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Twilight Pathways wrote:
I've never really got why Dark Angels 'specialise' in so much stuff to be perfectly honest. They have access to older more powerful weapons, so they get buffs to shooting and an eye-watering plasma strat. Oh but they also have that super-special biker element so they get crazy speed and durability on their bikes too. . Still, I understand that despite all this they were pretty awful rules-wise for a long time, so I'm glad DA players get their time in the sun.

6 wings of the hexagramaton. They had 6 formations like that prior end of heresy. Some got lost and some, I think got turned in to entire chapters, based on wing icon being the same as succesor chapters one. Also the unforgiven seem to be cheaters, just like ultramarines, they are only technicaly not a legion.

We should be thankful we don't get primaris and tacticals with stormeshields and rad weapon etc.

 Bosskelot wrote:
A lot of the issues are again because they are using one set of points values for like 9 different books that give wildly different bonuses. 35 ppm for BGV might be perfectly reasonable in UM or IF, but in BA, WS or DA? Get outta here.

Unless they start charging different points for different chapters, the inevitable points increase for BGV are going to screw over other chapters unfairly. In fact the DA book is likely what increased the points of Outriders.

I say this time and time again, but it is the old Ynnari problem, just continued and spread across over much more factions and much more units. Consolidating a lot of Marine stuff into less books is perfectly reasonable, but the points costs should not have been.

That's been case since all the chapter/regiment/dynasty things been existing though. Hardly new thing and apart from making fluffy lists hard is one big reason chapter/regiment/etc bonuses were bad idea from get-go

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is what happens when you go the Supplement/separate codex route for everything instead of consolidation. Anyone supporting the former had this coming to them and I have little sympathy at this point.

GW can't balance two weapon options for a unit, even if they put every chapter tactic and excess army rule, etc into Chapter Approved they would still mess things up, somehow. At least people would only whine over new overpowered rules once a year. Putting every points cost into a single book should make it easy to compare and contrast before sending it out, MFM 20 was still awful, MFM 21 was better in a lot of ways, but it didn't fix half of what needed fixing.

 Bosskelot wrote:
A lot of the issues are again because they are using one set of points values for like 9 different books that give wildly different bonuses.

I say this time and time again, but it is the old Ynnari problem, just continued and spread across over much more factions and much more units. Consolidating a lot of Marine stuff into less books is perfectly reasonable, but the points costs should not have been.

Removing free static rules and letting armies express differences through Stratagems gets rid of 90% of the problem, but 90% of people seem to hate Stratagems.

tneva82 wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
A lot of the issues are again because they are using one set of points values for like 9 different books that give wildly different bonuses. 35 ppm for BGV might be perfectly reasonable in UM or IF, but in BA, WS or DA? Get outta here.

Unless they start charging different points for different chapters, the inevitable points increase for BGV are going to screw over other chapters unfairly. In fact the DA book is likely what increased the points of Outriders.

I say this time and time again, but it is the old Ynnari problem, just continued and spread across over much more factions and much more units. Consolidating a lot of Marine stuff into less books is perfectly reasonable, but the points costs should not have been.

That's been case since all the chapter/regiment/dynasty things been existing though. Hardly new thing and apart from making fluffy lists hard is one big reason chapter/regiment/etc bonuses were bad idea from get-go

When subfactions are restricted to just the "Chapter tactic", 1 extra relic, 1 extra WLT and 1 extra stratagem it's something that can usually be reigned in and controlled, while still providing that bit of customization and represented fluff that people want to make their different chapters/craftworlds/kulturs/dynasties/legions/septs/hive fleets feel distinct. When the subfaction becomes 20 extra stratagems, 6-12 extra relics, 6 extra WLT's an entire new psychic discipline, a superdoctrine and whatever crazy detachment rules that DA get, then it becomes impossible to properly manage. Ynnari and the Altaioc bonus were two issues for a singular book. The Marine supplements are orders of magnitude larger than that.

Really though, all of these types of rules and expanded subfactions should have followed the 3rd and 4th design philosophies that they used to have. Benefits and drawbacks. Like how in the 4th ed codex, when creating your own chapter traits if you chose too many bonuses, you would also have to choose extra restrictions and drawbacks to balance this. Or the 3rd ed BA supplement where the Red Thirst and Black Rage were not just automatic bonuses. They were strong as hell but at least there was an attempt to give them negatives.

tneva82 wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
A lot of the issues are again because they are using one set of points values for like 9 different books that give wildly different bonuses. 35 ppm for BGV might be perfectly reasonable in UM or IF, but in BA, WS or DA? Get outta here.

Unless they start charging different points for different chapters, the inevitable points increase for BGV are going to screw over other chapters unfairly. In fact the DA book is likely what increased the points of Outriders.

I say this time and time again, but it is the old Ynnari problem, just continued and spread across over much more factions and much more units. Consolidating a lot of Marine stuff into less books is perfectly reasonable, but the points costs should not have been.

That's been case since all the chapter/regiment/dynasty things been existing though. Hardly new thing and apart from making fluffy lists hard is one big reason chapter/regiment/etc bonuses were bad idea from get-go

It really isn't bad for the free bonuses, the problem becomes when one bonus is just that much superior to ALL the other options. Like, when 8th began, look at Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, or Ultramarines vs White Scars, World Eaters, or Word Bearers. It's one thing to have a penalty to be hit, whatever, but it's another to lose that advantage for...reroll moral tests. Yeah no. Eldar suffered as well of course, as did Necrons (LOL remember Novokh before?).

Yet GW keeps missing the mark mostly because of laziness and expecting their cult to self regulate.

Karol wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
I've never really got why Dark Angels 'specialise' in so much stuff to be perfectly honest. They have access to older more powerful weapons, so they get buffs to shooting and an eye-watering plasma strat. Oh but they also have that super-special biker element so they get crazy speed and durability on their bikes too. . Still, I understand that despite all this they were pretty awful rules-wise for a long time, so I'm glad DA players get their time in the sun.

6 wings of the hexagramaton. They had 6 formations like that prior end of heresy. Some got lost and some, I think got turned in to entire chapters, based on wing icon being the same as succesor chapters one. Also the unforgiven seem to be cheaters, just like ultramarines, they are only technicaly not a legion.

We should be thankful we don't get primaris and tacticals with stormeshields and rad weapon etc.

That's much, much later fluff I think.

The reality is that back in the dark ages of 2nd edition, Marines basically had regular marines, guys with jump packs, terminators and bikes.

So they made Blood Angels the "take lots of Jump Pack guys" and made flavours of DA "take lots of bikes" and "take lots of terminators".
Which then led to obvious overlap when White Scars became the "take all the bikes" subfaction - but back in the 90s I feel White Scars fluff (and Iron Hands and Imperial Fists etc) was "they exist as a colour scheme."

I don't know if DA are going to be anything like Iron Hands 2.0 but yes, seems like a possibility.
At least this is hopefully it with Marines for 18 months.

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

So - what stands out to you?

Just that we're back to 'if you want to power-up the units you already wanted to take, you must be subfaction <X>.' We never really escaped it, but this seems to double down on the concept again.
Why would most folks run terminators or speeders in any other flavor of space marine army? Bikes have White Scars in theory, but WS can do their advance and charge thing with anything. Free universal Jink is probably better if you want to run bikes- they're fast enough to get into charge range anyway (especially with the extra speed buffs RW can also pile on).

I don't see any particular reason to run regular infantry in DA lists, unless you're really super-obsessed with plasma.

Its seems another unnecessary power up on top of the powered up SM codex.

Well, weirdly enough WS had the ball to carry bikes into the game, but they didn't really. DA seem like they'll get it done, but I don't think people will over-invest when CSM/TS hits the scene who will reliably pull off jink and pick up whole units of bikes at a time.

I'm not opposed to books highlighting units if it doesn't make them absurd. Night Lords and Raptors, Word Bearers and Daemons, Iron Warriors and big guns, etc. The history of armies is replete with thematic units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm really curious how people are going to list build with DA.

Are they going to skip extra obsec and play "regular" marines with jinking bikes and transhuman termies?
Will they ditch Judiciars, Eradicators, Inceptors, Apothecaries, etc to go pure RW/DW? Or will the reach back into a patrol to support the other detachments?

I get the sense that we'll see a lot of variety before it all settles in.

Any DA players have an idea on the direction you're heading in? How will you tackle the gimme secondary?

Maybe people will play different armies. That would be kind of a cool.

I suspect almost everyone will revert back to Terminator + Bikes.

There has been... I don't even know how many years in which Deathwing has been bordering unplayable, Ravenwing has been good only for a brief period in the end of 7th (I think) and most of DA players I know were playing heavy infantry Greenwing for some years (many with Azrael, I didn't use it and goes heavy on Dreadnought and Talonmaster but that's because what I was painting).

If/when I will play again I will dust off my Ravenwing and probably will go for something like 1 big unit of Bikes, 1 of Black Knight, a Talonmaster, a Ravenwing Apothecary, 1-3 basic Speeder or some Vengeance, a big block of Deathwing Terminator with an Ancient for durability (I don't know if 5+++ as in the Index is still a thing) and support characters.

Some Scouts or Tactical in a Rhino or drop pod to have options in grabbing objective, and probably one or two indirect long range fire weapons like a Whirlwind to take care of scoring units that don't deserve heavy firepower.

I mean, that's basically what should be a fluffy army, and it's been unplayable for years.

one of the strongest aspects of the book is Stubborn Defiance.

It's almost "Priority Target" for every mission (and stacks with Priority target if you play that mission). 15 points secondary for holding a single objective in your corner is pretty insane for an army with access to ObSec, perma-Transhuman Terminators/BGV.

Yeah, there are a few armies that might attempt to steal it once a game to disrupt it, like maybe Harlequins (just don't take it in those games). But in 85% of match-ups, this might well be the easiest faction-specific secondary yet.

And hiding an End Game Secondary on top is also pretty nice is some situations? Did he take Assassinate or While We Stand? Guess I won't know until the game is over.

Twilight Pathways wrote:
I've never really got why Dark Angels 'specialise' in so much stuff to be perfectly honest. They have access to older more powerful weapons, so they get buffs to shooting and an eye-watering plasma strat. Oh but they also have that super-special biker element so they get crazy speed and durability on their bikes too. Ah, and don't forget they have the most *and* the toughest terminators of any chapter (?), and they have this martial/knightly theme going on, so they get a ton of bonkers combat stuff. I realise this must all come from the lore (not up on loyalist lore I'm afraid) but it seems an awfully unfocused approach to a chapter in light of how the other chapters are designed, and was bound to end in tears. Still, I understand that despite all this they were pretty awful rules-wise for a long time, so I'm glad DA players get their time in the sun.

Actually thats one of the best things about the chapter. Maybe they turboboosted it a little too much right now, but the fact that by playing Dark Angels you aren't forced to play mono-theme marines and can go meele, elite, shooting, speed, etc... is great. And that diversification of their theme is why they have sucked ass for so many years. So lets chill a little before claiming the sky is falling.

Yeah, I always thought Dark Angel are the epitome of a "tactical" chapter (with Ultramarine), but while UM use more flexibly their basic infantry, DA have all the specialized roles they need (standard Greenwing is a roadblock, don't have anything particularly good going for them in the recent incarnation except maybe the cap or morale losses that allowed you to play 10 men squad easily.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
one of the strongest aspects of the book is Stubborn Defiance.

It's almost "Priority Target" for every mission (and stacks with Priority target if you play that mission). 15 points secondary for holding a single objective in your corner is pretty insane for an army with access to ObSec, perma-Transhuman Terminators/BGV.

Yeah, there are a few armies that might attempt to steal it once a game to disrupt it, like maybe Harlequins (just don't take it in those games). But in 85% of match-ups, this might well be the easiest faction-specific secondary yet.

And hiding an End Game Secondary on top is also pretty nice is some situations? Did he take Assassinate or While We Stand? Guess I won't know until the game is over.

That sounds like what is going to be the most problematic.
I don't know if GW don't realise how much of a buff that sort of scoring stack is or if this is what's coming in future codex's.

 Cybtroll wrote:
standard Greenwing is a roadblock, don't have anything particularly good going for them in the recent incarnation except maybe the cap or morale losses that allowed you to play 10 men squad easily.

Firing into close combat seems pretty solid/useful.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
one of the strongest aspects of the book is Stubborn Defiance.

With that one it is basically disrupt it before turn 4 scoring. People that rush to get it blocked will probably suffer. If it is blocked at that point the max they can score is 7 ( skip, score 2, score 3, disrupt/skip, score 2 )

If DA go first they'll score at the top of turn 4 -- 3 turns of opposition. If they go second then they have to weather four turns - or almost the entire game - to score well.

It might seem easy, but could end up being a bit of a trap, too.

 Galas wrote:

Twilight Pathways wrote:
I've never really got why Dark Angels 'specialise' in so much stuff to be perfectly honest. They have access to older more powerful weapons, so they get buffs to shooting and an eye-watering plasma strat. Oh but they also have that super-special biker element so they get crazy speed and durability on their bikes too. Ah, and don't forget they have the most *and* the toughest terminators of any chapter (?), and they have this martial/knightly theme going on, so they get a ton of bonkers combat stuff. I realise this must all come from the lore (not up on loyalist lore I'm afraid) but it seems an awfully unfocused approach to a chapter in light of how the other chapters are designed, and was bound to end in tears. Still, I understand that despite all this they were pretty awful rules-wise for a long time, so I'm glad DA players get their time in the sun.

Actually thats one of the best things about the chapter. Maybe they turboboosted it a little too much right now, but the fact that by playing Dark Angels you aren't forced to play mono-theme marines and can go meele, elite, shooting, speed, etc... is great. And that diversification of their theme is why they have sucked ass for so many years. So lets chill a little before claiming the sky is falling.

The problem is, that isn't a DA thing. It's the baseline for all marines. Even chaos marines.
Special rules on top of special rules is just raising the bar too high.
And the unfortunately it's just a legacy problem. All marines were just standard marines, but 2nd edition came along and they picked out a couple as Super Dupery Special, and have been hanging themselves on that decision ever since. It's become a sacred cow they can't get rid of, because for some reason both GW and the customer base can't shake the idea that a minor tweak to theme and identity= a pile of extra rules.

But we know how marines were doing, when they were not equiped with all the rules they have now.

And how good they do without anything right now is easy to check. Just take one of the csm legions that has non working rules, and check how popular it is, or how good were some marine chapters, before they got their 2.0 rule set.

I have to agree with the person that said that our Greenwing is the part of the Codex that has been let down. DA may be a really strong, tournament winning, Codex, but it will ONLY be down to Ravenwing and Deathwing. I finished reading Goonhammers review, and the lists that they created. How much Greenwing was there to be seen? In fact, most of my casual TAC list is actually worse now than the 8th and Index versions we had. Things like Devastator squads, Whirlwinds, Predators, and the humble Tac marine. Having reroll of 1:s or +1 to hit was good for Greenwing. Now what? Hitting on 5:s(4:s) if we stay in combat? Meh at best. Either we are locked up by some chaff that could be cleared anyway, or we have a few survivors from a Bullgryn charge that are going to fall back even if the Lion himself was screaming for us to stand firm!

Will DA be powerful. Oh yes! But the internal balance within the Codex is WAY off. Now, this is not something unique for us, but all SM. Why would you run a Predator instead of a Redemptor dredd? What is the purpose of firstborn assault marines? I am afraid that we will now have an entire edition of C:Black/White rather than Codex: DA. 80% of the Chapter might as well stay at home.

Agusto wrote:
I have to agree with the person that said that our Greenwing is the part of the Codex that has been let down. DA may be a really strong, tournament winning, Codex, but it will ONLY be down to Ravenwing and Deathwing. I finished reading Goonhammers review, and the lists that they created. How much Greenwing was there to be seen? In fact, most of my casual TAC list is actually worse now than the 8th and Index versions we had. Things like Devastator squads, Whirlwinds, Predators, and the humble Tac marine. Having reroll of 1:s or +1 to hit was good for Greenwing. Now what? Hitting on 5:s(4:s) if we stay in combat? Meh at best. Either we are locked up by some chaff that could be cleared anyway, or we have a few survivors from a Bullgryn charge that are going to fall back even if the Lion himself was screaming for us to stand firm!

Will DA be powerful. Oh yes! But the internal balance within the Codex is WAY off. Now, this is not something unique for us, but all SM. Why would you run a Predator instead of a Redemptor dredd? What is the purpose of firstborn assault marines? I am afraid that we will now have an entire edition of C:Black/White rather than Codex: DA. 80% of the Chapter might as well stay at home.

Weapons of the Dark Age is most powerful in Greenwing. Jink and Inner Circle is still a thing there, too. You just don't get obsec on those units.

In the example lists one had 31 non-character models. The other had nothing to really hold the backfield. There's a good chance Greenwing shines just as well.

"Jink and Inner Circle is still a thing there, too." Well, for units that are still has the Ravenwing and Deathwing keywords. Yes, my bike squad will get to Jink and my Termies will be tougher to beat. But that is my point. Even in a standard battalion and NOT running 1:st or 2:nd Companies, the difference between Deathwing units and non-deathwing in pure power are... well, huge! Like I asked before, how did our weakest units become any better with this Codex? Like Predators, Land Raiders or Whirlwinds? And I know that the answers will be: "lol, don't play firstborne vehicles, they suck".

They could have given us that reroll 1:s if we stayed still, and toned down the Raven/Deathwing, while still making it playable by giving us the CP back for 1:st Company and such.

You can't expect every unit to be given an ability. That would be even more nutty. No one is really using vehicles like that right now, but as DA you can get survivable Land Speeders in place to use Telemetry for your WW better than anyone else.

So, a 2cp strat for +1 to hit (and yes, I know that is +1 for ALL units). Well, that strat used to be 1cp for auto-hit with Whirlwinds! And still noone used it, so...
And also, ALL our units did have that ability in 8th. And it wasn't nutty. We still had a 40% competitive win rate.
Again, it feels as if GW became so focused on making the unique parts of DA better (and from what they were in 8th, and what has happened to the game, they needed it), but I still feel that, and this is just my personal opinion, that they forgot about what is supposed to be the majority of the chapter. Now ordinary marines are just that, marines, but in green.

I dunno. I bet you could find a lot of ground in pumping rifles into combat.

DA auto-pass morale so 10 man blocks of firstborn with meltaguns kicking them off in melee sounds pretty fabulous to me. Horde Greenwing that is hard to wound and beating stuff up 100% of the time? I bet that will be popular.

I can't say I agree with you. BUT, if you are right and Greenwing makes a comeback, I will be the first to admit being wrong, and I will be glad doing so

Sorry - I have to correct my statement a bit. Since most of those greenwings won't be deathwing they won't have Inner Circle. I'm going to ponder up a crappy list real quick.

I think it’s still to early to tel if this is the “strongest” book in 9th OR the “strongest so far” book after the terrible treatment in 7th and the wait till the end to be at par with the rest of 8th edition this is a welcome change to be head of the line for 9th. There are some broken rule combinations I expect will be FAQd within the next month or so. But as of this moment I’m very happy with my army’s new buffs with over 20K worth of DA I can field many fun and possibly competitive lists!

This is 1,500ish and all old marine.

Bikes exist to pin the opponent in their DZ.

Devs in drop pods are the alpha. Put the landspeeders w/i 18" of a bit target and then all Devs will hit on 3s instead of 4s. Use Dark Age on one. Azrael comes with to give them durability and support. Chief Apothecary, too to bring them back - might need some ablative wounds. Pods can also come down one turn at a time - reconfigure as needed, because pods are awesome.

Landspeeders also give WW +1 to hit for free if they're using Blast, which will help balance the list against hordes.

Spend the remaining points on a dread and some terminators maybe?

Azrael [170]
Chief Apothecary (Not DW), Selfless [75]

Tacs, Combi-Grav, Meltagun [110] x 3

6 Bikes, Stuff [220ish]
6 Bikes, Stuff [220ish]

2 Landspeeders, MM [140]

Drop Pod x 2 [140]
Devs, 4x PC, Cherub [155]
Devs, 4x PC, Cherub [155]

Whirlwind [125]

I think you are still missing some hard units to be put on the objective game.
I would drop Azrael and invest the remaining point in Tactical (1 squad combat squadded) to go with the pods and Terminator because, well, reasons.

I play DA and I'll wait some time before playing. They seems functional, definitely better than Necron, not necessarily better than DG.

I stand by my initial analysis that, in fairly short order, the 'Cron 'Dex will be revealed to be somewhere near the bottom-middle tier. That said - so far from what I'm seeing - yeah DA>DG. UNLESS Mortarion proves to be as nasty as we think, and then it becomes DA>DG w/out Mortarion IMO. DG are tough, but everyone seems to be missing the fact that, Mortarion not withstanding, they still lack a really strong offensive punch. As a DG player myself, I think the DG book is fantastic, but I'm also not sure hanging our hats on how tough they are, is a recipe for long term success at a time when the game has never been more "killy", and bringing down something like a knight is borderline trivial to most armies. I think DG will shake up the meta, and possibly allow more "non-marine" books to place higher in a more consistent fashion, but I don't think they're going to be the unstoppable force so many are expecting.

I don't think all the Legions will be stuffed in one book. Giving all of the Undivided Legions the supplement treatment, and giving WE and EC their own codexes, is just too much money for gw to pass up. How good they'll be waits to be seen. I'm still waiting on CSM 3.5 2.0.

They've been able to "pass it up" for the previous several ... decades ... so I'm not sure why that would change now. Honestly, I think I'd actually be good with keeping Tsons and DG as seperate books because they are pretty different, and then rolling the Legions from PA into the main CSM book. I play Iron Warriors, Tsons, and DG, and I honestly can't really make a great argument for why my IW need a supplement. Just give me a few pages of really solid rules.

At least I have my trusty Necrons. feth I love Necrons.

Don't worry Daed ... It starts to pass once you realize about a third of the book is just redundant units that do the same thing as other, more efficient units, and how wasted a lot of the entries actually are. That is, UNLESS you played 'crons in 8th. In which case, you'll probably remember this book as the greatest thing EVER, and I don't think anyone would hold it against you ...

Far as DA being the new IH - Nah, I don't think it's that bad, but I will say it doesn't bode well for that age old issue of codex creep, nor does it bode well for the more recent "Marines get all the nice things" discussion.

 Cybtroll wrote:
I think you are still missing some hard units to be put on the objective game.
I would drop Azrael and invest the remaining point in Tactical (1 squad combat squadded) to go with the pods and Terminator because, well, reasons.

Yea there's flex there, but most importantly I wanted to see if there was an avenue for Greenwing. I seems at least plausible.