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Matt.Kingsley wrote: I keep hearing/seeing people say you need a Deathwing Vanguard detachment to give all Deathwing units from the base codex Inner Circle... except that's not true. All Deathwing & Inner Circle units in any Dark Angel detachment get Inner Circle.
The Vanguard is needed for ObSec, yes, but not Inner Circle.
It's the same thing for Ravenwing and Jink - you don't need an Outrider for it, they just all get it.
Oh that is a good point so...really its just Ob sec for the special requirements. Which is not actually what I care about. Any marine army can get an obsec aura...The issue is free transhuman. Any DA army can just include squads of terms and they still get free transhuman. Utterly busted. Wont last a month before it is removed. Or if it proves to not be opressive...(it is oppressive) they should just go ahead and add it to every terminator unit in the game because clearly...if the unit isn't strong with toughness infinity...it clearly needs the rule for free.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: if the unit isn't strong with toughness infinity...it clearly needs the rule for free.
It is not infinity, or else you would wound on 6s only. It acts as toughness = strength of the attack with the addition of ignoring positive to wound modifiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 15:47:01
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Deathwing Terminator Squad
. . Deathwing Sergeant
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Sword
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
. . Deathwing Terminator
. . . . Storm Bolter & Power Fist: Power fist
I think if you are going to skip on the DWT ability to mix and match and are forgoing a watcher in the dark, you would be better off with a standard terminator squad (but still deathwing) so you can access the teleport homer.
I'd also switch the Sergeant to be the one with the TH/SS so that, if melee happens, you can take advantage of the extra attack.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Bosskelot wrote: Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
I think this is an excellent observation. DA are less durable than Death Guard, and any loyalist chapter can match their firepower. It's the rules that seem concentrated on giving them maximum scoring potential while denying their opponents scoring that put them on another level. I think removing that faction secondary would bring them in line with other factions that have received their 9th edition codex.
Xenomancers wrote: if the unit isn't strong with toughness infinity...it clearly needs the rule for free.
It is not infinity, or else you would wound on 6s only. It acts as toughness = strength of the attack with the addition of ignoring positive to wound modifiers.
Everyone know what I mean by infinity toughness. I was actually reusing a the phrase as it was used earlier in this thread.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The above seems a list that has much more potential,
Good luck shifting them off of any objectives.
Edited to reflect the list having 9CP not the 6CP BS says.
C'Tan
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bosskelot wrote: Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
You have 3 to 4 turns to disrupt the DA secondary and put them at 7 points max. It has to be the same unit the whole time.
Oath you can cut the knees out of if you hold the middle and if they're holding the middle the objectives are going to be easier to grab.
I think this is an excellent observation. DA are less durable than Death Guard, and any loyalist chapter can match their firepower. It's the rules that seem concentrated on giving them maximum scoring potential while denying their opponents scoring that put them on another level. I think removing that faction secondary would bring them in line with other factions that have received their 9th edition codex.
If people are letting Oath go then they don't really understand the secondaries.
Take a mission with 6 objectives. How are DA going to hold more AND the center? Once you cut up the bikes and the unit sitting on the back for Stubborn they should score pretty low. You don't even have to touch the rest of the army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 16:12:48
The above seems a list that has much more potential,
Good luck shifting them off of any objectives.
Edited to reflect the list having 9CP not the 6CP BS says.
C'Tan
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bosskelot wrote: Having watched a few DA batreps and talking with comp DA players, the army seems stupidly strong in a non-interactive way.
Perma transhuman and damage numbers or whatever don't matter whatsoever. Every well piloted DA game I've seen so far has had them get maximum VP's in like, every single game, solely because they can take Oaths of Moment AND the DA one, giving them a free 30 VP's that they don't have to do anything particularly strenuous to achieve. They literally just sit there and gain points from doing absolutely nothing.
A few events are going to banning taking 2 codex secondaries which makes complete sense and should hopefully curtail this issue until GW fixes it themselves.
You have 3 to 4 turns to disrupt the DA secondary and put them at 7 points max. It has to be the same unit the whole time.
Oath you can cut the knees out of if you hold the middle and if they're holding the middle the objectives are going to be easier to grab.
Yeah and in actual reality Oaths gets picked in basically every recorded Marine match and gets them 15 VP's every single game (or at least in like 99% of them)
Oaths is the primary reason so many competitive players and tournaments have discussed a blanket ban on faction secondaries because it is such a problem.
Yeah and in actual reality Oaths gets picked in basically every recorded Marine match and gets them 15 VP's every single game (or at least in like 99% of them)
Oaths is the primary reason so many competitive players and tournaments have discussed a blanket ban on faction secondaries because it is such a problem.
The bigger part of Oath is wholly w/i 6" of the center. If people aren't cutting that unit out then they better be picking up more primaries.
Depending on your list they need minimum 3 turns in the middle to max. I play against Salamanders almost exclusively ( because of COVID ) and I never let that slide.
I will agree that it is easier than most to work up points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 16:19:26
Oath is a serious problem, it's very, very hard to deny. There is a reason that it's picked and almost maxed out everytime in tournaments. It is most definitely not easy to counter.
Combining that with the other DA is just a recipe for easily 20-30 points from just those two secondaries. At the very least they need to faq it so you can't take a supplement and main SM codex secondary.
I can't talk about secondaries since I haven't check that part yet but in general I agree secondaries are badly designed (in general) and is no surprising that the most vocal whiners missed this point.
Luckily, it's one of the point I expect the tournament organizer will be able to fix more easily (and we all know like tournament rules tends to bleed into general games).
About the best (or worst) list you can create, I have a few suggestions here:
1) it should be centered in Deathwing (and RW) otherwise the topic became too wide. Also, the perceived issues seems here, with a focus on the cap on 4+ to wound.
2) I think Azrael don't have a spot in a combined -wing competitive list. It shines with heavy firepower but have little sinergy with both DW and RW (compared to his price).
3) More than a 1000pt of half the army in Terminator armour (maybe with the exception of a single unit of DW Knight) should not be considered competitive. Footslogging Terminators really don't go anywhere (but maybe here I'm wrong). Either you deepstrike them, or you deepstrike them.
4) Relic and Standard Terminators have Inner Circle too, and are a better choices if you don't use either the Watcher or the mixed load out options.
5) I feel that the Cyclone missile launcher is still the strongest option: I usually prefer the Assault Cannon but you'll be lacking a lot of ranged AT.
6) you can't have few or small unit of Ravenwing, you need to go big (or have Whirlwind/Scout or even Rhino). They HAVE to contest the center of the board, pinpoint location for deep Strike and screen your charactera (and as such suffer the retaliation), but you need something else (aside Terminators) for the endgame.
So I expect something like this to be the most versatile list in 9th:
2*10 Terminators squad, Sergeant with TH/SS, Cyclone Missile launcher, Watcher.
1*6 (10) Ravenwing Knight
1*6 Ravenwing Bikers with Assault Bike with MM 2 Whirlwind
1 full Devastator Squad or some primaris
1/2 Support Characters (1 Apothecary either RW or DW and maybe an Ancient)
2 HQ depending on the remaining point (obviously the best choice is either Sammael or a Talonmaster, but even an humble Liutenants will work).
The idea should be to use the Vanguard to include the Ravenwing Knight and being able to cover the rest with a simple Patrol, starting with more CP.
Another entirely different approach is to go heavy on the Land Speeder (not the Dark shroud, with the cap at -1 it's a trap). They are discretely resistant to small arms fire and thanks to Jinks to AT too... they can mess the target priority of your opponent (basically, you will be offering underperforming target to either AT or small arms).
Considering that the vast majority of players get during 8th the bad habit of assessing only damage output, they can really throw a wrench in the calculation.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 16:24:15
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
Cybtroll wrote: I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
They don't seem to have a lot of strats to make that worthwhile. You'd get an unkillable unit, but I feel like it would be super inflexible.
Given the way 9th plays in my experiance taking units over a break point for blast weapons when you dont have to is a trap choice short of going all out.
Also Daedalus can you check my maths here but even with the nightbringer I'm only getting 6 attacks 5 hits 2.5 wounds into a 5+ save for 1.67 wounds averaging 3.5 damage leads to 2 dead terminators and 1 terminator who gets back up because of the chief necromancer. That doesnt seem efficent and they are fairly reliably going to be able to put 3 wounds back to the Ctan in shooting and CC. I dont see the Ctan winning that fight.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 16:40:44
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
a_typical_hero wrote: Terminators can't use their invul save against the "Entropic blow" profile of the Nightbringer.
In the movement phase Nightbringer will do 4.44 mortal wounds.
In melee you can pick between 2.5 wounds for 8.75 damage or 5 wounds for 2.77 damage.
Assuming 5+ invul and 6+ FNP.
Given they have a 2+ with a +1 for storm shield that's still a 5+ save ignoring invulnerable saves I didnt think they could take FNP against nightbringer. Draging that 2.5 wounds down to under 2 and chief necro boy brings back 1 of those 2.
Also thats a 370 point Ctan vrs 1 220 ish point unit. With a 130 charictor for support that can easily buff other stuff if needed.
The MW output seems to even the field a lot better but is that before or after the 6+++?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 17:19:18
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Cybtroll wrote: I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
They don't seem to have a lot of strats to make that worthwhile. You'd get an unkillable unit, but I feel like it would be super inflexible.
Adaptive strategy? They got access to that? Plus lets not forget. They are getting a free 1/2 Strat every turn that makes them near unkillable.
a_typical_hero wrote: Terminators can't use their invul save against the "Entropic blow" profile of the Nightbringer.
In the movement phase Nightbringer will do 4.44 mortal wounds.
In melee you can pick between 2.5 wounds for 8.75 damage or 5 wounds for 2.77 damage.
Assuming 5+ invul and 6+ FNP.
Given they have a 2+ with a +1 for storm shield that's still a 5+ save ignoring invulnerable saves I didnt think they could take FNP against nightbringer. Draging that 2.5 wounds down to under 2 and chief necro boy brings back 1 of those 2.
Also thats a 270 point Ctan vrs 1 220 ish point unit. With a 130 charictor for support that can easily buff other stuff if needed.
The MW output seems to even the field a lot better but is that before or after the 6+++?
cant take FNP vs nightbringer ether. It's a good conter. Pretty much the only unit I am aware of that doesn't care what rules you have because they ignore all your rules. Except -1 damage...that works.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 17:19:21
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Ice_can wrote: Given the way 9th plays in my experiance taking units over a break point for blast weapons when you dont have to is a trap choice short of going all out.
Also Daedalus can you check my maths here but even with the nightbringer I'm only getting 6 attacks 5 hits 2.5 wounds into a 5+ save for 1.67 wounds averaging 3.5 damage leads to 2 dead terminators and 1 terminator who gets back up because of the chief necromancer. That doesnt seem efficent and they are fairly reliably going to be able to put 3 wounds back to the Ctan in shooting and CC. I dont see the Ctan winning that fight.
Don't forger powers. Antimatter Meteor will pick up one on a 3+. Time's Arrow is 3+ as well. Nightbringer is 3D6 4+ drops D3 MW ( so up to 3D3 MW ). So one of the first two and that one. He'll likely have taken off half a squad or more before he gets there. Once he's in combat he'll snipe the Apothecary. I'd have to read the targeting rules, but I think Void Dragon can shoot into combat with his lance and tag stuff behind.
I'd also beware of Thousand Sons once they get their redo - its easy enough to put mortal wounds for 3 terminators a turn as it stands now without exposing the casters.
Cybtroll wrote: I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
They don't seem to have a lot of strats to make that worthwhile. You'd get an unkillable unit, but I feel like it would be super inflexible.
Adaptive strategy? They got access to that? Plus lets not forget. They are getting a free 1/2 Strat every turn that makes them near unkillable.
They aren't "near unkillable". They take more damage on average than Death Guard terminators vs every weapon I've done the math for. Settle down.
Cybtroll wrote: I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
They don't seem to have a lot of strats to make that worthwhile. You'd get an unkillable unit, but I feel like it would be super inflexible.
Adaptive strategy? They got access to that? Plus lets not forget. They are getting a free 1/2 Strat every turn that makes them near unkillable.
They aren't "near unkillable". They take more damage on average than Death Guard terminators vs every weapon I've done the math for. Settle down.
I mean, I can easily name a weapon they take less damage from.
Heavy Intercessor Weapons, excepting their D2 weapons.
S5 means wounding on 4s (Both)
AP0 means saving on 2+ (Both), AP-1 means saving on a 2+ (DW with Stormshields) or 3+ (DG), AP-2 means saving on a 3+ (DW with Stormshields) or 4+ (DG)
D1 means 1 damage per failed save
Blightlord and Deathshrouds are also more expensive the DW units.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Cybtroll wrote: I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
They don't seem to have a lot of strats to make that worthwhile. You'd get an unkillable unit, but I feel like it would be super inflexible.
Adaptive strategy? They got access to that? Plus lets not forget. They are getting a free 1/2 Strat every turn that makes them near unkillable.
They aren't "near unkillable". They take more damage on average than Death Guard terminators vs every weapon I've done the math for. Settle down.
I mean, I can easily name a weapon they take less damage from.
Heavy Intercessor Weapons, excepting their D2 weapons.
S5 means wounding on 4s (Both)
AP0 means saving on 2+ (Both), AP-1 means saving on a 2+ (DW with Stormshields) or 3+ (DG), AP-2 means saving on a 3+ (DW with Stormshields) or 4+ (DG)
D1 means 1 damage per failed save
Blightlord and Deathshrouds are also more expensive the DW units.
Good point. I guess I should have mentioned I was only comparing weapons that I use. Whoops.
Cybtroll wrote: I almost forgot, with DA you should go big with your unit (especially with Terminators). Blast isn't really so dangerous, and the ability to essentially ignore morale allow you to have better return from your stratagems with bigger units.
They don't seem to have a lot of strats to make that worthwhile. You'd get an unkillable unit, but I feel like it would be super inflexible.
Adaptive strategy? They got access to that? Plus lets not forget. They are getting a free 1/2 Strat every turn that makes them near unkillable.
They aren't "near unkillable". They take more damage on average than Death Guard terminators vs every weapon I've done the math for. Settle down.
I mean, I can easily name a weapon they take less damage from.
Heavy Intercessor Weapons, excepting their D2 weapons.
S5 means wounding on 4s (Both)
AP0 means saving on 2+ (Both), AP-1 means saving on a 2+ (DW with Stormshields) or 3+ (DG), AP-2 means saving on a 3+ (DW with Stormshields) or 4+ (DG)
D1 means 1 damage per failed save
Blightlord and Deathshrouds are also more expensive the DW units.
Good point. I guess I should have mentioned I was only comparing weapons that I use. Whoops.
Nah, it's totally fair. I imagine DG Termis are, model-to-model, more durable against many weapons.
Point-for-point is another matter, though.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: Blightlord and Deathshrouds are also more expensive the DW units.
Blightlord aren't when you remember to add the price of the stormshields used in those calculations though. DW terminators with hammer and shield (they can't take just the shield) are 43 ppm and DW Knights are 47 (vs 40ppm).
Deathshrouds cost 3 ppm more than knights which doesn't seem outrageous with a quick glance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 17:56:28
JNAProductions wrote: Blightlord and Deathshrouds are also more expensive the DW units.
Blightlord aren't when you remember to add the price of the stormshields used in those calculations though. DW terminators with hammer and shield (they can't take just the shield) are 43 ppm and DW Knights are 47.
Deathshrouds cost 3 ppm more than knights which doesn't seem outrageous with a quick glance.
Fair enough. Tis a good point.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
a_typical_hero wrote: Mortal wounds happen because of C'tan powers. The "can't use rules that prevent wounds" only applies to melee attacks.
Ahh yes - you are correct.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
JNAProductions wrote: Blightlord and Deathshrouds are also more expensive the DW units.
Blightlord aren't when you remember to add the price of the stormshields used in those calculations though. DW terminators with hammer and shield (they can't take just the shield) are 43 ppm and DW Knights are 47 (vs 40ppm).
Deathshrouds cost 3 ppm more than knights which doesn't seem outrageous with a quick glance.
You don't NEED the SS on every Terminator though, which is a benefit in of itself.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I don't know why we are comapring one factions broken rule to another. We have nothing to compare the DG rule to...for DA we literally have space marines which are the exact same units that cost the same without the rule (a clear imbalance).
DG units do in fact cost more for their DR on a lot of their units too - do they not? The only difference here is competitively. flat 2 damage weapons are going bye bye. Now only d3 flat 3+ or mass 1 damage. Both rules are just absurd though. The only counter to wound on a 4+ is don't bring big guns at all. Which means youll lose vs high toughness lists flat out. This is advantage DA all the way.
It really is funny that people are actually defending this. This is the point we are at now...where army wide -1 damage and 4+ max to wound are actually entertained as being balanced lol. You guys truly are helpless. If you ever wonder why the game never gets balance this is why. The community as a whole does not want balance.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 20:10:39
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
4000+
6000+ Order. Unity. Obedience.
Thousand Sons 4000+
