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I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Only 1 Dark Lance sorry

yukishiro1 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
But thats if you pick a batallion, you could pick a brigade with that rule. Or play with 2-3 patrols in 2k for a cost of 0 CP.

Right. Nobody's saying otherwise. That was the background to the whole discussion: assuming the mix-n-match multiple kabals thing isn't intended, the rule doesn't seem to have much application. You'd almost always be better off taking 3 patrols and keeping your options open. A brigade is limiting in other ways. It'd have to be an extremely particular list where the Realspace Raiders makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dhallnet wrote:

I'm talking about what's written in the preview, you have the rules on how to select which detachment is what and how to assign obsessions...

No, we don't. That's what you're missing. It says: "All Kabal units in a <KABAL> Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession," but what we are missing is the bit that defines what a <KABAL> Detachment is. So we are all working off the assumption that a <KABAL> Detachment is the same thing it is in 8th: a detachment where all the units at from the same <KABAL>. But that wouldn't cover Realspace Raiders, since a Realspace Raiders detachment isn't a <KABAL> Detachment.

For what it's worth, it's actually

All <KABAL> units in a Kabal Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession

And it tells us what a Kabal Detachment is/how it's chosen. By the rules we have available it seems like you could take a Haemonculus, a unit of wracks, and a Talos in a Patrol Detachment, declare it a Kabal Detachment, and get exactly nothing since there are no <KABAL> units.

Trueborn are definitely good. It's just that they can't be armed with enough to really threaten anything significant (unless warriors are seeing a big change in what they can take), so the overall impact on the game is not likely to be all that high. Really reliable hitting doesn't make a huge difference when what you're shooting with is just not that powerful.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Only 1 Dark Lance sorry

1 can be on the boat though.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Except that that's not even close to what you get.

If you're in a Venom then you get 1 Blaster and 1 Blast Pistol.

That's it.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Kabalites are 1 special per 5 and 1 heavy per 10 at the moment, and the Venom only holds 5 so there's no chance of getting 3 special and heavy weapons in the same boat. Raiders hold 10 though. The problem is that you have to take a Master Archon, which will cost you points, before you can upgrade 1 unit to Trueborn, which may also cost points. In and MSU army, 1 unit being slightly better than others isn't worth much.

Rihgu wrote:


For what it's worth, it's actually

All <KABAL> units in a Kabal Detachment gain a Drukhari obsession

And it tells us what a Kabal Detachment is/how it's chosen. By the rules we have available it seems like you could take a Haemonculus, a unit of wracks, and a Talos in a Patrol Detachment, declare it a Kabal Detachment, and get exactly nothing since there are no <KABAL> units.

Where? It says you have to "designate" detachments as a Kabal Detachment etc, but it doesn't say how you actually do that, and what the requirements for it are. That language has to do with it being battle-forged or not; it's saying if you don't have a battle-forged army you can mix and match whatever you want, but if you do, you have to have separate detachments. But it doesn't say how each of those separate detachments become a Kabal Detachment, a Coven Detachment, etc.

But I mean you're right in the sense that if that's defined elsewhere, there could be a definition of the Realspace Raiders detachment elsewhere too that is defined as a detachment where all the Kabal units are from the same <KABAL>, all the Coven from the same <COVEN>, etc.

I guess that's correct? I figured you'd designate the detachment by designating them... similarly to nominating a chapter for <CHAPTER> units from Codex Space Marines.

Besides using designate vs nominate the wording is basically the same with no further instructions on what nominate means.

Yeah, but that's for units, not for detachments. With the effect of the nomination - replacing the <CHAPTER> keyword with the particular chapter - immediately following it.

It would be really weird and stupid if you could designate any detachment as a Kabal Detachment, whether or not it has any Kabal units in it. I mean this is GW, so the fact that it would be incredibly stupid doesn't completely rule it out I suppose...

Rihgu wrote:
I guess that's correct? I figured you'd designate the detachment by designating them... similarly to nominating a chapter for <CHAPTER> units from Codex Space Marines.

Besides using designate vs nominate the wording is basically the same with no further instructions on what nominate means.

True. Basically, I'm just glad I have options. I can have just a normal army list construction, treating one subfaction as a whole faction, I can have 2 for a couple CP, I can have 3 patrols for free, or I can have a mega detachment for free with a couple of extremely minor goodies like my Archon buffing the shooting output of my Talos engines which I'm sure will be CORE, and the ability to take my free relic from any of my 3 subfactions.

The times where I'd want to take a realspace raid are maybe limited to the times I want to go very heavy on one particular faction over another, but they are there. Maybe I want to take 1 unit of kabs (upgraded to trueborns), one unit of wyches, but 4 units of Dark Techno wracks, and I want to stick those Wracks in Poisoned Tongue kabal venoms that I can take because i fill my 3 mandatory heavy slots with 3 ravagers. In a realspace raid detachment, i can do that. if I want the Cult portion of the list to basically just be one unit of wyches chilling in a poisoned tongue venom and then 3 test of skill flyers, I can do that as well.

Or if I just want one unit from black heart to get Vect and I want to do a triple patrol with one patrol being drazar and one bh kabal squad, that is also an option that is open to me.

Something doesnt need to be automatically always better than every other option for it to be nice to have the opportunity to do it. Even assuming souper soup is unlikely to survive a 2-week faq which I do concede, realspace raid provides some interesting and viable options for 2k list construction.

But you'd have to want to go heavy on one faction over the other two, AND want to take stuff from all 3. Otherwise you could just take two patrols of one and one of the other.

Also again RAW you get 2 extra CP for going the patrol route vs the realspace raider route, since all your patrols go to zero CP but you still get the +2CP from your warlord being in one. Though that might be fixed or FAQ'd in the actual rules too.

 Imateria wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm not seeing the problem with trueborn. 2 blasters, one blast pistol, and 2 dark lances in a Venom is still going to be REALLY good.

Hop out, and you have 5 weapons all hitting on a 2+ that are decent against vehicles/heavy infantry.

Kabalites are 1 special per 5 and 1 heavy per 10 at the moment, and the Venom only holds 5 so there's no chance of getting 3 special and heavy weapons in the same boat. Raiders hold 10 though. The problem is that you have to take a Master Archon, which will cost you points, before you can upgrade 1 unit to Trueborn, which may also cost points. In and MSU army, 1 unit being slightly better than others isn't worth much.

So from what I can tell - we don't know what else master archon gives you or if it's just CP or point cost.

It must give you some kind of bonus other than being able to take a unit of trueborn right?

I felt the article was very hit or miss, somethings were much improved, others were a side grade and some really annoys me.

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon. I hope the Succubus and Haemonculus equivelant is more useful. The Realspace Raid also tells us that the Overlord ability, reroll 1's within 6", is changing to Core only, we all saw that coming.

Trueborn is nice but without giving you access to extra special weapons it doesn't feel that worthwhile.

Raiding Force is a slap in the face. I don't care how many Patrols I can take, they are so limited in the available slots that it's just gimping the army, while the Realspace Raid detachment feels like a trap, you're so heavily prescribed for your HQ and Troops choices that you might as well stick with Patrols, it's there to give you the illusion of choice without actually offering any. And I 100% disagree with the_scotsmans interpretation, there is no way in hell you'll be allowed to take a different Obsession on each unit in the detachment, it doesn't even read that way in the article.

Poisoned Tongue has gained a massive boost, it looks like they wont be the lame duck choice of the Kabal Obsesions anymore. Kind of annoyed that it's there strat that gets shown off though, it's completely unchanged from 8th.

Power From Pain is weird. It looks like they are trying to make it our Doctrine type ability, if so I hope they've at least given us an army wide rule to replace it, being mechanically short changed compared to other armies is not a great look. It also stops us from including Ynnari characters in our lists, which is annoying. As for the table itself, changingthe FnP to an invuln is either going to have no effect on the majority of our units or a large swathe of our army is about to get hit with the nerf bat.

Combat drugs is pure win, this is a great change.

Nice to see that the Djinn blade is a flat 3 damage but it's still only +1S and the Nightmare Doll is functionally unchanged, loosing an ability that nobody used anyway.

I think my negativity is how it really wouldn't have been hard to just give the *whole army* the Realspace Raiders rule, and end this idea of the Drukhari being 3+ factions that are able to ally together.

Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

The advantage of the RSRaid is that you have some freedom in how you play your non HQ slots.

You could have 3 Heavy supports from Kabal and 3 Fast Attack from Coven for example, which you can't do with 3 patrols.

Coupled with the warlord boost it makes it for a niche build, but still nice to have.

I guess I may be reading too deeply into a Warhammer Community Bullet Point box - but going on rules as written, nothing theoretically stops you taking a Battalion of Wych Cult, saying its a Cult Detachment, unlocking an obsession for all Wych Cult units - and then sticking some Ravagers or Talos into the otherwise redundant Heavy Support slots. They'd miss out on an obsession, but it might be worth saving points & CP on another HQ+Detachment.

Which isn't the case right now - or at least not as I understand it. You'd lose obsessions on the lot.

Tyel wrote:
I guess I may be reading too deeply into a Warhammer Community Bullet Point box - but going on rules as written, nothing theoretically stops you taking a Battalion of Wych Cult, saying its a Cult Detachment, unlocking an obsession for all Wych Cult units - and then sticking some Ravagers or Talos into the otherwise redundant Heavy Support slots. They'd miss out on an obsession, but it might be worth saving points & CP on another HQ+Detachment.

Which isn't the case right now - or at least not as I understand it. You'd lose obsessions on the lot.

Yep, could be. Also as of right now Ravagers really don't benefit...at all from any kabal trait.

Assuming most of the kabal traits are unchanged, and night shields are unchanged. Maybe BH gets an update though.

Spoletta wrote:
The advantage of the RSRaid is that you have some freedom in how you play your non HQ slots.

You could have 3 Heavy supports from Kabal and 3 Fast Attack from Coven for example, which you can't do with 3 patrols.

Coupled with the warlord boost it makes it for a niche build, but still nice to have.

There is no fast attack for anything but wyches (lol Drukhari), but yes, the general principle is that you can take 3x something AND take units from all three subfactions, which you can't do with triple patrol.

And even if that's the case, the disadvantage being that you don't get any flexibility with your HQ slots at all and can't take Drazhar (unless you run a brigade I guess, lol), you have to make the Archon the warlord, and you lose 2CP (at least based on what they showed us).

Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

The Drazhar thing is the most absurd one.

 InVerno wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Look... Dark Eldars appear to receive the same treatment and care than necrons, death guard and previous codex... who would have tought...

not even close, good rules but remember we only got lelith as """new"""" model and most of the units are still failcast

35 entries listed on GW.com at the time of writing.

- 6 books/cards/ebooks

That leaves us with 29 items, including a Start Collecting which will be replaced by the Combat Patrol, and one dual-kit, though doesn't include either version of Lelith, as neither are currently available. She will increase the plastic count by 1, though.

So, we have 27 kits available at present, increasing to 28 when Lelith is released. I'm relying on the GW description to be accurate here, before anyone says I get something wrong...

Plastic - 17/18* (Drazhar, Incubi, Ravager, Razorwing, Archon, Raider, Voidraven, Talos/Cronos, Wracks, Reavers, Succubus, Haemonculus, Hellions, Scourges, Wyches, Kabalites, Webway Gate (I thought this was a 'Quin thing...), Lelith*)
Finecast - 10 (Sslyth, Mandrakes, Razorwing Flock (1 base for £12, seriously?), Ur-Ghul, Lhamaean, Khymerae, Urien Rakarth, Grotesque, Clawed Fiend, Beastmaster)

So, we find that nowhere near "most" of the units are still Finecast/resin - I count Mandrakes, Grotesques, Court of the Archon (though they may be individual characters now - wonder if they'll get that group-as-one-choice rule that DG got?), and Beastmaster & Packs, along with one special character.

If you're going to whine or rant, please check your facts first.

 Dysartes wrote:
Plastic - 17/18* (Drazhar, Incubi, Ravager, Razorwing, Archon, Raider, Voidraven, Talos/Cronos, Wracks, Reavers, Succubus, Haemonculus, Hellions, Scourges, Wyches, Kabalites, Webway Gate (I thought this was a 'Quin thing...), Lelith*)
Finecast - 10 (Sslyth, Mandrakes, Razorwing Flock (1 base for £12, seriously?), Ur-Ghul, Lhamaean, Khymerae, Urien Rakarth, Grotesque, Clawed Fiend, Beastmaster)

And you CAN get plastic Ur-Ghuls from the Blackstone Fortress set, but they're harder to come by.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

I think (sorry angry DG players) that was due to underestimating how -1 damage works.
Which made little sense to me, because of many games where Wave Serpents were incredibly annoying - but there you go.

I think the issue is that the DG codex works at the 3 MTG levels. Admittedly it might not stay there - arguably its in the process of being solved and the weight of time will probably degrade it - but right now at least I think you have very different "viable" (as against optimal) builds that have interesting mechanical interactions. I.E. its a good Johnny Codex.

Whereas I can fully imagine DE will be better than they are now (and I don't think they are Tau/GSC tier by any stretch). But if its just because everything has been made more efficient for its points (see Kabalites for example), thats not as interesting to me as having a range of mechanics and getting them to click.

 Imateria wrote:

Master Archon looks fun but I suspect it's going to be 30pts so I wont bother for a 1 use only ability that to make the most use of you'll probably want a relic and warlord trait that you would already have access to rather than the those you unlock from Master Archon.

One thing that gives me a sliver of hope is that the article says "By spending a few extra points you can upgrade yours to a Master Archon, unlocking new abilities..."

It implies that Master Archons might be able to access alternative abilities, which could be nice.

That said, it seems weird to lock artefact and warlord traits to these.

And, honestly, the Soulhelm just looks like something Archons should have as standard.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

Well as the dust settles and more codices get released you'll definitely see Death Guard less.

Not necessarily. If other armies get their signature weapons converted to knock off heavy bolters, that's a pure boon for DG armies.

They'll always have a space in the meta as a hard counter to reliance on multi-damage weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Regarding heavy weapons only being 1 in 10 that could easily change into being 1 in 5. It would also keep the pattern set by many other armies with similar multi-weapon units.

I see some pessimism and cries of nerf, but honestly people were saying the same about Death Guard before they got released. People were complaining that DR was now the nerf that would kill the army and all sort of "the sky is falling" things. The thing is we are only seeing a partial picture just like we did with Death Guard and we won't get anything concrete until Saturday when the review embargos are lifted.

Well as the dust settles and more codices get released you'll definitely see Death Guard less.

Only thing I can say is that the book made playing Death Guard actually fun. The 8th edition codex was a chore that got a sliver of a lifeline in War of the Spider.

Personally I think Death Guard will be played less because the next codices might actually get the same round of "fun". I mean, I can definitely see myself playing Death Guard less if Drukhari is a super fun codex. That's what has kinda surprised me in the past 3 codices is that they actually feel fun to play and I do hope GW manages to pull a hat trick and do the same for all the upcoming codices.

My codex doesn't need to be top tier, but if it is fun to play I am all for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Not necessarily. If other armies get their signature weapons converted to knock off heavy bolters, that's a pure boon for DG armies.

They'll always have a space in the meta as a hard counter to reliance on multi-damage weapons.

In a meta that is heavy on Space Marines Death Guard are there to punish those who obsessively tailor their list towards anti-Space Marine.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, based on what's written here...Drukhari no longer have any army-wide rule. PFP is a super-doctrine; there is no doctrine any more.

How is PFP not the Doctrine equivalent rule? Reads the same as Contagions/Protocols/Doctrines to me.