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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Getting 2 specials with 10 is in no way comparable to getting 4 with 5.

Trueborn where 100% about how cheap a blaster boat was.

I'm betting Trueborn in a boat with two blasters, lance, and maybe a blast pistol will be popular and pretty hard to remove completely with ease.

Yeah this is what I am thinking. Always hitting on 2's is simply amazing. Trueborn will just murder flyer units...imagine if flayed skull...It makes dark lances pretty dang powerful.

I'm not sure why people think the detachment change is a big buff...you have to take the same 3HQs and 3 troops choices required to unlock the old triple patrol - worse in fact, since you're now mandated to take one of each of the six options, whereas before you could mix and match to 3 total if you didn't want to, say, take the tax wyche patrol - you have to make the archon the warlord, you have significantly less unit flexibility than you had with three patrols - you literally cannot take another HQ in the army besides those three without paying the CP for another detachment, whereas the triple patrol gives you 3 more HQs you can use for anything - ...and in return, all you get is that your archon's aura hits kabal and wych cult too and you can take kabal and wych relics.

Aeldari soup also got nerfed hard by PFP becoming a superdoctrine, and the changes from FNP to invuln on PFP suggest that wracks are losing the 5++ they had before.

The upgrades for Archons, Haem and Succubus and their retinues are a nice touch, but not something that's going to significantly change how you play unless the other stuff is totally different from the example they gave.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not sure why people think the detachment change is a big buff...you have to take the same 3HQs and 3 troops choices required to unlock the old triple patrol - worse in fact, since you're now mandated to take one of each of the six options, whereas before you could mix and match to 3 total if you didn't want to, say, take the tax wyche patrol - you have to make the archon the warlord, you have significantly less unit flexibility than you had with three patrols...and in return, all you get is that your archon's aura hits kabal and wych cult too and you can take kabal and wych relics.

its buffed because now you can take only 2 patrols if you want to, youre not forced into triple patrol to get the refund.

yukishiro1 wrote:

Aeldari soup also got nerfed hard by PFP becoming a superdoctrine, and the changes from FNP to invuln on PFP suggest that wracks are losing the 5++ they had before.

Good.

yukishiro1 wrote:

The upgrades for Archons, Haem and Succubus and their retinues are a nice touch, but not something that's going to significantly change how you play unless the other stuff is totally different from the example they gave.

We know nothing about what the HQ upgrades to tho. not really possible to pass any judgment

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not sure why people think the detachment change is a big buff...you have to take the same 3HQs and 3 troops choices required to unlock the old triple patrol - worse in fact, since you're now mandated to take one of each of the six options, whereas before you could mix and match to 3 total if you didn't want to, say, take the tax wyche patrol - you have to make the archon the warlord, you have significantly less unit flexibility than you had with three patrols...and in return, all you get is that your archon's aura hits kabal and wych cult too and you can take kabal and wych relics.

Aeldari soup also got nerfed hard by PFP becoming a superdoctrine, and the changes from FNP to invuln on PFP suggest that wracks are losing the 5++ they had before.

Good points, but on the plus side Aeldari soup got nerfed hard.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not sure why people think the detachment change is a big buff...you have to take the same 3HQs and 3 troops choices required to unlock the old triple patrol - worse in fact, since you're now mandated to take one of each of the six options, whereas before you could mix and match to 3 total if you didn't want to, say, take the tax wyche patrol - you have to make the archon the warlord, you have significantly less unit flexibility than you had with three patrols...and in return, all you get is that your archon's aura hits kabal and wych cult too and you can take kabal and wych relics.

its buffed because now you can take only 2 patrols if you want to, youre not forced into triple patrol to get the refund.

Oh ok, you're right about that. So if you ignore the realspace raider thing as the trap it is, it's some added flexibility for the base rule, particularly at less than 2k points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The realspace raider wording also suggests that unless you do that particular detachment, you can also no longer take relics of the subfaction your warlord isn't part of, which is quite a large nerf to the flexibility of the army otherwise. I.e. no more taking a Vex Mask Haem unless you have a Prophets warlord, or you take that special detachment.

It's only a "Trap" until you realize it lets yo have the Obsession rule related to EVERY. SINGLE. <KEYWORD>. IN. THE. DETACHMENT.

"Honey? Where is my souper soup?"

"What?"

"WHERE. IS. MY. SOUPER. SOUP???"

I'm pretty downcast tbh. I guess we'll wait and see - but the realspace raiders feels like an insult (we recognise the problem, will we actually fit it? nah).

I don't know how much it will impact things, but PFP feels like a sidegrade at best, and it that's the DE's rule to match... well everything every other 9th edition codex seems to get, I'm left feeling mechanically short changed even if DE could be brokenly overpowered by being far too cheap.

As for Trueborn - if you can't destroy a raider and some kabalites, I think you've got bigger problems. I think its a nice touch, but don't think its going to blow things wide open.

Oh well, roll on tomorrow.

the_scotsman wrote:
It's only a "Trap" until you realize it lets yo have the Obsession rule related to EVERY. SINGLE. <KEYWORD>. IN. THE. DETACHMENT.

"Honey? Where is my souper soup?"

"What?"

"WHERE. IS. MY. SOUPER. SOUP???"

Oh hey, you're right. Pretty sure that's going to get a FAQ though, I can't imagine they're going to let you take a detachment where each unit gets a different obsession. Presumably they will limit it to 1 kabal, 1 coven and 1 cult.

 Ordana wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Do we KNOW that they can't be equipped differently to Kabalites? Perhaps I'm reading far too much into the fluff bit about "being and to demand the very best"

Its not a new datasheet so the odds of getting different weapon options (even just the amount) is practically 0 and has absolutely no precedence?

Them being the best is the 2+ BS. not access to 4 blasters.

[

Which would be something to be more excited about in normal circumstances but we have people here still upset over NuHavocs because they don't carry Special Weapons now.

yukishiro1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It's only a "Trap" until you realize it lets yo have the Obsession rule related to EVERY. SINGLE. <KEYWORD>. IN. THE. DETACHMENT.

"Honey? Where is my souper soup?"

"What?"

"WHERE. IS. MY. SOUPER. SOUP???"

Oh hey, you're right. Pretty sure that's going to get a FAQ though, I can't imagine they're going to let you take a detachment where each unit gets a different obsession. Presumably they will limit it to 1 kabal, 1 coven and 1 cult.

Each unit doesn't get a different obsession, each CABAL / COVEN / CULT unit gets the same.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Oh hey, you're right. Pretty sure that's going to get a FAQ though, I can't imagine they're going to let you take a detachment where each unit gets a different obsession.

Maybe it's unintentional, but the way it's worded right now, I read that as the major benefit of the raiding force detachment as opposed to the triple patrol thingy.

If it is intended, honestly I'm not all that fussed about not having as many rules as marines.

If some marine tank...

...gets -1AP on all its assault and rapid fire weapoons
...gets +1A on the charge
...ignores modifiers to attrition tests
...can split a max sized unit into two half sized units
...gets a unique rule based on the -1AP to assault and rapid fire weapons

It doesn't actually matter that much if the vehicle doesn't actually have the means to use most of those rules. if I can pick just one rule - a really good obsession that works great with the particular weapon mounted on that vehicle, say - then my thing is a better benefit. And I don't have to track fifty bajillion overlapping tiny rules.

Also the more I think about it the more Eager to Flay is fantastic to have army-wide, and is so much better than reroll charges. It unlocks the full capabilities of a bunch of units, especially wych cult units that I used to feel like I had to run red grief with to actually make worthwhile.

dhallnet wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
It's only a "Trap" until you realize it lets yo have the Obsession rule related to EVERY. SINGLE. <KEYWORD>. IN. THE. DETACHMENT.

"Honey? Where is my souper soup?"

"What?"

"WHERE. IS. MY. SOUPER. SOUP???"

Oh hey, you're right. Pretty sure that's going to get a FAQ though, I can't imagine they're going to let you take a detachment where each unit gets a different obsession. Presumably they will limit it to 1 kabal, 1 coven and 1 cult.

Each unit doesn't get a different obsession, each CABAL / COVEN / CULT unit gets the same.

But that's what scotsman was pointing out. Based on that wording, you can take a prophets of flesh haem and a dark technomancers reaper in the realspace raider detachment, and they each get their own obsessions. Along with tailoring every other unit in the detachment to whatever the best kabal, cult or coven is for that particular unit.

yukishiro1 wrote:

But that's what scotsman was pointing out. Based on that wording, you can take a prophets of flesh haem and a dark technomancers reaper in the realspace raider detachment, and they each get their own obsessions. Along with tailoring every other unit in the detachment to whatever the best kabal, cult or coven is for that particular unit.

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Oh hey, you're right. Pretty sure that's going to get a FAQ though, I can't imagine they're going to let you take a detachment where each unit gets a different obsession.

Maybe it's unintentional, but the way it's worded right now, I read that as the major benefit of the raiding force detachment as opposed to the triple patrol thingy.
.

It's worded the same way as how patrols get an obsession. Do you expect KABAL patrols to get multiple KABAL obsessions too ?

Not even thinking about the bloody nightmare for your opponent (and probably you too) to keep track of what unit has what obsession.

Tyel wrote:
As for Trueborn - if you can't destroy a raider and some kabalites, I think you've got bigger problems. I

With fly, M14, and obscuring terrain they get to pick when you get to shoot at them most of the time. Then you always fly it near terrain and when it pops you move into cover with a 3+ save now.

dhallnet wrote:

It's worded the same way as how patrols get an obsession. Do you expect KABAL patrols to get multiple KABAL obsessions too ?

Not even thinking about the bloody nightmare for your opponent (and probably you too) to keep track of what unit has what obsession.

I agree it's not intended, but it's what it says RAW. That's not what it says RAW for the patrol, btw - it has to be a Kabal/Coven/Cult patrol, which is presumably where the choice occurs - i.e. it's presumably defined elsewehre that a Kabal Patrol is a patrol detachment where everyone is from the same Kabal. There's no such limitation on realspace raiders.

I would be shocked if there isn't something in the actual book to prevent this - warhammer community rules are often wrong in the details - but he's right that RAW you can mix and match different kabals/covens/cults within that detachment. Which would definitely be a nightmare of bookkeeping for everyone.

dhallnet wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:

But that's what scotsman was pointing out. Based on that wording, you can take a prophets of flesh haem and a dark technomancers reaper in the realspace raider detachment, and they each get their own obsessions. Along with tailoring every other unit in the detachment to whatever the best kabal, cult or coven is for that particular unit.

the_scotsman wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Oh hey, you're right. Pretty sure that's going to get a FAQ though, I can't imagine they're going to let you take a detachment where each unit gets a different obsession.

Maybe it's unintentional, but the way it's worded right now, I read that as the major benefit of the raiding force detachment as opposed to the triple patrol thingy.
.

It's worded the same way as how patrols get an obsession. Do you expect KABAL patrols to get multiple KABAL obsessions too ?

I mean, maybe the rule for drukhari obsessions are hard-coded to only work if there's only a single <kabal> in a detachment, in which case it is kind of a trap...though you can I guess take a single battalion rather than 3 patrols and you can take the good units for each slot rather than being limited to only 2 Kabal heavy, only 2 Cult fast, only 2 Coven heavy etc. Even if you are limited to one each I can see myself taking a single brigade in raiding party rather than 3 patrols at 2k, since I have a hard time imagining when I'd ever not want 3 fast slots between reavers and scourges and 3 heavy slots between ravagers and talos, and we've got several units in Elites that are just generically good.

Sure, you're not getting too much from it, but being able to have as many flyers as I realistically want, as many heavies as I realistically want, that's a nice benefit.

Even just a solo battalion if I really want 3x ravagers instead of 2x or multiple flyers with Test of Skill instead of 1 is a nice convenience.

the_scotsman wrote:


Even just a solo battalion if I really want 3x ravagers instead of 2x or multiple flyers with Test of Skill instead of 1 is a nice convenience.

But you get zero extra HQ choices that way unless you pay for another patrol, which is pretty limiting. No Drazhar in a Realspace Raiders detachment for example, unless it's a brigade, or unless they moved him to an elite choice or something weird like that.

Armies with much better HQ make it out with 3 just fine, I'm sure Dark Eldar will survive.

the_scotsman wrote:

I mean, maybe the rule for drukhari obsessions are hard-coded to only work if there's only a single <kabal> in a detachment, in which case it is kind of a trap...though you can I guess take a single battalion rather than 3 patrols and you can take the good units for each slot rather than being limited to only 2 Kabal heavy, only 2 Cult fast, only 2 Coven heavy etc. Even if you are limited to one each I can see myself taking a single brigade in raiding party rather than 3 patrols at 2k, since I have a hard time imagining when I'd ever not want 3 fast slots between reavers and scourges and 3 heavy slots between ravagers and talos, and we've got several units in Elites that are just generically good.

Sure, you're not getting too much from it, but being able to have as many flyers as I realistically want, as many heavies as I realistically want, that's a nice benefit.

Even just a solo battalion if I really want 3x ravagers instead of 2x or multiple flyers with Test of Skill instead of 1 is a nice convenience.

Not sure what we are discussing now.
So just to clarify :
You can mix and match in any detachment. Each detachment get only one obsession. If you decided (there are no prerequisite) that your detachment was a KABAL/CULT/COVEN detachment, you get an obsession from the corresponding list and it applies only to the units with the correct keyword (so no reason to "hard code" them).
If you decided your detachment was a realspace raid, you can mix and match and as long as you respect the prerequisites, all KABAL/CULT/COVEN units get the same obsession (not limited to any list).
If your army is made only of patrols, these patrols cost no additional CP.

Logistically a nightmare if each unit in a RS raid detachment can have a different obsession, unless you are going to be required to physically distinguish each variation either with paint colour etc (which would be equally ridiculous).
It will probably be defined as a single Coven, Kabal or Cult, which allows you to mix units in your detachment without losing bonuses, but comes at a cost due to inflexibility of choice in HQ and troop units.
I have zero desire to have coven units, so a RS raid detachment has zero interest for me.

 Galas wrote:
Armies with much better HQ make it out with 3 just fine, I'm sure Dark Eldar will survive.

Those armies also get to pick which HQs they use.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Armies with much better HQ make it out with 3 just fine, I'm sure Dark Eldar will survive.

Those armies also get to pick which HQs they use.

My DG don´t, not really, and I´m managing fine so far. Now nobody here plays DE so maybe I´m missing things but I think having just 3 HQ is fine.

 Galas wrote:
Armies with much better HQ make it out with 3 just fine, I'm sure Dark Eldar will survive.

That's not the point, the point is the detachment locks you into exactly which 3 HQs you have to take, in exactly which proportions. For a detachment that's supposed to open up your options, it's actually hugely limiting unless you want to build an incredibly specific kind of list.

I can't see it being used much, unless the_scotsman is right about being able to mix and match different kabals etc within the same detachment.

But thats if you pick a batallion, you could pick a brigade with that rule. Or play with 2-3 patrols in 2k for a cost of 0 CP.

dhallnet wrote:

So just to clarify :
You can mix and match in any detachment. Each detachment get only one obsession. If you decided (there are no prerequisite) that your patrol was a KABAL/CULT/COVEN detachment, you get an obsession from the corresponding list and it applies only to the units with the correct keyword (so no reason to "hard code" them).
If you decided whatever type of detachment you picked is a realspace raid, you can mix and match and as long as you respect the prerequisites, all KABAL/CULT/COVEN units get the same obsession (not limited to any list).

This is wrong based on how it works now. Right now, you only get an obsession in a <KABAL> detachment if every unit in the detachment has the same <KABAL> - this is specifically called out. Presumably that is not changing, as it matches how every other detachment in the game works.

The issue is that the realspace raiders rule has no such requirement. You don't have to pick a <KABAL> for the detachment, it's just a detachment. So there's nothing for the units to have to be the same as to get the obsession.

Now maybe there is something in the new book that specifically stops this, but what they showed us RAW allows you to mix and match different kabals within the Realspace Raiders detachment and each of them gets their own obsession.

yukishiro1 wrote:

dhallnet wrote:

So just to clarify :
You can mix and match in any detachment. Each detachment get only one obsession. If you decided (there are no prerequisite) that your patrol was a KABAL/CULT/COVEN detachment, you get an obsession from the corresponding list and it applies only to the units with the correct keyword (so no reason to "hard code" them).
If you decided whatever type of detachment you picked is a realspace raid, you can mix and match and as long as you respect the prerequisites, all KABAL/CULT/COVEN units get the same obsession (not limited to any list).

This is wrong based on how it works now. Right now, you only get an obsession in a <KABAL> detachment if every unit in the detachment has the same <KABAL> - this is specifically called out. Presumably that is not changing, as it matches how every other detachment in the game works.

The issue is that the realspace raiders rule has no such requirement. You don't have to pick a <KABAL> for the detachment, it's just a detachment. So there's nothing for the units to have to be the same as to get the obsession.

Now maybe there is something in the new book that specifically stops this, but what they showed us RAW allows you to mix and match different kabals within the Realspace Raiders detachment and each of them gets their own obsession.

I'm talking about what's written in the preview, you have the rules on how to select which detachment is what and how to assign obsessions...

 Galas wrote:
But thats if you pick a batallion, you could pick a brigade with that rule. Or play with 2-3 patrols in 2k for a cost of 0 CP.

Right. Nobody's saying otherwise. That was the background to the whole discussion: assuming the mix-n-match multiple kabals thing isn't intended, the rule doesn't seem to have much application. You'd almost always be better off taking 3 patrols and keeping your options open. A brigade is limiting in other ways. It'd have to be an extremely particular list where the Realspace Raiders makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

I'm talking about what's written in the preview, you have the rules on how to select which detachment is what and how to assign obsessions...

No, we don't. That's what you're missing. It says: "All Kabal units in a <KABAL> Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession," but what we are missing is the bit that defines what a <KABAL> Detachment is. So we are all working off the assumption that a <KABAL> Detachment is the same thing it is in 8th: a detachment where all the units at from the same <KABAL>. But that wouldn't cover Realspace Raiders, since a Realspace Raiders detachment isn't a <KABAL> Detachment.

yukishiro1 wrote:

No, we don't. That's what you're missing. It says: "All Kabal units in a <KABAL> Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession," but what we are missing is the bit that defines what a <KABAL> Detachment is. So we are all working off the assumption that a <KABAL> Detachment is the same thing it is in 8th: a detachment where all the units at from the same <KABAL>. But that wouldn't cover Realspace Raiders, since a Realspace Raiders detachment isn't a <KABAL> Detachment.

They say that you pick what a detachment is and if you choose that it's a real space thingy, it gains an ability, which ability is how you build the detachment and how the obsession you select for it applies to units inside that detachment.
For the others, you don't gain any ability so unless they kept stuff out of the article regarding this (thus editing the rules they are previewing), that's all there is to it outside of being important to know on which units the selected obsession for that detachment will apply.

Edit : Edited after realising there was no keyworded obsession lists.

What's missing is a definition of obsessions.

Because rules as written in the revealed boxes, nothing seeming stops me taking a Haemonculus Covens Detachment and going "yeah, that Poisoned Tongue trait sounds good, I'll have that thanks". Which I'm going to assume isn't intended.

Which leaves me to suspect there will be a paragraph which says "Kabal detachment, pick from this list, Wych Cult detachment, pick from this list etc" - and then RSR will get to pick 3.

But who knows. So much complexity just to stop people easily running Wyches, Grots and Ravagers together.

Tyel wrote:
What's missing is a definition of obsessions.

Because rules as written in the revealed boxes, nothing seeming stops me taking a Haemonculus Covens Detachment and going "yeah, that Poisoned Tongue trait sounds good, I'll have that thanks". Which I'm going to assume isn't intended.

Which leaves me to suspect there will be a paragraph which says "Kabal detachment, pick from this list, Wych Cult detachment, pick from this list etc" - and then RSR will get to pick 3.

But who knows. So much complexity just to stop people easily running Wyches, Grots and Ravagers together.

But in the preview they don't limit you, they tell you from which list you choose and tell you to which units it applies.
I feel like I'm reading something else.
Edit : Whoops, no they don't specify lists.
My bad, I WAS reading something else.

So as far as the preview goes you can pick a detachment and choose what its type is, select an obsession for it, depending if it's a cult/kabal/coven/realspace this obsession applies to different stuff (and have prerequisites in the realspace raid case) and if your army is made of patrols only, they are free.