Here come the pointy elves

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**Not Online!!!**

AngryAngel80 wrote:
On this, I hope for sanity to maintain, if it doesn't I dread each book after it to see what wargear butchery they will perform in other books.

AngryAngel80, candidate for best newly coined GWism 2021.

joke aside, the PM entry already pissed me off, i don't even want to imagine chosen, allbeit they are just a candidate for another trueborn rule....
So much fun, like WE only having one terminator berzerker squad....

**harlokin**

I don't recall Scourges ever being good,and of late they have been a suicide unit that can't actually kill anything reliably.

No argument on the scupts though, absolutely lovely, and always great conversion fodder.

**AngryAngel80**

InVerno wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
As time goes on people are gonna be absolutely annoyed with the absurd restrictions on their troops (Cultists and Pox can't exceed Marines, Plague Marines have absurd wargear restrictions), all keeping in mind this is the what, third codex this edition? I'm not counting supplements.

You can easily fit 120 poxwalkers and cultists into the army by using termies. My current list has 80 poxwalkers along with Typhus and a cadre of Terminators. So these "restrictions" will be at best edge cases.

Only people who will complain about the wargear restrictions are the people who already invested into making those units and I wouldn't be surprised if they are a minority. Hell, I didn't even bother creating those squads in 8th. Plus a lot of people will adapt. I spent a lot of time making Trueborns in the old day with Splinter Cannons and Blasters, but then that all changed and I adjusted. My guess is most people will.

So my take is that a small minority will get absolutely annoyed by these. I mean, the key to failure is trying to please everybody as it is impossible to please everybody. If you could take poxwalkers and cultists willy nilly then their opponents would complain and so goes the cycle of complaint.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brutus_Apex wrote:
"One in every 5 Scourge may take a Splinter Cannon. One in every 5 Scourge may take a Dark Lance. One in every..."

Theres a strong chance this could happen.

Theres also a very strong chance I will never purchase this unit.

We'll see how it turns out. Although I am afraid Scourges are going to be included in every value pack from now on.

scourges from what i remember have always been one of the best unit in the book, lets hope it remains so, i really love the models and the design

I don't think I have ever heard anyone tell me scourges are one of the best units in the DE book, so hearing this for me is a first.

**Galas**

Scourges are one of those "making an army just for this unit" miniatures at least for me.

Sadly they are such a maverick for dark eldars.

**AngryAngel80**

Not Online!!! wrote:
AngryAngel80 wrote:
On this, I hope for sanity to maintain, if it doesn't I dread each book after it to see what wargear butchery they will perform in other books.

AngryAngel80, candidate for best newly coined GWism 2021.

joke aside, the PM entry already pissed me off, i don't even want to imagine chosen, allbeit they are just a candidate for another trueborn rule....
So much fun, like WE only having one terminator berzerker squad....

Thank you, thank you, it's an honor just be nominated. I'd like to thank my mind, and fingers without them my post couldn't be given in the same fashion as it was. As well I'd like to thank Dakka Dakka for always believing in me and guiding me to follow my dreams of imagining colorful terms to describe GW design choices.It really is and always will be a team effort, so all my love out there to internet land.

**vipoid**

Waaaghbert wrote:

I feel thats a general problem and also reflected in the master archon trait. Everything has to be about "fighting power". A Master Archon is a Drukhari Lord that survived all the intrigues and assassination attempts for a surprisingly long time and in return he gets to fight twice a game and his weapons become more deadly? Why not give him something that reflects this smart cunning-ness like labyrinthian cunning? You dont survive in Comorragh by fighting fair, its all about plans, ploys, etc.

I had the exact same thought. Surely a Master Archon should have an ability that reflects his strategic genius - not just "herp, derp, I hit you in the burp".

Hell, we've got *at least* one other model who already has a fight twice ability. Two if Drazhar keeps his.

Not to mention the face that DE are already well overstocked with melee HQs. What we needed were HQs who could actually bring some utility (like psykers in other armies) or strategic prowess to the field.

But no, Archons are just Warbosses now. And if Shadowfields stay the same they'll even be using technology with Ork-levels of reliability.

Galas wrote:
Scourges are one of those "making an army just for this unit" miniatures at least for me.

Sadly they are such a maverick for dark eldars.

As with Mandrakes, Scourges are gorgeous models, yet ones which seem completely wasted on a unit that only exists to perform suicide-runs.

As with many units in DE, it's a theme I'd really love to see expanded.

Alas, that might cause a brief reduction in Primaris Lieutenant production, and lord knows nothing can be allowed to interfere with that.

**Crispy78**

I always found it jarring that Scourges are meant to be some of the richest, most elite members of dark eldar society and are reduced to kamikaze jump troops in the tabletop game.

**Eldarsif**

Yep, Scourges have never been a unit that has delivered much except to suicide bomb into a unit. I tried running them with Dark Lances in 8th but they were always outperformed by a Ravager that could actually survive a turn compared to the Scourges.

To be fair, if Scourges could take Dissies they might get my attention, but alas that is not in their kit.

They basically need a survival mechanism to make them worth taking.

Beautiful models though. Beautiful enough that if I end up getting more in a box set I can't really be miffed as I can do conversions and whatnot.

**the_scotsman**

Argive wrote:
I have to say I'm fairly surprised.. there's actual rules so tahts good.

Looking forward to all the stratagems.

I think they made the detachments needlessly complicated yet again to the point an FAQ will be needed.

Looking forward to seeing what stratagems / traits will be available if any.

You guys think there will be faction traits ?

the strats are the part I'm least hyped for. Mostly, the strats in the marine and necron dex (havent really examined any of the others in detail tbh) have been dialed-back from where strats were in the height of 8th. I'm not expecting anything particularly earth shattering stratwise.

I'll be extremely pleasantly surprised if the master archon/succubus/haemonculus is a whole table of abilities you get to pick one from when you upgrade, that would be amazing and extremely welcome to me. Beyond the convenience of just "being able to bring an HQ along with your mounted army", dark eldar HQs desperately need SOMETHING to inject a little variety. The Harlequins' pivotal roles breathed so much life into them (notwithstanding that the ability to take 2 for 1CP is just busted, and should not have been a thing) and took extremely dull characters like Death Jesters and Shadowseers and made them much, much cooler.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crispy78 wrote:
I always found it jarring that Scourges are meant to be some of the richest, most elite members of dark eldar society and are reduced to kamikaze jump troops in the tabletop game.

Do other people not drop their scourges onto terrain and use the strat that makes them 2+ armor? Why not?

**Elfric**

I always dump scourges in cover and use the strat. It's like people want 2+++ re rolling 1's, and their units can only be wounded on 6's.

**H.B.M.C.**

Scourges are very nice. I have 3 boxes and I don't even play Dark Eldar (not really anyway - the DE stuff I own I got for adversaries in the 40k RPGs - I couldn't out a legal 40K force together... I don't think).

**the_scotsman**

Plus, "THE BEST OF THE BEST" being suicide troopers that die instantaneously 100% of the time is a time-honored 40k tradition. How many tactical terminator squads have you seen survive after their first turn? Even back in fifth, before GW was forced to change their super unique copyrightable "Star Wars TM Jedi TM Troopers" into the new "Millitario Tesdosteronis" they would still show up on the board and die instantly.

in one of my first 40k matches I have a distinct memory of my friend dropping his guys down, meltagunning an enemy vehicle, and then trying to finish the vehicle off with a leman russ shot which scattered onto them and wiped them out, giving them a lifespan of 'less than one shooting phase.'

**Imateria**

Scourge have been amazing for me. They were my most reliable anti tank unit in 7th with Heat Lances or Haywire, dropping in and popping tanks with ease, and have been great anti infantry clearers with Shredders since the 8th ed codex came out.

If they are limited to one of each gun the unit will be functionally killed.

**Daedalus81**

vipoid wrote:

I had the exact same thought. Surely a Master Archon should have an ability that reflects his strategic genius - not just "herp, derp, I hit you in the burp".

There are other places this can be represented.

**PenitentJake**

Daedalus81 wrote:

There are other places this can be represented.

Also, likely a strat that allows the WL to take 2 WL traits, in which case, he could have this one for fighting and pick a strategy-based strat in addition to what he gets for Master Archon.

**vipoid**

the_scotsman wrote:
Plus, "THE BEST OF THE BEST" being suicide troopers that die instantaneously 100% of the time is a time-honored 40k tradition. How many tactical terminator squads have you seen survive after their first turn? Even back in fifth, before GW was forced to change their super unique copyrightable "Star Wars TM Jedi TM Troopers" into the new "Millitario Tesdosteronis" they would still show up on the board and die instantly.

Funnily enough, I was thinking of those when I thought of Scourges.

Though, I think one of the differences is that Scourges at least seem like they're supposed to be flying all around the board. Yet I think I could probably count on one hand the number of times they've actually managed to make use of M14".

the_scotsman wrote:

in one of my first 40k matches I have a distinct memory of my friend dropping his guys down, meltagunning an enemy vehicle, and then trying to finish the vehicle off with a leman russ shot which scattered onto them and wiped them out, giving them a lifespan of 'less than one shooting phase.'

Ah, I love moments like that.

Though if we're going by in-game experiences, I've seen Draigo and a squad of terminators have a lifespan of 'less than 1 movement phase', as they misjudged their deep strike and ended up in a wall. Good times.

Daedalus81 wrote:
There are other places this can be represented.

Just as there are other places fighting can be represented.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Imateria wrote:
Scourge have been amazing for me. They were my most reliable anti tank unit in 7th with Heat Lances or Haywire, dropping in and popping tanks with ease, and have been great anti infantry clearers with Shredders since the 8th ed codex came out.

If they are limited to one of each gun the unit will be functionally killed.

Forge the narrative!

**Wyldhunt**

Waaaghbert wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
vipoid wrote:
I fear what little optimism I gained from today's article is already falling back into pessimism.

Same. Kinda. Like, it looks like we're getting a bit of a power boost, so that's nice (although I'm not fond of the arms race in general.) But it seems like GW may not have understood some of the perceived issues with the faction very well. We're still jumping through hoops to use our full codex. Power From Pain is still the weird "charging my pain batteries" thing that has never felt satisfying compared to the 5th edition pain token version.

I get the impression the codex will be fine, and I'm sure I'll enjoy playing with it. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring. Maybe all the inspiring rules will be in the Crusade section. Kind of feels like they just removed a handful of drawbacks (like having to mix up your drug selection), made a bunch of weapons D2, and called it a day.

Also, and this is extremely nitpicky and specific to me, I'm worried someone missed the point of my beloved Poisoned Tongue kabal again. Just because "poison" is in the name doesn't mean that splinter weapons was the draw to the faction. The appeal for me was always Malys, her cunning, and her connections to harlequins. This chapter tactic seems better than the last one (which was just a worse version of Flayed Skull), but thinking that their name derives from literal poison rather than the power of intellect feels like they're missing the point. Here's hoping they don't give the "smart guy" warlord trait to Black Heart again. Here's doubly-hoping they don't give us the unwanted Leadership aura from the index archon as our warlord trait again. PT should be the Alpha Legion of drukhari. Instead, we're just the most poisony poison guys of the poison gun faction. Maybe. I'm overreacting before seeing most of the rules.

I feel thats a general problem and also reflected in the master archon trait. Everything has to be about "fighting power". A Master Archon is a Drukhari Lord that survived all the intrigues and assassination attempts for a surprisingly long time and in return he gets to fight twice a game and his weapons become more deadly? Why not give him something that reflects this smart cunning-ness like labyrinthian cunning? You dont survive in Comorragh by fighting fair, its all about plans, ploys, etc.

Exactly. We're not orks. Kabals and covens don't have to be lead by the guy who can swing his sword the fastest. (Although that does make a certain amount of sense for cults.) Instead of making everything damage 2 as a reaction to marines, give us those juicy, esoteric that reflect our unique fluff. Give archons orders or magnificent bastard rules that make them feel clever enough to be in charge. Give splinter weapons special ammo type rules that let them be useful in a wide variety of situations.

I don't know. I'm probably complaining too much. The 'dex looks fine so far. I was just hoping for something a bit more inspiring instead of a raw stat boost.

Remember in 5th edition when you could deploy webway portals, drag characters away from their units with hellions, insta-gib things gruesome weapons, and give yourself a 4+ FNP as a reward for slaughtering an enemy? Good times. Gooood times.

**flamingkillamajig**

harlokin wrote:
I don't recall Scourges ever being good,and of late they have been a suicide unit that can't actually kill anything reliably.

No argument on the scupts though, absolutely lovely, and always great conversion fodder.

I think they were alright pre-8th when vehicles were squishier or pre-codex 8th when infantry killing power wasn't quite yet what it is now. Honestly suicide anti-tank light infantry units really went downhill. Doesn't help they gave em heat lances but magically made it so you can't DS to within half range and since you can't give them obsidian rose due to mercenaries you can't get that half range melta lance shot. God that was a total design failure. I am wondering if heat lance reavers might be ok in the future but i'm not holding my breath too hard. I suppose we'll find out when we have the codex in our hands.

**Void__Dragon**

Crispy78 wrote:
I always found it jarring that Scourges are meant to be some of the richest, most elite members of dark eldar society and are reduced to kamikaze jump troops in the tabletop game.

In Dark Eldar society being rich and powerful means you can afford to just rez yourself when you die, enabling them to do all of the excessive and death-defying gak scourges get into.

**flamingkillamajig**

Yeah but didn't it say scourge tend to prefer long distance weapons for some reason? I think it had to do with survivability. I can't remember.

**AngryAngel80**

That is the scourge issue, the wings. They have them seemingly for a reason but that reason is at odds for them to use some of their weapons. This could be easily fixed in part by saying " They can move and shoot heavies normally " or the like. Then have some sort of bonus for the wings, say it improves their cover saves because they float or flit to avoid the incoming fire better, maybe they just flat ignore negatives to shoot at units because of " Hawk like vision ".

Really they could come up with better stuff for them they just never do, they live in what I call the OgrynZone. Where a unit just languishes book after book being a pretty meh unit over all and seemingly never gets a look at time after time. I wonder if it would really put them out to look at a codex and try and make every unit viable or if they just love trap units.

**the_scotsman**

Daedalus81 wrote:
vipoid wrote:

I had the exact same thought. Surely a Master Archon should have an ability that reflects his strategic genius - not just "herp, derp, I hit you in the burp".

There are other places this can be represented.

I feel like master archon is in response to the complaints that the HQs from the "selfish duellists" faction can't ever seem to do duels. GW's just like "here you go, he fights twice now, use him to kill that space marine captain."

**Xenomancers**

harlokin wrote:
I don't recall Scourges ever being good,and of late they have been a suicide unit that can't actually kill anything reliably.

No argument on the scupts though, absolutely lovely, and always great conversion fodder.

They have had their moments. As a cheap haywire unit they were a staple in 8th edd competitive DE. Not getting kabal traits REALLY hurts them. ESP now with the poisoned tongue getting such a good poison buff.

**Eldarsif**

They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Edit: For the record I am referring to Scourges.

**KurtAngle2**

Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

**Gene St. Ealer**

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

Speculation, or is this confirmed?!

**Eldarsif**

Gene St. Ealer wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

Speculation, or is this confirmed?!

Salty speculation. Sky is falling. etc etc.

I haven't seen anything that confirms this.

**Imateria**

Eldarsif wrote:
Gene St. Ealer wrote:
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
They are also a slightly more of a suicide squad with the Dark Lance buff.

That is if we will be allowed to field 4 Dark Lances in an MSU squad.

Nope, same Kabalite datasheets

Speculation, or is this confirmed?!

Salty speculation. Sky is falling. etc etc.

I haven't seen anything that confirms this.

I think Kurt is confusing Trueborn and Scourge.

**VladimirHerzog**

I think Kurt got confused and thought we were talking about Trueborns, which do keep the same datasheet as kabalites as far as we know.