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Voss wrote:

Cronch wrote:
you can make each individual ork hand-crafted with little details, on the tabletop it's still going to be a green-gunmetal blob of 100+ models.

Ah. Time to break out the cardboard chits and not bother with miniatures then.

Nope. Handcrafting every single boy is one of the best parts of playing orks, only topped by hand-crafting nobz because they haven even more options.

I'm also convinced that this joy will disappear when ork boyz become "glue the right-arm-front-torso-left-leg piece to the left-arm-back-torso-right-leg piece" models like all the DG models are. I don't think there are a lot of models where you can do no more than switch a single arm for exactly one other arm and a choice of two heads. Pretty much impossible to customize them without a knife, not even headswaps.

Also remember that orks have three different kits with the legs and torso back joined, and the torso front and neck as a separate piece- nobz, stormboyz, and flash gitz

Cronch wrote:
you can make each individual ork hand-crafted with little details, on the tabletop it's still going to be a green-gunmetal blob of 100+ models.

Which is what is desired. Orks look better when at a distance it's one large mob of angry hooligans, but looking in close you notice those little touches added to each individual boy. Vs when you looking out into the mass of 90 or so boys and still go "wait, did I see the same model twice?". That's more the issue with GW's dynamic, mono posed models: They look nice and stand out, but when you have many of them it makes them both harder to be individual but also harder for them to blend in with the other models.

 dan2026 wrote:
Ork players don't want new models? Fine.

Eldar players are desperate for them.

Orks players don't want new models that invalidate older ones. It happened since 7th with most of the new releases: Mek Gunz invalidated Big Gunz, all the new buggies invalidated the old buggies, new Ghaz invalidated old Ghaz.

I'm sure eldar players don't want that either.

New releases are cool when they are like sisters infantries and their tanks or necron warriors, just updated versions of some already existing kits. There's also plenty of new releases that ork players will love cause there is no plastic model. Modern deffkoptas, mad dok or warboss would be awesome. A couple of new characters would be amazing. New boyz? Everyone already has loads of them, and many of us still have to paint a significant number of infantry green skins.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Also remember that orks have three different kits with the legs and torso back joined, and the torso front and neck as a separate piece- nobz, stormboyz, and flash gitz

Correct. There’s a fine line between just enough and too much monopose for Orks. I can take Nobz and make a whole bunch of other units/individual models. Nob Bikers, Painboyz, squad nobz for 3 different units, Nob with Waaagh Banner, Meks, etc just by taking arms and bits from other Orks. I also don’t mind having the Black Reach Boyz for the bulk of my army because the option to make other boyz that offer variety still exists. If I want a Evil Sunz army where all the boyz are shirtless I can do that using both GW and third party bits. All because GW designed the kits to be compatible with each other, including the monopose bodies like Nobz.

The models released with Speed Freeks offer no customization, and the drivers sculpts are in a completely different style than the 2014 and older models, and look more Orruky than Orky. That was bad news and just about killed my interest In Ork models, though Ghaz reestablished some of it. Hopefully GW keeps the interchangeability the old Orks and even the new CSM have (to a degree, it’s nice that I can put the Havok weapons on the regular CSM bodies).

SoD warband for AoS Underworlds is in feb. Maybe lizardmen for Match, and SoulBlight for April. It leaves BoneSplitterz for May possibly. Maybe a shared month for a 40k ork surprise?

Aren't the Nobz and Flash Gitz kits completely interchangeable?

 Crimson wrote:
That would have been far less awkward.

You think insta-invalidating every Marine army on the planet overnight would have been 'less awkward'.

Look, I know you love your Primaris Marines with every fibre of your body, but don't try to pretend that a wholesale replacement of all the Marines at the start of 8th would have been a big nothing for everyone. That would have been major. The biggest shakeup since AoS. Potentially bigger, even, given that Marines outsell everything else GW does.

They kinda are? I think the head socket is slightly different due to having a tongue in it for the Flasgitz. So headswaps may look awkward and getting a big choppa on a flashgit body may be tricky.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Aren't the Nobz and Flash Gitz kits completely interchangeable?

Due to the way ork arms are cut, nob wargear is interchangeable between almost all the nobz, including flash gits, warbiker and boyz squad leaders, the nob with warbanner as well as the old metal painboy (not sure about the new one).

A clever ork payer can buy a box of nobz and use the excess bits of the flash gits box to turn the combi-shootas in there into five additional flash gits.

 Blackie wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Ork players don't want new models? Fine.

Eldar players are desperate for them.

Orks players don't want new models that invalidate older ones. It happened since 7th with most of the new releases: Mek Gunz invalidated Big Gunz, all the new buggies invalidated the old buggies, new Ghaz invalidated old Ghaz.

I'm sure eldar players don't want that either.

New releases are cool when they are like sisters infantries and their tanks or necron warriors, just updated versions of some already existing kits. There's also plenty of new releases that ork players will love cause there is no plastic model. Modern deffkoptas, mad dok or warboss would be awesome. A couple of new characters would be amazing.

I doubt new Boyz are going to invalidate old Boyz.

New boyz? Everyone already has loads of them, and many of us still have to paint a significant number of infantry green skins.

"Everyone already has loads of them" is the reason they might update them. If existing players aren't buying more of them, and they're an essential unit for new players yet have a poor aesthetic compared to more recent releases, it'd be a good reason for an update.


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 zend wrote:
The models released with Speed Freeks offer no customization, and the drivers sculpts are in a completely different style than the 2014 and older models, and look more Orruky than Orky. That was bad news and just about killed my interest In Ork models, though Ghaz reestablished some of it. Hopefully GW keeps the interchangeability the old Orks and even the new CSM have (to a degree, it’s nice that I can put the Havok weapons on the regular CSM bodies).

On the other hand, the Speed Freeks models rekindled my interest in Orks (right before the prices killed it again ).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Everyone already has loads of them" is the reason they might update them. If existing players aren't buying more of them, and they're an essential unit for new players yet have a poor aesthetic compared to more recent releases, it'd be a good reason for an update.

Can we stop this flawed logic? If that were the case, they definitely should not start orks at all, because almost all models have the same poor aesthetic. Because they look the exact same as boyz.

Seriously, I could take a picture of four of my models that I'm using as boyz and you would be unable to tell which kit they came from.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Ork players don't want new models? Fine.

Eldar players are desperate for them.

Orks players don't want new models that invalidate older ones. It happened since 7th with most of the new releases: Mek Gunz invalidated Big Gunz, all the new buggies invalidated the old buggies, new Ghaz invalidated old Ghaz.

I'm sure eldar players don't want that either.

New releases are cool when they are like sisters infantries and their tanks or necron warriors, just updated versions of some already existing kits. There's also plenty of new releases that ork players will love cause there is no plastic model. Modern deffkoptas, mad dok or warboss would be awesome. A couple of new characters would be amazing.

I doubt new Boyz are going to invalidate old Boyz.

New boyz? Everyone already has loads of them, and many of us still have to paint a significant number of infantry green skins.

"Everyone already has loads of them" is the reason they might update them. If existing players aren't buying more of them, and they're an essential unit for new players yet have a poor aesthetic compared to more recent releases, it'd be a good reason for an update.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zend wrote:
The models released with Speed Freeks offer no customization, and the drivers sculpts are in a completely different style than the 2014 and older models, and look more Orruky than Orky. That was bad news and just about killed my interest In Ork models, though Ghaz reestablished some of it. Hopefully GW keeps the interchangeability the old Orks and even the new CSM have (to a degree, it’s nice that I can put the Havok weapons on the regular CSM bodies).

On the other hand, the Speed Freeks models rekindled my interest in Orks (right before the prices killed it again ).

Jidmah already stated what I wanted to say regarding how people who think the Ork boy range looks dated or ugly probably doesn't like the Ork range in general when Lootas, Burna Boyz, stormboyz and a bunch of other units use the same build and aesthetic. More importantly, you noted that the prices are what killed your interest in Orks when it came to the Speed Freeks models, which only highlights me and Jidmah's points. Doesn't matter how much you like a revamped kit, if a new boyz kit cost upwards of $65-70 a box for a unit of 10 boyz, would you start a new army when you need 90+ models of those guys to make them worth taking in lists? In what way is this inviting at all to new players interested in Orks? New Ork players already struggle to make a meaningful Ork army when they start off with the bare minimum to run a detachment and a non-functional Start Collecting! Ork box set, so I can only imagine even fewer people wanting to start Orks if they continue the "new premium models, new premium prices" philosophy for updated kits.

 Jidmah wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Everyone already has loads of them" is the reason they might update them. If existing players aren't buying more of them, and they're an essential unit for new players yet have a poor aesthetic compared to more recent releases, it'd be a good reason for an update.

Can we stop this flawed logic? If that were the case, they definitely should not start orks at all, because almost all models have the same poor aesthetic. Because they look the exact same as boyz.

It's not really flawed logic because I wouldn't say "almost all models", I think they've gradually been improving the Ork kits and the basic Boyz are now one of the weaker kits in the range.

For me it's whether or not the muscles look realistic (or maybe I should say "feasible" since Orks aren't really "real" to begin with, lol) and the posing of the arms looks awkward, it has similar issues to the Catachan kit. A lot of the more recent Ork kits don't have the same issues as the regular Boyz. And some of the models which have poses fixed by the weapons they're carrying are also less of an eyesore.

Hell, the current Boyz kit isn't even particularly cheap They're more expensive than most of the 20 man kits that have come out in recent years and given how many you need, they should probably be in a 20 man kit also.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:
Doesn't matter how much you like a revamped kit, if a new boyz kit cost upwards of $65-70 a box for a unit of 10 boyz....

$65-70 for 10 run of the mill basic Boyz would be insane even by GW's standards, that'd make the common Boy more expensive than a Primaris which would just be stupid.

I've said before in this thread a few times, if GW are going to make new Boyz they need to price them reasonably, and there's kits in recent times which have shown GW can do a 20 man kit for $60-70, which makes them cheaper than the current Boyz (which are $72 for 20).

I know we all like to shudder at GW's prices, but they HAVE released some select kits for non-insane prices in recent years.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Everyone already has loads of them" is the reason they might update them. If existing players aren't buying more of them, and they're an essential unit for new players yet have a poor aesthetic compared to more recent releases, it'd be a good reason for an update.

Can we stop this flawed logic? If that were the case, they definitely should not start orks at all, because almost all models have the same poor aesthetic. Because they look the exact same as boyz.

It's not really flawed logic because I wouldn't say "almost all models", I think they've gradually been improving the Ork kits and the basic Boyz are now one of the weaker kits in the range.

For me it's whether or not the muscles look realistic (or maybe I should say "feasible" since Orks aren't really "real" to begin with, lol) and the posing of the arms looks awkward, it has similar issues to the Catachan kit. A lot of the more recent Ork kits don't have the same issues as the regular Boyz. And some of the models which have poses fixed by the weapons they're carrying are also less of an eyesore.

Sorry, but you're just flat out wrong on this, no room for interpretation. The only models with the updated aesthetics you are looking for are the buggies, Thrakka and the new pain boy. That's eight out of 40+ ork kits.

You also keep ignoring how the boyz sculpt is used in multiple kits.

Hell, the current Boyz kit isn't even particularly cheap They're more expensive than most of the 20 man kits that have come out in recent years and given how many you need, they should probably be in a 20 man kit also.

What 20 man kits? I can't think of a single one.

Remember when night goblins in WFB changed in size in comparison to the ugly Brian Nelson gorilla night goblins ? It was the same here with orks, people complained about how they invalidated their old collection. Because yes, they look awful put together in the same army.

The same appears with old sisters of battle mixed with the new (when you add the new Zephyrim, for example)...the difference is clear.

If you have a full collection of the old models and only use them, it's fine. It's when you mix them together in the same army that it doesn't look as good.

But personnally, I would still be glad to see an updated ork kit replacing these ugly Brian Nelson gorilla models finally.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I've said before in this thread a few times, if GW are going to make new Boyz they need to price them reasonably, and there's kits in recent times which have shown GW can do a 20 man kit for $60-70, which makes them cheaper than the current Boyz (which are $72 for 20).

They won't price them resonably, and there is no reason to believe so. 55-60 USD are definitely a price that is rather common among similar sized models (see CSM or SoB).

Would you buy ork boyz at 55-60 USD?

I know we all like to shudder at GW's prices, but they HAVE released some select kits for non-insane prices in recent years.

Considering that you even think that buggies are too expensive, what did you think was reasonably priced? Box sets not allowed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:
But personnally, I would still be glad to see an updated ork kit replacing these ugly Brian Nelson gorilla models finally.

Sure, but is it worth $500 to you?

 Jidmah wrote:

Sure, but is it worth $500 to you?

They won't be sold $500 each kit of 10 boyz, you know.

If you're talking about investment for a whole army of orks...I'm pretty sure the current line forces you to spend you that amount already, if not much more. It's not because someone started them in the 90 and build his collection as years pass on that it makes them "cheaper" in the end. Inflation matters as well.

Besides, since I sold my full collection of metal sisters of battle (with more than 300 models and that were way more expensive than the current sisters in plastic anyway) and bought the new sisters in plastic anew...I guess my answer will be "yes", anyway.

Just a matter of perspective and how you decide to build your collection. GW miniatures are unneeded and useless outside of the Hobby, anyway. And I know my collection is most likely to end in a bin or sold at not even a tenth of its value when I will die. Will still spend the money when I'm alive.

Nice try, but $500 would be the price for a basic battalion (3x troops) worth of boyz plus some primer, not a single other model included.

Comparing metal sisters to plastic orks isn't even in the ballpark of apples to oranges anymore...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


"Everyone already has loads of them" is the reason they might update them. If existing players aren't buying more of them, and they're an essential unit for new players yet have a poor aesthetic compared to more recent releases, it'd be a good reason for an update.

Current boyz aesthetics is perfect, they look extremely better compared to ANY existing SM model, including (especially?) the modern kits.

The point is if the new kit doesn't invalidate the older one and players already have tons of those models, they won't buy it. Simple. I know I won't. Or maybe they'd but a single kit just to do some conversions. If they do invalidate it, people could be angry and avoid buying it anyway. Not everyone is a SM player who is willing to re-buy his entire army over and over again.

GW wants to grab money from ork players? Give us something new, like a medium tank, a flying transport, grot specialists, or a few characters or update all the finecast/metal kits like koptas, kommandos, tankbustas, zagstruk, snikrot, mad dok. Replace the current mek gunz with an updated one that includes three mek gunz for a slightly higher price (killa kanz set has the same amount of plastic of 3 mek gunz and costs the same of a single mek gun): I bet people would buy it immediately. An updated ork boyz kit is the last thing orks players need and probably want.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:


Besides, since I sold my full collection of metal sisters of battle (with more than 300 models and that were way more expensive than the current sisters in plastic anyway) and bought the new sisters in plastic anew...I guess my answer will be "yes", anyway.

Metal sisters were identical monopose dudes, any ork army is likely to be highly customized. I built 180 boyz that are all different just by exploiting the combinations from the regular kit, some kitbashing from other ork kits, some kitbashing from fantasy orc and goblins kits and 40ish models from Assault on Black Reach, which have a different pose than regular ones.

I'd also sell metal sisters in order to get the new plastic ones if I had a classic sister army.

I have in my head that the basic Ork models are still great and don't need replacing, it's mainly characters, and some older kits that are now showing their age as well as not being plastic.

However, all you need to do is look at the orruks from AoS to realise their is so much more potential in the likes of ork boyz etc. I'd be in favour of carefully made upgrade kits for Ork Boyz, and then going all in on some mega knobs, kommandos and the like that are still resin, and now also undersized. Mega Knobs should be massive, bigger than an aggressor.

I'm not a fan of updating kits for the sake of updating them, when there are some serious contenders in the hobby for needing a full revamp of infantry models in the range such as Eldar (though guardians still look good! Maybe they could be a little more dynamic with a new kit but the aesthetic is still great) and Imperial guard which now desperately need new kits as they are the worse looking models in the game... When you see what they have done with necromunda, you realise how much potential there is for human models.

Anyway, yeah, ork boyz don't need touching other than maybe upgrade spues to make them more klan specific. If GW really wants to upgrade them, they should be bottom of the pile of most armies/factions or close to it.

Honestly, I don't know if there's a better way of souring me off orks than going the orruk route.

 Albertorius wrote:
Honestly, I don't know if there's a better way of souring me off orks than going the orruk route.

You may not like the aesthetic as a whole, but there's no denying they look more dynamic, savage and most importantly, got the scale for the big guys correct.

 Jidmah wrote:
Nice try, but $500 would be the price for a basic battalion (3x troops) worth of boyz plus some primer, not a single other model included.

Comparing metal sisters to plastic orks isn't even in the ballpark of apples to oranges anymore...

Try to deflect as much as you want and not answer the rest of my post, I don't care.

You have your view, I have mine. We won't change them, anyway.

 Blackie wrote:


Metal sisters were identical monopose dudes, any ork army is likely to be highly customized. I built 180 boyz that are all different just by exploiting the combinations from the regular kit, some kitbashing from other ork kits, some kitbashing from fantasy orc and goblins kits and 40ish models from Assault on Black Reach, which have a different pose than regular ones.

I'd also sell metal sisters in order to get the new plastic ones if I had a classic sister army.

Yeah, they were monopose. And metal, which sucks hard for conversion, should I add.

Orks will still be in plastic and thus easy to convert as well. Well...for those who didn't buy the metal models, that is (I still remember those, I'm that old ).

You'd still be able to use parts from other kits. Some may look weirder because of the different proportions, but hey orks don't stop at that kind of details, do they ?

However, I'll be honest here : when you have a horde of 120 boyz, I think players who do indeed convert every single one of them are more an exception than the rule. When your miniatures are drowned in the mass, you don't stop at details as much as you would with your characters or center pieces. So I don't believe it's that big a deal for basic troops.

Besides, with old kits, the "diversity" generally implies an arm raised instead of being lowered, a different head and a right leg in front instead of the left. Old boyz all have the same general pose in the end - without conversions. Just because you can put the head looking in a different direction doesn't really change that.

Looking more dynamic isn't always good. I love several models that are extremely static, like Ulrik the Slayer. Old Lelith is way less dynamic than the new one and yet I conisder that model much much better than the new one.

Scale isn't an issue, I despise huge infantry models for example. A current Meganob is IMHO already big, and previous Ghaz was massive. Primaris/gravis dudes are so big that they look stupid and they're less fun to paint.

Current orruks are definitely too big for my tastes.

If those more dynamic models are also monopose then is a complete NO for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:


Besides, with old kits, the "diversity" generally implies an arm raised instead of being lowered, a different head and a right leg in front instead of the left. Old boyz all have the same general pose in the end - without conversions. Just because you can put the head looking in a different direction doesn't really change that.

Yeah, but a neutral pose is good if you need tons of bodies. I mean all shoota boyz have the same pose but they're perfect as they are. There are 30+ heads that can fit their bodies and that alone could be enough to properly differentiate the models.

Now imagine 10 shoota boyz with unique poses, they'd look awful in large squads due to duplicating dynamic poses. Poxwalkers are the perfect example, they all look quite unique but they're also just 10 dudes that can't be customized unless doing some real hard work, which is bad since they're a unit that is supposed to be an horde.

 Blackie wrote:


If those more dynamic models are also monopose then is a complete NO for me.

They will be, it's useless to kid ourselves here.

 Blackie wrote:

Now imagine 10 shoota boyz with unique poses, they'd look awful in large squads due to duplicating dynamic poses. Poxwalkers are the perfect example, they all look quite unique but they're also just 10 dudes that can't be customized unless doing some real hard work, which is bad since they're a unit that is supposed to be an horde.

Usually, every body has a specific set of arms designed to work with it, but saying it's hard work to change that...they're plastic in the end, it's the same than the old kits when you try to change the gorilla pose without breaking the back spine or want to put a different angle to the arms. It's work, yes, but not a big deal as well.

The real question is : is it worth it for troops that you can align a hundred or so ? I think the answer will be the same than for the old boyz and zombies : "no".

 Jidmah wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

They could look really good, and even if you had a horde of 50 they'd still look good.

Would they still look good if you had a horde of 90 or 120? Because that's about what an average ork army is running these days. I know my plague marines looked horrible when I brought two blocks of 20 because of all the repeat models.

Plague Marines only have a few poses I think?
10 poses between DI and the ETB set, which make the bulk of my army, another 7 from two plague marine boxes, plus one set of Space Marine Heros. In theory I could get another 3 poses by buying the reinforcements set, but there are better things to spend money on.
The models that stick out are those which aren't just standing and holding their weapon in front of them, but those which are in a grenade throwing or running pose, or those with a unique weapon sticking out.

On the Plague Marines. As it’s not too many, I converted all mind to allow no repeats.
7DI, 7DV (with minor converting), 7 Multi, 3 ETB, plus like the single champion and icon bearer. It’s about 26 not counting the SM Heroes unbuilt as yet.
Then two more ETB sets and one more Multi part, that’s 13 that I had to convert up, which wasn’t too bad, the ETB have all the cool bits from the Multi part to vary them, the kit needed a bit of imagination, but was pretty easy.

My boyz, well first they were done a long time ago. But in the masses, it was just try to out a different head and weapon combo on every body possible, and when I got to repeats, different colour browns for the clothes

endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Honestly, I don't know if there's a better way of souring me off orks than going the orruk route.

You may not like the aesthetic as a whole, but there's no denying they look more dynamic, savage and most importantly, got the scale for the big guys correct.

I would say there is totally denying it, yes. The big orruks don't particularly look more dynamic to me in the least; the only thing the look like is more human. Which is kind of exactly the opposite of what I want.

Plus, "dynamic" is not "better" by default. It's another aesthetic option.

 aracersss wrote:
SoD warband for AoS Underworlds is in feb. Maybe lizardmen for Match, and SoulBlight for April. It leaves BoneSplitterz for May possibly. Maybe a shared month for a 40k ork surprise?

Well we know the full release schedule for Underworlds. But they are the side releases anyway so won’t take away from something else’s release such as a main line game. Even an AoS release doesn’t stop a 40k one. Particularly as March is back to 4 week releases (currently anyway).

Having seen the Ork coin I’d imagine it’s sooner rather than later.
April is the next unknown coin slot is it, so maybe then. May if stuff is pushed back a bit from the start of the year.

 Jidmah wrote:
Nice try, but $500 would be the price for a basic battalion (3x troops) worth of boyz plus some primer, not a single other model included.

Comparing metal sisters to plastic orks isn't even in the ballpark of apples to oranges anymore...

Starting Orks is unreasonable already for a brand new player, making it more expensive won't change it much really. Like, if I were a brand new person, why would I ever go for the army that costs 2 or 3x more than say, marines of SoB or any other non-horde army? Horde armies from GW right now are inherently bad value for money.

Cronch wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Nice try, but $500 would be the price for a basic battalion (3x troops) worth of boyz plus some primer, not a single other model included.

Comparing metal sisters to plastic orks isn't even in the ballpark of apples to oranges anymore...

Starting Orks is unreasonable already for a brand new player, making it more expensive won't change it much really. Like, if I were a brand new person, why would I ever go for the army that costs 2 or 3x more than say, marines of SoB or any other non-horde army? Horde armies from GW right now are inherently bad value for money.

Yeah, agree. If they re-do boyz they absolutely have to tackle this issue at the same time. If the rules heavily encourage running mobs of 30, those mobs can't cost significantly more money than units of 10 intercessors.

But let's get real, they are charging $70 for a unit of 20 push-fit poxwalkers, $108 for 30 boyz is the best we're going to get. Unless they re-do the models, of course, then it gets worse.

Of course, they could do a heavily discounted combat patrol box, but we all know it's not going to have 30 boyz in it.