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 Niiai wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Depends on the army.
But lots of small-arms fire helps a lot, while e.g. lascannon shots are hit or miss.

I think your hypotethis is wrong. 210 points of devil gaunts with shoot twice stratagem (180 shots) only killed 2 Terminators. Small arms fire does not 'help a lot'.

A lascannon would stil be saved on 3. And not kill a terminator 1/3 of the time. The number of lascannon shots for a sure kill would be staggering. Especially considering their cost.

Nope.

When I play models with a 3++ save, I hardly fail. So your lascannons pretty much all bounce off.
The exception is an Archon with a shadowfield. She dies at first sight.

I think your question is "How to kill 10 terminators 380pts and not make it look like you are trying too hard", while playing Orks.

I don't see an easy answer.

It won't be shooting unless multiple shock attack guns. So... Nob squads with powerklaws, Def Dreads (best option, tie them up for 3 turns), Killer Kans (maybe).

Tau have easy answers, chaos marines have disposable answers, eldar have so many different ways from wraithblades to shuriken spam or starcannon spam. Primaris have good answers with those bolt rifles.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think your question is "How to kill 10 terminators 380pts and not make it look like you are trying too hard", while playing Orks.

I don't see an easy answer.

It won't be shooting unless multiple shock attack guns. So... Nob squads with powerklaws, Def Dreads (best option, tie them up for 3 turns), Killer Kans (maybe).

Tau have easy answers, chaos marines have disposable answers, eldar have so many different ways from wraithblades to shuriken spam or starcannon spam. Primaris have good answers with those bolt rifles

Yeah, it is a bit of a narrow question. But we have had some suggestions so far. Some pan out better then other. But if the awnser is on units not usualy taken it is more of a moot point. It does not help you on the battlefield if the unit is in your codex if it is not in your list. But some of the awnsers seems nice. (Harlequeen guns, exocrines.)

 Niiai wrote:
Necron Warrior. 13 per pop. Gaus Reaper Assault 2. BS3+ S5 AP2 D1

Use Gauss to auto-wound on 6s, which conveniently ignores DW as well. And let's assume they're DW.

((40 * .167) + (40 * .5 * .5)) * .333 = 5.6 wounds on Deathwing termies with Stormshields.

Grab +1 to hit and hit terminators without SS and you'll kill 3. If they're not DW you'd kill four.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Necron Warrior. 13 per pop. Gaus Reaper Assault 2. BS3+ S5 AP2 D1

Use Gauss to auto-wound on 6s, which conveniently ignores DW as well. And let's assume they're DW.

((40 * .167) + (40 * .5 * .5)) * .333 = 5.6 wounds on Deathwing termies with Stormshields.

Grab +1 to hit and hit terminators without SS and you'll kill 3. If they're not DW you'd kill four.

How does the gause auto-wound work?

Its a stratagem which auto wounds on an unmodified hit roll of 6.

Thats not enough. Each ap-2 gun is still saved against on a roll of 2+ so only a sixth of hits will have effect. Each 3 hits with s5 vs t4 is normally 2 wounding ergo the strat is a roughly 1 hit in four vains .333 ... Its seriously useless. Set forth 12 such shoot. They hit 16 times. They wound 10 without and mabye q2 withthe strat. 2 unsaved wounds vs 1.8 unsaved wounds. Tsrmies laugh

 Niiai wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

Yes except Ap -2 does nothing vs them if they have shields and terain cover. SW has a psykick power WC6 that gives cover saves. I do not know if DA has it, but they do have the apotecary that SW do not have.

So good AP3 weapons would be plasmashots? If you can get them cheap.

The question was how to get rid termies. Not how to get rid of termies in cover.. Because then I will just say my army ignores cover..
Are they always in cover ?

 Argive wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

Yes except Ap -2 does nothing vs them if they have shields and terain cover. SW has a psykick power WC6 that gives cover saves. I do not know if DA has it, but they do have the apotecary that SW do not have.

So good AP3 weapons would be plasmashots? If you can get them cheap.

The question was how to get rid termies. Not how to get rid of termies in cover.. Because then I will just say my army ignores cover..
Are they always in cover ?

From the OP

What are the ideal way to take out terminators with stormshields with coversave.

So essentially 3 wound models starting at 2+/4++. With +2 to save, or +1 in melee.

Or as it's also known some total BS.
Frankly for most terminators the best option is to not bother S4 Ap-1 shooting is rather meh for 38 points however with plasma that's less of an option.

 Niiai wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think your question is "How to kill 10 terminators 380pts and not make it look like you are trying too hard", while playing Orks.

I don't see an easy answer.

It won't be shooting unless multiple shock attack guns. So... Nob squads with powerklaws, Def Dreads (best option, tie them up for 3 turns), Killer Kans (maybe).

Tau have easy answers, chaos marines have disposable answers, eldar have so many different ways from wraithblades to shuriken spam or starcannon spam. Primaris have good answers with those bolt rifles

Yeah, it is a bit of a narrow question. But we have had some suggestions so far. Some pan out better then other. But if the awnser is on units not usualy taken it is more of a moot point. It does not help you on the battlefield if the unit is in your codex if it is not in your list. But some of the awnsers seems nice. (Harlequeen guns, exocrines.)

Your friend has access to other armies? I would only suggest common models or the competitive ones that you should have even if they are forgeworld. In Orks - Defdreads look the best, walk up in melee and stay there for the rest of the game if you use enough of them. And again I am assuming those are commonly used models.

If he's got other armies, I vote Tau. 1 Unit of Remoras and 1 Hammerhead, toss in a bunch of stratagems and 7 terminators get vaporized. Or Eldar, wraithblades axes and shield, liberally sprinkle stratagems and a healthy does of psychic powers and I think... they can kill the entire unit in a turn. 10 Dark Reapers can just about do that too.

Just. Dont be thatguy. Do not run a termieblock foryourcasual friendlygame. Replaceot withsomethingreasonabler.

 Argive wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

Yes except Ap -2 does nothing vs them if they have shields and terain cover. SW has a psykick power WC6 that gives cover saves. I do not know if DA has it, but they do have the apotecary that SW do not have.

So good AP3 weapons would be plasmashots? If you can get them cheap.

The question was how to get rid termies. Not how to get rid of termies in cover.. Because then I will just say my army ignores cover..
Are they always in cover ?

I ran a 10 man terminator squad with psyker and bjorn babysitting. 7 terminators have shield, 6 have combi plasma, 2 have cyclone missile launcher. Psyker gives counting as beeing in cover via psykick power. Bjorn also re-rolls 1's so you can overcharge plasma to your hearts content. (You can stack as many 1 cp stratagems as you want: Ignore negative modefier, +1 to hit, re-roll wound rolls 1 on.

If you want to go really insane you can also give opponent -1 to hit vs you. But by that one is 2 cp and rather exspensive.)

My ork opponent was floored by them. I wondered what actually counters them as I am sure there are something.

Also, please do not come with 'do not be that guy' argument. I glued together the models I wanted to play with. I did not sitt down with exelsheets and runn numbers to see if I would win. We met up, played, and by second turn the game was over. It was not fun for any of us.

Run the same thing with 5 terminators next time. That's how you make it fun and not be "That Guy"

Or bring the 10 terminators with no support at all... period. That might work, maybe.

I know this doesnt help but I'm kind of glad to see somebody ask this. I havent played any games of 9th but if somebody is asking this that must mean that terminators are finally living up to their reputation!

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Just. Dont be thatguy. Do not run a termieblock foryourcasual friendlygame. Replaceot withsomethingreasonabler.

My collection of DA models includes 30+ terminators and they've never been something I could field effectively, why shouldn't I use them now that they're finally good?

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Just. Dont be thatguy. Do not run a termieblock foryourcasual friendlygame. Replaceot withsomethingreasonabler.

My collection of DA models includes 30+ terminators and they've never been something I could field effectively, why shouldn't I use them now that they're finally good?

Well, do you want a challenge? Because if so, you should probably do GW's job, like you've advised doing in other threads.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

My collection of DA models includes 30+ terminators and they've never been something I could field effectively, why shouldn't I use them now that they're finally good?

I dont think people saying never use them all, but running the same thing over and over will get very repetitive for your opponent (unless its in a tournament).

DA now have good rules so that a triple wing army is very viable and should be fun to play, and play against.

As a Tyranid player anything I could advice basically boils down to 'swarm with chaff, hit with MWs from psykers if possible' because gaunts will outnumber them and have obsec; even if at the end of the game all my gaunts are dead and his termies alive, I can still have held the objectives that whole time.

I think an important line of thinking is looking at ones own army, looking at the offense those terminators are bringing to bear, and asking 'do the terminators need to be killed?' Because the answer to that will determine the direction to go in.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Just. Dont be thatguy. Do not run a termieblock foryourcasual friendlygame. Replaceot withsomethingreasonabler.

My collection of DA models includes 30+ terminators and they've never been something I could field effectively, why shouldn't I use them now that they're finally good?

Knocking the dust off models that have endured multiple editions of sucky rules goes a long way to help you not be That Guy. You are not some FOTM bandwaggoner.

That said...

You might need to apologize to your opponent, and explain that you want to get one game in with your guys before the nerf hammer comes down on them. Give them their moment in the sun.

But after they shine so bright, work on bringing a list that makes for a fun game for both sides. Assuming friendly play. Skew lists rarely do that. Or just ask for a more competitive list and take your lumps if they bring something that can casually cash out 30 termies.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, do you want a challenge? Because if so, you should probably do GW's job, like you've advised doing in other threads.

No, not really. I enjoy winning and if the meta is full of people with terrible lists I have no issues feasting for a while.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Well, do you want a challenge? Because if so, you should probably do GW's job, like you've advised doing in other threads.

No, not really. I enjoy winning and if the meta is full of people with terrible lists I have no issues feasting for a while.

Do you care about other people having a good time?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As a Tyranid player anything I could advice basically boils down to 'swarm with chaff, hit with MWs from psykers if possible' because gaunts will outnumber them and have obsec; even if at the end of the game all my gaunts are dead and his termies alive, I can still have held the objectives that whole time.

I think an important line of thinking is looking at ones own army, looking at the offense those terminators are bringing to bear, and asking 'do the terminators need to be killed?' Because the answer to that will determine the direction to go in.

Yeah that sounds like a good tactic until you realise they can shoot their storm bolters into combat after doing all the SM attacks...

I mean if you are Necrons you could just throw scarabs at them.

In terms of everyone else? I would suggest ignoring them and killing everything else.
Shoot what you can kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Argive wrote:
I think High ROF Str4 Ap -2 D1 is the sweet spot IMO.
Throwing las cannong or sngle shot heavy weapons at termies seem to be a waste. Also MWs

Try and force lots of 3+ saves and whittle them down.

Yes except Ap -2 does nothing vs them if they have shields and terain cover. SW has a psykick power WC6 that gives cover saves. I do not know if DA has it, but they do have the apotecary that SW do not have.

So good AP3 weapons would be plasmashots? If you can get them cheap.

The question was how to get rid termies. Not how to get rid of termies in cover.. Because then I will just say my army ignores cover..
Are they always in cover ?

I ran a 10 man terminator squad with psyker and bjorn babysitting. 7 terminators have shield, 6 have combi plasma, 2 have cyclone missile launcher. Psyker gives counting as beeing in cover via psykick power. Bjorn also re-rolls 1's so you can overcharge plasma to your hearts content. (You can stack as many 1 cp stratagems as you want: Ignore negative modefier, +1 to hit, re-roll wound rolls 1 on.

If you want to go really insane you can also give opponent -1 to hit vs you. But by that one is 2 cp and rather exspensive.)

My ork opponent was floored by them. I wondered what actually counters them as I am sure there are something.

Also, please do not come with 'do not be that guy' argument. I glued together the models I wanted to play with. I did not sitt down with exelsheets and runn numbers to see if I would win. We met up, played, and by second turn the game was over. It was not fun for any of us.

Fair enough. I missed that part.

Do army wide "ignore cover" work against the psyker power?

In terms of how to get around termies...

The only real answer is to tailor. So High ROF AP-2/3 coming out of stuff that doesn't really care about bolters.
My advice would be: If you cant kill it. Ignore it. And base your entire strategy around ignoring that unit and countering everything else and doing objectives..

If your regular opponent/friend is struggling against that unit because they don't have the right models, or their faction hasnt gotten rules in years and you've enjoyed two supplaments and two codexes in that time.. then perhaps tone it down. That doesn't make you TFG to want to play that unit... but if you are asking for a solution that doesn't exist or is possible on the opponents part then the solution lies with you as the other player.

I've toned down lists against some players if I knew they didn't have a good army/ models. it is what it is.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Do you care about other people having a good time?

Not when I'm bringing a fluffy DA list that just happens to possibly be good.

EDIT: More honestly, I'd probably change up my list if people complained too much though I draw the line at needing to make a list that intentionally lacks synergy.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think your question is "How to kill 10 terminators 380pts and not make it look like you are trying too hard", while playing Orks.

I don't see an easy answer.

It won't be shooting unless multiple shock attack guns. So... Nob squads with powerklaws, Def Dreads (best option, tie them up for 3 turns), Killer Kans (maybe).

Tau have easy answers, chaos marines have disposable answers, eldar have so many different ways from wraithblades to shuriken spam or starcannon spam. Primaris have good answers with those bolt rifles.

380 points of Smasha Gunz (9.5 Mek Gunz) will eat 380 points of terminators pretty easily. Against a unit of 6+ termies all with 4++ they should kill 6-7 of them on average (3 shots thanks to blast bonus plus exploding 6s at BS4+ for each gun) in a single turn of shooting. If some termies don't have the shield mek gunz should delete the entire squad. Problem is each gun costs 50$ .

Bring ghaz against termies, they can only deal 4 damage per turn to him, no matter what, in combat, while ghaz should wipe 3 termies per turn at least. Blobs of 30 boyz are also good to tarpit terminators especially if those aren't kitted to clear hordes. Goffs ones can even deal significant damage in melee.

 Blackie wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:
I think your question is "How to kill 10 terminators 380pts and not make it look like you are trying too hard", while playing Orks.

I don't see an easy answer.

It won't be shooting unless multiple shock attack guns. So... Nob squads with powerklaws, Def Dreads (best option, tie them up for 3 turns), Killer Kans (maybe).

Tau have easy answers, chaos marines have disposable answers, eldar have so many different ways from wraithblades to shuriken spam or starcannon spam. Primaris have good answers with those bolt rifles.

380 points of Smasha Gunz (9.5 Mek Gunz) will eat 380 points of terminators pretty easily. Against a unit of 6+ termies all with 4++ they should kill 6-7 of them on average (3 shots thanks to blast bonus plus exploding 6s at BS4+ for each gun) in a single turn of shooting. If some termies don't have the shield mek gunz should delete the entire squad. Problem is each gun costs 50$ .

Bring ghaz against termies, they can only deal 4 damage per turn to him, no matter what, in combat, while ghaz should wipe 3 termies per turn at least. Blobs of 30 boyz are also good to tarpit terminators especially if those aren't kitted to clear hordes. Goffs ones can even deal significant damage in melee.

Bring 13 or more (I have 13 !! Hou ha ! Hobbywise a huge investment, and $ wise too) but in a grot detachment, this way you reroll "1s", and you can frustrate kills with the 6++.

I will try this Saturday 13th but I am afraid of black knights destroying many of my mek gunz with their 18 range if he gets turn 1, depending on deployment modalities of course. On some deploy you can fit the mek gunz away from the 18 range of black knights.

I think an important line of thinking is looking at ones own army, looking at the offense those terminators are bringing to bear, and asking 'do the terminators need to be killed?' Because the answer to that will determine the direction to go in.

This is a really good answer to a difficult question. With DA termies especially you're already down to a 50/50 chance of wounding with the high strength weapons that would traditionally be efficient before they've even rolled their invun.

By nature of their rules there isn't a lot that's efficient at killing them. So what we're starting to see, thanks to DG initially and now these Deathwing builds on the horizon, is people countering this durability with speed. It gives you the potential to ignore them for the most part after all. If you can match that speed/kiting ability with a high ROF then thats even better.

The other thing I can see rising is MW spamming type lists or armies that absolutely smash obsec bodies to win on numbers.

It's early days still so we'll see how people adapt but at first glance, trying to kill them clearly isnt the most reliable way of dealing with them

TheNEWnew wrote:

I think an important line of thinking is looking at ones own army, looking at the offense those terminators are bringing to bear, and asking 'do the terminators need to be killed?' Because the answer to that will determine the direction to go in.

This is a really good answer to a difficult question. With DA termies especially you're already down to a 50/50 chance of wounding with the high strength weapons that would traditionally be efficient before they've even rolled their invun.

By nature of their rules there isn't a lot that's efficient at killing them. So what we're starting to see, thanks to DG initially and now these Deathwing builds on the horizon, is people countering this durability with speed. It gives you the potential to ignore them for the most part after all. If you can match that speed/kiting ability with a high ROF then thats even better.

The other thing I can see rising is MW spamming type lists or armies that absolutely smash obsec bodies to win on numbers.

It's early days still so we'll see how people adapt but at first glance, trying to kill them clearly isnt the most reliable way of dealing with them

3 attacks first fight turn per termi, 4 per blade guard, on 9th ed small tables yes, you need to at least kill a few to blunt their impact. They are not that expensive, and DA termis are obsec, so I don't think ignoring them can win you anything. But perhaps you are right, DA lists so far that I have seen have about 40 models, so... But a good player will spread them well enough I think, we will see I guess

ObSec Is not really so important unless you lacks it entirely.
A small ObSec units (Necron Warrior or Boys or CSM) or even a single model will negates the advantage, and any cheap and numerous units will come out on top in terms of controlling am objective.

You should force the opponent that uses Terminators to shoot for the ObSec unit rather than the heavy hitters, so you can continue to hit where is more painful.

 addnid wrote:

TheNEWnew wrote:

I think an important line of thinking is looking at ones own army, looking at the offense those terminators are bringing to bear, and asking 'do the terminators need to be killed?' Because the answer to that will determine the direction to go in.

This is a really good answer to a difficult question. With DA termies especially you're already down to a 50/50 chance of wounding with the high strength weapons that would traditionally be efficient before they've even rolled their invun.

By nature of their rules there isn't a lot that's efficient at killing them. So what we're starting to see, thanks to DG initially and now these Deathwing builds on the horizon, is people countering this durability with speed. It gives you the potential to ignore them for the most part after all. If you can match that speed/kiting ability with a high ROF then thats even better.

The other thing I can see rising is MW spamming type lists or armies that absolutely smash obsec bodies to win on numbers.

It's early days still so we'll see how people adapt but at first glance, trying to kill them clearly isnt the most reliable way of dealing with them

3 attacks first fight turn per termi, 4 per blade guard, on 9th ed small tables yes, you need to at least kill a few to blunt their impact. They are not that expensive, and DA termis are obsec, so I don't think ignoring them can win you anything. But perhaps you are right, DA lists so far that I have seen have about 40 models, so... But a good player will spread them well enough I think, we will see I guess

Oh yeah dont get me wrong, you cant ignore them completely, sorry if thats how my post came across. You're absolutely right, you do have to deal with them eventually, I more meant that traditional ways of dealing with these terminators really aren't affective anymore. Auspex tactics posted a mathhammer video on YouTube recently in which he said to kill 5.6 deathwing termies, with basically the full cohort of buffs on them, so stromshields, -1 damage, -1 to hit, 4+ to wound and a 6+FNP you need an obscene 68 hits from overcharged plasma. Then one of them gets back up if they have an apothecary nearby...

Chipping away at them however you can is gonna be better than trying to take a swing at them, missing, and then getting punched back even harder. The winning LVO sisters/custodes list already employed this same sort of tactic. I was suggesting that speed and a high ROF were gonna be preferred for doing this while obsec bodies were gonna be important for stealing objectives while the rest of your army gets killed lol.

Fortunately the DA termies have that rule which means they have to roll to see if they can fall back - if you can kind of drip feed stuff into them and bog them down that might be a viable way of dealing with them. 5++ scarabs im looking at you.

One unit I could see being not too shabby at tarpitting them might be Astra Militarum Crusaders.
For 16 ppm they are T3, W1, 3+, 4++, with 2 (3 with a priest) T4, AP-3 attacks.

Interesting them about them is, that even with the latest updates, they seem to have kept the AM datasheet (as they can still be taken in units of 10, instead of the Adepta Sororitas datasheet that is limited to 6), so they can still fight twice on a 2+ or resurrect one model on a 2+. They can also be healed (read, resurrected) by IG command squads as well as SoB Hospitallers, so one can theoretically bring back 3/turn.

Roughly doing the math, assuming the turn any one of them has charged:
Assuming a 10 man Crusader unit with a priest) (200 Points) I get for a 5 man Termie-Squad (more than 190+ points, correct me if I got the numbers wrong):
12 x T8/-3/d2 attacks on 4+ => 2.5 dead crusaders
4 x T5,-3,d1 attacks (from the sergants Powersword) on 3+ => 0.88 dead crusaders

On the other hand the Crusaders would at full strength and with a priest get:
30 x T4/-3/d1 attacks on a rerollable 3+ => 4.44 damage, so 1.5 dead T4,2+,4++ models with +2 to their save rolls.

Note that the Crusaders can likely fight a second time or get one model back up and might also profit from psychic barrier bringing them to 2+/3++.
I don't have the math regarding the Termies shooting, but purely for tarpitting them and wittling them down, this seems to be a possible answer for IG. I'm fully aware that the Termies can also have an apothecary etc. but my basic point is: they would have to take some time killing those crusaders and might even lose some guys on the way.




on a similar note the Termies are quite underwelming when killing death riders in CC (T4, W3, 4+, 5+++ for 15 ppm)
The same 5 Termies as above (using only powerfists) get
16 attacks, resulting in ~ 2.2 dead horses... that's just 33 Points killed which is really underwelming for 190+ Points of Termies in CC.