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I'm just going to directly paint up the DV marines as crimson fists. I don't care about the iconography, it's just a fancy squad marking to me. I was annoyed that they put a special snowflake faction in the starter though. Weird choice.

And I agree, Irbis did not present a very compelling argument.

 Flipsiders wrote:
Total shift in the conversation, but does anyone know what the solitary Admech release in 2003 was? It's been boggling my mind for the past hour.

Probably a techpriest enginseer, or servitors. Both the enginseers and servitors are in the AdMech lineup and primary faction AdMech, but were at the time available to IG [and Space Marines].

 Flipsiders wrote:
Total shift in the conversation, but does anyone know what the solitary Admech release in 2003 was? It's been boggling my mind for the past hour.

Given that's before AdMech were re-introduced as a playable faction, I'm going to guess a Tech-Priest Enginseer sculpt, though that really should be counted as IG if it is the case.

Looking at the Codex release list page on Wikipedia, 2003 had both Daemonhunters and Imperial Guard v2 Codex releases for 3rd edition, so it'd most likely be something that came out alongside those. Probably the Enginseer, though thinking about it, there may have been some Servitors with the DH release.

 grouchoben wrote:
The graphic I'd >really< like to see? 40k releases vs AoS. That game is about 1/3 as popular as 40k, gets far less interest online and is very quiet competitively, yet it just gets absolutely plastered in releases.

AoS started from scratch with a big "fail" in the first Edition and needed to get players back
of course it needs investement to get it going because there is nothing to fall back

yet AoS is the better game, as it is more stable, more coherent rules, mini-factions that have consitant design, no real poster boys (while Stormcast have more options than others, some are just leftovers from the first Edi but got not much outside the initial release) and a working App

also, less interest online is not a bad thing, as controversial or bad products get much more interest online than good products
you won't fill pages on dakka with "it is a good game" and "I agree" replies, while the usual "40k has bad rules", "Marines get too much stuff and are still bad" etc. will fill several topics all about how bad the rules/price/design of 40k is and some people defending it

good games with less list building aspects generate not very much interest online in general, so if there is not much going on on the web either means no one is playing it, or there is no need to complain about it online


overall AoS and 40k are examples for Cash Cow and Wild Dog
40k has a big costumer base and just needs enough investment and low afford releases to keep things running
it is going to be milked until it is dead (market growth would still be possible but not without further investment and the company may decide that the investment is not worth the potential growth)

AoS has a low market share but also the high potential and need to investment to increase market share and the potential to become a Star or Cash Cow (more likley a Star as the competition on the Fantasy market is bigger than on the SciFi/Space Fantasy market for 40k)

 Flipsiders wrote:
Total shift in the conversation, but does anyone know what the solitary Admech release in 2003 was? It's been boggling my mind for the past hour.

Wasn't that the Skullz promotion set of tech-priests?

The Skullz program rewarded on-line/direct orders with xpts/$ spent. Spend between x - Y amount, earn x Skullz pts. Redeem Skullz for exclusive product (some of wich required insane amounts of Skullz).

 grouchoben wrote:
Yeah that sounds about right. Just a note of interest here - the graphic here makes Chaos look like they've had a big 5 years, comparable to SM. And they have, but 50% of those releases were Chaos Daemon releases, an AoS faction. I get the feeling that if daemons weren't in AoS they would be languishing in model releases.

I suspect chaos is actually under-representated in the chart, it doesn't appear to be including all of the boxed game releases such as the various new cultists, the new terminator lord/sorcerer, etc. And of course it doesn't include the decade of forgeworld heresy releases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
Total shift in the conversation, but does anyone know what the solitary Admech release in 2003 was? It's been boggling my mind for the past hour.

Looking at the Codex release list page on Wikipedia, 2003 had both Daemonhunters and Imperial Guard v2 Codex releases for 3rd edition, so it'd most likely be something that came out alongside those. Probably the Enginseer, though thinking about it, there may have been some Servitors with the DH release.

It was the old metal enginseer. You are right about the servitors though.

 kodos wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
The graphic I'd >really< like to see? 40k releases vs AoS. That game is about 1/3 as popular as 40k, gets far less interest online and is very quiet competitively, yet it just gets absolutely plastered in releases.

AoS started from scratch with a big "fail" in the first Edition and needed to get players back
of course it needs investement to get it going because there is nothing to fall back

yet AoS is the better game, as it is more stable, more coherent rules, mini-factions that have consitant design, no real poster boys (while Stormcast have more options than others, some are just leftovers from the first Edi but got not much outside the initial release) and a working App

also, less interest online is not a bad thing, as controversial or bad products get much more interest online than good products
you won't fill pages on dakka with "it is a good game" and "I agree" replies, while the usual "40k has bad rules", "Marines get too much stuff and are still bad" etc. will fill several topics all about how bad the rules/price/design of 40k is and some people defending it

good games with less list building aspects generate not very much interest online in general, so if there is not much going on on the web either means no one is playing it, or there is no need to complain about it online


overall AoS and 40k are examples for Cash Cow and Wild Dog
40k has a big costumer base and just needs enough investment and low afford releases to keep things running
it is going to be milked until it is dead (market growth would still be possible but not without further investment and the company may decide that the investment is not worth the potential growth)

AoS has a low market share but also the high potential and need to investment to increase market share and the potential to become a Star or Cash Cow (more likley a Star as the competition on the Fantasy market is bigger than on the SciFi/Space Fantasy market for 40k)

AoS is also just a fantastic Green Fields project. With the lore still being built and everything being some what open you can see much more interesting developments than in 40k. 40k is a bit shackled by the weight of its lore(that is very Space Marine centric) so it is harder for GW to do sweeping changes there without enraging the fanbase. They already ripped off that piece of plastic when they gutted WHFB.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I'm not super surprised and aside from a one off guard character I don't expect even 1 imperial guard unit to be released this year. In a way it's good, means I have little to look forward to.

Unless AoS has a very dominant year again with more than one huge release (undead are coming in some form, and lumineth are now fully announced so I'm ignoring them) then I think there is room for either guard or eldar to get quite a few new kits. Whether that happens or not is a totally different kettle of fish though.

GW might go completely off what you would assume should be the expected chart and release the whole GK range in primaris including terminators which will then be followed up with standard primaris terminators...

EDIT: Talking AoS, a similar infographic would be super interesting for AoS to see if there is any release bias for that range also.

If I had to guess I'd say there will be some extra big exciting marine news soon. At which point the whole year of marine releases will continue to year 3. Then I'll shake my head and be like " It's happening again !!!! "

Eldarsif wrote:I mean, at this point we could just say that all of 40k Chaos Space Marines are also Space Marine releases in this comparison because you can make some "half-body" conversions with them.

Well, way back in the day, my Chaos Warband was from a part of a Chapter that had "recently" turned to Chaos, and were still recruiting and following similar training methods. Everyone that was Tactical on up was represented by Chaos Marines, however the "Raptors" and "Havocs" would still be considered trainees and hadn't earned their baroque armor. This was mostly so I could use the plastic Assault and Devastator Marines instead of buying the more expensive metal models. I did add some Chaos bits here and there, but it was obvious what the base models were.

So in my case, my Chaos Marines were partially Space Marine releases!

kodos wrote:AoS started from scratch with a big "fail" in the first Edition and needed to get players back
of course it needs investment to get it going because there is nothing to fall back

It didn't really help that there was little formal game organization at launch and it was basically riding the End Times of Fantasy Battles (which really wasn't doing so good). The GHB is what turned it around here, models had little to nothing to do with its success at this point.

That being said, I think that the models right now are one of the best reasons to get in to AoS as opposed to 40K (that and the almost complete centricity of the Astartes in 40K).

kodos wrote:yet AoS is the better game, as it is more stable, more coherent rules, mini-factions that have consitant design, no real poster boys (while Stormcast have more options than others, some are just leftovers from the first Edi but got not much outside the initial release) and a working App

There are good points to both on which is a better game, that's usually more to taste for most people.

However, currently they have been more consistent about spreading out the love, but one of my biggest problems with AoS for its first years, in terms of releases, was that it was all Stormcast (to be fair it was a brand new army), Fire Berzerker Dwarfs, and Khornate Marauders. Once they got that out of their system, we got... more Dwarfs, but steam-punk style. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Dwarfish character, but there was little spreading out in terms of models for quite some time in AoS. Today they've turned it around and started including old models lines heavily and expanding on those as well.

Eldarsif wrote:AoS is also just a fantastic Green Fields project. With the lore still being built and everything being some what open you can see much more interesting developments than in 40k. 40k is a bit shackled by the weight of its lore(that is very Space Marine centric) so it is harder for GW to do sweeping changes there without enraging the fanbase. They already ripped off that piece of plastic when they gutted WHFB.

Very true. In a way it reminds me of the last season of Enterprise when they knew they weren't going to have a final season. Some of the best episodes and sub-series came out that season of probably any Star Trek line, including why the Klingons in TOS didn't have their ridges. The model designers and rule writers have a little more freedom because they aren't the cash cow, so we get to see some amazing stuff. And AoS has also been a test bed for things they want to try in 40K as well, though some of the lessons haven't properly carried over, imo.

 grouchoben wrote:
The graphic I'd >really< like to see? 40k releases vs AoS. That game is about 1/3 as popular as 40k, gets far less interest online and is very quiet competitively, yet it just gets absolutely plastered in releases.

Yeah and not just AOS the mini games releases have been absolutely breakneck.
Ive been wondering about this..

We all heard that SM get new stuff because outsell everything else which is fine... But in the same vein I dont see the logic in some random side game releases over major 40k factions lingering in the dust. Someone going to tell me some obscure rando warcry/necromunda/bloodbowl band is more popular and will outsell any given 40k faction?

Marines likely subsidize these expansions. Each one is a gamble, but they don't have to sell as well as marines to be modestly profitable. The more GW can engage more hobbyists at various levels the more future customers they'll acquire for other products.

 Charistoph wrote:

kodos wrote:AoS started from scratch with a big "fail" in the first Edition and needed to get players back
of course it needs investment to get it going because there is nothing to fall back

It didn't really help that there was little formal game organization at launch and it was basically riding the End Times of Fantasy Battles (which really wasn't doing so good). The GHB is what turned it around here, models had little to nothing to do with its success at this point.

that has nothing to do with game organization or riding the End Times (and End Times was a big success)

blowing up the World and changing from a R&F game to Mass Skirmish ended the support fromt he existing player base
at the same time, the new game was aiming at a different kind of player and/or tried to introduce different ways of playing with no point costs and pure scenario based games (which is pretty common in historical wargames and works very well there but as the main point for GW are easy pick up games which is nearly impossible without point costs this removed the main point to even look at it)

it were tha fan made rules that added point costs and changed the core rules into what was later seen in the GHB to get people playing at all
having the GHB and a new Edition coming with a 180° turn on what the game wanted to be was necessary to rescue it

 Charistoph wrote:

However, currently they have been more consistent about spreading out the love, but one of my biggest problems with AoS for its first years, in terms of releases, was that it was all Stormcast (to be fair it was a brand new army), Fire Berzerker Dwarfs, and Khornate Marauders. Once they got that out of their system, we got... more Dwarfs, but steam-punk style. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Dwarfish character, but there was little spreading out in terms of models for quite some time in AoS. Today they've turned it around and started including old models lines heavily and expanding on those as well.

because at the beginning the thought that Fantasy Marines are going to sell as well as SciFi Marines without understanding why Marines in 40k sold well

and it takes years to change things on the model side and it is nearly impossible to adjust it mid-production
what we see now with AoS is their what they changed 3 years ago

 kodos wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

kodos wrote:AoS started from scratch with a big "fail" in the first Edition and needed to get players back
of course it needs investment to get it going because there is nothing to fall back

It didn't really help that there was little formal game organization at launch and it was basically riding the End Times of Fantasy Battles (which really wasn't doing so good). The GHB is what turned it around here, models had little to nothing to do with its success at this point.

that has nothing to do with game organization or riding the End Times (and End Times was a big success)

The fail of AoS' start here in the States was primarily due to lack of formal game organization. There was constant arguments and discussions about how to organize a game from models to Wounds, to other esoteric things. Everyone I know was playing 9th Age, Kings of War, or stuck to 8th Edition, if they hadn't abandoned the game all together.

While the concept of End Times was great, a lot of people saw the writing on the wall that WHFB was going to be discontinued, and so started getting out while people buying the models. Some great things came with End Times, no argument, but if one believes it won't be there in a year... From there, a lot of people were dissatisfied with how the storylines went, and felt some of the rules mocked everything that happened in End Times.

It wasn't until the GHB came out and the more silly rules (ex: you cannot kneel while playing Settra as Settra does not kneel) were massaged away, that I saw people actually doing things with AoS.

 kodos wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

However, currently they have been more consistent about spreading out the love, but one of my biggest problems with AoS for its first years, in terms of releases, was that it was all Stormcast (to be fair it was a brand new army), Fire Berzerker Dwarfs, and Khornate Marauders. Once they got that out of their system, we got... more Dwarfs, but steam-punk style. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the Dwarfish character, but there was little spreading out in terms of models for quite some time in AoS. Today they've turned it around and started including old models lines heavily and expanding on those as well.

because at the beginning the thought that Fantasy Marines are going to sell as well as SciFi Marines without understanding why Marines in 40k sold well

and it takes years to change things on the model side and it is nearly impossible to adjust it mid-production
what we see now with AoS is their what they changed 3 years ago

I made allowance for the Stormcast release because it was new. However, the support they gave their old models was literally nothing for quite some time. There were no books being released for the models that were to encourage people to play them. The model side of the game does take time to develop, but a book doesn't take quite as long. It has also been the practice of GW to only do books if there are new models, which didn't help.