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 vipoid wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that DE HQs aren't CORE, so their auras don't even work on themselves?

Only the skorpekh can buff itself out of recent books. Chapter master can cover characters as well. I think that's it.

 Ghaz wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that DE HQs aren't CORE, so their auras don't even work on themselves?

That's the point of the CORE keyword. From 'Core Units and Characters' on Warhammer Community:

A crucial side-effect of this change is that Characters themselves won’t be affected by aura abilities that utilise the Core keyword – they’re supposed to be commanding others, not inspiring themselves to do better! In the example shown above, the Space Marine Captain won’t be able to re-roll his hit rolls of 1 and will instead have to rely on his own merit to strike home. To be fair, he’ll usually hit on a 2+ anyway!

Sure. But it also means that Archons can command a grand total of 3 units.

Though I'll add that only ever helping/inspiring others is weirdly altruistic, given the nature of DE.

 Argive wrote:


Theres plenty of things "no one" has aaprt from a certain faction has... Thats the whole points of having individual factions and armies having their "thing".

It seems looking at the starts and what not is a whole lot of nothing burger sadly.

DE still definitely has their thing.

Not sure what your second sentence is referencing.

 vipoid wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that DE HQs aren't CORE, so their auras don't even work on themselves?

That's the point of the CORE keyword. From 'Core Units and Characters' on Warhammer Community:

A crucial side-effect of this change is that Characters themselves won’t be affected by aura abilities that utilise the Core keyword – they’re supposed to be commanding others, not inspiring themselves to do better! In the example shown above, the Space Marine Captain won’t be able to re-roll his hit rolls of 1 and will instead have to rely on his own merit to strike home. To be fair, he’ll usually hit on a 2+ anyway!

Sure. But it also means that Archons can command a grand total of 3 units.

Though I'll add that only ever helping/inspiring others is weirdly altruistic, given the nature of DE.

I'd say less altruistic and more like threatening them to fight harder lest they choose not to regenerate them with haemonculi services if they die.

 Grimskul wrote:

I'd say less altruistic and more like threatening them to fight harder lest they choose not to regenerate them with haemonculi services if they die.

Given that Haemonculi can't regenerate anything that isn't Coven, I'd say the last part is a given.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that DE HQs aren't CORE, so their auras don't even work on themselves?

Only the skorpekh can buff itself out of recent books. Chapter master can cover characters as well. I think that's it.

The Skorpekh Lord (and Skorpekh Destroyers) have the DESTROYER CULT keyword, not the CORE keyword. Only Necron Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Deathmarks and Tomb Blades have the CORE keyword.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that DE HQs aren't CORE, so their auras don't even work on themselves?

Only the skorpekh can buff itself out of recent books. Chapter master can cover characters as well. I think that's it.

The Skorpekh Lord (and Skorpekh Destroyers) have the DESTROYER CULT keyword, not the CORE keyword. Only Necron Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Deathmarks and Tomb Blades have the CORE keyword.

Right - the takeaway is that characters largely don't get rerolls and if they do it likely isn't from an aura.

Yeah, the Goonhammer review is weird, it's like they were so bowled over by not getting totally brushed off that they gave it an A+ just for that reason.

What looks solid to me about the book is that the internal balance seems much better (and a Succubi with the mortal wounds on 6s to hit seems kinda broken, if super RNGy). Other than that, there's a few neat little tricks thrown in here and there, but a lot of the problems with the 8th edition codex remain, and some of them are actually made worse (scourges being punished for being mobile, not being able to take Drazhar in their new shiny detachment that's supposed to fix the problems, vehicles getting effectively slower, Lelith still confused and junk, etc etc).

Don't get me wrong, it's a big boost on the old book...but I suspect views on it are going to look different 2-3 months from now than they do right now.

 vipoid wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I'd say less altruistic and more like threatening them to fight harder lest they choose not to regenerate them with haemonculi services if they die.

Given that Haemonculi can't regenerate anything that isn't Coven, I'd say the last part is a given.

Haha true....such is the life in Commoragh.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Am I correct in thinking that DE HQs aren't CORE, so their auras don't even work on themselves?

Only the skorpekh can buff itself out of recent books. Chapter master can cover characters as well. I think that's it.

The Skorpekh Lord (and Skorpekh Destroyers) have the DESTROYER CULT keyword, not the CORE keyword. Only Necron Warriors, Immortals, Lychguard, Deathmarks and Tomb Blades have the CORE keyword.

Right - the takeaway is that characters largely don't get rerolls and if they do it likely isn't from an aura.

The point is that you can't compare other keywords with how the CORE keyword works. Most likely the Skorpekh Lord would have had the ability to re-roll a wound roll of 1 which was rolled into the DESTROYER CULT keyword instead of making an exception as to why the Skorpekh Lord didn't benefit from both the United in Destruction aura and his own ability.

 vipoid wrote:
The Goonhammer review does seem to be overselling the book a tad, to the point of dishonestly in places.

They're entitled to their opinion of the book, even if it isn't as morose as yours. Claiming dishonesty because they're not in lockstep with you is uncalled for.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Too bad they didn't get that special rule that allows them to move while firing heavy weapons like literally every other heavy weapons team unit has gotten in the last couple years. Even though they have wings.

Not seeing anything stopping them moving and firing, though they will be less accurate if they do so.

Aside from the Succubi that can consolidate 6" in any direction, there doesn't seem to be a lot of sneaky tricks in this book. Black Templars are still, somewhat ironically, a lot trickier than DE in terms of the weird stuff they can pull off. The other stuff is mostly just based on RNG (turning off obsec, making stuff fight last aside from the vex mask, stopping falling back), which makes it unreliable and difficult to plan around.

Well, and the "fly a bunch of Hellions over a character to instagib it," which I'm not sure is going to survive a FAQ - these rules almost always always have a minus to the roll when you target a character.

 Dysartes wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
The Goonhammer review does seem to be overselling the book a tad, to the point of dishonestly in places.

They're entitled to their opinion of the book, even if it isn't as morose as yours. Claiming dishonesty because they're not in lockstep with you is uncalled for.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Too bad they didn't get that special rule that allows them to move while firing heavy weapons like literally every other heavy weapons team unit has gotten in the last couple years. Even though they have wings.

Not seeing anything stopping them moving and firing, though they will be less accurate if they do so.

Except for the fact that they can't be 100% impartial where yukishiro for sure has no such restriction when stating his opinions.
They speak of the Drukhari codex as the forthcoming of a new age of xeno dominance when in reality it's a 8.5 codex with few problems fixed and same old ones still there.

Master Succubus w/ Agoniser

Take the +3A agoniser relic ( and D2, 2+ poison ). +1A on charge drug. Trait - on unmods 6s to hit cause MW = weapons damage and end sequence.

There's a decent chance for 4 mortal wounds there plus an additional 4 against literally any non-vehicle character with a 4++. Yeesh. I guess Red Grief for +2M and reroll charges? That with advance and charge on turn 2 makes it a given for her to make it somewhere.

That definitely makes Lelith ONLY good as a W1 horde killer and this one the everything else killer.

To be fair to Goonhammer, they're not hesitant to say when something sucks. I am firmly convinced they really do think this book is the bee's knees. And who knows, maybe it is. They're not idiots. But it does feel to me like some of their adjectives aren't really warranted here. This strikes me as a Necron-type book - a big improvement on the 8th edition Codex, but not on the same level as stuff like the Death Guard or Dark Angels books in terms of reinventing the faction - and also a book that, although it certainly improves on the idiocy of the 8th edition codex, still retains some of the significant problems with it.

To me it feels like reading this book that GW still doesn't really have a vision for what Xenos are supposed to be besides a hard-mode way to play the game that lacks either the raw power or the tricks of human-based armies, but makes up for it to some extent with masses of cheaply pointed junk that can play the mission while being wiped. I.e. factions with a higher skill floor, but without the higher skill cap to match it.

It used to be that Xenos armies had most of the weird tricks, but that seems to be firmly a thing of the past, with space marines getting essentially every trick that other armies used to have, without those armies seeing an increase in the amount of tricks they can play themselves. I think Drukhari are going to be competitive with this new Codex, but I'm not sure they're really going to feel any more like they ought to than they did in 8th.

yukishiro1 wrote:
still retains some of the significant problems with it.

What major problems do you think remain?

I added a paragraph explaining in broad terms. But we can take a couple examples, one specific and one more general.

First, the specific. Master Archon. A Master Archon is someone who has climbed the ranks of a legendarily treacherous, double-crossing society through being more ruthless, more cunning, and more devious than anyone else. And that's represented in game by...a once per game fight twice, and a relic and warlord traits that make him more resilient and hit harder. Does that really seem right? It's not that it's ineffective...it's just that it doesn't feel like the rules are really representing what they ought to be representing.

Then a broader observation: Drukhari are not even close to as fast or tricky an army as any of the space marine chapters focused on mobility and trickery. To take one specific example: Black templars can put bladeguard in an impulsor, move the impulsor 14", disembark 3", move the bladeguard 6"+1d6" rerolled, then pile-in 6" into combat without even having to charge, thereby avoiding overwatch or anything else that depends on a charge reaction. All of this is guaranteed, there's no RNG involved, it just happens (even the 6" pile-in as opposed to 3" can be guaranteed by spending the CP to auto-pass the litany on the primaris biker chaplain that, once again, just auto-advanced 20"). Or you can deep strike something in any easily get a 7" rerollable charge. You can't even Vect any of it anymore, because, well, that got removed.

Drukhari? Well, uh, they can deep-strike a transport then immediately disembark...still 9" from the enemy. That's their sneaky trick. Again, the point isn't that the Drukarhi book is bad...just that it's, well, bland compared to the amazing tricks Space Marines can pull off. I read this book and I think "that seems strong" here and there, but what I don't think is "that seems devious" or "wow, that's a totally awesome trick that really makes this army feel unique!" Except for the 6" consolidate in any direction succubus. That's a great example of how this book should be in general, but instead, it ends up being a rare exception.

 Dysartes wrote:
Not seeing anything stopping them moving and firing, though they will be less accurate if they do so.

Just pondering as I paw through the book.

Maybe people should treat them more like assault marines instead of devastators? With M14, A2/3, blade artists - use blasters to shoot on the move - maybe Black Heart realspace to give them run and charge turn 1. Otherwise they'll have to plan on spending to spend the 2CP to move them back into cover after shooting or deepstrike and hope for good rolls before they die.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I added a paragraph explaining in broad terms. But we can take a couple examples, one specific and one more general.

First, the specific. Master Archon. A Master Archon is someone who has climbed the ranks of a legendarily treacherous, double-crossing society through being more ruthless, more cunning, and more devious than anyone else. And that's represented in game by...a once per game fight twice, and a relic and warlord traits that make him more resilient and hit harder. Does that really seem right? It's not that it's ineffective...it's just that it doesn't feel like the rules are really representing what they ought to be representing.

Then a broader observation: Drukhari are not even close to as fast or tricky an army as any of the space marine chapters focused on mobility and trickery. To take one specific example: Black templars can put bladeguard in an impulsor, move the impulsor 14", disembark 3", move the bladeguard 6"+1d6" rerolled, then pile-in 6" into combat without even having to charge, thereby avoiding overwatch or anything else that depends on a charge reaction. All of this is guaranteed, there's no RNG involved, it just happens (even the 6" pile-in as opposed to 3" can be guaranteed by spending the CP to auto-pass the litany on the primaris biker chaplain that, once again, just auto-advanced 20"). Or you can deep strike something in any easily get a 7" rerollable charge. You can't even Vect any of it anymore, because, well, that got removed.

Drukhari? Well, uh, they can deep-strike a transport then immediately disembark...still 9" from the enemy. That's their sneaky trick. Again, the point isn't that the Drukarhi book is bad...just that it's, well, bland compared to the amazing tricks Space Marines can pull off. I read this book and I think "that seems strong" here and there, but what I don't think is "that seems devious" or "wow, that's a totally awesome trick that really makes this army feel unique!" Except for the 6" consolidate in any direction succubus. That's a great example of how this book should be in general, but instead, it ends up being a rare exception.

Gotcha. Yea - not much contending with BT. Isn't it a regular 3" pile-in with a 6" consolidate though? The book is definitely in the killy rather than sneaky realm.

You can turn it into 6" with canticle. I mean you don't even need it most of the time, you still have a 14" + 3 + 6" + 1d6 rerolled (call it a 4") + 3" = average 30" threat range without it, it's just that you can bump it up to 33" if you really need to, and again, it just happens (with the CP investment if necessary), no rolling required.

And that's Black Templars, an army that aren't even known for their sneakiness. Dark Angels can do all sorts of sneaky nonsense too that again makes Drukhari feel totally inadequate on the tricksy scale, ditto Raven Guard or White Scars. Even generic space marines arguably have more tricks in 9th than Drukhari.

Another way I could put this is: this codex feels more like what the 8th edition codex should have been, rather than what the 9th edition codex should be.

Not sure if this was already posted (probably was), there have been a lot of posts since I was last on this thread.

Drazhar and Lilith datasheets:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/03/warhammer-40k-drazhar-lilith-new-rules.html

yukishiro1 wrote:
I added a paragraph explaining in broad terms. But we can take a couple examples, one specific and one more general.

First, the specific. Master Archon. A Master Archon is someone who has climbed the ranks of a legendarily treacherous, double-crossing society through being more ruthless, more cunning, and more devious than anyone else. And that's represented in game by...a once per game fight twice, and a relic and warlord traits that make him more resilient and hit harder. Does that really seem right? It's not that it's ineffective...it's just that it doesn't feel like the rules are really representing what they ought to be representing.

Then a broader observation: Drukhari are not even close to as fast or tricky an army as any of the space marine chapters focused on mobility and trickery. To take one specific example: Black templars can put bladeguard in an impulsor, move the impulsor 14", disembark 3", move the bladeguard 6"+1d6" rerolled, then pile-in 6" into combat without even having to charge, thereby avoiding overwatch or anything else that depends on a charge reaction. All of this is guaranteed, there's no RNG involved, it just happens (even the 6" pile-in as opposed to 3" can be guaranteed by spending the CP to auto-pass the litany on the primaris biker chaplain that, once again, just auto-advanced 20"). Or you can deep strike something in any easily get a 7" rerollable charge. You can't even Vect any of it anymore, because, well, that got removed.

Drukhari? Well, uh, they can deep-strike a transport then immediately disembark...still 9" from the enemy. That's their sneaky trick. Again, the point isn't that the Drukarhi book is bad...just that it's, well, bland compared to the amazing tricks Space Marines can pull off. I read this book and I think "that seems strong" here and there, but what I don't think is "that seems devious" or "wow, that's a totally awesome trick that really makes this army feel unique!" Except for the 6" consolidate in any direction succubus. That's a great example of how this book should be in general, but instead, it ends up being a rare exception.

Drukhari can move a unit, shoot with it, then move another 7" and charge. All those little tricks always come after months of people experimentating with the supplements and codex. Is not like people was doing that kind of stuff day 1 with those armies.

Now, what I'm missing from this book is a "invisible wargear" table for all HQ's. Or at least Haemunculus, now that they don't have gear options.

 Galas wrote:


Drukhari can move a unit, shoot with it, then move another 7" and charge. All those little tricks always come after months of people experimentating with the supplements and codex. Is not like people was doing that kind of stuff day 1 with those armies.

Now, what I'm missing from this book is a "invisible wargear" table for all HQ's. Or at least Haemunculus, now that they don't have gear options.

No charging after that strat. I agree that there still seems to be a fair to be explore. I predict marines will be complaining about getting thrashed by DE in 2 to 3 months time and the natural order of things will be restored.

Does anyone know if Warriors and Wyches have been re-boxed with 28.5 mm bases?

 Deathwolf wrote:
Does anyone know if Warriors and Wyches have been re-boxed with 28.5 mm bases?

This would interest me too. I wouldn't want to rebase my army.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Master Succubus w/ Agoniser

Take the +3A agoniser relic ( and D2, 2+ poison ). +1A on charge drug. Trait - on unmods 6s to hit cause MW = weapons damage and end sequence.

There's a decent chance for 4 mortal wounds there plus an additional 4 against literally any non-vehicle character with a 4++. Yeesh. I guess Red Grief for +2M and reroll charges? That with advance and charge on turn 2 makes it a given for her to make it somewhere.

That definitely makes Lelith ONLY good as a W1 horde killer and this one the everything else killer.

It doesnt seem like a terrible build, you can make it better with the blood glaive (damage 3), but I cant believe everyone is missing the meme potential of razorflail hypex quicksilver fighter succubus in cursed blade.

18 s4 ap-1 d1 attacks.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Master Succubus w/ Agoniser

Take the +3A agoniser relic ( and D2, 2+ poison ). +1A on charge drug. Trait - on unmods 6s to hit cause MW = weapons damage and end sequence.

There's a decent chance for 4 mortal wounds there plus an additional 4 against literally any non-vehicle character with a 4++. Yeesh. I guess Red Grief for +2M and reroll charges? That with advance and charge on turn 2 makes it a given for her to make it somewhere.

That definitely makes Lelith ONLY good as a W1 horde killer and this one the everything else killer.

It doesnt seem like a terrible build, you can make it better with the blood glaive (damage 3), but I cant believe everyone is missing the meme potential of razorflail hypex quicksilver fighter succubus in cursed blade.

18 s4 ap-1 d1 attacks.

But you'd lose the +3A, right? That's what would make it easier to gather a couple/few sixes.

The other one though...Blendy Blendersson.

 Deathwolf wrote:
Does anyone know if Warriors and Wyches have been re-boxed with 28.5 mm bases?

Nope, just the Incubi...they are a lil bit larger and would overhang a 25mm.

 Galas wrote:


Drukhari can move a unit, shoot with it, then move another 7" and charge. All those little tricks always come after months of people experimentating with the supplements and codex. Is not like people was doing that kind of stuff day 1 with those armies.

Now, what I'm missing from this book is a "invisible wargear" table for all HQ's. Or at least Haemunculus, now that they don't have gear options.

1. No you can't, and FnF isn't even new anyway, either itself (that goes back to 8th) or the concept of move-shoot-move which has been around for ages now. Nor is it even unique to Drukhari, for that matter.

2. You may not have seen the potential for devout push or other similarly important, faction-defining stratagems immediately, but plenty of us did. You don't have to take my word for it, you can go back to when it first came out and see people talking about the potential within literally hours.

You're free to disagree with my point if you want, but please don't state false things in support.

Well, if theres a prohibition of charging in the English version of the stratagem I'll apologice. In the spanish one theres no such one (Another error of translation, of course).

Ooph, if so, that's embarrassing for GW (well, I mean, even more embarrassing than usual). The stratagem has been around for years now.