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The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.

Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing

 Blndmage wrote:
The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.

Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing

You mean the shambling robo-zombies which can die to bullets and who are only threatening by being very specifically good against phasers? I'm pretty sure in boots on the ground action they can't do much and in space combat, they're not going to like lances, macro batteries, and missiles let alone the other nastier stuff.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.

Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing

You mean the shambling robo-zombies which can die to bullets and who are only threatening by being very specifically good against phasers? I'm pretty sure in boots on the ground action they can't do much and in space combat, they're not going to like lances, macro batteries, and missiles let alone the other nastier stuff.

At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.

 Charistoph wrote:
At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.

Saying that Borg can adapt to anything is a no-limits fallacy, even more so when we've seen that there are things they cannot adapt against. As for that melee weakness, we see drones go down to poorly thrown punches and walk past people in plain sight like 3 feet away from them, you think Marines aren't going to take advantage of that kind of stupidity?

While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
The Borg, not the mess that was Voyager, but Next Generation Borg.

Honestly, Borg vs Necron would be amazing

You mean the shambling robo-zombies which can die to bullets and who are only threatening by being very specifically good against phasers? I'm pretty sure in boots on the ground action they can't do much and in space combat, they're not going to like lances, macro batteries, and missiles let alone the other nastier stuff.

Well, two Borg died to bullets. I've always assumed a third one would have adapted, otherwize they would have replicated Tommy Guns for everyone... .

 Da Boss wrote:
A Mind controlled Drone from the Culture would just go through the space marine at relativistic speeds before the Marine even had time to react.

This is my favourite comparison in the thread. Although "Mind-controlled" is unnecessarily mean to the Marine. Any SC drone (or just a knife missile) would smoosh a marine without needing help. Hell, a civilian drone whose hobby was making menhirs using some uncommonly strong effectors it got from an old ship pal could probably do it.

In some books marines can move in unpowered armour, even relatively easily. So whether or not that would disable the marine is up for debate.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
In some books marines can move in unpowered armour, even relatively easily. So whether or not that would disable the marine is up for debate.

Is this in reply to me?

Cutting power to the armour would be like a D-tier tactic in that confrontation, when options like taking control of the armour or just zapping the Marine's brain exist.

Canadian 5th wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.

Saying that Borg can adapt to anything is a no-limits fallacy, even more so when we've seen that there are things they cannot adapt against. As for that melee weakness, we see drones go down to poorly thrown punches and walk past people in plain sight like 3 feet away from them, you think Marines aren't going to take advantage of that kind of stupidity?

Well I didn't say they can adapt to anything (I played Star Trek Elite Force with the Q-Mod), I was just saying that they tend to fold until they adapt. They don't always adapt, melee being a demonstrable point of error on their part.

And yeah, Marines would do it quite regularly. Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars are more likely to notice this issue sooner than others.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.

Especially if his shirt gets torn or completely ripped off.

Have to agree to a lot already posted:

Predator: a hunter as we know them would likely only win if he is cunning enough to hide without relying on his camo and if he is able to hit first with his plasma caster. 40K marines hate plasma. We don't know much about predators, we don't know if they have an army or some kind of defence force. If they do have soldiers, they probably got some armor and better weapons. The horrible end of 'The Predator' indicated they can make quite some useful armor, which could pose a serious threat to a marine, especially if they use those genetically upgraded predators.

Xenomorph: Only dangerous in groups to anything but unarmed humans. 1:1 againt a 40k marine they would have to be very lucky to do damage at all.

Arachnid: If they are not the Megarachnids from Murder, a single arachnid from SST should be no problem for a marine.

Star Trek Infantry (Fed, Klingons, Romulans etc.): They are all unarmored, but they have powerful energy weapons disintegrating matter, which likely would destroy a 40k marine, so they have a chance but only if they hit first.

Culture drone (Banks' culture series): the 40k marine stands no chance, it will shrugg off the bolter rounds with a field. Idirans or Affront soldiers might be better matches for a 40k marine, but given they probably sometimes fought the culture in infantry fights, they still might be too op for the marine.

FORCE marine (Hyperion by Simmons) in combat armor: would shredd the 40k marine given the description of the fight of Kassad vs. Moneta or the Shrike. Ousters would also be too much for the 40k marine given they gave FORCE a hard time on Bressia. Someone with a liquid metal suit would be even more op and a Shrike would certainly be able to decorate a tree with colorful 40k Space marines (and it would look dope).

Colonial Defense Forces soldier from 'Old Man's War' (Scalzi) might be a fair match for a 40k Space marine. As would some aliens from the series.

Starship Troopers mobile infantry (book, NOT movie) might also be at the level of a 40k Space marine.

One on one? I’d go for a Bolo from Laumers’ books (and the Ogre game). Self aware super tank that makes a Baneblade look like a baby carriage. Cheating, of course, but the OP should probably specify an infantry opponent for the Marine :-)

Moriarty wrote:
One on one? I’d go for a Bolo from Laumers’ books (and the Ogre game). Self aware super tank that makes a Baneblade look like a baby carriage. Cheating, of course, but the OP should probably specify an infantry opponent for the Marine :-)

Anything designated “continental siege units” we should probably be pairing up against titans.

That said, the Imperium’s best chance against Bolo/Ogre level targets is probably a space marine kill team with demo charges. They are both mega tanks designed for apocalyptic nuclear slugfests. They are designed to take multiple nuke hits, keep fighting, and give as good as they take. That said, they do have weak points, and components can be damaged. Some melta bombs or votex grenades might be just the right tool for the job. Getting past all the infinite repeaters/AP guns is no easy task, but this kind of surgical strike is the marines’s forte.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.

I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.

....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.

the_scotsman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.

I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.

....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.

I love that a cheap special effect has basically turned into them having ridiculously powerful particle beam weapons. I guess its a good thing that the Federation is peaceful and Klingons are close combat weirdos because most fights would just be 10 seconds long followed by each side breaking out the dustpan and broom to clean up. I can totally see a homefield advantage crew of Star Trek crew members making some bizarre science based trap to freeze the marine, then they soliloquy around him for a minute about their superior way of life, then maybe after the make a body count of red shirts murdered by the marine let him go, wherein he murders MORE crew members until someone gets the bright idea to shoot him in the face with their ungodly powerful TV remotes.

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.

....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.

You mean the same red beams that didn't do that to crates, rocks, and other mundane objects that have no reason to be hardened against them and wielded by people reluctant to take them off of their stun setting even while their ship is being boarded by hostile forces. I'm less than worried for our boys in power armor.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.

I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.

....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.

I love that a cheap special effect has basically turned into them having ridiculously powerful particle beam weapons. I guess its a good thing that the Federation is peaceful and Klingons are close combat weirdos because most fights would just be 10 seconds long followed by each side breaking out the dustpan and broom to clean up. I can totally see a homefield advantage crew of Star Trek crew members making some bizarre science based trap to freeze the marine, then they soliloquy around him for a minute about their superior way of life, then maybe after the make a body count of red shirts murdered by the marine let him go, wherein he murders MORE crew members until someone gets the bright idea to shoot him in the face with their ungodly powerful TV remotes.

Yep. A lot of science fiction universes have gone the vastly more realistic route of having technology that reduces warfare to the point of impractical ridiculousness. You know, like we did in approximately 1914.

We've been doing wars on the battlespace of the planet earth for a few thousand years, and we've already constructed weapons that are fully capable of utterly obliterating the entire battlespace and everybody on it, and all the major geopolitical players have them. Basic antipersonnel weaponry being essentially totally unblockable, unavoidable, instantaneous matter disintegrators like in star trek makes vastly more sense than basic antipersonnel weaponry being a flashier but demonstrably less effective version of the weaponry we have right now, like in 40k or star wars.

The only context in which space marines, titans, and honestly most aspects of the imperial war machine make any sense is that it's a society that's progressed beyond all reason and they're trying to use things originally designed to just be propaganda tools in actual warfare and they've just forgotten the original reason for their existence, like an alternate universe version of the world where germany won WW2, conquered and amassed all the resources of the planet earth, got so high on their own propaganda that they believed gak like King Tigers and V-2 rockets were actually practical useful weapons and then tried to fight an army of space invaders using just the doofy propagandistic superweapons. Expending the UNIMAGINABLY vast resources necessary to turn the squishy useless meatsack that is a human body into something approaching the effectiveness of one of the admech's "lobotomized brain in a robot" cyborgs is just so wasteful that 'the emperor was actually a delusional narcissist idiot' is the only logical explanation for space marines.

The problem is, there are a plethora of factions in 40k that SHOULD be using actual practical weapons that make actual sense, but aren't, like the craftworld eldar, genestealer cultists, tyranids and tau. There are multiple factions in 40k that would never ever under any realistic circumstances use a weapon that appears on a battlefield - the death guard and nids would just be fighting with basically bioweaponry the size of microbes. And unless Tau had some sort of idiot code of honor requiring them to fight at completely suicidal ranges they'd just be using at least modern-era computer targeters and fighting from 600 board-lengths away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I mean you say that but they're all armed with guns that just make the whole entire everything of whoever they hit glow red and disappear. For all you know, captain picard would point his doofy remote control thingy at a space marine and it'd just "zoop" out of existence.

....And then he'd give a big speech about the futility of believing that only war, and not cooperation, was possible in this grand old galaxy of ours while standing over the tiny pile of ash.

You mean the same red beams that didn't do that to crates, rocks, and other mundane objects that have no reason to be hardened against them and wielded by people reluctant to take them off of their stun setting even while their ship is being boarded by hostile forces. I'm less than worried for our boys in power armor.

If the phaser just shot through literally everything all the time, every time you used one you'd create a catastrophic hull breach. Obviously, because they are ship to ship weapons as well, there are settings you can tune a phaser to where it will destroy inorganic materials, they're just not the default for standard handheld phasers because you don't want them to punch holes in your ship or puncture holes in the crust of a planet accidentally when you miss your target.

We have normal guardsmen killing both loyalist and traitor marines en masse in proper 40k fluff.


A space marine could and would absolutely get killed by things like Jedi. Heck, I saw someone said that master chief would not be able to go toe to toe with a normal space marine, that shows the ignorance in Halo fluff.

the_scotsman wrote:
If the phaser just shot through literally everything all the time, every time you used one you'd create a catastrophic hull breach. Obviously, because they are ship to ship weapons as well, there are settings you can tune a phaser to where it will destroy inorganic materials, they're just not the default for standard handheld phasers because you don't want them to punch holes in your ship or puncture holes in the crust of a planet accidentally when you miss your target.

If those are standard settings explain why it takes half an episode and a lot of, "Sir, I can try it but I'm not sure it'll work.", before phasers can be made to work on inorganic material.

 Galas wrote:
A space marine could and would absolutely get killed by things like Jedi. Heck, I saw someone said that master chief would not be able to go toe to toe with a normal space marine, that shows the ignorance in Halo fluff.

Yet in cannon - Halo cannon is that MC is exactly as tough as he is on a game's legendary mode - there are pistols that can kill him in a few shots and rifles that can do it in one. Given that we know the specifications for those weapons we can say that MC is far, far less durable than a Space Marine and that bolter fire would kill him as quickly as a stuck plasma grenade.

A bolter shot would not in a millon years kill Master Chief with the energy shield of the armor on.

And, I mean... a bolter shot also kills space marines on a single hit in many canon 40k fiction so... ?

You can kill a gorilla with a wooden spoon. That doesnt mean it is that easy.

 Galas wrote:
We have normal guardsmen killing both loyalist and traitor marines en masse in proper 40k fluff.


A space marine could and would absolutely get killed by things like Jedi. Heck, I saw someone said that master chief would not be able to go toe to toe with a normal space marine, that shows the ignorance in Halo fluff.

In hand to hand more than likely. Even with a plasma sword a Marine is faster and tougher than your average Halo enemy. Like if a Brute had Hunter armor and moved like a Jackal. I think the reasoning is that his weapons aren't exactly all that advanced on first appearance. Maybe with some Covenant plasma weapons for sure he would be wrecking some Marines. I do wonder about the strength of his shield systems to be able to stop something like a bolter round.

Also as a side note I always see eldar plasma grenades the same as covenant plasma grenades

How are Covenant Energy Swords or Plasma weaponry measurably less powerfull than plasma and energy weapons from 40k? Or their energy shields and armors worse than Eldar or Tau weaponry?

Master Chief kills all the time and fights agaisnt stuff that isn't that different from many races than in 40k kill marines without a problem.

Are you telling me an ork boy with a choppa or a guardsmen with a overcharged lasgun can kill a marine and Master Chief or an Covenant Elite with a energy sword cannot because marines are just too fastz and str0nk? Lets say I respectfully disagree.

 Galas wrote:
How are Covenant Energy Swords or Plasma weaponry measurably less powerfull than plasma and energy weapons from 40k? Or their energy shields and armors worse than Eldar or Tau weaponry?

Master Chief kills all the time and fights agaisnt stuff that isn't that different from many races than in 40k kill marines without a problem.

Are you telling me an ork boy with a choppa or a guardsmen with a overcharged lasgun can kill a marine and Master Chief or an Covenant Elite with a energy sword cannot because marines are just too fastz and str0nk? Lets say I respectfully disagree.

Guardsmen with overcharged lasguns never kill marines the existence of militarum tempestus with hotshot lasguns that are explicitly good at getting through power armor is just imaginary.

 Galas wrote:
A bolter shot would not in a millon years kill Master Chief with the energy shield of the armor on.

Yet the Special Applications Rifle, Caliber 14.5 mm, SRS99 does just that and it only carries 29,850 J (22,020 ft⋅lbf) of energy. The explosive energy in a bolter round is going to pack more than that. Even a lasgun will kill him in only a couple of shots as shown by this explaination:

Connor MacLeod wrote:fist sized" hole in a humanoid body implies at least around 10-12 cm diameter area cauterized (the hole plus some of the surrounding tissue). "Through" the body implies it passes through roughly 20-25 cm or so of torso (depending on physique.) We know its cauterized due to the "lack of blood" and the "smoking hole".

Assuming a cylindrical hole given the dimensions above, the amount of tissue affected would be around 1.5-2.8 kg, including the cauterization of the tissues around the hole.

Conservative estimates should put tissue temp at a minimum of 200C, the water content in the body should be raised to a temp of 173C.
Assuming tissue temps reach 300-400 C at least, this corresponds to the water content in the body (factoring in the differences in specific heat) of between 256-340 C. The temp of a human body is roughly 37 degrees C. Given that, this means that tissue temp must be raised by at least 163 degrees, the body water content by 136 degrees (200 C cauterization.) At 300-400C, the increase is 263 and 219 C (300 C cauterization) and 363 and 303 C (400 C cauterization)

Given the specific heats above, this translates to an energy input of:

- 571 kilojoules per kg at 200 C cauterization

- 921 kilojoules per kg at 300 C cauterization

- 1.271 megajoules per kg at 400 C cauterization.

This works out to a "per shot" las-bolt range of at least 860 kilojoules to 1.9 megatjoules at least (1.5 kg) to 1.6-3.55 megajoules per shot (2.8 kg)

AS a side note, another enemy evidently uses a las-weapon to begin melting the stone Tarok was hiding behind. It looks more like a sustained event, and its not easy to get an EXACT size on the rock (or properties), but even if it were a fairly small rock (say half a foot in diameter) it would weigh at least a few kg. Assuming silicon like properties it could easily take 5-6 megajoules to melt, and the whole event could be no more than a couple seconds, providing a secondary confirmation of the magnitude of the firepower.

Norade wrote:A lasgun shot produces at least 571 kilojoules worth of energy, by comparison a modern RGD-5 hand grenade filled with 110g of TNT produces only 506 kilojoules of energy. Master Chief can be killed by a pair of grenades and while the grenades in Halo are slightly more powerful having a confirmed kill ratio of 5m instead of only 3m for the RGD-5 that isn't a huge increase. Even assuming that ComL, the filler in a Halo grenade is 50% more powerful than the explosive used to fill modern grenades and knowing that Halo grenades use 190 grams versus 110 grams for the RGD-5 we only get an energy of 1,310 kilojoules. That means that it should take roughly three or four lasgun shots to kill MC and that is what we see.

If you want to see more arguments for how weak MC check this ancient thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/305176.page

 Galas wrote:
How are Covenant Energy Swords or Plasma weaponry measurably less powerfull than plasma and energy weapons from 40k? Or their energy shields and armors worse than Eldar or Tau weaponry?

Because those shields drop to less than a magazine of assault rifle rounds and we have modern armor than can take more unshielded hits than the super special Mewmeow armor MC wears can. Plus, Halo energy weapons are less powerful than 40k weapons and we can use both gameplay, cutscenes, and novels to prove that.

So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?

I mean. I have not done any kind of scientific calculations , as flawed as those are when working based in like, a ton of assumptions, so my reasoning holds much less water but this feels a ton like... chosing the worst examples of one canon and the most "powerfull" ones of 40k canon to justify it.

The reality is that 40K never tried to have any form of physical realism so they just do cool stuff and shots black holes at each other.


I'll say again. If space marine power armour can protect them from a ton of lasgun fire but an ork boy hitting it with a choppa can kill it on a single strike are you telling me by those calculations each time an Ork Boy slap something it is more powerfull than a real life high explosive hand grenade?

 Galas wrote:
So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?

The same way we have IRL instances of people getting half their brain blown out of their head and surviving while other people die from getting hit with a BB gun. Sometimes weird stuff happens and over the sheer number of battles and wounds in 40k there's bound to be a lot of weird stuff happening every day.

 Galas wrote:
So how by those calculations you have a ton of 40k fiction where lasgun shots hit humans, cultists and ork boyz and they suffer non lethal damage?

I mean. I have not done any kind of scientific calculations , as flawed as those are when working based in like, a ton of assumptions, so my reasoning holds much less water but this feels a ton like... chosing the worst examples of one canon and the most "powerfull" ones of 40k canon to justify it.

Halo cannon is officially that the Legendary difficulty of the game shows how durable MC is. The fluff shows what kinds of weapons he uses and we can test those weapons against him in-game on the cannon difficulty and figure out exactly how durable he is. There is nothing to cherry-pick from actual data and known ammunition types used by real-life militaries.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Yet in cannon - Halo cannon is that MC is exactly as tough as he is on a game's legendary mode - there are pistols that can kill him in a few shots and rifles that can do it in one. Given that we know the specifications for those weapons we can say that MC is far, far less durable than a Space Marine and that bolter fire would kill him as quickly as a stuck plasma grenade.

By the same token, we have gobs of established 40k fluff of Space Marines being killed by such mundane things as teeth, claws, unpowered blades wielded by human-strength level opponents, and common infantry mortars.

None of these portrayals in any IP are particularly consistent, and vary wildly by author and era.

 Galas wrote:
I'll say again. If space marine power armour can protect them from a ton of lasgun fire but an ork boy hitting it with a choppa can kill it on a single strike are you telling me by those calculations each time an Ork Boy slap something it is more powerfull than a real life high explosive hand grenade?

No, but it does mean they hit hard enough to go through a weak point in Marine armor and have enough skill (or simply rain down enough blows) to hit said weak points. Plus something something WAAAGH energy, something something.

How is Legendary canon when "Heroic is the way Halo was meant to be played" is in all the games?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just can't find where they said Legendary is the canon.

 Charistoph wrote:

Canadian 5th wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
At least... till they adapt and most of that is made completely useless. Melee still seemed to work, though. For some reason they never shield against that.

Saying that Borg can adapt to anything is a no-limits fallacy, even more so when we've seen that there are things they cannot adapt against. As for that melee weakness, we see drones go down to poorly thrown punches and walk past people in plain sight like 3 feet away from them, you think Marines aren't going to take advantage of that kind of stupidity?

Well I didn't say they can adapt to anything (I played Star Trek Elite Force with the Q-Mod), I was just saying that they tend to fold until they adapt. They don't always adapt, melee being a demonstrable point of error on their part.

And yeah, Marines would do it quite regularly. Chapters like Space Wolves and Black Templars are more likely to notice this issue sooner than others.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:While most of the Star Trek franchise would indeed fold like a cheap suit, there is not enough Ceramite this side of Mars to withstand a Captain Kirk flying double Hammer-blow. Run to the hills when Amok Time starts playing over the vox. Just saying.

Especially if his shirt gets torn or completely ripped off.

In the interest of a “fair fight” I think we reserve the ripped shirt for a duel with a Primarch. Come to think of it, maybe Kirk is the Emperor? It all fits now...