If do wish we got normal range on incinerators.

Hey guys, warnings and vacations have been issued, some cleaning has been applied. In the future, please report, don't retort, thanks!

Probably because ITC is quite polarizing, some people love it, others despise it and think that anything that comes from it is bad.

I feel like it has more to do with the fact that so few people play the armies truly hit by this that a lot of people really over-looked things like the double-dipping.