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Ice_can wrote: Just a quick question for those who know DA better but do your named charictors have the correct keywords to be added to wither a deathwing or ravenwing army without stopping them gaining their obsec non troops?
I'm asking as I think there is definataly potential for a vanguard outrider wing combo force that certainly feels more competitive than friendly.
Yeah Belial for DW and Sammael for RW. They were some of the best DA units in 8th, but IDK about their datasheets for 9th.
I was more thinking Lazerous with his 5+ FNP on some obsec terminators could be a nasty combo.
Take 1 stormshield mook and they have to get through a 2+, +1 save or a 4++, with a 50/50 wound roll and a 5+ FNP. And add a drakshroud in your ravenwing outrider for a -1 to hit aura cheese tastic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 09:21:42
Ice_can wrote: Just a quick question for those who know DA better but do your named charictors have the correct keywords to be added to wither a deathwing or ravenwing army without stopping them gaining their obsec non troops?
I'm asking as I think there is definataly potential for a vanguard outrider wing combo force that certainly feels more competitive than friendly.
Yeah Belial for DW and Sammael for RW. They were some of the best DA units in 8th, but IDK about their datasheets for 9th.
I was more thinking Lazerous with his 5+ FNP on some obsec terminators could be a nasty combo.
He is greenwing so he would break obsec I am guessing.
Ice_can wrote: Just a quick question for those who know DA better but do your named charictors have the correct keywords to be added to wither a deathwing or ravenwing army without stopping them gaining their obsec non troops?
I'm asking as I think there is definataly potential for a vanguard outrider wing combo force that certainly feels more competitive than friendly.
Yeah Belial for DW and Sammael for RW. They were some of the best DA units in 8th, but IDK about their datasheets for 9th.
I was more thinking Lazerous with his 5+ FNP on some obsec terminators could be a nasty combo.
He is greenwing so he would break obsec I am guessing.
Oh well looks like its only the OG non primarichad charictors that get the deathwing keyword then I was wondering if it was a battlescribe issue.
Well that certaibly opens up Ezekiel as an auto include IMHO.
Then do you want Azreil for that +2CP for 11CP with a ravenwing outrider and Dethwing vanguard or Asmodai. For only 9CP.
Ice_can wrote: Just a quick question for those who know DA better but do your named charictors have the correct keywords to be added to wither a deathwing or ravenwing army without stopping them gaining their obsec non troops?
I'm asking as I think there is definataly potential for a vanguard outrider wing combo force that certainly feels more competitive than friendly.
Yeah Belial for DW and Sammael for RW. They were some of the best DA units in 8th, but IDK about their datasheets for 9th.
I was more thinking Lazerous with his 5+ FNP on some obsec terminators could be a nasty combo.
He is greenwing so he would break obsec I am guessing.
Oh well looks like its only the OG non primarichad charictors that get the deathwing keyword then I was wondering if it was a battlescribe issue.
Well that certaibly opens up Ezekiel as an auto include IMHO.
Then do you want Azreil for that +2CP for 11CP with a ravenwing outrider and Dethwing vanguard or Asmodai. For only 9CP.
Lazarus is only 5+ FNP for mortal wounds I’d rather take an apothecary and another HQ
If they haven't changed it everyone has Inner Circle, none except Sammael and the Talonmaster have Ravenwing and only Belial (and maybe Azrael?) have Deathwing... Plus the Elite characters (ex command squad).
About the 3+ to wound... if was written this way no weapon except the Lascannon (or applying some bonuses to wound) will be impacted by it right? What S9+ weapons of any significance are in the game (aside from FW)?
Run some math, and you will see that composing hit, wound, armour and damage passing from a 16% of failed wound to a 50% (most disadvantageous case possibile) is comparable to add 5++ to a unit that don't have it. And that's the worst case, while in the best the ability is entirely ineffective.
EDIT - I'm happy someone started to notice that another layer of FnP would be too much. And I totally agree: I said it in thDA tactics topic as soon as the DA Index was release.
I agree in general that you can build an army very resistant to anti-tank. Is it bad for the game?
Don't think so, especially considering that otherwise Eliminators and the infinite killing power creep will became even bigger (and I dislike Eliminators as anyone else).
I like strategical decisions, and DW rules forces your opponent to make them. That's good in general for the game: when people will be forced to make balanced list because spamming anti-tank will make you lose against DG or DW, spamming anti-infantry will make you lose against Knight of any color, spamming vehicles will be a sure way to defeat against Eliminators and spamming Eliminators will be a suicidal against hordes... The game and the tournament scene will be in a better shape than the (rather embarassing) usual exploitation of bad rules design.
I'm simply disappointed that a lot of people seems to see the game like a card game when you simply read the stats and are blind to the glaring weaknesses DW still retains (slow, mediocre offensive power, nerfed delivery and alpha stile capabilities).
They are really in line with Deathguard from this point of view.
Also, many don't seems to realize that while this bonus is very very good for standard Terminators (that need all the help they can get) it is much less useful to the special snowflake units (DW Knights: they will probably get a 4+ to be wounded rather than a 3+ sometimes... But if you're wounding on 2+ a unit with a Storm Shields you're making some mistake or your opponent forced you into a subpar decision).
I wouldn't have any issue if all the Terminators in general could not be wounded better than with a 4+: the extra wound they had gained in 8th is devalued by the general increases to Marine profile, and their supposedly impenetrable armour is no effective since 8th when AP came back (see how they needed to jump in loopholes to make a functioning Storm Shields).
It's bad game design for sure (like the wound limit for Ghaz and the C'Tans), bit we're not here for the good game design or we have left GW already. Also, not necessarily a bad design decision always have bad effects, sometime (like in this case) the opposite can be true.
As a side note: popping up an effect when needed after your opponent dedicated resources to an action (the same applies to a Morale test etc.) is not even remotely comparable to a transparent rule that your opponent can account for... Especially in the current state of the game where a single turn can make or break it.
If anyone think that a powerful list could be made this topic could becone more interesting.
Xeno suggestion of 30 terminator is obviously very stupid: you could deepstrike less than half (if you consider characters), so you will have like 15 Terminators to footslog, while the other will be locked out of objectives by any non-braindead opponent. Such an army will probably lose against anything and anyone.
I'll try in the next days to came up with the most efficient list I could think of... but will be probably something like a DW Vanguard and a Patrol, something around 20 Standard Terminators, a couple of supporting character, one Ravenwing unit and some tactical marine squad (or probably 2 whirlwind) to cover objective and reach hidden units.
Not really something that I envision as a top tier army.
Sorry for the long an articulate answer, but I don't engage in quotes or personal back and forth. ^^
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 10:09:58
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
I need someone who actually plays DAngles to check that I am in compliance with all the rules, however I think it's fairly reasonable to make an army that should be quite viable with only using Deathwing and Ravenwing.
IMHO their is more exploitable synergies between the 2 snowflake companies than with greenwing.
If you want to bring green wing I would say your far better off pairing them with raven wing than Deathwatch IMHO leave the deathwing at home in that case.
However below is where I would start play testing weirdly talon masters arnt showing in Battlescribe but yes they may well take the place of the dreadnaughts or atleast one of them.
Ice_can wrote: I need someone who actually plays DAngles to check that I am in compliance with all the rules, however I think it's fairly reasonable to make an army that should be quite viable with only using Deathwing and Ravenwing.
IMHO their is more exploitable synergies between the 2 snowflake companies than with greenwing.
If you want to bring green wing I would say your far better off pairing them with raven wing than Deathwatch IMHO leave the deathwing at home in that case.
However below is where I would start play testing weirdly talon masters arnt showing in Battlescribe but yes they may well take the place of the dreadnaughts or atleast one of them.
The talon masters are in the lieutenant entry in battlescribe (you add a lieutenant choice and then select there which kind you pick, they did this because it's two models for one slot).
To get the dreadnoughts in your vanguard and keep thee 1st company rule (obsec on some termies), you need to pay an additional 15 points per dreadnought.
And the list looks kinda tame to me, with some discutable choices.
Ice_can wrote: I need someone who actually plays DAngles to check that I am in compliance with all the rules, however I think it's fairly reasonable to make an army that should be quite viable with only using Deathwing and Ravenwing.
IMHO their is more exploitable synergies between the 2 snowflake companies than with greenwing.
If you want to bring green wing I would say your far better off pairing them with raven wing than Deathwatch IMHO leave the deathwing at home in that case.
However below is where I would start play testing weirdly talon masters arnt showing in Battlescribe but yes they may well take the place of the dreadnaughts or atleast one of them.
Ice_can wrote: I need someone who actually plays DAngles to check that I am in compliance with all the rules, however I think it's fairly reasonable to make an army that should be quite viable with only using Deathwing and Ravenwing.
IMHO their is more exploitable synergies between the 2 snowflake companies than with greenwing.
If you want to bring green wing I would say your far better off pairing them with raven wing than Deathwatch IMHO leave the deathwing at home in that case.
However below is where I would start play testing weirdly talon masters arnt showing in Battlescribe but yes they may well take the place of the dreadnaughts or atleast one of them.
The talon masters are in the lieutenant entry in battlescribe (you add a lieutenant choice and then select there which kind you pick, they did this because it's two models for one slot).
To get the dreadnoughts in your vanguard and keep thee 1st company rule (obsec on some termies), you need to pay an additional 15 points per dreadnought.
And the list looks kinda tame to me, with some discutable choices.
Their is still another 100 points to spend as I wasn't 100% on the costs but yeah I suspect there is better units but as a base for peoole who actually play marines to optimize.
It was primarily to prove that it is certainly possible to build a list that abuses DWRW obsec detachments.
Deathwing Terminator Squad
. . Deathwing Sergeant
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Sword
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
I think if you are going to skip on the DWT ability to mix and match and are forgoing a watcher in the dark, you would be better off with a standard terminator squad (but still deathwing) so you can access the teleport homer.
Ice_can wrote: It was primarily to prove that it is certainly possible to build a list that abuses DWRW obsec detachments.
How is using an ability - that was specifically created to do one thing (field pure DW / RW detachments) - to do exactly that thing in any definition of the word "abusive"?
Coming up with a mediocre list that does not contain any of the "cheese tactics" that you complained about in earlier posts does not support those complains particularely well, either.
Take your list, add the cheese and let us see the new OPness for discussion.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
In a game where starting with 12CP and adding more each turn is normal, why are people so focused on DW terminators having Inner Circle but no issue with 5 Aggressors using transhuman for a few turns? T5, more attacks in melee, get to blast into combat with their main weapons while in Tactical doctrine, and not that much more points wise.
Is it really just the free nature of the rule that bothers people rather than actual on table effectiveness?
I don't think the book will be over the top. However, one strong combo is a Ravenwing Outrider detachment with 9 Attack Bikes (I prefer with Multi Meltas). Invulnerable saves, an upgraded Apothecary on bike which can keep up with them as they can be brought back, unlike the Invader ATV. And Obsec. I think this is the start of a solid fire base for a Ravenwing themed list. Of my lists, I end up taking the Outrider detachment and a Patrol detachment. I still want units such as Infiltrators and the option for a Librarian.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Sarigar wrote: I don't think the book will be over the top. However, one strong combo is a Ravenwing Outrider detachment with 9 Attack Bikes (I prefer with Multi Meltas). Invulnerable saves, an upgraded Apothecary on bike which can keep up with them as they can be brought back, unlike the Invader ATV. And Obsec. I think this is the start of a solid fire base for a Ravenwing themed list. Of my lists, I end up taking the Outrider detachment and a Patrol detachment. I still want units such as Infiltrators and the option for a Librarian.
I'm not entirely sure but I don't think they get obsec (I think it's standard bike squads and outriders only).
Attack bikes are still quite strong without it though.
This is where I see people thinking they're ott but then aren't really grasping their rules.
If I'm taking a RW outrider, I'm not going to rely on Outriders or attack bikes. Sure, they are ok individually, but they are small units that will be unable to screen a character after one casualty. You need at least a few landspeeders or larger bike sqds to stop them getting picked off easily, and DA have some solid characters
Edit: unless you are building around a core of fottsloggers that will screen while your outriders race out to contest far objectives etc
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 13:14:07
Ice_can wrote: It was primarily to prove that it is certainly possible to build a list that abuses DWRW obsec detachments.
How is using an ability - that was specifically created to do one thing (field pure DW / RW detachments) - to do exactly that thing in any definition of the word "abusive"?
Coming up with a mediocre list that does not contain any of the "cheese tactics" that you complained about in earlier posts does not support those complains particularely well, either.
Take your list, add the cheese and let us see the new OPness for discussion.
My complaints has been from the get go about GW continuing to fiddle with the wounding table with modifiers and limitations when they haven't even figured out the impacts from changing it in the first place.
Having your army's 15 T4 3W obsec be 2+, 4+ to wound and them being 2 of your 3 while we stand we fight units, and the other half being T5 4W hiding behind a 4++. Seems pretty cheesey to me.
Yeah the list posted isnt optmised but given I couldn't even fidn the talon master as I don't own any marine's I don't think it's a weak list like many are saying looking on as a xeno player.
I'd look towards a Ravenwing detachment with Talonmasters, Attack Bikes and Outriders with an apothecary and a normal detachment with some infiltrators, bgv and Ezekial.
Deathwing detachment feels like a trap, to expensive just to get the obsec.
The above seems a list that has much more potential,
Good luck shifting them off of any objectives.
2 plasma cannons and 2 multi melta's + talon masters is your meaningful shooting threat. Yes its tough but if the enemy gets to freely shoot you the entire game that toughness isn't going to last.
I'd rather invest in one large DW sqd to hit the center, or, combat squad it to have 2 cyclones on back objective and a couple of TH/SS up front.
I'm going to wait until Sat before putting some lists together and trying them out solo
The above seems a list that has much more potential,
Good luck shifting them off of any objectives.
2 plasma cannons and 2 multi melta's + talon masters is your meaningful shooting threat. Yes its tough but if the enemy gets to freely shoot you the entire game that toughness isn't going to last.
If what I think of when I think shooting armies become meta I would agree, but the factions marine players are screaming are more OP than them is demons and Harlequines. Yeah Harlequines can bring massed fusion but at 12 inch range charge them.
Plus if you can max score and limit your opponents score turn 2&3 the games done in my experiances. 9th's missions atleast pre FAQ didn't alloq for a massive comeback if you're outacoring someone hard turn 2&3 they're out of the game even if they table you turn 4/5.
I'm willing to be shown a better list but again as a non marine player having spent maybe half an hour on it it doesnt feel like a list that doesnt have potential.
Maybe everyone's playing on different terrain density but I dont think being shot off the table these days is as likely as people think outside of guard and frankly that won't matter if your sitting on a 90+VP score by turn 3/4.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 14:27:29
Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
I want to play some games before I jump on the doom and gloom bandwagon.
In my games against Death Guard, which were viewed like this beforehand, I've been able to play and have good games against them without too many problems, winning one and losing two (but one of those losses was to some rules errors that might have changed things, ya know, new rules kerfluffels). I've killed Mortarion 3 times, and he isn't supposed to be killable.
The point behind this long-winded exposition is that while I think the new DA supplement looks really strong, Its really hard for me to tell if its broken or not because far too often, things that are broken according to the internet are really just very strong, and things that get dismissed immediately sometimes can be stronger than anticipated.
I do agree that it looks VERY strong, but I'm going to hold out judgement until I get to play a few games against them.
Bosskelot wrote: Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
Seriously though. If we are going to ban things that are OP at tournaments? Why not ban the OP units themselves. Not specifically DA stuff. In every army?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bosskelot wrote: Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
Seriously though. If we are going to ban things that are OP at tournaments? Why not ban the OP units themselves. Not specifically DA stuff. In every army?
Probably because people like yourself cannot be objective about what us broken or not.
Bosskelot wrote: Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
Yeah, I think this is more of a problem than anything else. Because points can be changed relatively easily. CP costs can be shifted.
I think its going to be harder for GW to admit these secondaries are far too easy to get - and moreover, even if they do recognise that, accept a way of nerfing them beyond "yeah these max out at 10 points or something, bye."
I think you'd have to be very optimistic to think faction secondaries will be purged when they are being added with every new book. Possible, but wouldn't bet much on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 15:27:22
Spoletta wrote: It's not so long now until the next GT book, and I would be surprised if the faction secondaries don't go the way of the specialist detachments.
Yeah such great news for those who won't get there codex's for atleast another 4 codexs probably more.
GW gives stuff to marines lets them enjoy it for a year, oh you xeno player yeah no, no codex secondarys for you.
