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the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Kind of depends. I very occasionally try deepstriking maxed out squads of kabalites. Currently, you can get 4 darklight shots (5 counting a blast pistol) into a single squad that then has 15 ablative wounds that can each contribute a couple of poison shots. If Hunt From the Shadows remains unchanged, those ablative wounds could be rocking 2+ saves in cover, and they'll suddenly have twice the attacks in melee. So something like that might become more viable rather than purely being "cute." I probably wouldn't count on warriors to hug objectives in the backfield just because of a 4+ save though. They'd still have the same problems dire avengers do when they try that.

At 8 points a go you would be getting quite a few more bodies than Dire Avengers.

I think it depends on special rules/synergies, will power from pain be changed (almost certainly) and so on.
If kabalites can be made into a half-way credible melee threat then I think masses of them could be interesting.

But then if they do have that melee ability, it raises questions for what Wyches/Wracks look like.

I'm guessing Wracks are going to be significantly less potent than they are now given their new 8ppm price tag. Would not be surprised to see covens lose their invuln saves.

The problem with Wracks is that their damage output is almost none existent, their whole point is to be tougher than our other troops, take away their invulns and they'll be completely useless.

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Kind of depends. I very occasionally try deepstriking maxed out squads of kabalites. Currently, you can get 4 darklight shots (5 counting a blast pistol) into a single squad that then has 15 ablative wounds that can each contribute a couple of poison shots. If Hunt From the Shadows remains unchanged, those ablative wounds could be rocking 2+ saves in cover, and they'll suddenly have twice the attacks in melee. So something like that might become more viable rather than purely being "cute." I probably wouldn't count on warriors to hug objectives in the backfield just because of a 4+ save though. They'd still have the same problems dire avengers do when they try that.

At 8 points a go you would be getting quite a few more bodies than Dire Avengers.

I think it depends on special rules/synergies, will power from pain be changed (almost certainly) and so on.
If kabalites can be made into a half-way credible melee threat then I think masses of them could be interesting.

But then if they do have that melee ability, it raises questions for what Wyches/Wracks look like.

I'm guessing Wracks are going to be significantly less potent than they are now given their new 8ppm price tag. Would not be surprised to see covens lose their invuln saves.

The problem with Wracks is that their damage output is almost none existent, their whole point is to be tougher than our other troops, take away their invulns and they'll be completely useless.

I'm not saying I know, what I am saying is what I think they're going to do. if you made me guess based on the 8ppm price tag, I'd say:

-Invuln gone
-maybe a 5+ armor given kabs went to 4+
-A3 with poison as now
-8ppm

that would put wyches at A4 with the knife, dodge and no escape, kabs at A2, wracks at A3 with poison.

I don't see it. 8 point models with invulnerables isn't an issue. Daemons come in 9, 8 and even 7 point varieties, some with much better base weapons.

I think Wracks with 5++ will stay....but I doubt that Prophets of Flesh will still boost it to 4++

 harlokin wrote:
I think Wracks with 5++ will stay....but I doubt that Prophets of Flesh will still boost it to 4++

Pretty much this. I mean, I think there is a very small chance 4++ becomes the default save, but an all out bonus to invuln save from picking a sub-coven is gone considering the fact that it is just overwhelmingly better than other sub-faction bonuses.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:


Well that is interesting, but you guys in US use strange definition what a race is. Because here, where I go to school, humans still have one race. Not one new every 500y. Because if that was true, my country that has history of over 300y, would be populated by bucket loads of different races of humans.

The fall of the eldar happened in 30k. Thats 10 000 years of evolution that could happen.
Combine that with the stark differences between Eldar and Deldar and yes, evolution is very well possible.
Deldar lost their psychic abilties, Eldar are still a psychic race. Both were psychic 10k years ago.

There is more differences between Eldar and Deldar than between Humans and Space marines

DE didn't lose their psychic abilities. they just kill everyone who tries to use them, it is one of the few things they all agree on.
And ton of eldar didn't go through 10k years of evolution, because they were born before or just after the cataclysm. And DE on top of that breed through clone vats, so only the children of the children of true born could under go any form of evolution. This means were are talking about the top 10% of a nearly extinct race, having to breed with other members of their race who are also the top 10%, which itself is rare for DE, and then repeated multiple times, while living in a hellhole.
And there are no more difference between marines and humans, then DE an Eldar. DE and eldar, and harlis and exos can still have living children, that can have children themselfs. Marines, even if they wanted can not have children.
They are as different from the human race as navigators.
That is like expecting a new race to pop up in Liberia.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
Kind of depends. I very occasionally try deepstriking maxed out squads of kabalites. Currently, you can get 4 darklight shots (5 counting a blast pistol) into a single squad that then has 15 ablative wounds that can each contribute a couple of poison shots. If Hunt From the Shadows remains unchanged, those ablative wounds could be rocking 2+ saves in cover, and they'll suddenly have twice the attacks in melee. So something like that might become more viable rather than purely being "cute." I probably wouldn't count on warriors to hug objectives in the backfield just because of a 4+ save though. They'd still have the same problems dire avengers do when they try that.

At 8 points a go you would be getting quite a few more bodies than Dire Avengers.

I think it depends on special rules/synergies, will power from pain be changed (almost certainly) and so on.
If kabalites can be made into a half-way credible melee threat then I think masses of them could be interesting.

But then if they do have that melee ability, it raises questions for what Wyches/Wracks look like.

I'm guessing Wracks are going to be significantly less potent than they are now given their new 8ppm price tag. Would not be surprised to see covens lose their invuln saves.

The problem with Wracks is that their damage output is almost none existent, their whole point is to be tougher than our other troops, take away their invulns and they'll be completely useless.

I'm not saying I know, what I am saying is what I think they're going to do. if you made me guess based on the 8ppm price tag, I'd say:

-Invuln gone
-maybe a 5+ armor given kabs went to 4+
-A3 with poison as now
-8ppm

that would put wyches at A4 with the knife, dodge and no escape, kabs at A2, wracks at A3 with poison.

At the moment I don't trust the FAQ's points values as being related to the new codex.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
I think Wracks with 5++ will stay....but I doubt that Prophets of Flesh will still boost it to 4++

Pretty much this. I mean, I think there is a very small chance 4++ becomes the default save, but an all out bonus to invuln save from picking a sub-coven is gone considering the fact that it is just overwhelmingly better than other sub-faction bonuses.

Honestly i'd love for coven to get a 4++ and Prophets to get a new obsession. Dark creed and Co12 were basically never taken because prophets was necessary to function (until DT happened).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:


DE didn't lose their psychic abilities. they just kill everyone who tries to use them, it is one of the few things they all agree on.
And ton of eldar didn't go through 10k years of evolution, because they were born before or just after the cataclysm. And DE on top of that breed through clone vats, so only the children of the children of true born could under go any form of evolution. This means were are talking about the top 10% of a nearly extinct race, having to breed with other members of their race who are also the top 10%, which itself is rare for DE, and then repeated multiple times, while living in a hellhole.
And there are no more difference between marines and humans, then DE an Eldar. DE and eldar, and harlis and exos can still have living children, that can have children themselfs. Marines, even if they wanted can not have children.
They are as different from the human race as navigators.
That is like expecting a new race to pop up in Liberia.

all of this is ignoring the fact that DE are all-in with genetic modifications and cloning. And if we take real world equivalent where African/Asian/Caucasian/etc are considered different races only because of slight differences in bone structure, skin color and culture, then yes, DE qualify as a different race.

Anyway, why were we arguing this in the first place?

Just moving on slightly, is anyone else a little edgy over just how little there has been teased / previewed so far?

The Drukhari codex should have been released already were it not for the delays, and so far we've had - what? One article dropping the Kabalite statline and the bit about venom cannons?

I mean, they've previewed the DoK endless spells, and Uriel Ventris on his own, more than they have DE so far... I'm sure there was an awful lot more released in advance for Death Guard in particular.

Just a little worried I guess that maybe GW aren't that excited by it, and does that mean it's been just phoned in...

Crispy78 wrote:
Just moving on slightly, is anyone else a little edgy over just how little there has been teased / previewed so far?

The Drukhari codex should have been released already were it not for the delays, and so far we've had - what? One article dropping the Kabalite statline and the bit about venom cannons?

I mean, they've previewed the DoK endless spells, and Uriel Ventris on his own, more than they have DE so far... I'm sure there was an awful lot more released in advance for Death Guard in particular.

Just a little worried I guess that maybe GW aren't that excited by it, and does that mean it's been just phoned in...

We should start getting more previews pretty soon, what we got was just a taste since they still had the DA codex to release. Since its out, we're in elf season.

Crispy78 wrote:
Just moving on slightly, is anyone else a little edgy over just how little there has been teased / previewed so far?

The Drukhari codex should have been released already were it not for the delays, and so far we've had - what? One article dropping the Kabalite statline and the bit about venom cannons?

I mean, they've previewed the DoK endless spells, and Uriel Ventris on his own, more than they have DE so far... I'm sure there was an awful lot more released in advance for Death Guard in particular.

Just a little worried I guess that maybe GW aren't that excited by it, and does that mean it's been just phoned in...

For the record, I'm with you.

But they have also previewed changes to Incubi and the DE vs. Sisters box set that has the new Lelith in it. We also know you'll be able to mix troops from all three sub-factions into the same detachment. That, plus the two you mentioned are all the previews I've seen or heard about.

Once I learned that Kill Team is the February 27th release, it eased my mind a bit, because it means the DE release won't be until March 13th. That puts us almost a full month away. I expect hype to start in earnest on March 1.

Crispy78 wrote:
Just moving on slightly, is anyone else a little edgy over just how little there has been teased / previewed so far?

The Drukhari codex should have been released already were it not for the delays, and so far we've had - what? One article dropping the Kabalite statline and the bit about venom cannons?

I mean, they've previewed the DoK endless spells, and Uriel Ventris on his own, more than they have DE so far... I'm sure there was an awful lot more released in advance for Death Guard in particular.

Just a little worried I guess that maybe GW aren't that excited by it, and does that mean it's been just phoned in...

Death Guard were pushed back at very late notice, WarCom was left having to put out previews for a codex that was now a month away instead of a week, either that or not put anything out. Dark Angels had their previews as normal, in the week leading up to preorder and it'll be the same for Drukhari and every other faction.

Yeah. You will get the preview the week before the pre-order.

Could be next week, more likely the one after that. Or further out depending on their continued logistics problems.

Yeah, I’m assuming the codex is still 1-2 months away. Depending on if it comes before or after the Charadon-book.

But the reboxing of some of our units should give us some more info before the preview week, at least! (Not sure if stat lines out of context is the Best thing for my personal sanity, but beggars can’t be choosers!)

I suspect we will see Pre-Order announcement of the Codex on Sunday, followed by a week of preview articles, and then Pre-Order on 2/27.

As for Wracks, I wonder if GW will use all the design space they gave themselves by moving Marines to 2 Wounds and changing Disgustingly Resilient to -1 Damage? They could easily revamp the Covens units away from Invulnerable Saves and allow them to build three different resilience templates into the Drukhari army. Everyone has Power from Pain and 6+++, but they could then build off the basic units being something like:

Kult: T3, Sv 4+, W1 (as shown)

Coven: T3, Sv 6+, W1, Dodge Invulnerable

Kabal: T4, Sv 6+, W2 and/or improved Ignore Wounds

I'm not going to hold my breath, but it would be an interesting way to make them different from each other.

ursvamp wrote:
Yeah, I’m assuming the codex is still 1-2 months away.

Unlikely at this point. 2-3 weeks, maybe 4 at the outside stretch. (Barring even more logistical issues, but I suspect any new ones will be regionalized, whether its customs nonsense or weather).

Maybe 5 if you're looking for release date rather preorder date. The apparently small scale of this release works in favor of just kicking the book out the door and letting the special character catch up whenever. Hurrah for mixed blessings and silver (or lead) linings.

 alextroy wrote:
I suspect we will see Pre-Order announcement of the Codex on Sunday, followed by a week of preview articles, and then Pre-Order on 2/27.

As for Wracks, I wonder if GW will use all the design space they gave themselves by moving Marines to 2 Wounds and changing Disgustingly Resilient to -1 Damage? They could easily revamp the Covens units away from Invulnerable Saves and allow them to build three different resilience templates into the Drukhari army. Everyone has Power from Pain and 6+++, but they could then build off the basic units being something like:

Kult: T3, Sv 4+, W1 (as shown)

Coven: T3, Sv 6+, W1, Dodge Invulnerable

Kabal: T4, Sv 6+, W2 and/or improved Ignore Wounds

I'm not going to hold my breath, but it would be an interesting way to make them different from each other.

You may have the different subfactions mixed up here alextroy. Should be:

Kabal: T3 SV 4+ W1 (Kabalite Warriors)
Cult: T3 SV 6+ W1 +Dodge (Wyches)
Coven: T4 SV 6+ W2 +Ignore Wounds (Wracks)

Personally I could see 2W wracks and losing the PoF bonus of 4++ invuln. Maybe 5++ max and PoF does something else, PoF did steal the show almost entirely until DT got released in PA. Some rebalance to encourage the other options would be nice.

That's what I meant! I even tried to get them right, but no dice.

Am I the only one who keeps humming to himself The Eurythmics "here comes the rain again" when I read the title?

Here come the pointy elves
Cutting off my head with their Incubi.....

Some rumours starting to float around. Apply salt liberally.

Pros:

Streamlined Coven/Cult rules in combined detachments.
Some good relics.
Balanced points.

Cons:

No customisable Archons.
Succubus relegated to the now standard "lieutenant".

 baoluofu wrote:
Some rumours starting to float around. Apply salt liberally.

Pros:

Streamlined Coven/Cult rules in combined detachments.
Some good relics.
Balanced points.

Cons:

No customisable Archons.
Succubus relegated to the now standard "lieutenant".

Too generic for a leak. We know about the combined detachments from the Incubi reveal. No customizable Archons is believable though.

The whole "Succubus Lieutenant" is EXACTLY the thing I was worried about.

The "Raiding Party" rule had issues- and it would have more issues in 9th than it did in 8th because of detachment limits based on game size.

But fixing it by just saying "Kabals are always the boss but you can take everyone else in the detachment" is NOT the solution I wanted.

Because this is a rumour, and because I expect REAL information the week of March 1 or March 8, I'm not freaking out.

But there was always the possibility that GW would fix something broken by making it worse, and I've been dreading it since they announced 9th.

Once the DE and Sisters Dexes are out, I'll be able to breathe; they aren't the only two armies I play, but they are the ones I worry about the most.

 baoluofu wrote:

Streamlined Coven/Cult rules in combined detachments.

Given that 'you don't get them' is about as streamlined as it gets, this isn't particularly informative.

 baoluofu wrote:

Some good relics.

I'll be the judge of that.

 baoluofu wrote:

Balanced points.

And that.

 baoluofu wrote:

No customisable Archons.

GW putting 0 effort into DE HQs? Imagine my shock.

 baoluofu wrote:

Succubus relegated to the now standard "lieutenant".

Sorry, I'm a little confused as to what this even means.

PenitentJake wrote:
The whole "Succubus Lieutenant" is EXACTLY the thing I was worried about.

The "Raiding Party" rule had issues- and it would have more issues in 9th than it did in 8th because of detachment limits based on game size.

But fixing it by just saying "Kabals are always the boss but you can take everyone else in the detachment" is NOT the solution I wanted.

Because this is a rumour, and because I expect REAL information the week of March 1 or March 8, I'm not freaking out.

But there was always the possibility that GW would fix something broken by making it worse, and I've been dreading it since they announced 9th.

Once the DE and Sisters Dexes are out, I'll be able to breathe; they aren't the only two armies I play, but they are the ones I worry about the most.

There are a couple things I think of when I read lieutenant.

First is a two-for-one slot.
Second is characters in the Elite slot.

I don't think either of those would be "bad" would it? I don't quite understand your position I guess.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

There are a couple things I think of when I read lieutenant.

First is a two-for-one slot.
Second is characters in the Elite slot.

I don't think either of those would be "bad" would it? I don't quite understand your position I guess.

Having the Succubus in the Elite slot would be awful. We've got few enough HQs as it is. The last thing we need is for one of them to be shoved into an Elite slot instead. And probably for no other reason than so Lelith can feel important, regardless of how crap her rules are.


As for a two-for-one, that's not bad in and of itself. However, it does rather imply that the Succubus is still going to be stuck as a piece of cheap(ish) garbage, who loses a duel against anything more intimidating than a IG Commander. And instead of fixing that particular issue, GW have instead decided to let you take 2 of them per HQ slot.

Because DE are notoriously short of HQ slots.

Ah, right. I often forget about the HQ slot drought.

 vipoid wrote:

 baoluofu wrote:

Succubus relegated to the now standard "lieutenant".

Sorry, I'm a little confused as to what this even means.

It doesn't make too much sense given the current system, but I suspect the intent is that the 'rumor' suggests a vague hierarchy:
Archon on top, and Succubus as a secondary roles. (As in, Archon = SM Captain, and Succubus= Lieutenant variants) But I don't really get how this would be a meaningful change.

Lts generally don't wander into the elite slot- thats more the fate of specialists like Apothecaries (or the ninety-eleven characters like GSC and DG have), so if anyone were to get bumped out of HQ, it would be Haemonculi.

Its probably something dumb like "thy shalt take only one Archon in a detachment because that 70 point model who hits like a 35 point Marine would be mad overpowered if you could take 3.
Whereas you can take all the Succubi/Haemonculus because yolo Archite Glaive/Scissorhands hype."

Really I'm not sure these are rumours so much as just words.

That would have less to do with balance, and far more with fluff. As I understand it, having multiple Archons in the same battlefield is almost unheard of, after all there is only one Archon per Kabal.

 Tyran wrote:
That would have less to do with balance, and far more with fluff. As I understand it, having multiple Archons in the same battlefield is almost unheard of, after all there is only one Archon per Kabal.

Cool, I guess we'll just a Dracon instead.

Oh wait, those were removed.

Well, at least we can fall back on an Incubi Lieutenant.

Oh. No, we don't have those either.

Er... good job we've got Scourge Princes, right?

Oh wait, no, those don't exist either.

Ah well, at least we can always take our trusty Mandrake Lord.

Oh, nope, there I go again imaging a reality in which GW actually gives a damn about Dark Eldar.