Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi All,

There seem to be general agreement that upping grots to 5pts from the previous 3pts just about makes them the most overcosted infantry in the game, compared to their actual stats.

However, if it's GW policy to start anything and low-cap at 5pts, how do we fix grots, to make them viable again?

Personally I think they should stil be weedy, so my personal favourite solution would be to bunch them up in swarms. 5 to a larger base for example, and then keep statline same but up A and W, and give them pistol 5. Would make for quick movement phases, and only really cause the grief that people would need to rebase.

Alternatively, to avoid rebasing and justifying the new high point cost, another option would be let them take extra stuff in units. Maybe bombsquigs like we know from tankbustas, or something that gives them some clout in close combat. (What you think? Big squigs, mutant grots like AOS trolls?) or even some heavy guns, similar to how eldar guardians or IG infantry squads can take heavy guns with them.

What's your idea?

So your solution is actually to invalidate all the existing models so that players must buy the new ones? The swarms in larger bases I mean.

Easy fix for gretchins could be giving them Grot Shields as a free ability in their datasheet, that work for any infantries behind them and not just one unit without the limitation of being close to the shooter than the shielded unit.

Maybe allowing them to get the kultur bonus of the detachment they belong to.

Oh and horde bonus triggered on 11+ models, not 21+. In fact considering how blasts work I don't see any reason not to give that to ALL units that currently gain some bonus if their body count is 21+.

 Blackie wrote:
So your solution is actually to invalidate all the existing models so that players must buy the new ones?

No.

 sierrakiloph wrote:

and only really cause the grief that people would need to rebase.

My thinking is that it'd speed up the game considerably, and orks are usually high in model count in any case. Being perhaps more of a modeller and tinkerer than a gamer (who isn't with covid, but you know what I mean) I also really like that with swarms you could really go to town with wacky stuff on a larger base. In any case, I know rebasing sucks, and GW has been trying to steer around it. For me personally, rebasing, and sticking on existing models to a 60mm base and adding a bit of flock/gravel/static grass would be very quick.

As a rules-only approach I like your permanent grotshield idea. Maybe add a 6+++ FNP because of them being lucky gits.

Well...I DO think they should be cheaper if T2. Cron scarabs are T3 and for 75pts you get 5bases, so 20w and with "Codes". Same pts you get 15w at T2 without klan.

Maybe force a larger minimun unit size so that player have to commit a certain number of points? Say 20 minimum for 80pts?

Permanent Grot shield is a bad idea unless it goes to 4+ from 2+.

It is certainly a unit hard to balance and with very little design space.

Well, grots used to have a few rules baked in that gave buffs to other units. Or acted in other useful ways, like when having interviewing units gave cover to the unit behind.

Something like that would be fairly useful. Let orks charge through them perhaps, or provide light cover to units behind them. There's a lot of little odds and ends grots do in the fluff, acting as supporting units, slaves, fodder and more. There's plenty GW could do to represent that on the battlefield.

At this point, if we are forced to use GW's asinine and arbitrary 5 point floor, grots need more abilities baked in to make up for their piss poor stats and basically non-existent damage output.

Like Blackie said, they should have the grot shields stratagem built into them baseline, except make it occur on a 4+ instead of a 2+ now that it's unit wide rather than only one Ork unit benefiting from them. Another way of making them relevant as a unit again is making them more effective in performing actions. Orks are lazy creatures at best when doing tasks that don't involve krumping or making things that kill other stuff, so it would be nice to reflect grots doing the dirty work of setting up teleport homers and the like. Maybe give them the ability to move/advance while performing an action?

Back in 3rd or 4th they had 2 fun little abilities. One that let you clear a minefield at the cost of 2d6 grots (or maybe 3d6 can't remember) and the other let you cross difficult terrain when the grots were nearby as they formed a living carpet for the orks. With the exception of meganobs (it described how the grots simply went squish if they tried.)

With the power creep being what it is I could see them just hanging out a weakened grotsheilds. But would prefer something more flavourful.

Give em T3.

"so many grots?" (1 cp)
A unit of grots can summon another unit of grots. They were there all along, your scouts just miscounted the little buggers. Also, they are green and hard to spot. The new unit has 2d6 grots in it, and must begin within 1 inch of the original unit. (Once per game)

"Grots? Death Gaurd? Imposs..."
A unit of grots can strap bombs on themselves and charge the enemy looking for glory and promotion. Each grot so heroified has a 4+ capability to deliver one final, impressive, and suicidal mortal wound in melee, after he makes his normal attacks. (It takes that normal fight to get them worked up enough to pull the pin and charge).

"Personal Growth"
A full number unit of grots can transfer d6 of their number into a different unit of non character orc infantry -- those grots become "counts as" whatever the heck that unit is made of. These were bigger grots and they got promoted over. Now they are stormboys. Or something.

"A sketchy plan" (1 cp)
Like grotshield, only funnier (well, in my mind), and in melee. A nearby unit of melee oriented orks can take a grot unit as bodygaurds into melee. The grots need not bother to roll a charge -- they are going with. This represents them picking the grots up and saying "now, dis her' won hurt a bit" and then using them as shields while the terrified grots flail their arms and scream. And sometimes throwing them at the enemy in a pinch or in frustration.
It may only be used on each grot unit one time, after which, they probably cautiously
avoid any of the orks who just used them to fend off mortarion. This strat also can be used to soak overwatch on the way into melee.

Personally I think grots would be underpriced for 3ppm, and I agree with the decision to up the minimum cost for 10 models to 50.

....HOwever, that still leaves grots overcosted. My solution would be to go the AOS route:

-First ten grots are 5ppm
-Second ten grots are 4ppm
-Third ten grots are 2ppm

Total cost 110, still up from the 90 it costed before to account for the benefits they did get from primarily the new morale rule.

the_scotsman wrote:
Personally I think grots would be underpriced for 3ppm, and I agree with the decision to up the minimum cost for 10 models to 50.

....HOwever, that still leaves grots overcosted. My solution would be to go the AOS route:

-First ten grots are 5ppm
-Second ten grots are 4ppm
-Third ten grots are 2ppm

Total cost 110, still up from the 90 it costed before to account for the benefits they did get from primarily the new morale rule.

Although well intended I have the feeling that that would not change anything.

2× min squad would still be preferable.
So or
A) you force the min squad number to be higher. Let's say 20 min.
B) make the drop in points steeper. 10 for 50. 20 for 80. 30 for 100.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a futher idea to share.

So considering this price point I suggested.
10 grot 50pts
20 grot 80pts
30 grot 100pts.

Add the following layers.
"Weedy and squeeze" As they are very small and weak T2 is staple also, add a -1 to hit as they are hard to hit (a gretchin has to be good at dodging if it wants to survive in an ork camp).

To compensate, as they are well know for also being cowards. Add a -1 for the attrition tests.

Therefore, a lot of bodies that are hard to hit but drop fast due to moral.

Make the Runtherd free (or dirt cheap) if the grot unit is 20 or more. Give him something useful to shoot.
I was going to add -1 to hit for shooting, but Orkimedez beat me to it.

The danger is going back to where they were more popular to take than ORKS, in an ORK army. They need to have niche rules that encourage taking a mob of them but not spamming them. Maybe even a limit that you can only take one squad per detachment or no more than CORE ORKS.

Andykp wrote:
The danger is going back to where they were more popular to take than ORKS, in an ORK army. They need to have niche rules that encourage taking a mob of them but not spamming them. Maybe even a limit that you can only take one squad per detachment or no more than CORE ORKS.

To be fair, I actually don't think that has been a problem in the past. Grots as a unit was never really spammed beyond as the basis of a CP battery, which even fluff wise makes sense since we weren't taking squads of 30 or anything, just min squads of ten. They're never really the core of a list, they're subordinate to shield stuff like Lootas/Flash Gitz or just backfield holders, you often use them as troop placeholders for boyz so you can have more toyz which is the key part of the list. So I don't there's a point in restricting how many you can take. The time when you see boyz being taken en masse is an archetype in of itself, and I don't see that going away any time soon, so it seems like an unncessary restriction.

Andykp wrote:
The danger is going back to where they were more popular to take than ORKS, in an ORK army. They need to have niche rules that encourage taking a mob of them but not spamming them. Maybe even a limit that you can only take one squad per detachment or no more than CORE ORKS.

Easy. To the rule that says they do not benefit from klans, add that there can't be more units of grot than of orks. Same as poxwalkers in the DG.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The danger is going back to where they were more popular to take than ORKS, in an ORK army. They need to have niche rules that encourage taking a mob of them but not spamming them. Maybe even a limit that you can only take one squad per detachment or no more than CORE ORKS.

Easy. To the rule that says they do not benefit from klans, add that there can't be more units of grot than of orks. Same as poxwalkers in the DG.

Easys good.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

Andykp wrote:
The danger is going back to where they were more popular to take than ORKS, in an ORK army. They need to have niche rules that encourage taking a mob of them but not spamming them. Maybe even a limit that you can only take one squad per detachment or no more than CORE ORKS.

Easy. To the rule that says they do not benefit from klans, add that there can't be more units of grot than of orks. Same as poxwalkers in the DG.

I think them already not benefiting from klanz (and don't forget most stratagems) already is enough of a penalty from taking excessive amounts of them. Assuming grot mob exists at some level in the next codex, this really limits a detachment that uses them without being forced to take Ork units that don't fit the grot-focused theme.

I'd say give them permeant Grot Shield and give them access to the old Big Gunz that got squated. You keep the unit as both disposable bullet catchers and can tool them with weak heavy weapons that are largely outclassed by Mek Gunz but can be taken in the troops slot.

A BS 4+ Missile launcher, a slightly stronger mortar and a knock of lascannon. 1 per 10 and now they can contribute. Make those upgrades a squad can take like that gun platform the Eldar Get and boom You can either make them a decent bullet soaker for fragile Ork Units or a source of some minor shooting.

Additionally buff the Runtherd so he affects more Grots. It would be hilarious to see him whipping Killa Kanz to fight harder with a small chance of them turning around and attempting to saw him up. Or to tool him up so he buffs shooting in Grot units. They say in the fluff that these guys are some of the only patient orks, and that they are good at getting Grots to perform as needed. They should be the Go to unit for getting Gretchin of all stripes to

panzerfront14 wrote:
I'd say give them permeant Grot Shield and give them access to the old Big Gunz that got squated. You keep the unit as both disposable bullet catchers and can tool them with weak heavy weapons that are largely outclassed by Mek Gunz but can be taken in the troops slot.

A BS 4+ Missile launcher, a slightly stronger mortar and a knock of lascannon. 1 per 10 and now they can contribute. Make those upgrades a squad can take like that gun platform the Eldar Get and boom You can either make them a decent bullet soaker for fragile Ork Units or a source of some minor shooting.

Additionally buff the Runtherd so he affects more Grots. It would be hilarious to see him whipping Killa Kanz to fight harder with a small chance of them turning around and attempting to saw him up. Or to tool him up so he buffs shooting in Grot units. They say in the fluff that these guys are some of the only patient orks, and that they are good at getting Grots to perform as needed. They should be the Go to unit for getting Gretchin of all stripes to

With current "no models, no rules" policy, you suggestion is total wish thinking. Not bad, just unrealistic. Big guns are gone for good. Let's accept it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Give em T3.

Yeah, gretchin in 2nd ed used to basically be worse guardsmen (WS2 Bs3 S3 T3 W1 I2 A1 Ld5).

Given they're going with orks at S and T 4 now, I reckon making grotz T3 would be fine.

I'd also have no problems with their blastas looking something like: 15/18" S3 Assault 1

I think the *best* (but not most likely) solution would have been to treat grots as the cheapest unit in the game, and then price conscripts/guardsmen/cultists accordingly. So 5 point gretchin, and then like, 6ish point conscripts, 7ish point guardsmen, etc. Everything would take a slight price hike unless they're already so expensive that the necessary pricehike would be an insignificant portion of their points cost.

That's really what I thought the whole point of raising points in 9th edition was going to be. Raising the floor so that you could price the cheapest bodies in the game appropriately. We can only lower points costs so much before spamming that unit creates stat check problems. ("Can you kill my 2,000 1 point orks before I win the game by drowning the table?") So having a minimum of 5ish points makes sense. But givings grots and guardsmen the same pricetag is silly.

But if we're just wishlisting cool things to do with grots...
* I like the "Grot weapons team" idea above, although that same idea on eldar actually does make t hem quite durable in a way that might be ill-advised for grots.
* I kind of like the idea of having them take up half as much transport capacity as an ork boy. So if a truk can seat 12 boyz, it can seat 24 grots. Lets you do cute stuff with driveby grots in mechanized lists.

* Some sort of vaguely grotshield-shaped defensive bonus. Let grot units count as dense terrian for their bigger pals, maybe.

*Maybe let them give up their own attacks in melee to give a bonus attack to another ork unit within 3". Sort of a nod to the old "outnumbered" rules concept. The idea being that the grots aren't actually all that dangerous in their own right, but they're distracting enough to set up their pals' attacks.

* "Get Outta Da Way!" - Let grots auto-advance 6" if they start their movement within 3" of a friendly ork unit. Lets them scurry up the table and get into screening position/objective grabbing position more easily.

But really, grots are the weediest of the weedy on the tabletop. They should just be a cheap unit that is bad at killing, good at dying, and has value in its ability to clog objectives with bodies and screen out enemy reserves.

I like the various Grots as helpers rules, perhaps they should have a bunch of special rules regarding how they interact with the things around them. Or rather the units they have interactions with having those rules. Such as a more reliable Shokk Attack Gun if paired with Grots. Grots making Killa Kanz more resilient to morale, as they see shots pasting their fellows but failing to do more than scratch their paint. Perhaps They could give Kanz a melee buff if they're in the same melee as them, a bonus to hit as another poster mentioned.

If Grots are to be a serious unit, then don't have them do a bunch of damage, and given that outside of a new Grots kit they'll never get heavy teams type deals they should be the helpers of the army. Let the Orks do the heavy lifting, with the Grots making everything run smoother and more efficiently than if they were not present.

Also Grot Gunners should be an upgrade on some units to give them better ballistic skill in tanks or other things.

I would be content having them simply as INFANTRY unit upgrades for wound absorption. Nobs can use them for this purpose without counting for morale (fluffy) albeit only 1 for every 5 Nobs. They'd basically would be inferior but cheap T'au Drones for any infantry unit from Boyz to Meganobs, Lootas, etc. instead of being a unit in and of themselves. Idk maybe that would break the game & be too powerful so you'd need a cap like for every 5th infantry model you get an ammo runt grot meat shield so 30 Boyz could get 6 of them to soak up wounds and Lootas could get 3 for a unit of 15. Things like stormboyz wouldn't get them but Kommandos could. It wouldn't be necessary to give them a subkultur.

Then we would be left with the Runtherder with nothing to do so maybe he could be included in a unit as a bigger, tougher meatshield with offensive capability & if the said infantry unit had 3 or more grots, then he could then be taken and still not count for morale.

I like the idea of embedding grots into infantry units as ablative wounds, in a suitable ratio depending on the unit. They're already doing it with the likes of ammo runts for nobs and meks, this would just be a scaled up version.

For example, a unit of thirty boys with max ten embedded grots for baked in "look out sir" type rolls. It doesn't really do anything for the killing power of the unit, but makes it a teensy bit more durable without fiddling with the profiles for the units.

Have it so the grots don't count for scoring/morale/anything to do with outnumbering/being outnumbered because they're so weedy that nothing really is scared of them or likely to lose to then in a fight. So you would still be rolling to wound against a boy profile, but a 5+ or something to pass the wound onto a grot instead.

At 50 points they are only good as beeing a small and cheap unit.

Lean into that. Have them have the abilaty to run and perform actions in the same turn.

10 points for 3 grots. Can only take them in multiples of 3, sorted?

Cynista wrote:
10 points for 3 grots. Can only take them in multiples of 3, sorted?

The only issue with this that I see is that either GW will have to adjust the molds and the box they come in to accommodate the extra two gretchin (assuming minimum unit size goes to twelve due to the multiples of three), or people will have to buy two boxes to end up with two spare runtherds and eight spare gretchin. It obviously won't be a problem for existing Ork players as most of us have boatloads of them, but it would definitely put me off using them if I were a newer player.

It's splitting hairs really, but maybe saying twenty points for five and must be taken in multiples of five? So a single box would still be a legal unit, and they're a point per model cheaper. It also plays into the obsession GW has with the number five lately.

GW has shown some flexibility with model values with the AM Infantry Squad being 10 models for 55 points. The problem with Grots is that they have unit size of 10-30, so a flat rate that give fraction model value isn't possible without giving fixed options in unit size.

 alextroy wrote:
GW has shown some flexibility with model values with the AM Infantry Squad being 10 models for 55 points. The problem with Grots is that they have unit size of 10-30, so a flat rate that give fraction model value isn't possible without giving fixed options in unit size.

At least if they were five for twenty they'd be four points a pop.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
GW has shown some flexibility with model values with the AM Infantry Squad being 10 models for 55 points. The problem with Grots is that they have unit size of 10-30, so a flat rate that give fraction model value isn't possible without giving fixed options in unit size.

At least if they were five for twenty they'd be four points a pop.

To both of you, why not just reduce their cost to 4 pts? How is 20 pts/5 models any better? Is it really a worry that Conscripts, Gretchin and Brimstone Horrors swarm the meta if they go down to 4 pts? Infantry Squads going up to 55 pts was also pretty dumb given that AM were already struggling, "people are complaining that Gretchin and Cultists are bad compared to Infantry Squads, better nerf the unit that already isn't doing anything competitively to keep the game fair, don't bother nerfing Harlequins though."