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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is what happens when you go the Supplement/separate codex route for everything instead of consolidation. Anyone supporting the former had this coming to them and I have little sympathy at this point.
I don't see how it makes any difference. It's the same amount of books regardless of how you do it, except this way you don't have 4-5 books filled with 100 duplicate data sheets.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Tycho wrote:

Don't worry Daed ... It starts to pass once you realize about a third of the book is just redundant units that do the same thing as other, more efficient units, and how wasted a lot of the entries actually are. That is, UNLESS you played 'crons in 8th. In which case, you'll probably remember this book as the greatest thing EVER, and I don't think anyone would hold it against you ...


Yea, I see redundancies, but I don't mind that so much, because I can run in the style I like most. Like Skorpekhs vs Ophydians - same unit concept, but one is faster, causes more hits, and deepstrikes while the other is much more durable. The DDA and Doomstalker do the same dance. The DDA moves faster, is more durable (slightly), and has more range. Is that a worthy distinction? I don't know, but I don't think it necessarily hurts to have the option.

Or I could just be a dumb dumb. Ignorance is bliss.

   
Made in us
Drop Trooper with Demo Charge





Tycho wrote:


I stand by my initial analysis that, in fairly short order, the 'Cron 'Dex will be revealed to be somewhere near the bottom-middle tier.



I'm kind of curious as to why you think that. Pre-DG-Codex, Necrons have the second highest reported win percentage rate (behind only Harlequins), while also reporting a massive number of games, so the statistics are more reliable. As I see it, Necrons will probably be the best anti-Death Guard army as well. So far, of course.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





No idea what I missed but how did this become a Necron argument? Also they were broken in 7th sooo many matches I witnessed rage quits from the person faceing them.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
This is what happens when you go the Supplement/separate codex route for everything instead of consolidation. Anyone supporting the former had this coming to them and I have little sympathy at this point.
I don't see how it makes any difference. It's the same amount of books regardless of how you do it, except this way you don't have 4-5 books filled with 100 duplicate data sheets.

Piling up rules on top of rules does this sorta thing in case you forgot what happened in 6th or 7th. Or 8th, for that matter.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

I'm definitely envious of their psi discipline, as it got 5/6 interesting spells on it, including one of the few viable smite spells in existence.

Watching and reading through reviews left the impression that DA are very strong indeed.

On the other hand, we can see them losing big against Necrons in 2 turns (Tabletop Titans game on Youtube).

They are definitely not point and click strong like Iron Hands were. You can easily lose units or have them not doing anything useful. Setting them on the board and rolling dice is not enough.

Let's see what tournament players can come up with.

   
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Or I could just be a dumb dumb. Ignorance is bliss.


Ha - it's much more complex than that, but I won't spoil for you if you're enjoying it. In a nurtshell, it's got a lot of the same issues as the 6th ed CSM book (It's WAY better - it's not a bad book - I think it's just got a ceiling that's going to be tough to break).

I'm kind of curious as to why you think that. Pre-DG-Codex, Necrons have the second highest reported win percentage rate (behind only Harlequins), while also reporting a massive number of games, so the statistics are more reliable. As I see it, Necrons will probably be the best anti-Death Guard army as well. So far, of course.


Not sure how much stock I put in the power level of a 9th ed book if the main metric is beating up on armies that don't have 9th ed books, but I digress - The issue (I suspect - again just "reading the tea leaves" so I could be way off) is that ultimately, the amount of redundancy, the inevitable nerfs to the Nightbringer, the fact that Destroyer cults were somewhat mis-managed, and the massive amounts of restrictions 'Crons have that other books don't will hold them back. Other books so far have gotten "If you have A, you cannot also have B", or "To have two of B, you must have at least one of A". Heck, the marines literally get a bunch of stuff just for being marines (both Imperial and DG). For Crons this reads more like "If you have A, than you cannot have B,C,D, but you gain E, as long as Y is alive, but not if G, unless it's Tuesday ..." They're in a unique spot to play marines, but once we have a true 9th meta, I expect them to drop a bit.

They are definitely not point and click strong like Iron Hands were. You can easily lose units or have them not doing anything useful. Setting them on the board and rolling dice is not enough.


Agreed. They are strong but NOT IH OP. Heh - IHOP. So far, almost every book that's come out has had people saying "OP!", and pending more games w/DG, so far, no books have actually been "OP" so I think they're actually doing a better job. There are still some issues, but over-all, better than in previous editions.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in it
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Sesto San Giovanni, Italy

I honestly prefer an army more difficult to manage. DA seems so, aside from a few quirks (Inner Circle and Jinks) that are brain-dead to use.
However, since the issue with Terminator delivery, Bikes durability etc are still there, I'm hopeful the book won't be too oppressive.

I haven't seen a the game on YouTube... Did they rolled hot/bad or there is something tactically worth to see there?

I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

Feel free to have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA8FjcSEJMg

Two things that stood out for me:

1. Moving the bikes forward into the middle left them exposed to an early charge which they did not survive.

2. Terminators did not have a good spot to deepstrike to. They ended up in the DA player's deployment zone without the means to change the outcome of the game.

Necron shooting and melee is very solid.

   
Made in fr
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'






a_typical_hero wrote:
Feel free to have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA8FjcSEJMg

Two things that stood out for me:

1. Moving the bikes forward into the middle left them exposed to an early charge which they did not survive.

2. Terminators did not have a good spot to deepstrike to. They ended up in the DA player's deployment zone without the means to change the outcome of the game.

Necron shooting and melee is very solid.


So basically DA dude played like a noob. Which I also do whenever I try a new army, so I am not criticizing. Just saying no one can say based on such bad decisions if the stuff seems OP or not

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/01 21:15:23


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
ccs wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
It is hard to parse everything they are and are not allowed to have since there is no easy lookup and I'm not well versed on all the listings from the SM book.


And yet despite your lack of knowledge you'll make a post concerning DA being overpowered...


Yea...like...a discussion post...on like...a forum...where I ask people for input...
Weird.


I'm siding with Daed on this one. I will readily point out his posts when I disagree with them, but this is spot on and more importantly, its a discussion post rather than a "The sky is falling" post. lets reel that in a bit shall we?

Karol wrote:
Maybe people will play different armies. That would be kind of a cool.

Continuing with the positive trend, YAY! Everyone, take a moment to cheer on or at least appreciate Karol here. A full post without talking nonsense, nor did he compare anything to a private polish sports school. Have an exalt for your hard work.

Now, onto the actual topic, specifically the rules layering. We are rather quickly getting to a bloat point with 40k, especially with space marines. they have special rules on top of special rules which are based on special rules from special rules. When you have to consult a graph to figure out what your base stats are based on what turn it is and what you are doing...we have a problem

Space Marines now all have +1 wound, +1 attack, morale still doesn't really bother them, they have doctrines, super doctrines, chapter tactics, auras, almost everything is core etc etc etc. They have access to more stratagems, relics, psyker powers than any other 2 factions combined. if GW doesn't start scaling back a bit on the SM bloat than don't be overly shocked if 9th turns into a replica of 6th edition where the entire edition lasted less than 2 years.

Probably the worst part from this is that from the limited release of xenos factions, we aren't seeing that level of rules being shared equally. Necrons really didn't get many new rules, rather they got re-worked rules that benefited them in a lot of areas and were negative in others.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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IMO the current level of Marines is unsustainable. I know they sell, but I seriously doubt firstborn are selling that well anymore, and the simple logistics of keeping that many different models in production for an army that does not need them means GW is going to need to do something.

And in regards to non-marines getting such comparatively little support and why it is an issue; non-marines likely drive marine sales. Players (justifiably) get bored with the game rather quickly if almost all of their matches are against other marines. Even if they sell fewer kits, xeno armies indirectly drive marine sales by being the 'npcs' for them to fight. Granted this is a personal theory but I have a hard time imagining it not being a factor.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/01 21:44:28


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 addnid wrote:
a_typical_hero wrote:
Feel free to have a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA8FjcSEJMg

Two things that stood out for me:

1. Moving the bikes forward into the middle left them exposed to an early charge which they did not survive.

2. Terminators did not have a good spot to deepstrike to. They ended up in the DA player's deployment zone without the means to change the outcome of the game.

Necron shooting and melee is very solid.


So basically DA dude played like a noob. Which I also do whenever I try a new army, so I am not criticizing. Just saying no one can say based on such bad decisions if the stuff seems OP or not


I remember when 8th dropped and people were citing the miniwargaming battle report as evidence that Marines were trash and Orkz were OP. The Ultrasmurf brought 16 models total; a character, 3 CC centurions, a dread with a Multi-melta, 2 scout squads and a Vindicator Tank. The Ork brought like 60 boyz, 6 war bikes a painboy and old Ghaz. The smurf charged into CC against the Ork and surprising nobody who has ever played the game against Orkz, he lost.

You can't use a bad report as evidence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.


Going to be putting this in my signature line as a reminder to everyone

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/01 21:48:40


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut



Bamberg / Erlangen

 addnid wrote:
So basically DA dude played like a noob. Which I also do whenever I try a new army, so I am not criticizing. Just saying no one can say based on such bad decisions if the stuff seems OP or not


Not having a good point to deepstrike to is less the DA player's fault, and more the Necron player countering the ability very well. Overextending the bikes shows that the +3" movement during Devastor doctrine has to be applied carefully. If you just rush forward - maybe to secure objectives - it leaves you wide open for a (counter) charge. And then your 4++ Jink save does nothing.

Which is as I said -> No point and click army like Iron Hands were.

SemperMortis wrote:
You can't use a bad report as evidence.


Guys, I never said that DA are weak based on that single batrep. I'm sure they have tools to compete well in this edition. They are simply not autopiloting themselves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/01 21:55:16


   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
IMO the current level of Marines is unsustainable. I know they sell, but I seriously doubt firstborn are selling that well anymore, and the simple logistics of keeping that many different models in production for an army that does not need them means GW is going to need to do something.
Completely agree that the current level is unsustainable, but I also think that they already have done something: Primaris. They are the replacement for the old Marines.

But, as I've been saying since Primaris first appeared, you can't just get rid of the First Born overnight. They have too long a legacy to just shift in one edition (or even two). That's why getting rid of them is a long-term plan. That's why First Born have W2 to match their Primaris brethren. It blurs the lines between the two distinct miniature ranges.

Then, maybe the next time the Marines get a new book (or even the one after that, assuming we get another Marine book for 9th), they can very easily say something like "To help with new players, we are making the difficult choice to remove a number of legacy miniatures from the Space Marine line... blah blah blah...", and off they go to Legends, leaving Primaris as the only Marines (and maybe Terminators).


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
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delete

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/01 22:00:38


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
IMO the current level of Marines is unsustainable. I know they sell, but I seriously doubt firstborn are selling that well anymore, and the simple logistics of keeping that many different models in production for an army that does not need them means GW is going to need to do something.
Completely agree that the current level is unsustainable, but I also think that they already have done something: Primaris. They are the replacement for the old Marines.

But, as I've been saying since Primaris first appeared, you can't just get rid of the First Born overnight. They have too long a legacy to just shift in one edition (or even two). That's why getting rid of them is a long-term plan. That's why First Born have W2 to match their Primaris brethren. It blurs the lines between the two distinct miniature ranges.

Then, maybe the next time the Marines get a new book (or even the one after that, assuming we get another Marine book for 9th), they can very easily say something like "To help with new players, we are making the difficult choice to remove a number of legacy miniatures from the Space Marine line... blah blah blah...", and off they go to Legends, leaving Primaris as the only Marines (and maybe Terminators).

We don't see it now because of Covid but if people could freely play at their local clubs they would be dying out as no one wants to play marine vs marine for the 30th time in a row and most xenos have shelved their armies because they can't compete with 9th edition codexes.

Primaris don't solve that issue.
   
Made in ca
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British Columbia

 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.

And now roll back all the free bolted on passive buffs you enjoy and you begin to see where all the anti Loyalist anger is coming from.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Ordana wrote:
We don't see it now because of Covid but if people could freely play at their local clubs they would be dying out as no one wants to play marine vs marine for the 30th time in a row and most xenos have shelved their armies because they can't compete with 9th edition codexes.

Primaris don't solve that issue.
I'm not sure I buy that. Marines have always been the most popular army in 40k (and GW's most popular product). Nothing has changed in that regard, COVID or no COVID, and clubs have been playing Marine v Marines for decades.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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a_typical_hero wrote:
I'm definitely envious of their psi discipline, as it got 5/6 interesting spells on it, including one of the few viable smite spells in existence.

Watching and reading through reviews left the impression that DA are very strong indeed.

On the other hand, we can see them losing big against Necrons in 2 turns (Tabletop Titans game on Youtube).

They are definitely not point and click strong like Iron Hands were. You can easily lose units or have them not doing anything useful. Setting them on the board and rolling dice is not enough.


To be fair, even DA players are saying that report is not an accurate representation of the army as Adrian completely misplayed it. FWIW those same DA players are also saying the Codex is the strongest 9th book so far.

However, yes, it is certainly not IH levels of busted, but it is leaning a bit too heavily on the 8.5 design methodology which I felt like GW had managed to move away from a little bit with some of the more recent marine books. Not this one it seems.

Nazi punks feth off 
   
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You cannot balance a unit available to multiple factions but given WILDLY superior rules ti all the other subfactions.

Like, inner circle and all the things it gives you is fething bonkers. Obsec, the 4+ to wound, reroll wounds to high value targets. Are you kidding? Like Blood angels get about one of these (oh, inner circle is fun in that a blood angel player loses a huge part of their chapter tactic for it. Always fun to have an army special rule literally invalidate another army's rule).


A deathwing army is just flat superior to the army I play in its entirety. Like, they have the same identity, but deathwing just do it better. And that's just a small section of the dark angel's full roster.

God dammit GW, figure out your damn rules. When you stack too many buffs on a unit multiple factions use, it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to balance through points and you have to start the long process of walking that gak back through erratas to the rules themselves.
   
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stratigo wrote:
You cannot balance a unit available to multiple factions but given WILDLY superior rules ti all the other subfactions...


Sure you can. Check the SM Codex in the oldhammer rules linked in my sig. You give the unit WILDLY superior rules as a costed upgrade.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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British Columbia

stratigo wrote:
You cannot balance a unit available to multiple factions but given WILDLY superior rules ti all the other subfactions.

Like, inner circle and all the things it gives you is fething bonkers. Obsec, the 4+ to wound, reroll wounds to high value targets. Are you kidding? Like Blood angels get about one of these (oh, inner circle is fun in that a blood angel player loses a huge part of their chapter tactic for it. Always fun to have an army special rule literally invalidate another army's rule).


A deathwing army is just flat superior to the army I play in its entirety. Like, they have the same identity, but deathwing just do it better. And that's just a small section of the dark angel's full roster.

God dammit GW, figure out your damn rules. When you stack too many buffs on a unit multiple factions use, it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to balance through points and you have to start the long process of walking that gak back through erratas to the rules themselves.

And we're coming up on 2 years since GW decided the entirety of the passive buffs my army gets can remain reroll failed morale.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
We don't see it now because of Covid but if people could freely play at their local clubs they would be dying out as no one wants to play marine vs marine for the 30th time in a row and most xenos have shelved their armies because they can't compete with 9th edition codexes.

Primaris don't solve that issue.
I'm not sure I buy that. Marines have always been the most popular army in 40k (and GW's most popular product). Nothing has changed in that regard, COVID or no COVID, and clubs have been playing Marine v Marines for decades.


One of the reasons I got out of marines, yeah.

Albeit I don't like playing custards into marines either. Maybe I'll pick up that harley army that has been tempting me for a few years to be able to play an npc race into marine pileup.
   
Made in us
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stratigo wrote:
You cannot balance a unit available to multiple factions but given WILDLY superior rules ti all the other subfactions.

Like, inner circle and all the things it gives you is fething bonkers. Obsec, the 4+ to wound, reroll wounds to high value targets. Are you kidding? Like Blood angels get about one of these (oh, inner circle is fun in that a blood angel player loses a huge part of their chapter tactic for it. Always fun to have an army special rule literally invalidate another army's rule).


A deathwing army is just flat superior to the army I play in its entirety. Like, they have the same identity, but deathwing just do it better. And that's just a small section of the dark angel's full roster.

God dammit GW, figure out your damn rules. When you stack too many buffs on a unit multiple factions use, it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to balance through points and you have to start the long process of walking that gak back through erratas to the rules themselves.

Eh I'd kinda discount the Assault Doctrine one, but everything else is silly I concur.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.


Terminators don't even synergize with UM in any good way and I doubt you want to take 3 units of them. DA have some potential list building challenges that will be interesting to see how they take shape.
   
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 Ordana wrote:
We don't see it now because of Covid but if people could freely play at their local clubs they would be dying out as no one wants to play marine vs marine for the 30th time in a row and most xenos have shelved their armies because they can't compete with 9th edition codexes.

Primaris don't solve that issue.


Maybe it doesn't bother me as I am the sort of person that likes historical games which typically have far less variation in units and weapons either just Firstborn or Primaris marines, but I don't think marine vs. marine is as bad as you make it out to be. It gets brought up all the time here on Dakka that space marines are stealing other factions 'thing' as well as marines being super stocked for choices in both units, loadouts and chapter rules. And a player can't fit everything into 2000pts. At very least, marine vs. marine should be far more balanced as it is literally the same pool of units for a player to construct their army list.

The only way I could foresee it becoming boring is if said club focuses on optimizing army lists. Which naturally are going to weed out large chunks of the codex as their meta develops. That meta developing much faster both as it is dealing with a single codex and a number of supplements, as well as, every game further refining things until the group has basically solved 40k among themselves. The bigger the club, the faster the refining process goes. That's largely the direction of all optimized play though. It usually just takes longer since there is a larger pool of options to develop the meta against with games not processing those options as efficiently. Note: that doesn't necessarily mean said group solved 40k, just that within their group it is de facto solved as play patterns refine themselves within the group that may or may not be the most optimal but are constantly used because they are perceived as most optimal within said group with no outside pressure to test it anymore.

As for Xenos not competing, I don't think that is true at all. Even in highly optimized (what many call competitive) play there is plenty of evidence that a number of Xenos factions can compete. For clubs interested in competition, they don't have to play highly optimized lists attempting and can attempt to build army lists that provide a challenge/competition during a game. If it is understood that 40k isn't well-balanced, why would so call competitive player pretend that a 2000pt Tau army is equivalent to a 2000pt Blood Angels one. I would think a good, competitive Blood Angels player could construct or reduce points of their list to provide a challenging game vs. a 2000pt Tau army.

Some players might balk at the idea of doing GW's job for them. However, this how 40k has been for like 30 years, and standing with our backs to the future, it looks like it will be the case 30 more years into the future. So curse the darkness or light a candle.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
...So curse the darkness or light a candle.

Or yell at the landlord until he fixes the wiring so its stops shorting out the lights in the hallway whenever he replaces an appliance.
(edit for better analogy)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/02 04:35:54


 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.


Terminators don't even synergize with UM in any good way and I doubt you want to take 3 units of them. DA have some potential list building challenges that will be interesting to see how they take shape.

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?
   
 
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