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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yea I don't quite get Sunny's point. Marines are forced mono often.

I think Sunny's point is that Canticles might become a thing that disallows for multiple Forge Worlds in your army?

Truthfully, I think "Engine War" gave us a good glimpse to where Canticles might be going. We got Forge World specific Canticles in there, so I'm curious if they're going to become a more integrated part of the army roster than they are now.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
GW seem to be shifting their printing to the UK, the Necron codex is the first I've seen that was printed here rather than in China.

Are they? If that is the case I'm a little more open to cost increases.

they change that from book to book often without changing the price
I have here army books printed in China, Poland and UK and by that time the all had the same price

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yea I don't quite get Sunny's point. Marines are forced mono often.

I think Sunny's point is that Canticles might become a thing that disallows for multiple Forge Worlds in your army?

Truthfully, I think "Engine War" gave us a good glimpse to where Canticles might be going. We got Forge World specific Canticles in there, so I'm curious if they're going to become a more integrated part of the army roster than they are now.

If it does, it'd be a first. Sisters' Rites, marines Doctrines, Drukhari's PFP and necrons' protocols all stick around if you have multiple subfactions in your army.

Leggy wrote:
Heavy nerf to Power from pain, but I like what I see for everything else. Poison Tongue getting 3+ to wound every non-vehicle in the game looks tasty, and a master archon with a dijon blade can dish out a lot of damage

Not sure it's a nerf - might actually be a buff!! Look at the abilities side by side:

Turn 1: 6+ Inv vs 6+ FnP
Sideways transition. In a world of multi-damage weapons, this is actually a buff!

Turn 2: Reroll advance and charge rolls vs Can advance and charge
Upgrade, at a cost. Being able to advance and charge is a huge deal for getting those last extra inches on stuff. Even Wyches, who could get this ability as a trait, had to give up other stuff to get it. Now you just have it always, and starting so early too! The cost? Deep Strike and Charge is a lot less reliable, and the times where you needed to reroll an advance to get onto an objective is lost. Once could argue that your charges are less ideal now, but I wholly disagree, since advancing just 2" increases your likelihood of making a charge by more than what a reroll would do (roll a total of 9 on 2d6 with a reroll is 48% likely to work, and rolling a total of 7 on 2d6 is 58.3% likely to work).

Turn 3: +1 WS vs +1 to hit in melee and no Engagement Range penalty
Nearly pure upgrade. Outside the situation where you'll be at -2 to hit in melee (where a WS of 1+ would technically face no penalties - don't worry about the rules here, it's accurate and mattered almost never), the +1 to hit in melee is equivalent, which means the bonus for no penalties while in Engagement Range is just a pure upgrade over before.

Turn 4: Morale Immunity vs 5+ Inv
Definite upgrade. Morale seems to rarely come up, which means that the 5+ Inv will be better almost all the time. But... there's that almost. There will absolutely be times where losing that final model to morale will give you some salt, but then you just gotta remember the extra 100 models over your other games that the improved Inv has saved, and I think you'll be okay.

Turn 5: -1 Ld vs Morale Immunity and double-wounds for bracket checks
100% upgrade. I had to look up all the buffs, but they were just to confirm the order they happened in. But this one from the old 'dex? Couldn't even remember it. It just NEVER mattered. Not once. Please regale me with your 9th edition stories where it mattered, because I'd love to laugh at the poor schmuck that had the misfortune of being one of the few players on planet Earth to suffer from this. Morale immunity? Hey, like the last one, there are times where it matters and it stings, especially at the end of the game (where it's also least likely to come up, but w/e). The double-wounds for brackets though is CLUTCH!!! Why? Because of movement! Suffering less, or not suffering at all, to your movement in that last turn is really phenomenal, and gives vehicle-based Drukhari forces a big end-game push.


So yeah. This is an upgrade in pretty much every way that matters, no?

Rihgu wrote:

Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....

I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.

I'm not reading either of those. It says "All units.... in that Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession"

The drukhari obsessions are the titles of all the special features that could apply to cults, or covens or kabals. So you pick 3 obsessions, one cult obsession, one kabal obsession, and one coven obsession, and all units would gain the appropriate type. Because based on the datasheets, coven units can only get coven obsessions, cult units can only get cult obsessions and kabals can only get kabal obsessions.

the_scotsman wrote:

If it does, it'd be a first. Sisters' Rites, marines Doctrines, Drukhari's PFP and necrons' protocols all stick around if you have multiple subfactions in your army.

*shrug* Just a gut feeling I've got. It's likely wrong, but I could see them taking a "Realspace Raiders" approach. Skitarii can get their own perk, Cult stuff can get their own, and Knights can get their own too.

Realspace raiders also is good news for chaos undivided players.

Deepstrike and charge in 9th was much weaker than advance and charge not by the rule but because deepstrike is just too weak right now. Better to start on the board and just move where you want to be.

 Icculus wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....

I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.

I'm not reading either of those. It says "All units.... in that Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession"

The drukhari obsessions are the titles of all the special features that could apply to cults, or covens or kabals. So you pick 3 obsessions, one cult obsession, one kabal obsession, and one coven obsession, and all units would gain the appropriate type. Because based on the datasheets, coven units can only get coven obsessions, cult units can only get cult obsessions and kabals can only get kabal obsessions.

This is how I read it. In those rules you need to change the <keywords> for the ones you are selecting, so the rule as written lets you change the keyword three times, one for each type.

So, when applied to your army, it would read:

... As well as gaining Drukhari Obsessions for each <Black Heart>, <Red Grief> and <Prophets of Flesh> unit in a Realspace Raid Detachment...

 Yarium wrote:

Leggy wrote:
Heavy nerf to Power from pain, but I like what I see for everything else. Poison Tongue getting 3+ to wound every non-vehicle in the game looks tasty, and a master archon with a dijon blade can dish out a lot of damage

Not sure it's a nerf - might actually be a buff!! Look at the abilities side by side:

Turn 1: 6+ Inv vs 6+ FnP
Sideways transition. In a world of multi-damage weapons, this is actually a buff!

Turn 2: Reroll advance and charge rolls vs Can advance and charge
Upgrade, at a cost. Being able to advance and charge is a huge deal for getting those last extra inches on stuff. Even Wyches, who could get this ability as a trait, had to give up other stuff to get it. Now you just have it always, and starting so early too! The cost? Deep Strike and Charge is a lot less reliable, and the times where you needed to reroll an advance to get onto an objective is lost. Once could argue that your charges are less ideal now, but I wholly disagree, since advancing just 2" increases your likelihood of making a charge by more than what a reroll would do (roll a total of 9 on 2d6 with a reroll is 48% likely to work, and rolling a total of 7 on 2d6 is 58.3% likely to work).

Turn 3: +1 WS vs +1 to hit in melee and no Engagement Range penalty
Nearly pure upgrade. Outside the situation where you'll be at -2 to hit in melee (where a WS of 1+ would technically face no penalties - don't worry about the rules here, it's accurate and mattered almost never), the +1 to hit in melee is equivalent, which means the bonus for no penalties while in Engagement Range is just a pure upgrade over before.

Turn 4: Morale Immunity vs 5+ Inv
Definite upgrade. Morale seems to rarely come up, which means that the 5+ Inv will be better almost all the time. But... there's that almost. There will absolutely be times where losing that final model to morale will give you some salt, but then you just gotta remember the extra 100 models over your other games that the improved Inv has saved, and I think you'll be okay.

Turn 5: -1 Ld vs Morale Immunity and double-wounds for bracket checks
100% upgrade. I had to look up all the buffs, but they were just to confirm the order they happened in. But this one from the old 'dex? Couldn't even remember it. It just NEVER mattered. Not once. Please regale me with your 9th edition stories where it mattered, because I'd love to laugh at the poor schmuck that had the misfortune of being one of the few players on planet Earth to suffer from this. Morale immunity? Hey, like the last one, there are times where it matters and it stings, especially at the end of the game (where it's also least likely to come up, but w/e). The double-wounds for brackets though is CLUTCH!!! Why? Because of movement! Suffering less, or not suffering at all, to your movement in that last turn is really phenomenal, and gives vehicle-based Drukhari forces a big end-game push.


So yeah. This is an upgrade in pretty much every way that matters, no?

In almost every way, except for the Covens that start with a 5++ or 4++ if that is going to remain the same. Their inherent Invuln saves mean that they get no benefit from the PFP turn 1 and 4 effects. Whereas before, the durability of some of the coven units was a 4++ with a PFP ability. But as someone else mentioned in a different thread, perhaps their ability will read something to the effect of "add 1 to the invuln save granted by PFP"

 Galas wrote:
Deepstrike and charge in 9th was much weaker than advance and charge not by the rule but because deepstrike is just too weak right now. Better to start on the board and just move where you want to be.

 Icculus wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....

I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.

I'm not reading either of those. It says "All units.... in that Detachment gain a Drukhari Obsession"

The drukhari obsessions are the titles of all the special features that could apply to cults, or covens or kabals. So you pick 3 obsessions, one cult obsession, one kabal obsession, and one coven obsession, and all units would gain the appropriate type. Because based on the datasheets, coven units can only get coven obsessions, cult units can only get cult obsessions and kabals can only get kabal obsessions.

This is how I read it. In those rules you need to change the <keywords> for the ones you are selecting, so the rule as written lets you change the keyword three times, one for each type.

So, when applied to your army, it would read:

... As well as gaining Drukhari Obsessions for each <Black Heart>, <Red Grief> and <Prophets of Flesh> unit in a Realspace Raid Detachment...

You're not wrong. Deep strike is basically only useful for protecting a vulnerable shooting unit or for deploying an el chepo unit to some area on the board where he can start an action.

Rihgu wrote:

Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....

I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.

Not sure about that either. Definitely need a FAQ or supporting language.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Rihgu wrote:

Realspace Raid is hyper-powerful. Each INDIVIDUAL UNIT can have their own drukhari obsession if you want - holy crap. I can have poisoned tongue kabalites and Black Heart ravagers and a custom close combat kabal archon and court if I want to.You give up on some aura synergy potentially, but given the archon's new aura power...,not THAT Much....

I don't think that's how it works. My reading is that you pick one Obsession and it applies to all models in that detachment, so if you pick Poisoned Tongue, even though it's a Kabal, your Wyches and Wracks get the Obsession too.

Not sure about that either. Definitely need a FAQ or supporting language.

There's at least four ways I can interpret it functioning, so it definitely needs to be cleaned up.

 Icculus wrote:
In almost every way, except for the Covens that start with a 5++ or 4++ if that is going to remain the same. Their inherent Invuln saves mean that they get no benefit from the PFP turn 1 and 4 effects. Whereas before, the durability of some of the coven units was a 4++ with a PFP ability. But as someone else mentioned in a different thread, perhaps their ability will read something to the effect of "add 1 to the invuln save granted by PFP"

Yeah, but I wouldn't hold your breath on those things staying the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see things like Wracks gaining something like permanent trans-human or some other kind of toughness-boosting schtick. Lots of stuff could be changing here, and it'd be silly to think that all the obsessions and stat-lines will stay the same.

I am confused. Are we missing some information?

If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?

Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?

Reading further the real space raid unit seemingly can combine things freely. But if we want the bonus special feature it needs 1 of each HQ and 1 of each basic troop? Meaning we loose out on having 3 patrolls for 0 CP.

So the most common ways will be

A) 3 patrols, one witch can be mixed at 0 CP loss.
B) One super detachment non patroll with 3 HQ and 3 troops for 0 CP loss. Optionally with more detachments at CP loss.
C) Some other combination are regular CP losses, one that can be mixed.

Is this right?

Also, I really like that the true born are back! But we need anrcon to unlock each of them? Perhaps also wytches get blood brides back (speculation.)

 Jidmah wrote:
Realspace raiders also is good news for chaos undivided players.

Oooooh.....dang. Now you got me all hype.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
I am confused. Are we missing some information?

If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?

Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?

Real space can be any type, but obviously at least a Battalion, which means your other Patrols no longer cost 0 if you do so.

An Obsession is a special rule that all units with the relevant <keyword> get in a detachment which contains units with only one <keyword>.

The realspace raiders detachment is a special detachment that enables the Obsession rule for all <keyword> units, regardless of whether or not the unit is entirely composed of units of one <keyword>.

as written, tehre is no stipulation that you must only choose one <kabal> one <coven> and one <cult> to gain their obsession rules.

 Icculus wrote:


In almost every way, except for the Covens that start with a 5++ or 4++ if that is going to remain the same. Their inherent Invuln saves mean that they get no benefit from the PFP turn 1 and 4 effects. Whereas before, the durability of some of the coven units was a 4++ with a PFP ability. But as someone else mentioned in a different thread, perhaps their ability will read something to the effect of "add 1 to the invuln save granted by PFP"

PoF trait is likely 6+++ at this point.

Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

 vipoid wrote:
Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

It's an Invuln now. Not a FNP.

 vipoid wrote:
Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

No. They don’t get it at all as an army-wide rule at all. It was swapped out for an Invulnerable save if they don’t take allies.

 Niiai wrote:
I am confused. Are we missing some information?

If ever detachment is a patrol detachment each of them only cost 0 CP. But what is a real space raiding force? One where we can mix units within that one detachment?

Also, do all of this shut off when we bring allies? Drukahri also loose the power from pain ability?

Reading further the real space raid unit seemingly can combine things freely. But if we want the bonus special feature it needs 1 of each HQ and 1 of each basic troop? Meaning we loose out on having 3 patrolls for 0 CP.

So the most common ways will be

A) 3 patrols, one witch can be mixed at 0 CP loss.
B) One super detachment non patroll with 3 HQ and 3 troops for 0 CP loss. Optionally with more detachments at CP loss.
C) Some other combination are regular CP losses, one that can be mixed.

Is this right?

Yeah, you’ve got that, pretty much. Triple Patrol like the current book costs zero, or big block raiding force costs zero, but not both.

Just two or four patrols should also be possible for free.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

It's an Invuln now. Not a FNP.

Meant PfP, not FNP.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

It's an Invuln now. Not a FNP.

Meant PfP, not FNP.

That's 9th for you, soup is punished.

Now, Imperium gets to take Agents without losing benefits, would be nice to see a Solitaire be an Agent of the Aeldari.

The way I read the new detachment rules is that 3 Patrols will give you a net gain of 2 CP.

The Command Cost of each Patrol is reduced to 0CP, but there is nothing that removes the Command Benefit of gaining +2CP if your Warlord is in a Patrol.

Aash wrote:
The way I read the new detachment rules is that 3 Patrols will give you a net gain of 2 CP.

The Command Cost of each Patrol is reduced to 0CP, but there is nothing that removes the Command Benefit of gaining +2CP if your Warlord is in a Patrol.

Oh that's sexy!

 bullyboy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

It's an Invuln now. Not a FNP.

Meant PfP, not FNP.

That's 9th for you, soup is punished.

That's just plain dishonest.

For every other army, not-souping is rewarded with extra rules.

For Dark Eldar, souping is punished with the loss of a previously-core rule.

I think it needs to be remembered this is a WarCom article, they're not exactly known for writing up their rules previews to be 100% verbatum to whats in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only things here that seem unequivecally great are Combat Drugs, being able to freely pick or roll to get 2 is immesurably better than the crappy set up we used to have, and Poisoned Tongue who are clearly no longer the wooden spoon option of the Kabal Obsessions.

 vipoid wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Wait, DE now only get FNP if they don't take allies?

Feth off, GW.

It's an Invuln now. Not a FNP.

Meant PfP, not FNP.

That's 9th for you, soup is punished.

That's just plain dishonest.

For every other army, not-souping is rewarded with extra rules.

For Dark Eldar, souping is punished with the loss of a previously-core rule.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are other faction-wide rules left to be revealed. I remember Disgustingly Resilient and Contagions had two separate reveals with Malicious Volley and more not known until the book came out.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Yea I don't quite get Sunny's point. Marines are forced mono often.

I think Sunny's point is that Canticles might become a thing that disallows for multiple Forge Worlds in your army?

Truthfully, I think "Engine War" gave us a good glimpse to where Canticles might be going. We got Forge World specific Canticles in there, so I'm curious if they're going to become a more integrated part of the army roster than they are now.

If it does, it'd be a first. Sisters' Rites, marines Doctrines, Drukhari's PFP and necrons' protocols all stick around if you have multiple subfactions in your army.

No, you lose Protocols if you have more than one subfaction. I'm hoping for other factions sake that this was just a Necron thing. We've also got a ton of other hoops to jump through as well that the other armies haven't gotten, so I think it's likely a one off thing.