Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
JNAProductions wrote: Because Terminators are incapable of falling back and having the rest of the army unload on them, if they're in a bad spot. Yup, that's an impossible situation!
You set the 7 rounds locked in combat with no support or special rules scenario, not me. If you want to complain that your own scenario isn't realistic then be my guest.
JNAProductions wrote: Because Terminators are incapable of falling back and having the rest of the army unload on them, if they're in a bad spot. Yup, that's an impossible situation!
I think you were talking about "vanilla" terms but in the case of DW, they have to pass a LD test to do so (it's one of their free bonus !).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: No Xenomancers, sorry should have quoted him not you
No worries, I figured as much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 23:16:29
JNAProductions wrote: Because Terminators are incapable of falling back and having the rest of the army unload on them, if they're in a bad spot. Yup, that's an impossible situation!
You set the 7 rounds locked in combat with no support or special rules scenario, not me. If you want to complain that your own scenario isn't realistic then be my guest.
5 rounds.
And the point there is that they might be average for a Marine unit, but they sure as hell ain’t average compared to other Codecs.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I find it funny how after so many years of DA being a low performing army that lost so many things from 7th - 8th how now people are complaining. Normal SM players have always had better gear right off the bat I.e grav weapons, anti air tanks, storm ravens, storm talons, veteran squads (stern guard, vanguard) , cheaper by 30pts originally terminators. And now that DA are at the front of this new rule release train everyone decides to hate. Hell UM have a primarch and the other supplements thus far way out powered our codeces until now. I’m just glad that finally I may have a chance to do well in the game. Over the 10 years I’ve played DA although my largest army of around 20K points always did the worst compared to AM or even CSM.
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns. This game is so incredibly basic compared to real strategy games. It doesn't make the game less fun though. What makes the game less fun is obviously broken gak like this being defended and propagated across the whole game.
Laughs in squigbuggy.
One thing you are not doing is comparing balance by codex instead of individual units. This is true across all marine units in a codex or supplement. Some units are just going to be better with certain chapters. One of Dark Angels schtick is their terminators. Therefore, expect GW to find a way to make them better than say in a Ravenguard army.
If the codex as a whole is unbalanced, and they start dominating the competitive scene, changes will be made.
Sarigar wrote: I don't think the book will be over the top. However, one strong combo is a Ravenwing Outrider detachment with 9 Attack Bikes (I prefer with Multi Meltas). Invulnerable saves, an upgraded Apothecary on bike which can keep up with them as they can be brought back, unlike the Invader ATV. And Obsec. I think this is the start of a solid fire base for a Ravenwing themed list. Of my lists, I end up taking the Outrider detachment and a Patrol detachment. I still want units such as Infiltrators and the option for a Librarian.
I'm not entirely sure but I don't think they get obsec (I think it's standard bike squads and outriders only).
Attack bikes are still quite strong without it though.
Thanks for that catch. I went back and reviewed it. Attack Bikes will not receive Obsec.
I'm still looking at them being a solid shooting element. I've been debating their utility over Eradicators.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Stalked21 wrote: I find it funny how after so many years of DA being a low performing army that lost so many things from 7th - 8th how now people are complaining. Normal SM players have always had better gear right off the bat I.e grav weapons, anti air tanks, storm ravens, storm talons, veteran squads (stern guard, vanguard) , cheaper by 30pts originally terminators. And now that DA are at the front of this new rule release train everyone decides to hate. Hell UM have a primarch and the other supplements thus far way out powered our codeces until now. I’m just glad that finally I may have a chance to do well in the game. Over the 10 years I’ve played DA although my largest army of around 20K points always did the worst compared to AM or even CSM.
Lost how many things?
Do you really want to play that game? I am sure you'd be thrilled to know what DE players have to say or i dunno, any other army that isn't marines, and you know what DE or the other xenos aren't even the worst case scenario.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 13:19:25
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I think that the point was to highlight how DA can't be suspected of being favoured in terms of rules or model selection. Especially if you take as measure the Marine vanilla codex.
They however get model updates quite constantly compared to the other snowflake chapters (probably on SW get more) bit historically DA player care very little about the rules, otherwise they would have left the army something like 4 edition ago.
I suspect that one of the reason are exactly their wings. Of you pick the only Chapter that need/support 3 different paint scheme, you probably aren't somehow who care for the rules only and who is most invested in the hobby.
That said, I'm writing a list. What HQ do you feel a powerhouse DA should include?
Right now only the Talonmaster seems worth his point. Sammael would be good, but I'm short on point.
I tend more towards a Chaplain or a Librarian in Terminator... Who you think is the best of the two?
I can't condone a place where abusers and abused are threated the same: it's destined to doom, so there is no reason to participate in it.
Engulfing Fear = Turn off ObSec AND (!!) Turn of Actions. Sure.
Mind Wipe = Turn off those pesky auras. Lol.
Averasion = Tempest's Wrath from Wolves, except flat-out better, because Wolves are already 3 months behind the power-creep.
Mind Worm = GSC Mass Hypnosis except also randomly some Mortal Wounds on top and more range, because why the power-fething-creep-not?
Righteous Repugnance = superior Guide + superior Unbind Souls wrapped in a single spell that is either to cast than either of these (already extremely powerful) Eldar spells. Yes, please. Did I say power creep?
Even Trephination (which you probably never take) is just smite, except statistically flat out better.
Righteous Repugnance = superior Guide + superior Unbind Souls wrapped in a single spell that is either to cast than either of these (already extremely powerful) Eldar spells. Yes, please. Did I say power creep?
What power creep ? It's literally a copy/paste from the 8th ed codex.
And most of the rest is comparing to stuff waiting to be updated, which seems a bit pointless as we know that 9th ed books aren't on the same level as 8th ones.
Not saying it isn't a good psychic tree, just feel the exercice is pointless and overdone in these threads.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 14:16:47
Righteous Repugnance = superior Guide + superior Unbind Souls wrapped in a single spell that is either to cast than either of these (already extremely powerful) Eldar spells. Yes, please. Did I say power creep?
What power creep ? It's literally a copy/paste from the 8th ed codex.
And most of the rest is comparing to stuff waiting to be updated, which seems a bit pointless as we know that 9th ed books aren't on the same level as 8th ones.
But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
Righteous Repugnance = superior Guide + superior Unbind Souls wrapped in a single spell that is either to cast than either of these (already extremely powerful) Eldar spells. Yes, please. Did I say power creep?
What power creep ? It's literally a copy/paste from the 8th ed codex.
And most of the rest is comparing to stuff waiting to be updated, which seems a bit pointless as we know that 9th ed books aren't on the same level as 8th ones.
But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
You're talking about lethality in an era in which every single codex released is resilient, after a whine about a psychic tree that is mainly not geared towards damage and in a thread mainly about how so much more resilient something has become. The power creep isn't just "more dakka" but also quite often "more mechanics better suited to win the missions".
And visibly power creep is also some times "omg, that stuff from the previous edition is completely busted because I just discovered it in 9th"
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 14:23:38
Stalked21 wrote: I find it funny how after so many years of DA being a low performing army that lost so many things from 7th - 8th how now people are complaining. Normal SM players have always had better gear right off the bat I.e grav weapons, anti air tanks, storm ravens, storm talons, veteran squads (stern guard, vanguard) , cheaper by 30pts originally terminators. And now that DA are at the front of this new rule release train everyone decides to hate. Hell UM have a primarch and the other supplements thus far way out powered our codeces until now. I’m just glad that finally I may have a chance to do well in the game. Over the 10 years I’ve played DA although my largest army of around 20K points always did the worst compared to AM or even CSM.
Lost how many things?
Do you really want to play that game? I am sure you'd be thrilled to know what DE players have to say or i dunno, any other army that isn't marines, and you know what DE or the other xenos aren't even the worst case scenario.
Not talking about Xenos races they get shafted in many many ways only about SM players.
Righteous Repugnance = superior Guide + superior Unbind Souls wrapped in a single spell that is either to cast than either of these (already extremely powerful) Eldar spells. Yes, please. Did I say power creep?
What power creep ? It's literally a copy/paste from the 8th ed codex.
And most of the rest is comparing to stuff waiting to be updated, which seems a bit pointless as we know that 9th ed books aren't on the same level as 8th ones.
But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
You're talking about lethality after a whine about a psychic tree that is mainly not geared towards damage and in a thread mainly about how so much more resilient something has become. The power creep isn't just "more dakka" but also quite often "more mechanics better suited to win the missions".
Because the increase in resilience (both with rules like inner circle and shutting off aura's) is an arms race with increases in lethality.
GW shouldn't be trying to control their own rampant lethality issues by giving some units massive defences, because not everyone is getting them. And even if everyone did it would be yet more rules bloat. They could and should have used 9th edition to make the game less deadly through the basic rules and profiles. And clearly adjusting profiles is on the table because they did it to make Space Marines more powerful...
And I don't see a while about the lack of psychic damage, but someone pointing out how incredibly good the powers are compared to almost everyone else.
Ordana wrote: Because the increase in resilience (both with rules like inner circle and shutting off aura's) is an arms race with increases in lethality.
GW shouldn't be trying to control their own rampant lethality issues by giving some units massive defences, because not everyone is getting them. And even if everyone did it would be yet more rules bloat. They could and should have used 9th edition to make the game less deadly through the basic rules and profiles. And clearly adjusting profiles is on the table because they did it to make Space Marines more powerful...
And I don't see a while about the lack of psychic damage, but someone pointing out how incredibly good the powers are compared to almost everyone else.
From the top of my head there is barely any increase of lethality in the codex supplement we're discussing in this thread from 8th to 9th. It might even have been toned down a bit (need the book).
I think "vanilla" marines got toned down a little bit. Dunno about the other shades of marines.
Every marines gained access to strong indomitus new models though. So maybe it's a wash.
Can't really talk about necrons but I would guess they gained more in resilience than lethality (and they probably needed an increase in both).
Can't say for DG.
And as I lump them with the 9th ed gang, sisters are very resilient or very lethal, depending what you want to do, rarely both. Hard to say they gained in resilience since they never got a codex in 8th, but comparing index to codex, they did.
As far as I'm concerned, I feel like they are actually trying to address 8th ed power levels without nerfing everyone to the ground. We will have a better idea of if they can achieve it when codex Drukhari is released (this army being the epitomy of glass canon)
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 14:48:06
Ordana wrote: But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
*glances nervously at DG, Necron Warriors, and transhuman termies*
Please don't hit me with the competitive angle ether. I've been playing this game for 20 years. I can find the broken combos and win tournaments as easily as you can. I can do target priority like a boss. I will deconstruct your army and strategy and tell you exactly what you plan to do on what turns. This game is so incredibly basic compared to real strategy games. It doesn't make the game less fun though. What makes the game less fun is obviously broken gak like this being defended and propagated across the whole game.
Laughs in squigbuggy.
One thing you are not doing is comparing balance by codex instead of individual units. This is true across all marine units in a codex or supplement. Some units are just going to be better with certain chapters. One of Dark Angels schtick is their terminators. Therefore, expect GW to find a way to make them better than say in a Ravenguard army.
If the codex as a whole is unbalanced, and they start dominating the competitive scene, changes will be made.
Ehhh not really. DA schtick is having more suits of terminator than your average chapter and they paint their suits bone color. So they should be allowed to field a whole army of terms if they want or get some bonus when they deep strike in. Increase in durability is just silly and an insult to terminators in every other marine chapter. ESP with no increase points cost.
What I have been saying all along is it will get nerfed. There is no question it will be. Or I am wrong...and we can go ahead and give all terms in the game 4+ max to wound for free cause clearly they need it. Yeah...no...it's going to dominate. Just as the OP predicted. Ironhands 2.0.
What is the result of nonsense rules like this? More fuel for the fire for people blanket attacking space marine players because of a new release which only last a few months. Over and Over and Over.
Ordana wrote: But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
*glances nervously at DG, Necron Warriors, and transhuman termies*
Yeah - units that are indestructible tend to kill more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/04 16:14:57
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Stalked21 wrote: I find it funny how after so many years of DA being a low performing army that lost so many things from 7th - 8th how now people are complaining. Normal SM players have always had better gear right off the bat I.e grav weapons, anti air tanks, storm ravens, storm talons, veteran squads (stern guard, vanguard) , cheaper by 30pts originally terminators. And now that DA are at the front of this new rule release train everyone decides to hate. Hell UM have a primarch and the other supplements thus far way out powered our codeces until now. I’m just glad that finally I may have a chance to do well in the game. Over the 10 years I’ve played DA although my largest army of around 20K points always did the worst compared to AM or even CSM.
Lost how many things?
Do you really want to play that game? I am sure you'd be thrilled to know what DE players have to say or i dunno, any other army that isn't marines, and you know what DE or the other xenos aren't even the worst case scenario.
Not talking about Xenos races they get shafted in many many ways only about SM players.
Almost like trying to pretend Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves are entirely separate and unique armies is a huge problem!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Da Boss wrote: It is really funny to see posters who basically tell Xenos players to shut up and sit down when they complain complaining about the newest marine release.
Enjoy it lads! Maybe it will help ye to grow some empathy, I won't be holding my breath.
Okay reality check.
Marines aren't even a top 3 army in competitive play.
Sisters
Daemons
Harliquens
and Custodes
win more games than marines do.
Marines a solid army right now. No question about it. As long as those armies above are doing better than marines are though. You have no place to complain about marines. It is actually quite logical though to attack this DA release. They get rules that other marines don't get...as well as all the special rules that come from being in a marine dex....at the cost of 0. It literally can't get more obvious than that. It is unarguably unfair.
So it is very simple...If you think marines are OP right now...you must certainly think giving them army wide access...for free...of pretty much the best stratagem in the space marine codex. 4+ max to wound for the cost of nothing (but picking the units you want to take anyways) is much more OP.
...I keep going over this and you keep losing your ability to read or function apparently. Marines are a TOP tier army and W/L rate is meaningless in the extreme. As a perfect example of this point, https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/mwafv4qe
Battle in the Bush 2021:
1st Place: Space Marines
2nd Place: Space Marines
3rd Place: Space Marines
6th Place: Space Marines
7th Place: Space Marines
3 top 4 placings and 5 top 8 Placings. Guess what though? Overall the SM faction finished the tournament with a W/L rate of 34 wins and 30 losses. Most of those losses came from MIRROR matches because over 1/3rd of the event was SMs. BTW, SM finished with 3 of the top 4 spots, AND had the 3 of the bottom 4 spots. Which is what a lot of us have been saying for awhile, SMs get balanced out by having some of the worst players because its the de facto "Entry" level army.
Now if you want to sit there and tell me a faction, which can basically sweep the top rankings at a GT, isn't a top tier army I have to question your ability to reason properly. And BTW, the sub factions were in descending order: Blood Angels, White Scars, Dark Angels, Smurfs and Crimson fists.
Ordana wrote: But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
cynically I'll guess that the power creep will get turned down with one of the xenos factions who will become the basement dwellar for this edition. I remember after the feth storm that was 6th, everyone wanted the power creep turned down, so in 7th when Codex Orkz came out and was actually worse than their previous 4th edition codex and weaker than most armies 6th edition codex's there was hope that GW would turn down the lethality of the game a bit. And that belief was held tightly right up until Necrons, SM, Tau and Eldar came out and utterly destroyed the notion in its entirety.
Da Boss wrote: It is really funny to see posters who basically tell Xenos players to shut up and sit down when they complain complaining about the newest marine release.
Enjoy it lads! Maybe it will help ye to grow some empathy, I won't be holding my breath.
Okay reality check.
Marines aren't even a top 3 army in competitive play.
Sisters
Daemons
Harliquens
and Custodes
win more games than marines do.
Marines a solid army right now. No question about it. As long as those armies above are doing better than marines are though. You have no place to complain about marines. It is actually quite logical though to attack this DA release. They get rules that other marines don't get...as well as all the special rules that come from being in a marine dex....at the cost of 0. It literally can't get more obvious than that. It is unarguably unfair.
So it is very simple...If you think marines are OP right now...you must certainly think giving them army wide access...for free...of pretty much the best stratagem in the space marine codex. 4+ max to wound for the cost of nothing (but picking the units you want to take anyways) is much more OP.
...I keep going over this and you keep losing your ability to read or function apparently. Marines are a TOP tier army and W/L rate is meaningless in the extreme. As a perfect example of this point, https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/mwafv4qe
Battle in the Bush 2021:
1st Place: Space Marines
2nd Place: Space Marines
3rd Place: Space Marines
6th Place: Space Marines
7th Place: Space Marines
3 top 4 placings and 5 top 8 Placings. Guess what though? Overall the SM faction finished the tournament with a W/L rate of 34 wins and 30 losses. Most of those losses came from MIRROR matches because over 1/3rd of the event was SMs. BTW, SM finished with 3 of the top 4 spots, AND had the 3 of the bottom 4 spots. Which is what a lot of us have been saying for awhile, SMs get balanced out by having some of the worst players because its the de facto "Entry" level army.
Now if you want to sit there and tell me a faction, which can basically sweep the top rankings at a GT, isn't a top tier army I have to question your ability to reason properly. And BTW, the sub factions were in descending order: Blood Angels, White Scars, Dark Angels, Smurfs and Crimson fists.
Ordana wrote: But that is itself a problem. The last thing 8th needed was more power creed. The game has been to lethal for a while now and its only getting worse.
cynically I'll guess that the power creep will get turned down with one of the xenos factions who will become the basement dwellar for this edition. I remember after the feth storm that was 6th, everyone wanted the power creep turned down, so in 7th when Codex Orkz came out and was actually worse than their previous 4th edition codex and weaker than most armies 6th edition codex's there was hope that GW would turn down the lethality of the game a bit. And that belief was held tightly right up until Necrons, SM, Tau and Eldar came out and utterly destroyed the notion in its entirety.
This Field is 1/3 marines. If the game was balanced youd expect at least 1/3 of the top to be marines. But then you look further - who even knows what these "imperium" armies are bringing. The top WR armies are hardly represented.
1 Quinn army
3 Custodians
0 daemons
1 Sisters army
2 Necron
7 powerful armies that aren't marines. 13 marine armies. You'd expect these results.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
SemperMortis wrote: ...I keep going over this and you keep losing your ability to read or function apparently. Marines are a TOP tier army and W/L rate is meaningless in the extreme. As a perfect example of this point, https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/mwafv4qe
Battle in the Bush 2021:
1st Place: Space Marines
2nd Place: Space Marines
3rd Place: Space Marines
6th Place: Space Marines
7th Place: Space Marines
3 top 4 placings and 5 top 8 Placings. Guess what though? Overall the SM faction finished the tournament with a W/L rate of 34 wins and 30 losses. Most of those losses came from MIRROR matches because over 1/3rd of the event was SMs. BTW, SM finished with 3 of the top 4 spots, AND had the 3 of the bottom 4 spots. Which is what a lot of us have been saying for awhile, SMs get balanced out by having some of the worst players because its the de facto "Entry" level army.
Now if you want to sit there and tell me a faction, which can basically sweep the top rankings at a GT, isn't a top tier army I have to question your ability to reason properly. And BTW, the sub factions were in descending order: Blood Angels, White Scars, Dark Angels, Smurfs and Crimson fists.
First, I will completely agree that marines are a proper good army.
Second, you can't take this Aussie tournament and use it as the standard when the others had wildly different results.
Third, with that many marines the results are unsurprising, but despite all the marines a CSM list managed to pop in there.
Fourth, I will disagree on what you determine to be mirror matches. A mirror in terms of a game like Starcraft makes sense, because both players can deploy the same units and have exactly the same tools in hand. Tabletop wargaming does not offer that same flexibility.
Once CSM gets W2 and an updated codex are you going to consider a Night Lords Warp Talons list a mirror match to a WSVVLC list? Why or why not?
Are DG a mirror to DA? Why or why not?
Is an UM list with 3 dreads, 2 Stormtalons, and Bobby a mirror to BA with SG? Why or why not?
Rough footprint of the top 10 lists:
Spoiler:
#1 BA - SG, VV, and Attack Bikes
#2 WS - VV, BGV, and Attack Bikes
#3 DA - Tacs, Terminators, Speeders, and Devs #4 Custodes - Sagittarum, 1 Dread, Bikes
#5 CSM (IW) - 3 Decimators, 3 Greater Blight Drones, Nurglings
#6 UM - 3 Dreads, 2 Stormtalons, Devs, Bobby
#7 CF - 25 Intercessors, Aggressors, BGV, Inceptors, Hellblasters
#8 Necrons - SK, 40 Warriors, Scarabs
#9 DG - Mortys, PMs, Pox, Spawn, PBCs #10 Harlies - list is impossible to read well, but looks like standard fare
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: who even knows what these "imperium" armies are bringing.
I agree marines are a proper good army. But they are not top 3. I could go cherry pick some tournaments that have no marines in the top 4 too...it happens a lot actually. But who cares.
These tiny tournaments bear no more value than a typical sat in my garage or the game shop with 5/6 games going on at a time.
If there are marines on nearly every table. Marine armies are guaranteed to advance to the later rounds. I just can't help but laugh and pitty people who actaully degrade people who play marines as having a larger group of beginning players. LOL. In my experience new players usually start with orks or CSM because marines look like the good guys...and who likes good guys? Though they really aren't good guys. Imperium is evil AF.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/04 19:32:47
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You want to provide some examples of these soup lists your refering to as non of the top 3's from Australian January events contained any Knights or I think Admech.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
Xenomancers wrote: I agree marines are a proper good army. But they are not top 3. I could go cherry pick some tournaments that have no marines in the top 4 too...it happens a lot actually. But who cares.
These tiny tournaments bear no more value than a typical sat in my garage or the game shop with 5/6 games going on at a time.
If there are marines on nearly every table. Marine armies are guaranteed to advance to the later rounds. I just can't help but laugh and pitty people who actaully degrade people who play marines as having a larger group of beginning players. LOL. In my experience new players usually start with orks or CSM because marines look like the good guys...and who likes good guys? Though they really aren't good guys. Imperium is evil AF.
Man, it's so consistent I'm having troubles keeping to believe it's done on purpose.
- 190 games => tiny tournament
- like your garage (or even your FLGS) => how many games per year in your garage ? You would have to play every other day to get as much data. Which would be invalid anyway since the game moves forward faster than you can play games. Any set of data like this one is valuable if only just because it's data collected on a short period of time. It's a snapshot. Dunno why one tournament should hold more value than an other btw. There are no official tournaments and no leagues, so every tournament hold the same "value" as the other. It's debatable if using only one event as a talking point is fair but the results can't just be dissmissed.
- I can find tournament results => doesn't provide any.
- Marines have a larger group of beginning player, it's kind of a fact. It's the faction pushed by every box and every salesperson in GW shops. It has most releases, the best support, the most marketing and is the cheapest to collect. And it's quite juvenile to think it's "degrading".
Ice_can wrote: You want to provide some examples of these soup lists your refering to as non of the top 3's from Australian January events contained any Knights or I think Admech.
You have the list of the top 10 in his post, non are "Imperium", these lists aren't from the top but rather some Imperiums ones that took part in this event.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dysartes wrote: An Iron Worriers list with Greater Blight Drones? That's the FW one, right? Are they not DG? If not, that's a bit odd from the rules side of things.
"Greater Blight Drones" are CSM and "Deathguard Greater Blight Drones" are .. well you guessed it, DG. There is 2 entries in IA (and I assume it's the same model).
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2021/02/04 20:21:24
Xenomancers wrote: I agree marines are a proper good army. But they are not top 3. I could go cherry pick some tournaments that have no marines in the top 4 too...it happens a lot actually. But who cares.
These tiny tournaments bear no more value than a typical sat in my garage or the game shop with 5/6 games going on at a time.
If there are marines on nearly every table. Marine armies are guaranteed to advance to the later rounds. I just can't help but laugh and pitty people who actaully degrade people who play marines as having a larger group of beginning players. LOL. In my experience new players usually start with orks or CSM because marines look like the good guys...and who likes good guys? Though they really aren't good guys. Imperium is evil AF.
Man, it's so consistent I'm having troubles keeping to believe it's done on purpose.
- 190 games => tiny tournament
- like your garage (or even your FLGS) => how many games per year in your garage ? You would have to play every other day to get as much data. Which would be invalid anyway since the game moves forward faster than you can play games. Any set of data like this one is valuable if only just because it's data collected on a short period of time. It's a snapshot. Dunno why one tournament should hold more value than an other btw. There are no official tournaments and no leagues, so every tournament hold the same "value" as the other. It's debatable if using only one event as a talking point is fair but the results can't just be dissmissed.
- I can find tournament results => doesn't provide any.
- Marines have a larger group of beginning player, it's kind of a fact. It's the faction pushed by every box and every salesperson in GW shops. It has most releases, the best support, the most marketing and is the cheapest to collect. And it's quite juvenile to think it's "degrading".
Ice_can wrote: You want to provide some examples of these soup lists your refering to as non of the top 3's from Australian January events contained any Knights or I think Admech.
You have the list of the top 10 in his post, non are "Imperium", these lists aren't from the top but rather some Imperiums ones that took part in this event.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dysartes wrote: An Iron Worriers list with Greater Blight Drones? That's the FW one, right? Are they not DG? If not, that's a bit odd from the rules side of things.
"Greater Blight Drones" are CSM and "Deathguard Greater Blight Drones" are .. well you guessed it, DG. There is 2 entries in IA (and I assume it's the same model).
Your typical local event has 20-25 players at least the ones in my area. This has 38. It's not a major even until you have 50 players. Also - when I start seeing team names next to players...I instantly stop caring about the data. If you don't think teams will throw matches to help their team mates...you are a legit ding dong. In fact there was a recent bout of top players in the US getting caught doing exactly that and the tournament results were expunged.
Marines have a larger player base. It is fact. They don't have a larger beginner player base % wise and tournaments are majority experienced players anyways. Beginners can be drawn to SM - or another army. It is literally - personal preference what players are drawn to. True some people might be drawn to the game through a starter box which has a good chance to have marines in it. They might be drawn to a particular model or playing an army that no one plays. There is really no reason to believe that more marine players are beginners than any other army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/04 20:53:58
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I think the issue you have is that top 3 is a bit meaningless right now.
Marines can win tournaments. As can Daemons. Harlequins. Sisters of Battle. Necrons. Custodes. Presumably nu-DG.
By 40k's standards the meta is incredibly healthy if you are not playing one of the sadly unloved and unlamented factions. (We better nerf Tau Commanders again.)
Xeno once again exposing that he knows absolutely nothing about the tournament scene and has probably never attended a tournament in his life.
Tournament attendees are overwhelmingly not hardcore competitive players. 80% of your average tourny players will be there to show up, roll some dice, meet new people and have some fun. They're not casual, but they aren't hyper-competitive either. In fact the majority of players I've played vs in tournaments have been people deliberately and knowingly running weak or sub-optimal lists because they just want to run the army they like and want to have a fun day/weekend playing 40k. And of that subset of people they overwhelmingly play Marines more than any other army; they were playing Marines in the middle of 8th when the Codex was considered ultra-weak and they'll keep on playing Marines now that the army is strong. During the middle of 8th I was coming across so many Marine armies still (although half of them had added a single knight to their lists)
This isn't some fething dig at Marines or people who play them either. It's an army marketed towards beginners and has a load of support and literature poured into it to make people invest and buy into it more and more. Not everyone has the time, money or inclination to play 40k like Nick Nanavati or Richard Siegler where they are literally trading or borrowing other people's models in order to optimize lists and keep up with or forge the meta. Most people at a tournament are taking what they happen to have on hand and making do with it and for the vaaaaast majority of the 40k population that army is Marines.
"Starting with CSM or Orks" what the feth are you smoking lmao. Literal delusion.