Iron Hands 2: Dark Angaloo?

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**Daedalus81**

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

At some point you have to accept that some chapters use different units to various efficacies.

Why would you take dreadnoughts outside of IH? They get a 6+++, can punt one to a character, and give it 4++ and -1 to wound. They can also heal them better than anyone else. But you still see dreads, because they offer something else to whatever the list is trying to accomplish. Same thing with RG and Eliminators. Or Salamanders and Eradicators.

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.

Terminators don't even synergize with UM in any good way and I doubt you want to take 3 units of them. DA have some potential list building challenges that will be interesting to see how they take shape.

Tactical terms were doing well for me. gman buff is great for them but now there is just no point to include terms in any army other than DA. I can only hope my Black legion gets some random buff to terminators...maybe like...3+ invune saves for no additional points (ofc I am joking) that makes just about as much sense as max 4+ to wound on DA terms and inner circle.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

At some point you have to accept that some chapters use different units to various efficacies.

Why would you take dreadnoughts outside of IH? They get a 6+++, can punt one to a character, and give it 4++ and -1 to wound. They can also heal them better than anyone else. But you still see dreads, because they offer something else to whatever the list is trying to accomplish. Same thing with RG and Eliminators. Or Salamanders and Eradicators.

That's a chapter tactic (which is included in the cost you pay for a model). While they should be as equal in strength as possible (as we know they aren't even close) but other than that - the units should be identical. This is literally just a free bonus rule - it replaces nothing that other marines "pay for" it is just a bonus rule...which happens to be - one of the most powerful stratagems in the army...for free...on a unit that can't even use the stratagem to begin with. It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

**bullyboy**

Actually it won't.
When the lists start hitting the table and people find that it's nowhere near as bad as people think (they will still drop to massed S4 weaponry like before), and DA players realize they run out of points really, really quickly, all will be forgotten as people complain about the next codex.

There is so much to like in the codex, but when you start to try and compile a list to make use of it all, you find your force is much smaller than anticipated. Just looking at characters alone, people say you'll want a Librarian, probably 2. Then of course the bike chaplain. That talonmaster brings a lot to the table, don't want to leave him out. Then there is the Ravenwing apothecary, upgraded, need him. i don't have someone to reroll hits, need to bring a Master in there somewhere. Oh, and that terminator ancient for the -1D to my terminators. Am I missing anything? Oh yeah, my actual units.

**Ordana**

Galas wrote:
TBH I believe people needs to calm down a little.

Many changes in the new dark angel codex are actual nerfs for old rules. Old rules that nobody used because they where bad (Like the new -1 damage standard... the old version was MUCH better and still, it wasn't used. I know it, I have been playing heavy deathwing DA for all of 8th and much of 9th)

Lets put the example of Bladeguard Veterans in Dark Angels, or heck, Terminators. "They have transhuman permanently, thats unfair with all other chapters!"

Is it? What other bonus do they receive for being Dark Angels? +1 to hit in meele if they are charged or they charged and survived two full meele phases? What kind of bonus receives a Dark Angel assault terminator or deathwing knight for being dark angel? Permanent transhuman. Ok, thats a good bonus.

What those units receive for being Imperial Fists or Ravenguard? Hmm... TBH, quite bad bonuses that don't make them that much better, yeah, maybe they should1 be cheaper there...

but wait... What those units receive in White Scars armies or Blood Angels armies in contrast with permanente transhuman? Advance and charge, retreat and charge and +1 Damage from turn 3 onwards? +1" to advance and charge rolls and +1 to wound? Wow, those are good buffs that sinergy with those units! What kind of price increases should they receive? Oh wait... they haven't received no price increase in all this time and nobody claimed for it.

The fact that subfaction rules work better for some units over others has been a constant from the beginning of 8th. Deathwing terminators have received literally no bonus compared with most other terminators. Now they have two, obsec and permanent transhuman. Thats good! Is soo good that people need to lose their minds? I don't think so. And when results start coming, you'll see the same.

The amount of hiperbolic fearmongering with each new release is just absurd. And then months pases and most stuff wasn't that bad.

Really? No one in your mind said BGV's are to cheap?
Pretty sure every space marine unit in Indomitus was complained about as being to cheap.

**Galas**

That was not the point I was making. Ignore BGV then, apply it to terminators.

**Ordana**

bullyboy wrote:
Actually it won't.
When the lists start hitting the table and people find that it's nowhere near as bad as people think (they will still drop to massed S4 weaponry like before), and DA players realize they run out of points really, really quickly, all will be forgotten as people complain about the next codex.

There is so much to like in the codex, but when you start to try and compile a list to make use of it all, you find your force is much smaller than anticipated. Just looking at characters alone, people say you'll want a Librarian, probably 2. Then of course the bike chaplain. That talonmaster brings a lot to the table, don't want to leave him out. Then there is the Ravenwing apothecary, upgraded, need him. i don't have someone to reroll hits, need to bring a Master in there somewhere. Oh, and that terminator ancient for the -1D to my terminators. Am I missing anything? Oh yeah, my actual units.

Ah the plight of space marine players, where they have to many units that are good and worth taking.
So much easier as a Xenos who have only a hand full of options that are remotely viable.

Yes you need to make actual choices and yes you can't bring everything you want to. Yes people will bring the wrong stuff and it will be terrible.
But there are enough smart players who are able to actually write effective lists and as soon as those lists hit the scene, everyone will simply copy them.

**Xenomancers**

bullyboy wrote:
Actually it won't.
When the lists start hitting the table and people find that it's nowhere near as bad as people think (they will still drop to massed S4 weaponry like before), and DA players realize they run out of points really, really quickly, all will be forgotten as people complain about the next codex.

There is so much to like in the codex, but when you start to try and compile a list to make use of it all, you find your force is much smaller than anticipated. Just looking at characters alone, people say you'll want a Librarian, probably 2. Then of course the bike chaplain. That talonmaster brings a lot to the table, don't want to leave him out. Then there is the Ravenwing apothecary, upgraded, need him. i don't have someone to reroll hits, need to bring a Master in there somewhere. Oh, and that terminator ancient for the -1D to my terminators. Am I missing anything? Oh yeah, my actual units.

Hate to say it but playing this army - no one is going to want to play against you. Then it's going to get nerfed right after once you put a lot of effort into it. It really is that bad. People complain about transhuman when I play it on intercessors. Getting it for free on terminators...is just stupid.

**Ordana**

Galas wrote:
That was not the point I was making. Ignore BGV then, apply it to terminators.

Being tough is really strong in an edition where being able to survive standing on an objective is the #1 concern.
Having a free permanent transhuman means someone else standing on a different objective can also still get transhuman. And they get obsec to boot, against a strong thing in this edition.

But I suspect BGV's will edge out Deathwing Terminators in competitive lists. They do the same thing (stand on an objective and live) better (thanks to storm shields) and for cheaper.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Ordana wrote:
Or, and this may shock you. Faction buffs should not be free, at all.

Not shocking at all. Just shuffling the deck chairs around at best and even more ways to over tune army lists further separating balance at worst. All while risking creating a game more unbalanced by making it more difficult to balance. Putting points to subfaction rules would largely change a 2000pt game to 2000 minus whatever the additional rules points cost with the added possibility of a race to the bottom/creating armies that are further from their lore.

Example: Rusted Claw Atalan Bikers cost an additional 5pts per model. That makes Atalan Bikers not worth the cost to take, so a player creates a Rusted Claw army that actually contains no bikers but keeps Rusted Claw and take cheaper Abberants compared to Twisted Helix to avoid 10pt surcharge per model there. Congrats, you just created a system where player are incentivized to not take the signature units of those subfactions in race to avoid paying those points. Possibly creating a worst issue of haves and have-nots between subfactions where some subfactions can avoid paying for special rules and others can't.

Conversely, you have Rusted Claw Atalan Bikers cost only 1pt more per model. So at most that adds 30 points to an army list. Let's say the AP ignore is 5pts per 500pts. Basically every army list is going to have some kind of surcharge like this, so everyone is playing something like a 1950pt game more or less. Which granted, MIGHT move the game towards being more balanced but likely barely noticeable since we are talking about something like a change 1-5% drop in the spending power of what points buys an army and a functional difference of like 1-3% between subfactions. And again, that's assume the subfactions are pointed correctly in the first place. They could very easily be (and likely would be) pointed incorrectly further inbalancing the game. Fortunately, in a barely perceivable way.

So you have introduced more complication which in turn can lead to less balance very easily and even less lore friendly armies to create this dial if used incorrectly. Which given GW's track record is most likely to happen. You would probably be better off dropping subfaction rules (which your gaming group is more than free to do at anytime) than attempt to further busy the points balancing system that would more likely be misused than applied for its intended effect which could also be very minimal in its impact.

Your agument boils down to "GW is bad and can't balance it anyway so why try" and "points can't balance the game". If you believe that then you might aswell throw your hands in the air and quit now because there is no future.

Yes GW is plenty incometent, that should not stop us from wanting them to do better. And yes small point costs do add up to help balance things. Or can I have my 1 point GSC hand flamers back? Because as you say, small point changes don't matter anyway.

And yes everyone would be playing 1950 + 50 points of special subfaction rules. Thats how balance works. We are supposed to all play roughly the same cost and power armies. The problem comes from my 38 point terminator being significantly worse then your 38 point terminator.

**Gadzilla666**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

At some point you have to accept that some chapters use different units to various efficacies.

Why would you take dreadnoughts outside of IH? They get a 6+++, can punt one to a character, and give it 4++ and -1 to wound. They can also heal them better than anyone else. But you still see dreads, because they offer something else to whatever the list is trying to accomplish. Same thing with RG and Eliminators. Or Salamanders and Eradicators.

And exactly how much more or less efficiently do other chapters use Deathwing Terminators?

Again, Deathwing Terminators are a separate unit from Terminators, Dark Angels can use either, but only Dark Angels can use the former. Deathwing Terminators are obviously superior, but cost the same price. They pay nothing for the Inner Circle ability. How does that make sense? Blightlords cost more than Chaos Terminators because of Disgustingly Resilient, their additional wound, and 4++, which makes sense. I'm not arguing about faction abilities, I'm arguing about Deathwing Terminators vs standard Terminators.

**bullyboy**

To get obsec DW terminators you need a character and 3 Elite choices with Inner Circle keyword. You will then probably have a second detachment that will cost you command points (Patrol probably, maybe an outrider). DA strats are pretty damn pricey, so you'll chew through them easy enough.

People just need to calm the f down.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:

Tactical terms were doing well for me. gman buff is great for them but now there is just no point to include terms in any army other than DA.

Here's the thing - if they were doing well they didn't stop doing well. You again just highlighted a difference where you have the option to buff them with Bobby. Nothing happened to your terminators. You just have powerfist envy.

one of the most powerful stratagems in the army...for free...on a unit that can't even use the stratagem to begin with. It's so obvious it will be nerfed instantly so I am not even going to humor DA players with the change. They are getting played and it wont last. How pathetic we know something will be insta nerfed before it is even released.

It won't get nerfed, because it isn't wildly different than what DG brings to the table.

**Xenomancers**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

At some point you have to accept that some chapters use different units to various efficacies.

Why would you take dreadnoughts outside of IH? They get a 6+++, can punt one to a character, and give it 4++ and -1 to wound. They can also heal them better than anyone else. But you still see dreads, because they offer something else to whatever the list is trying to accomplish. Same thing with RG and Eliminators. Or Salamanders and Eradicators.

And exactly how much more or less efficiently do other chapters use Deathwing Terminators?

Again, Deathwing Terminators are a separate unit from Terminators, Dark Angels can use either, but only Dark Angels can use the former. Deathwing Terminators are obviously superior, but cost the same price. They pay nothing for the Inner Circle ability. How does that make sense? Blightlords cost more than Chaos Terminators because of Disgustingly Resilient, their additional wound, and 4++, which makes sense. I'm not arguing about faction abilities, I'm arguing about Deathwing Terminators vs standard Terminators.

Well yeah...what is the value of the thing? Ob sec and max 4+ to wound on a t4 model which has the effect of being t9 and t8 sometimes? Easily 6+ ppm.

**Daedalus81**

Gadzilla666 wrote:

And exactly how much more or less efficiently do other chapters use Deathwing Terminators?

Again, Deathwing Terminators are a separate unit from Terminators, Dark Angels can use either, but only Dark Angels can use the former. Deathwing Terminators are obviously superior, but cost the same price. They pay nothing for the Inner Circle ability. How does that make sense? Blightlords cost more than Chaos Terminators because of Disgustingly Resilient, their additional wound, and 4++, which makes sense. I'm not arguing about faction abilities, I'm arguing about Deathwing Terminators vs standard Terminators.

To clear up some confusion -- all of the Terminator datasheets in Codex : SM are allowed to be Deathwing. "Deathwing Terminators" datasheet is exactly the same as "Terminators" before Chapter stuff except they can take Watcher in the Dark.

Deathwing Knights @ 47PPM are the Deathshroud/Blightlord equivalent and are melee only. Blightlords (40PPM) aren't simply being terminators at T5 and -1D. They're also tossing out a -1T aura or did we all suddenly forget? Just because DA are the foil to DG doesn't make them not work everywhere else.

They pay "nothing" for the Inner Circle ability except that they're required to have 3 units to be Obsec. Additionally, they can't have a Chief Apothecary in Deathwing or Ravenwing. They're stuck with their DW/RW Apoths which are +25 points over the rest of SM. They can't have Impulsors without a second detachment and they pay extra for any other transport so your DW BGV are hoofing it. Want Inner Circle on your Captain and LT? +35. Don't want to pay that? Fine then you need two other HQs to fill the detachment.

This isn't really a cut and dry exercise. I'm sure someone will surprise me with a clever list, but there are tangible downsides.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xenomancers wrote:
Well yeah...what is the value of the thing? Ob sec and max 4+ to wound on a t4 model which has the effect of being t9 and t8 sometimes? Easily 6+ ppm.

I look forward to any changes to poison weapons in the new DE book.

**JNAProductions**

bullyboy wrote:
To get obsec DW terminators you need a character and 3 Elite choices with Inner Circle keyword. You will then probably have a second detachment that will cost you command points (Patrol probably, maybe an outrider). DA strats are pretty damn pricey, so you'll chew through them easy enough.

People just need to calm the f down.

You know, not all armies need CP to be good and flavorful. For some, it's the cherry on top of already kickass stuff.

**Voss**

bullyboy wrote:
To get obsec DW terminators you need a character and 3 Elite choices with Inner Circle keyword. You will then probably have a second detachment that will cost you command points (Patrol probably, maybe an outrider). DA strats are pretty damn pricey, so you'll chew through them easy enough.

People just need to calm the f down.

Yes. If you want bring a Deathwing army you're going to bring DW characters and units. I'm not sure where you're going with this? There isn't any cost to bringing the things you were going to bring anyway, and now there's more things that can qualify as Deathwing. And even more benefits for doing so.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Not Online!!! wrote:
Ordana wrote:
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
How should it be the same price as a standard terminator?

It should be the same price as standard Terminators for the same reason my chapter's Intercessors should be the same price as standard Intercessors or my Rusted Claw Atalan Jackals should be the same price as standard Jackals.
Or, and this may shock you. Faction buffs should not be free, at all.

GW should have learned this from the disaster that was 7th. Free rules as bad and lead to massive inbalance.
Its effects are limited for most Xenos because you get 1 small rule, but even there we saw it with Alaitoc Eldar costing the same as Biel-tan despite getting a very powerful -1 to hit.
Or how about Ynnarri somehow being the same points as base Eldar/Dark Eldar. Their refusal to change the points for individual factions lead first to the destruction of a bunch of units by points nerfs for being in a different army and then destroyed the different army when it wasn't enough.

Space Marines just make it more apparent because Dark Angels don't get a different chapter trait, 1 WL trait and 1 relic but an entire codex worth of different gak.

Rules should not be free.
Not Inner Circle, not Super doctrines, not your custom doctrines and not every other armies sub-faction rule.

THIS. SO . MUCH.

And gw has rules writers / had rules writers that know this. Infact they even knew that warlord traits with vast effects should have a pts cost.

There's still and was still 0 reason as to why a CSM should cost the same for AL and WB...

And as of now have seen not one fix to that. (even though one could easily state AL detachment +2 pts / model infantry + x per tank etc)
but no, nothing happened.

You could absolutely have an Alpha Legion Marine and Word Bearers Marinr cost the same if they both have a Legion rule that makes use of their abilities and wargear. You can see thus sorta getting closer with some of the core Marine Chapter abilities, albeit with some standout ones just not working (yeah, we know TH/SS Terminators won't get anything from Ultramarines but at least your gunslinging Vanguard are slightly happier!)

The problem is that GW thinks -1 to hit at >12" and rerolling morale are equivalent abilities.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JNAProductions wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
To get obsec DW terminators you need a character and 3 Elite choices with Inner Circle keyword. You will then probably have a second detachment that will cost you command points (Patrol probably, maybe an outrider). DA strats are pretty damn pricey, so you'll chew through them easy enough.

People just need to calm the f down.
You know, not all armies need CP to be good and flavorful. For some, it's the cherry on top of already kickass stuff.

Imahine saying "oh you need a second detachment to get some stuff cheaper" was ACTUALLY a downside LOL

**Xenomancers**

Realistically 2 detachments is what a lot of armies are running anyways. Plus you could easily run end entire army in that first detachment. Right?

3x Max terms units is nearly 1500 point.

Why would you take anything else? Am I missing something?

3x 10 man terms with plamacannons (can combat squad) - Master of the deathwing. 10x heavy intercessors...GFG.

**Daedalus81**

JNAProductions wrote:
You know, not all armies need CP to be good and flavorful. For some, it's the cherry on top of already kickass stuff.

A bunch of slow terminators doesn't stretch too far after they hit the table - it's a similar problem to using DG. Necron warriors give zero gaks about what you hit them with. Lets say you have 6 PF DW termies in melee. 8 die and 3 pop back up. Can't fail morale. Then you're killing 3 a turn after that- the in-melee shooting MIGHT kill one. If you don't pass LD you can't fall back.

What good are terminators if they can't get through an equal cost unit or prevent it from scoring over them even if they're obsec?

**Xenomancers**

Daedalus81 wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
You know, not all armies need CP to be good and flavorful. For some, it's the cherry on top of already kickass stuff.

A bunch of slow terminators doesn't stretch too far after they hit the table - it's a similar problem to using DG. Necron warriors give zero gaks about what you hit them with. Lets say you have 6 PF DW termies in melee. 8 die and 3 pop back up. Can't fail morale. Then you're killing 3 a turn after that- the in-melee shooting MIGHT kill one. If you don't pass LD you can't fall back.

What good are terminators if they can't get through an equal cost unit or prevent it from scoring over them even if they're obsec?

Are you arguing that all terminators should just have permanent transhuman...because that is what it looks like...and actually I'll take it.

**bullyboy**

How 'bout all you armchair QBs go play some Dark Angels over the next month, then come back and tell us how "broken" they are. We certainly know you weren't playing them before. If this turns out to be IH 2.0, sure I can accept a few nerfs, but we are nowhere near that point yet. As it stands right now, it's a lot of vocal minorities throwing their toys out of the pram without ever playing a game as Dark Angels. When I see a pure Deathwing army win a tournament (or multiple), I'll listen to how Inner Circle needs to be nerfed.
i also don't sit here crying for BAs to have their +1 to Wound roll nerfed or change the points of their units, and that is a crazy buff for the army when it comes to effect on the table. I accept that it's their thing and play accordingly.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically 2 detachments is what a lot of armies are running anyways. Plus you could easily run end entire army in that first detachment. Right?

3x Max terms units is nearly 1500 point.

Why would you take anything else? Am I missing something?

3x 10 man terms with plamacannons (can combat squad) - Master of the deathwing. 10x heavy intercessors...GFG.

Eh I know you can Combat squad but running min units to get 20 or so seems sufficient to me. The extra attack from the Sarge if you're planning on one TH/SS for tanking seems worth it to me.

**bullyboy**

Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically 2 detachments is what a lot of armies are running anyways. Plus you could easily run end entire army in that first detachment. Right?

3x Max terms units is nearly 1500 point.

Why would you take anything else? Am I missing something?

3x 10 man terms with plamacannons (can combat squad) - Master of the deathwing. 10x heavy intercessors...GFG.

the 10 heavy intercessors just lost you Obsec on those terms

**Slayer-Fan123**

bullyboy wrote:
How 'bout all you armchair QBs go play some Dark Angels over the next month, then come back and tell us how "broken" they are. We certainly know you weren't playing them before. If this turns out to be IH 2.0, sure I can accept a few nerfs, but we are nowhere near that point yet. As it stands right now, it's a lot of vocal minorities throwing their toys out of the pram without ever playing a game as Dark Angels. When I see a pure Deathwing army win a tournament (or multiple), I'll listen to how Inner Circle needs to be nerfed.
i also don't sit here crying for BAs to have their +1 to Wound roll nerfed or change the points of their units, and that is a crazy buff for the army when it comes to effect on the table. I accept that it's their thing and play accordingly.

Sounds like a super reasonable post from someone that made their title having something to do with Deathwing.

Also the "armchair" QBs manage to catch the broken gak GW conveniently forgets about from just leaks alone.

**Galas**

How is terminators having transhuman for being DA different to terminators having +1 to charge and advance rolls and +1 to wound for being BA?

What other bonus do they gain for being Dark Angels? Obsect if you build your army in a specific way that forces you to go hard on deathwing. That seems a fair trade. +1 to hit if they don't move (and deathwing knights allready hit on 2+)... in an edition where that equals to losing, hmmm... and reroll wounds in turn 3 vs specific targets vs just +1 attack for the BA ones.

I mean... Deathwing have had this stuff since the DA index for 9th and... nobody used them? And with the codex they have nerfed some of the combos that they had there? So how are they soo powerfull now?

How are DA the best book when they aren't even the best space marines? What they will try to do (Fast moving meele armies) BA and WS do much better, for example.

**bullyboy**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
How 'bout all you armchair QBs go play some Dark Angels over the next month, then come back and tell us how "broken" they are. We certainly know you weren't playing them before. If this turns out to be IH 2.0, sure I can accept a few nerfs, but we are nowhere near that point yet. As it stands right now, it's a lot of vocal minorities throwing their toys out of the pram without ever playing a game as Dark Angels. When I see a pure Deathwing army win a tournament (or multiple), I'll listen to how Inner Circle needs to be nerfed.
i also don't sit here crying for BAs to have their +1 to Wound roll nerfed or change the points of their units, and that is a crazy buff for the army when it comes to effect on the table. I accept that it's their thing and play accordingly.

Sounds like a super reasonable post from someone that made their title having something to do with Deathwing.

Also the "armchair" QBs manage to catch the broken gak GW conveniently forgets about from just leaks alone.

yep, I've been playing DAs since day one, but if you've observed on this forum before, I also play Raven Guard, Deathwatch, Harlequins, Craftworld, Iron Warriors and soon Sisters. But yeah, I just want DA to be powerful and nothing else.

On paper it looks solid, but it ain't cheap. Deathwing armies will be tiny and people will exploit this weakness like others do.

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically 2 detachments is what a lot of armies are running anyways. Plus you could easily run end entire army in that first detachment. Right?

3x Max terms units is nearly 1500 point.

Why would you take anything else? Am I missing something?

3x 10 man terms with plamacannons (can combat squad) - Master of the deathwing. 10x heavy intercessors...GFG.

Eh I know you can Combat squad but running min units to get 20 or so seems sufficient to me. The extra attack from the Sarge if you're planning on one TH/SS for tanking seems worth it to me.

Yeah that is a good point. I was really just thinking how to max out a detachment all with loaded special rules. Heck...do DA dreads get inner circle?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

bullyboy wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically 2 detachments is what a lot of armies are running anyways. Plus you could easily run end entire army in that first detachment. Right?

3x Max terms units is nearly 1500 point.

Why would you take anything else? Am I missing something?

3x 10 man terms with plamacannons (can combat squad) - Master of the deathwing. 10x heavy intercessors...GFG.

the 10 heavy intercessors just lost you Obsec on those terms

Everything has to be inner circle? Humm. Can dreads get it? what all can get it?

**Gadzilla666**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

And exactly how much more or less efficiently do other chapters use Deathwing Terminators?

Again, Deathwing Terminators are a separate unit from Terminators, Dark Angels can use either, but only Dark Angels can use the former. Deathwing Terminators are obviously superior, but cost the same price. They pay nothing for the Inner Circle ability. How does that make sense? Blightlords cost more than Chaos Terminators because of Disgustingly Resilient, their additional wound, and 4++, which makes sense. I'm not arguing about faction abilities, I'm arguing about Deathwing Terminators vs standard Terminators.

To clear up some confusion -- all of the Terminator datasheets in Codex : SM are allowed to be Deathwing. "Deathwing Terminators" datasheet is exactly the same as "Terminators" before Chapter stuff except they can take Watcher in the Dark.

Deathwing Knights @ 47PPM are the Deathshroud/Blightlord equivalent and are melee only. Blightlords (40PPM) aren't simply being terminators at T5 and -1D. They're also tossing out a -1T aura or did we all suddenly forget? Just because DA are the foil to DG doesn't make them not work everywhere else.

They pay "nothing" for the Inner Circle ability except that they're required to have 3 units to be Obsec. Additionally, they can't have a Chief Apothecary in Deathwing or Ravenwing. They're stuck with their DW/RW Apoths which are +25 points over the rest of SM. They can't have Impulsors without a second detachment and they pay extra for any other transport so your DW BGV are hoofing it. Want Inner Circle on your Captain and LT? +35. Don't want to pay that? Fine then you need two other HQs to fill the detachment.

This isn't really a cut and dry exercise. I'm sure someone will surprise me with a clever list, but there are tangible downsides.

Do Terminator Assault Squads, Terminator Squads, and Relic Terminator Squads also gain the Inner Circle keyword? If so, why are they all specifically called out in the 1st Company rule, along with Deathwing Terminators (but not DWKs)? Why do Deathwing Terminators have their own entry in the MFM document? If they all gain the Inner Circle keyword, then that complicates things. But if only Deathwing Terminators and DWKs have it, then their is no reason that Deathwing Terminators should be priced the same as standard Terminators. That's all I'm arguing. I'm not saying that Dark Angels are OP, or that their Terminators gaining obsec is an issue, as it involves jumping through specific hoops to gain that bonus, as that in itself is a price.

**Daedalus81**

Xenomancers wrote:
Are you arguing that all terminators should just have permanent transhuman...because that is what it looks like...and actually I'll take it.

No, I'm telling you having obsec doesn't make them good at obsec and being durable doesn't make them good at killing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Do Terminator Assault Squads, Terminator Squads, and Relic Terminator Squads also gain the Inner Circle keyword? If so, why are they all specifically called out in the 1st Company rule, along with Deathwing Terminators (but not DWKs)? Why do Deathwing Terminators have their own entry in the MFM document? If they all gain the Inner Circle keyword, then that complicates things. But if only Deathwing Terminators and DWKs have it, then their is no reason that Deathwing Terminators should be priced the same as standard Terminators. That's all I'm arguing. I'm not saying that Dark Angels are OP, or that their Terminators gaining obsec is an issue, as it involves jumping through specific hoops to gain that bonus, as that in itself is a price.

Yea, anything with the Deathwing keyword gains Inner Circle. The basic logic is any terminator model plus some characters have DW on the datasheet. Bikes and bike characters can have RW. Like so:

Then this little jobby applies the benefit.

You can take anything in the SM book, but things like Plasma Inceptors would break RW/DW.

**Gadzilla666**

And that makes the matter more complicated. Damn it gw.

**bullyboy**

Dreadnoughts can get Inner Circle (among a few other units) but pay an upgrade to do so. So to get a Deathwing Vanguard that is well rounded, you may have to spend some additional points after all.