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Indeed, your will, your very vitality drains you as soon as you sit in the seat in a tank... Even the most inspiring speeches bounce off of your gathering emotional armor, and cries for support or orders to engage roll harmlessly across you like rain. Fighting harder in the presence of your captain only applies to others, for you, you are the Tank Man, and you shall know no inspiration!
Is that Captain even in your vehicle's very limited field of view? Are the comms clear enough that you can hear them over the constant hiss of static? Does your vehicle even have a tank phone for the sergeant to pick up and talk to the crew on?
Indeed, your will, your very vitality drains you as soon as you sit in the seat in a tank... Even the most inspiring speeches bounce off of your gathering emotional armor, and cries for support or orders to engage roll harmlessly across you like rain. Fighting harder in the presence of your captain only applies to others, for you, you are the Tank Man, and you shall know no inspiration!
Is that Captain even in your vehicle's very limited field of view? Are the comms clear enough that you can hear them over the constant hiss of static? Does your vehicle even have a tank phone for the sergeant to pick up and talk to the crew on?
Radio ranges are shorter than the range for most small arms if we look at IG vox-casters. Marines tend to get better gear but it's still easy to picture a man shouting being easier to understand than a voice over your headset, especially when you can't see the speaker through your limited vision blocks.
Radio ranges are shorter than the range for most small arms if we look at IG vox-casters. Marines tend to get better gear but it's still easy to picture a man shouting being easier to understand than a voice over your headset, especially when you can't see the speaker through your limited vision blocks.
Not buying it, personally. There are probably numerous examoles of the tanks of various faction getting clear, long distance communication in their vehicles.
Radio ranges are shorter than the range for most small arms if we look at IG vox-casters. Marines tend to get better gear but it's still easy to picture a man shouting being easier to understand than a voice over your headset, especially when you can't see the speaker through your limited vision blocks.
Vox-casters receive orders and the guy carrying them transmits them to those around them. They aren't transmitting to guardsmen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/02 19:05:16
Damage charts changed for 5th, and it was noticeable on the tabletop as Space Marine armies looked like parking lots upon deployment.
Okay, for 3e: the mean number of hits to destroy a: Predator: 5 hits Leman Russ: 10 hits
That's a less pronounced increase than going from 18 to 7, but 10 to 7 is still a fairly substantial increase.
Also, I personally think 5e was the height of the ruleset for the subject at hand . I had lots of tanks, my opponent had lots of tanks, mech infantry was good, it was fun and the game, at least for my playgroup, was very mobile as a consequence.
Did you include flanking and disabling shots? Because that's going to have a big effect (and did during those editions). I spent a lot of time hitting LR's enough so that they couldn't fire, in effect suppressing them while my Marines did whatever they needed to do otherwise.
With disabling (Stun/Shaking) if I'm following your math correctly I get: Predator: 3 hits against front armor (.5x.666 = .333), 2 hits against side armor (.83 x .666 = .55) Leman Russ: 5 hits against front armor (.333 x .666 = .22), 2.5 hits against side armor (.666 x .666 = .44)*
This is still not accounting for the Weapon Destroyed result in which taking out that Battle Cannon was the goal (Because Marines were rightfully very scared of the BC)
I personally liked 3rd and 4th more than 5th. 4th in particular.
*12 armor on the side of the LR in 3-4 as discussed in the other thread.
Stunned and shaken aren't destroyed. Your first point was "A Lascannon can one-shot a tank", which yes, it could, but that's how everything that could kill a tank killed a tank. With the exception of the less the 0.6% chance of a double-immobilized, every single AT system worked by one-shotting a tank against a relatively low probability, which, for the Lascannon, was low to the point of requiring more shots on average to destroy a vehicle than the modern lascannon. Especially compared to the actual legitimate heavy AT weapons like the Railcannon or Vanquisher, which I would say were a lot closer to one-hit-one-kill weapons. They still weren't, but 60% to pen from a Vanq is a lot higher than 16%, and should translate to a much greater effect than a Lascannon.
And weapon destroyed requires # of guns +2 to destroy the tank IIRC, so I didn't account for it because either tank has enough guns that it's probability of being destroyed by repeated weapon destroyed is pretty nil.
A Lascannon also essentially can't flank a gun tank unless it's owner let to do so or it's on a vehicle [in which case, there's almost certainly a more worthwhile weapon to use your 1 weapon firing while moving on], because it's a heavy weapon and can't fire on the move. That's also a completely different condition.
I think we're at a point where I'm unsatisfied with the fact that infantry AT teams feel unduly effective against tanks compared to a goddamn antitank gun that outweighs all three or four gunners and their guns combined, particularly the fact that a crappy man-portable recoilless rifle equivalent thing that's only slightly better than an RPG is somehow equally powerful to or more powerful than a heavy railcannon or a long-barreled smooth-bore APFSDS tank cannon, and you're unsatisfied with said shoulder-fired light at weapon not one-sh
Well it's true, they could one-shot a tank (and they can't do that now). But also they had a good chance of essentially removing it from offensive action for a turn, which was very important. (They also cannot do that now). What it meant was that a squad armed appropriately had a higher chance of effectively engaging a vehicle at range. Even isolated, a squad could effectively suppress the vehicle with a higher reliability. And the utility a single AT weapon brought against lighter vehicles was much greater.
As for flanking. . . Those were the good days when armies didn't blob up for auras. Spreading out your forces to force flank shots was plenty doable. Plus, you could mount Lascannons on other vehicles which could move and fire. Personally I teleported Terminators quite a bit, and the Assault Cannon did excellent work on vehicles with the 4th ed Rend rules.
I agree that the vehicle mounted anti-tank weapons are often dissapointing. The Tau Railgun is particularly embarassing. But I do like my Lascannons on my Marines, and they used to have more utility. I am all for the high tech infantry AT guns being very effective though. I prefer the balance shifted more towards infantry than you, I think. Either way, I very much agree that the one-shot-kill damage model was better than the current paradigm of grinding down a health bar.
That said, I also miss how scary those Battle Cannons were against Marines. It was tense times, fishing for a disabled tank with my rolls while knowing the template could land smack in the middle of my squad and annihilate them.
(And if you think the Lascannon was too effective as an infantry-carried AT gun, wait till you learn about the 2nd Ed Multimelta).
Furthermore along this line - In previous editions there was almost no split-fire (Longfangs being an exception). Your 10-man Tac Squad with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher was usually wasting the fire of the 9 other marines (that normally couldn't harm AV11+) in that unit if the Devastator targeted a tank/walker. Additionally - for most previous editions, if one member of the unit moved the Devastator couldn't fire.
Back in 2nd edition weapon damaged was not limited to d6's; 2d4 or 1d12 damage was fairly common & IIRC there was a very rare infantry-carried weapon that did 1d20 damage.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/02/02 19:48:58
"The only problem with your genepool is that there wasn't a lifeguard on duty to prevent you from swimming."
"You either die a Morty, or you live long enough to see yourself become a Rick."
Radio ranges are shorter than the range for most small arms if we look at IG vox-casters. Marines tend to get better gear but it's still easy to picture a man shouting being easier to understand than a voice over your headset, especially when you can't see the speaker through your limited vision blocks.
Vox-casters receive orders and the guy carrying them transmits them to those around them. They aren't transmitting to guardsmen.
Sometimes? The fluff runs the gamut from 'nothing' to 'vox-casters only' to 'everyone has vox-beads.' (earpieces). The first two are closer to the 'WWI in Space!' design of the early imperial guard concept, the latter is more in line with 21st century expectations of what's baseline for an army with laser weapons and spaceships. When you've got entire worlds dedicated to manufacturing (on an exploitative scale that makes high-intensity sweatshops look reasonable), a billion wifi enabled Ipods to go with the billion soldiers is basically nothing.
Insectum7 wrote: Not buying it, personally. There are probably numerous examoles of the tanks of various faction getting clear, long distance communication in their vehicles.
Then let's look at modern armies with highly integrated communications. You're still going to see a major issue with communications between tanks and infantry units. It boils down to half the time the tank can't see what you're talking about and the other half of the time it can't hear what they're saying over the sounds of gunfire. That's why so much infantry to infantry communication is non-verbal.
Sometimes? The fluff runs the gamut from 'nothing' to 'vox-casters only' to 'everyone has vox-beads.' (earpieces). The first two are closer to the 'WWI in Space!' design of the early imperial guard concept, the latter is more in line with 21st century expectations of what's baseline for an army with laser weapons and spaceships. When you've got entire worlds dedicated to manufacturing (on an exploitative scale that makes high-intensity sweatshops look reasonable), a billion wifi enabled Ipods to go with the billion soldiers is basically nothing.
Specifically for IG, it's as I described.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/02 21:39:07
Sometimes? The fluff runs the gamut from 'nothing' to 'vox-casters only' to 'everyone has vox-beads.' (earpieces). The first two are closer to the 'WWI in Space!' design of the early imperial guard concept, the latter is more in line with 21st century expectations of what's baseline for an army with laser weapons and spaceships. When you've got entire worlds dedicated to manufacturing (on an exploitative scale that makes high-intensity sweatshops look reasonable), a billion wifi enabled Ipods to go with the billion soldiers is basically nothing.
Specifically for IG, it's as I described.
Some IG companies wear fully enclosed armor, carry the finest las-weapons in the galaxy, and get the best of the best for vox-equipment. Other companies get sticks with rags on the ends of them and only every third man even gets a weapon.
Insectum7 wrote: Not buying it, personally. There are probably numerous examoles of the tanks of various faction getting clear, long distance communication in their vehicles.
Then let's look at modern armies with highly integrated communications. You're still going to see a major issue with communications between tanks and infantry units. It boils down to half the time the tank can't see what you're talking about and the other half of the time it can't hear what they're saying over the sounds of gunfire. That's why so much infantry to infantry communication is non-verbal.
For what it's worth the sound of gunfire is noticeably quieter inside the tank than outside. Because there's several inches or more of steel/fancy-stuff between people's ears and the noise. To to mention the intercom is in headsets covering their ears.
"They can't hear" is a very poor excuse.
Nor is visibility generally that bad, especially if the person you're looking for is just a 10ft tall blue superhuman standing just a few yards away.
Not that a captain waving around nearby improving accuracy makes much sense.
kirotheavenger wrote: For what it's worth the sound of gunfire is noticeably quieter inside the tank than outside. Because there's several inches or more of steel/fancy-stuff between people's ears and the noise. To to mention the intercom is in headsets covering their ears.
Yeah, but my comment wasn't about that. It was about the gunfire overwhelming the voice of the infantry man/commander standing a few yards away trying to speak to them via comms. His mic can't be protected from the sounds of battle around him.
Nor is visibility generally that bad, especially if the person you're looking for is just a 10ft tall blue superhuman standing just a few yards away.
Not that a captain waving around nearby improving accuracy makes much sense.
Have you seen how poor the vision from inside an AFV can be? Even in modern tanks with fancy things like monitors mounted at the commander's station a tank is mostly blind and deaf compared to the infantry outside of it. Thus to watch that inspiring speech they'd either need the tank pointed at him, the turret pointed at him, or the commander's sight pointed at him which means one of three very important crewmen aren't currently looking at the enemy.
While CORE is disappointingly applied and wonky in terms of relating to fluff, is it really one of the top 5 problems with 9th? Hell, cutting it down to just 5 seems like picking out your five favorite infections on a hospital floor.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
Have you seen how poor the vision from inside an AFV can be? Even in modern tanks with fancy things like monitors mounted at the commander's station a tank is mostly blind and deaf compared to the infantry outside of it. Thus to watch that inspiring speech they'd either need the tank pointed at him, the turret pointed at him, or the commander's sight pointed at him which means one of three very important crewmen aren't currently looking at the enemy.
Non of which matters because CORE has literally nothing at all to do with "inspiration". Are we seriously saying that, mid battle, everyone is stopping, looking at the captain and following along with the impromptu speech he has decided to give (via what essentially amounts to pantomime according to what you're saying)?
No. I don't think we are. Plus, again, if you're going to say it's about inspiration - then no one in the Necron book should really get it. Ditto putting it on Rubrics ... That's just not what it's about. But that's the issue - GW decided they didn't want Captains in the back buffing tanks as that is decidedly "un-Marine-like". But rather than just say "Auras don't apply to vehicles unless the Aura specifically states otherwise", they ham-fisted a new concept into their keywords. One that they didn't REALLY think out.
So they made this elegant system to be able to target and fix issues like this in a pinpoint, strategic manner, and then used it to create a rule that basically sledge hammers everything.
While CORE is disappointingly applied and wonky in terms of relating to fluff, is it really one of the top 5 problems with 9th? Hell, cutting it down to just 5 seems like picking out your five favorite infections on a hospital floor.
Agreed. It's an issue, but more of an annoyance and something to shake the head at. I don't think it's a MAJOR issue. But it is just so much fun to rag on.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Tycho wrote: Non of which matters because CORE has literally nothing at all to do with "inspiration". Are we seriously saying that, mid battle, everyone is stopping, looking at the captain and following along with the impromptu speech he has decided to give (via what essentially amounts to pantomime according to what you're saying)?
Who said anything about inspiration? A unit leader is vital on the battlefield and does give their unit a real tangible boost by communicating with their team. This could easily be modeled as an aura. This aura shouldn't apply to a plane flying overhead, a tank rumbling past, or a skimmer roaring around them.
No. I don't think we are. Plus, again, if you're going to say it's about inspiration - then no one in the Necron book should really get it. Ditto putting it on Rubrics ... That's just not what it's about. But that's the issue - GW decided they didn't want Captains in the back buffing tanks as that is decidedly "un-Marine-like". But rather than just say "Auras don't apply to vehicles unless the Aura specifically states otherwise", they ham-fisted a new concept into their keywords. One that they didn't REALLY think out.
The Necron auras make sense if you assume that their leaders can override certain parameters of the base programming for the units around them. The units that can't be buffed by those specific auras are either too corrupted (Destroyers) or require a different override (Crypteks). This fits the fluff and works within the rules we've been given, the same as the Space Marine rules do. If you want different Necron fluff that's an entirely different kettle of fish.
Yeah, but my comment wasn't about that. It was about the gunfire overwhelming the voice of the infantry man/commander standing a few yards away trying to speak to them via comms. His mic can't be protected from the sounds of battle around him.
The mic is right next to the captain's face and very far away from the enemy's guns. It may even be inside his helmet or be a throat mic so even less sensitive.
Certainly modern militaries seem to be able to communicate whilst in the middle of a firefight.
I don't think you have much of a leg here, especially if you're implying that this wouldn't be a problem infantry has. If background gunfire is so loud through the captain's mic, how can they hear him? When their ears are directly exposed to the same gunfire?
Canadian 5th wrote: Have you seen how poor the vision from inside an AFV can be? Even in modern tanks with fancy things like monitors mounted at the commander's station a tank is mostly blind and deaf compared to the infantry outside of it. Thus to watch that inspiring speech they'd either need the tank pointed at him, the turret pointed at him, or the commander's sight pointed at him which means one of three very important crewmen aren't currently looking at the enemy.
I have actually. The commander has vision blocks around his cupola offering 360 degree vision, the driver, gunner, and loader also probably have traversible periscopes. You don't necessarily need a fancy-pants high zoom night vision optic to see the giant blue super human six feet away.
Plus the whole concept is a little absurd. Why does the captain yelling and pantomiming help the tank at all? Astartes are extremely highly trained individuals that should already have a pretty solid idea of end of the bolter to point at the enemy.
kirotheavenger wrote: The mic is right next to the captain's face and very far away from the enemy's guns. It may even be inside his helmet or be a throat mic so even less sensitive. Certainly modern militaries seem to be able to communicate whilst in the middle of a firefight.
I don't think you have much of a leg here, especially if you're implying that this wouldn't be a problem infantry has. If background gunfire is so loud through the captain's mic, how can they hear him? When their ears are directly exposed to the same gunfire?
On the ground, they use a lot of hand signals because if your own unit is returning fire nobody nearby is going to be able to hear feth all. If they want to make a radio call they have to hunker down a while and make sure they can be understood. If they want to chat with a tank the best way is to get up behind it and use the tank phone hanging off the back, this can be hard to do in combat because the tank needs to be still for this to work. This is all really basic stuff and that you're disputing it shows you really have no idea what you're talking about.
I have actually. The commander has vision blocks around his cupola offering 360 degree vision, the driver, gunner, and loader also probably have traversible periscopes.
These all offer a much narrower field of view than unobstructed views of the battlefield and it's not at all uncommon for a tank to miss another tank or anti-tank gun let alone a silly man in power armor.
Plus the whole concept is a little absurd. Why does the captain yelling and pantomiming help the tank at all? Astartes are extremely highly trained individuals that should already have a pretty solid idea of end of the bolter to point at the enemy.
If that's true why do Marines have ranks at all? Surely a Sergeant has some value in the midst of a firefight or they wouldn't bother with the role.
Go back through the thread and read the entire conversation about this. You came in right in the middle and apparently missed some things ...
A unit leader is vital on the battlefield and does give their unit a real tangible boost by communicating with their team. This could easily be modeled as an aura. This aura shouldn't apply to a plane flying overhead, a tank rumbling past, or a skimmer roaring around them.
Uh - huh. So Forward Observers don't make A10s or long range tank fire more accurate? Got it.
But that's besides the point. I game terms, if GW didn't want Captains Auras to apply to tanks (which, honestly they probably shouldn't), they picked the sloppiest way possible to get that done. It's classic GW. We have a few very limited specific examples of problem units. Let's do damage to everyone in order to fix it ... CORE is a completely needless rule.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Indeed, your will, your very vitality drains you as soon as you sit in the seat in a tank... Even the most inspiring speeches bounce off of your gathering emotional armor, and cries for support or orders to engage roll harmlessly across you like rain. Fighting harder in the presence of your captain only applies to others, for you, you are the Tank Man, and you shall know no inspiration!
Is that Captain even in your vehicle's very limited field of view? Are the comms clear enough that you can hear them over the constant hiss of static? Does your vehicle even have a tank phone for the sergeant to pick up and talk to the crew on?
Can't say if it is true for all other marines, but for GK, the captin or grandmaster can take over a targeting of another brothers termintor suit and guid their shooting with both a tech and psychic component. Same way with tanks, GK leaders often us psychic link with the vehicles operators to drop in specific places, perform specific manouvers or shot specific targets in specific places.
Regular marines shouldn't be able to do a lot less then that, specially those that aren't in feral or penitent chapters.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
kirotheavenger wrote: The mic is right next to the captain's face and very far away from the enemy's guns. It may even be inside his helmet or be a throat mic so even less sensitive. Certainly modern militaries seem to be able to communicate whilst in the middle of a firefight.
I don't think you have much of a leg here, especially if you're implying that this wouldn't be a problem infantry has. If background gunfire is so loud through the captain's mic, how can they hear him? When their ears are directly exposed to the same gunfire?
On the ground, they use a lot of hand signals because if your own unit is returning fire nobody nearby is going to be able to hear feth all.
Tycho wrote: ...Uh - huh. So Forward Observers don't make A10s or long range tank fire more accurate? Got it...
Do forward observers stand next to the A10 or the tank and shout at the pilot/tank crew? That kind of thing is way better-represented by Markerlights than character reroll bubbles.
Some IG companies wear fully enclosed armor, carry the finest las-weapons in the galaxy, and get the best of the best for vox-equipment. Other companies get sticks with rags on the ends of them and only every third man even gets a weapon.
Tycho wrote: Go back through the thread and read the entire conversation about this. You came in right in the middle and apparently missed some things ...
So I'm obligated to agree with another poster just because now...?
Uh - huh. So Forward Observers don't make A10s or long range tank fire more accurate? Got it.
They don't if they stand within arms reach of them to ensure they stay within an aura.
Have you ever seen how a military squad communicates on a march? A fist raised for stop, fingers raised for eyes to tell others to watch, a finger circled over one's head for on me. There is a ton of what amounts to sign language both for the purposes of making as little noise as possible and being understood when even yelling won't make you heard. Again, this is really basic stuff and if you don't know it please educate yourself before arguing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 02:51:37
Insectum7 wrote: ^But do they use it for inspirational speeches? I'm just imagining you pitching that idea for a scene in a movie, for example.
No, but that isn't how a leader on a battlefield actually increases combat effectiveness. Yes, some generals did seem to inspire certain qualities in their men however they didn't do it within a fixed radius around themselves and would, in 40k terms, be best treated as an army-wide buff bought with CP pre game.
Okay, you guys are getting so many miles off topic. The moist defecate that is the Core system is merely symptomatic of the Rules Bloat problem, which I would argue is one of the big 5, presented here in no particular order:
Rules Bloat
This has to be the least elegantly designed game I've ever seen; How do you make a D6-based system this clunky? Well, you start by calling every instance of a rule something different, then add supplements on Codexes on Subfactions on Stratagem Trait Relic FAQs for 28 factions and 10 supplements with Doctrines, Superdoctrines, and 67.3 variations on the word "Bolt." And yet they stop at giving out cost variations for all of these rules. This one isn't going to get any better anytime soon; each new codex feels more bloated and silly than the last.
Mission Variety
Possibly in a vain effort to balance this festering Great Unclean One of rules, Matched play has only one mission. It is a decently interesting mission with a lot of variations, but there is only one, and the most fun I had with the edition was not while playing it, I assure you; that honor goes to a 4-player Chaos-god Carnage mission. But so much is balanced around it in a system that used to have so many more interesting and varied objectives that it feels monotonous.
Release Schedule
This goes for both the models and the codexes. My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that all the 9th codexes exist in some form that has been at least partially playtested, so why do we not have them yet? With such a massive power gap between 8th and 9th and most of the factions that have received codexes thus far not having been the ones that really need it, it really feels awful having all this diarrhea drip-fed in an arbitrarily filtered slurry. Meanwhile, some factions have entire new model ranges shoved down their throats while others languish in models that haven't been updated since 3rd edition - Check me on this, Eldar players, 2nd in some cases?
Poor Faction Equality
It's not just about who is strongest at the moment, it's about who gets the most stuff, and Marines get release after release after release, rules, models, everything. We've got entire threads about this one too.
Obsolete Business Model
Physical codex books are outdated; the need to FAQ and patch them means they quickly become useless as rules guides. I've gone on about this at length before in every third post I make.
Their ridiculous model prices, likewise cannot be sustainable long term. With the rise of 3D printing (You can get decent resin printers for about $200-$250USD now) you can make your own miniatures for so much cheaper; With a little learning, they can be heavily customized to your preferences. Citadel Quality can only hold so much water, as many of the minis you can print on budget resin printers are flat out better looking than GWs, especially in ranges GW hasn't bothered to update since 3rd edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 04:53:39
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
On the ground, they use a lot of hand signals because if your own unit is returning fire nobody nearby is going to be able to hear feth all. If they want to make a radio call they have to hunker down a while and make sure they can be understood. If they want to chat with a tank the best way is to get up behind it and use the tank phone hanging off the back, this can be hard to do in combat because the tank needs to be still for this to work. This is all really basic stuff and that you're disputing it shows you really have no idea what you're talking about..
Whoa there Tiger.
You never mentioned tank telephones. The infantry use tank telephones because they aren't equipped with radios linked to the tank. But especially when you're talking about the Astartes, when every single one has a box bead integrated into their helmet or earpiece I assume that's no longer an issue, they can just vox the tank directly.
As for hand signals, they're great for short ranged silent communication, which is why they're often used by infantry at squad level. There's no reason for a Space Marine Captain to be directing his tank solely via hand signals, especially given the box mentioned previously. It's not like infantry don't speak either... It even that a tank would be incapable of seeing the 8ft tall blue superhuman waving them forwards or whatever.
Missing an enemy tank hiding behind s bush 2 kilometers away is a whole other kettle of fish to that.
I totally agree on rules bloat. As soon as they started giving loads of unique faction rules and strategems and such I realised they had trimmed the rulebook way down just to add all that complexity back on as a giant spaghetti mess squirted across all the factions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/03 07:55:59
CEO Kasen wrote: Okay, you guys are getting so many miles off topic. The moist defecate that is the Core system is merely symptomatic of the Rules Bloat problem, which I would argue is one of the big 5, presented here in no particular order:
Rules Bloat
This has to be the least elegantly designed game I've ever seen; How do you make a D6-based system this clunky? Well, you start by calling every instance of a rule something different, then add supplements on Codexes on Subfactions on Stratagem Trait Relic FAQs for 28 factions and 10 supplements with Doctrines, Superdoctrines, and 67.3 variations on the word "Bolt." And yet they stop at giving out cost variations for all of these rules. This one isn't going to get any better anytime soon; each new codex feels more bloated and silly than the last.
The index era had issues indeed. But it was a LEAP in the right direction, meanwhile 9th started out with insta FAQ for all marines loyalists, for changes that we know were applicable to all other types of marines, which didn't get them as of yet but had the privilege to pay for their better stats already. Not to mention the first iterations of adapted 9th rules for the FAQ'ed loyalists, whilest the rest, if lucky, got updates to weaponry...
Goes to show, how little GW cares overall when it wouldn't have taken significantly longer to propperly adapt the rules.
Also PA "Written with 9th in mind" meanwhile we have rules in PA and relics that don't work anymore, thank god though for the loyalist update... right lads...
Mission Variety
Possibly in a vain effort to balance this festering Great Unclean One of rules, Matched play has only one mission. It is a decently interesting mission with a lot of variations, but there is only one, and the most fun I had with the edition was not while playing it, I assure you; that honor goes to a 4-player Chaos-god Carnage mission. But so much is balanced around it in a system that used to have so many more interesting and varied objectives that it feels monotonous.
i sit in lockdown, still, it was never difficult to tell gw missions to go bend over and have more fun regardless if competitive inclined or narrative by doing your own thing, so not surprising.
Release Schedule
This goes for both the models and the codexes. My understanding - and correct me if I'm wrong on this - is that all the 9th codexes exist in some form that has been at least partially playtested, so why do we not have them yet? With such a massive power gap between 8th and 9th and most of the factions that have received codexes thus far not having been the ones that really need it, it really feels awful having all this diarrhea drip-fed in an arbitrarily filtered slurry. Meanwhile, some factions have entire new model ranges shoved down their throats while others languish in models that haven't been updated since 3rd edition - Check me on this, Eldar players, 2nd in some cases?
Poor Faction Equality
It's not just about who is strongest at the moment, it's about who gets the most stuff, and Marines get release after release after release, rules, models, everything. We've got entire threads about this one too.
Actually it's in essence the same point.
GW did good with releasing the CA pts for free, that's the only improvement i know though...
And agreed on the release schedule, it' gets a bit silly when we have the x ammount of marine resculpts in the same time it took for csm's to be updated once... Not even going to go into the Eldar range ... that is just a sad exemple by this point.
Obsolete Business Model
Physical codex books are outdated; the need to FAQ and patch them means they quickly become useless as rules guides. I've gone on about this at length before in every third post I make.
I think GW is aware of 3d printing, and therefore selling books, it's easy to monetise the older playerbase over that , and also easier to protect per IP law then customized miniatures. It's also why we see this flurry off rules releases...
Their ridiculous model prices, likewise cannot be sustainable long term. With the rise of 3D printing (You can get decent resin printers for about $200-$250USD now) you can make your own miniatures for so much cheaper; With a little learning, they can be heavily customized to your preferences. Citadel Quality can only hold so much water, as many of the minis you can print on budget resin printers are flat out better looking than GWs, especially in ranges GW hasn't bothered to update since 3rd edition.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Insectum7 wrote: ^But do they use it for inspirational speeches? I'm just imagining you pitching that idea for a scene in a movie, for example.
No, but that isn't how a leader on a battlefield actually increases combat effectiveness. Yes, some generals did seem to inspire certain qualities in their men however they didn't do it within a fixed radius around themselves and would, in 40k terms, be best treated as an army-wide buff bought with CP pre game.
Right. They're not using hand signals for inspirational speeches.
Yes the best "Commander" rule for Space Marines ever was 4th edition Litanies of Battle, which gave every marine on the table Ld 10 when if your Captain was on the table. Later they shrunk that rule to just Sicarius. In 4th it was even better though, because squads had to take an Ld test to fire at not-the-closest target. This meant Space Marines with a Captain had better fire discipline than nearly everybody.
So picking up CEO Kasen's call to get this thread back on track, my top 5 problems of 9th so far. Note that while I'm a huge fan of 9th and think it's the best game so far, but it still isn't perfect:
1) Starting the game takes too long. Picking secondaries/agendas, complicated mission set-ups that require lots of measuring, terrain has to be distributed after mission has been rolled and the fun, but time consuming alternate deployment minigame is back. While the games (turn 1-5) finish earlier and more consistently now, it takes a lot more time before the first models start to move.
2) Too many bad secondaries, too many automatic choices When 9th was released I was thrilled about all the new secondary missions, performing actions, psychic rituals, keeping a tally of killed models, racing to kill the warlord - infinite possibilities! Now, after playing the game surprisingly regularly (considering the circumstances) for half a year, it has become clear that picking objectives always boils to the same few things, making missions no more varred than when the secondaries were Linebreaker, Slay the Warlord and First Blood. Some mission secondaries change up the game a little, but most are either just variants of other secondaries or too hard too archive so one never bothers. Especially action and psychic actions feel like so much wasted potential, all of them are too limited who can perform them where and when, so either you have the ones which allow no counter-play which are good, and al of those which do allow counter-play are worthless. The ritual is an awesome idea, but it requires so much investment and all it needs to drop to 0 VP is two denies. It has so many points of failure that it should instantly win you the game if you ever manage to pull it off. All of the actions should be reworked that they are much easier to start and gain more partial VP, but allow more counter-play from opponents. And I agree, you should not be able to draw secondary missions from more than one book. Either do basic space marines, or supplement, not both.
3) Keyword rampage Try figuring out what the difference between stratagems affecting BUBONIC ASTARTES, DEATH GUARD INFANTRY, DEATH GUARD CORE, BUBONIC ASTARTES CORE and HERETIC ASTARTES is, and you will know what I mean. I see what they did there, but it didn't go well. I'm working with software every day, so I managed to eventually parse the differences, but the threads about this clearly show that others struggle.
4) 9th codex vs 8th codex Playing with DG against Marines or Necrons feels like a level playing field, playing with orks against any flavor of eldar, CSM or nids does as well. If you mix those groups you suddenly find yourself fighting an uphill battle against a 9th edition codex or a game set to "beginner" when playing the 9th edition codex yourself. It's not as bad as pre-decurion codices vs post-decurion codices in 7th, but it sure feels similar. The big difference is that a 9th edition codex is not dragging around any bad choices because they have to, while 8th edition codices often have to bring along things that don't work well, simply because they have no other choice. The managed to release indexes for the space marine supplements, they surely could have done that for all the codices? Once again it feels like printing books is holding them back.
5) Fortifications Fortifications are essentially unusable due to the 3" rule. This rule need a major overhaul to make them usable without house rules.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/02/03 11:49:52
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
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