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Ediin wrote:And one more thing: you said that Boltgun shells are equal to RPG-7 rockets. Then why do they not use a blast template in-game?
Why are there dozens of novels that describe normal mutants getting shot in the head by a bolter and surviving? I'm sure that a RPG would turn a mutant into jelly.

1. Same reason that grenades don't have blast templates.
2. Black library authors vary widely in their descriptions of everything. Some are particularly worse than others.

ph34r wrote:Given that Imperial Assassins go through non-space-marine enhancement procedures, similar to Spartans, MC would have str 4 and toughness 4.

He is an expert shot, possibly better than a marine. BS 4 or 5.

In close combat, not so much. Given that close combat veteran guardsmen have WS4, and space marines also have WS4, Master Chief would be in the WS4 range for sure.

Wounds, compared to a SM's stats, 1. But given the whole gameplay/fluff problems, it would not be unreasonable at all to give him hero wounds, like an imperial guard heroic officer. Wounds 3. 4 would be "god of war" status that a Spartan just couldn't bulk up to.

Initiative, he is more than human fast, but not hardcore close combat level. 4, maybe 5 if you're being generous.

Attacks, if a heroic IG officer can have 3 attacks then so can MC. Comparing him to a basic or assault SM doesn't work out as there is no solid consistency between fluff and various rules.

Leadership, probably ld9. He's brave, but not fanatic-leader-level.

Save is power armor. Definitely stronger than stormtrooper armor or firewarrior armor or orks with big armor scraps. Closer to SoB power armor than SM, but 3+ nonetheless. Invuln is likely better than an IG sergeant's collar mounted refractor field. 4+ would be correct.

WS:4 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 ld:9 Sv:3+/4++

So basically a SM captain with slight changes.

So personal augmentation is going to be equal between a power that is in a universe set around 38,000 years in the future versus one that is just over 500 years beyond our own. Somehow I highly doubt that... His strength should be at most 3 as he's not even close to as strong as an ork and they are upper end strength 3.

You then go on to say that he's a better shot than a Space Marine, might I ask what you're basing this off of? Why should a soldier who is part of an experimental program and who has less than 3 decades of combat experience be better at combat than a genetically modified super soldier who not only get training inducted into his mind directly, who trains near every waking hour when not in combat, and who can have many centuries of combat experience?

In close combat MC swings his weapon in a predictable way versus enemies so brain dead they never even thing to block or to fight back in anyway more meaningful than swinging their own weapon back. Even the combat scene from Halo Wars is nothing compared to how fast and efficiently we see an SM captain beat a warboss in this clip. That was five solid attacks with a hammer larger than his own torso in 10 seconds and he was strong enough to bash the warbosses hammer aside. I would like to see MC even attempt that.

I could see MC having a second wound to represent his luck.

Initiative wise I could see him being a 4 as guardsmen are trained to act as one not take personal initiative.

MC should really only have a single attack, he's closer to a tactical marine than an assault marine.

Leadership, I could see it being 10 s he's used to fighting without support and he knows he can't fail even once or he's dead. We never once see him show fear in the games.

His power armor can be breaches by modern rifle rounds that even a guardsman's armor can stop. At best it is a 5+ save. The same goes for his invulnerable which is effected by the same rounds. At most I could give him a 5++ and likely only a 6++ given that a single grenade drops his shields in all the Halo games and he can be harmed by them in the books as well.

Ediin wrote:@ Norade

I find that your primary argument to Chief being bad is a novel. Novels are FICTION. The author deliberately makes weapons more powerful than they really are.
Your ''maths'' are based on fiction, which means your maths are pretty wrong.

Those being equal to the effects of a lasgun on the human body how? Master Chief is not an Ork, nor is he a Tyranid, both of which have shown to be very, very tough in the past. Also we use rocks or human flesh to calculate firepower as they have known properties, Ork's are made of spores and can survive having heads cut off and put on new bodies and Tyranids are layers of living chittin with a bio gel layer in their least forms.

But a lasgun is more powerful than a grenade, right? I think even a Genestealer would die from a grenade to the face.

And one more thing: you said that Boltgun shells are equal to RPG-7 rockets. Then why do they not use a blast template in-game?
Why are there dozens of novels that describe normal mutants getting shot in the head by a bolter and surviving? I'm sure that a RPG would turn a mutant into jelly.

Because novels are wrong. I'm off to work, ciao.

Let me get this straight; a novel, about something that doesn't really exist, is wrong because you says so... I suppose you've fired a real lasgun or chatted up a Space Marine and watched him frag something with his bolter? Here's a hint, 40k isn't real so they can't make something more powerful than it really is as they things they're writing about don't really exist. I know, hard concept isn't it.

Would you like to redo the calculations and show where they are in error or are you just going to say that you think a genestealer would die from a modern hand grenade?

Why can't a handful of Astartes clear out a hundred guard before moving on to slay some orks on the table top? Perhaps for game balance reasons, not to mention that there are more types of rounds than explosive rounds.

I'll also ask for quotes from your sources, if there are so many examples they shouldn't be hard to find. Besides, who's to say those novels aren't the wrong ones?

In short stop typing one handed, Halo is a fun game but the amount that people spank MC is slowed.

Norade wrote:So personal augmentation is going to be equal between a power that is in a universe set around 38,000 years in the future versus one that is just over 500 years beyond our own. Somehow I highly doubt that... His strength should be at most 3 as he's not even close to as strong as an ork and they are upper end strength 3.

Did I say "personal augmentation is going to be equal between a power that is in a universe set around 38,000 years in the future versus one that is just over 500 years beyond our own"? No, I didn't. Nice strawman attempt though, it's always a super special way to start off a post! Orks are str 4 when they charge, as strong as a super human. Otherwise, they are as strong as a really really strong human: str 3. Master chief is stronger than is humanly possible. Same with toughness. Hell, Yarrick is toughness 4 and he is just an angry old guy with a robo eye.

You then go on to say that he's a better shot than a Space Marine, might I ask what you're basing this off of? Why should a soldier who is part of an experimental program and who has less than 3 decades of combat experience be better at combat than a genetically modified super soldier who not only get training inducted into his mind directly, who trains near every waking hour when not in combat, and who can have many centuries of combat experience?

How about the fact that veteran guardsmen are BS4, and a Spartan is certainly significantly better than a veteran guardsman. Yeah, I think that covers it pretty well.

In close combat MC swings his weapon in a predictable way versus enemies so brain dead they never even thing to block or to fight back in anyway more meaningful than swinging their own weapon back. Even the combat scene from Halo Wars is nothing compared to how fast and efficiently we see an SM captain beat a warboss in this clip. That was five solid attacks with a hammer larger than his own torso in 10 seconds and he was strong enough to bash the warbosses hammer aside. I would like to see MC even attempt that.

What? Are you kidding? "Because the melee animation in Halo 2 is simple, MC is super terrible at close combat!!11"
Your arguments suck big time. Really. They're just awful. Unless you have some other reason that you think MC swings his weapon in a predictable way vs brain dead enemies (you have never read a halo book).

I could see MC having a second wound to represent his luck.

How about 3 wounds, because being an old guy in the Imperial Guard gives you that. Yep, I think we'll stick with 3 wounds.

Initiative wise I could see him being a 4 as guardsmen are trained to act as one not take personal initiative.

4 probably fits the bill. Marines are supposed to be amazingly fast.

MC should really only have a single attack, he's closer to a tactical marine than an assault marine.

An Imperial Guard sergeant has 2 attacks base. Try again!

Leadership, I could see it being 10 s he's used to fighting without support and he knows he can't fail even once or he's dead. We never once see him show fear in the games.

That would be reasonable.

His power armor can be breaches by modern rifle rounds that even a guardsman's armor can stop. At best it is a 5+ save. The same goes for his invulnerable which is effected by the same rounds. At most I could give him a 5++ and likely only a 6++ given that a single grenade drops his shields in all the Halo games and he can be harmed by them in the books as well.

Are you joking? You are completely off your rocker by this point. IG armor is pretty damn awful, it doesn't even cover your entire body. Stormtrooper carapace is better but still leaves huge areas uncovered. Compare to any of the "power armor" variants you can find in Dark Heresy books, all meticulously detailed and statted, and you will realize that there is no way a full suit of powered armor is in the "hard armor plates over cloth" category.
Spartan shield is clearly stronger than a refractor field is described as in fluff. Maybe you should read some more.

ph34r wrote:

Norade wrote:So personal augmentation is going to be equal between a power that is in a universe set around 38,000 years in the future versus one that is just over 500 years beyond our own. Somehow I highly doubt that... His strength should be at most 3 as he's not even close to as strong as an ork and they are upper end strength 3.

Did I say "personal augmentation is going to be equal between a power that is in a universe set around 38,000 years in the future versus one that is just over 500 years beyond our own"? No, I didn't. Nice strawman attempt though, it's always a super special way to start off a post! Orks are str 4 when they charge, as strong as a super human. Otherwise, they are as strong as a really really strong human: str 3. Master chief is stronger than is humanly possible. Same with toughness. Hell, Yarrick is toughness 4 and he is just an angry old guy with a robo eye.

You did compare an Imperial Assassin to MC, or are you going to just pretend you never said that? Also, I'd love to see your proof that MC is stronger than an ork. Remember to provide some quotes.

You then go on to say that he's a better shot than a Space Marine, might I ask what you're basing this off of? Why should a soldier who is part of an experimental program and who has less than 3 decades of combat experience be better at combat than a genetically modified super soldier who not only get training inducted into his mind directly, who trains near every waking hour when not in combat, and who can have many centuries of combat experience?

How about the fact that veteran guardsmen are BS4, and a Spartan is certainly significantly better than a veteran guardsman. Yeah, I think that covers it pretty well.

Care to explain exactly how MC is better than a veteran guardsman? You keep making claims, but I'm not seeing a lot of proof. I can't prove a negative so you're going to need to start showing some evidence.

In close combat MC swings his weapon in a predictable way versus enemies so brain dead they never even thing to block or to fight back in anyway more meaningful than swinging their own weapon back. Even the combat scene from Halo Wars is nothing compared to how fast and efficiently we see an SM captain beat a warboss in this clip. That was five solid attacks with a hammer larger than his own torso in 10 seconds and he was strong enough to bash the warbosses hammer aside. I would like to see MC even attempt that.

What? Are you kidding? "Because the melee animation in Halo 2 is simple, MC is super terrible at close combat!!11"
Your arguments suck big time. Really. They're just awful. Unless you have some other reason that you think MC swings his weapon in a predictable way vs brain dead enemies (you have never read a halo book).

Except that Halo canon policy says that gameplay and in game cutscenes > books.

I could see MC having a second wound to represent his luck.

How about 3 wounds, because being an old guy in the Imperial Guard gives you that. Yep, I think we'll stick with 3 wounds.

You mean the cyberneticaly enhanced old guy who is legendary for coming back from he brink of death...

Initiative wise I could see him being a 4 as guardsmen are trained to act as one not take personal initiative.

4 probably fits the bill. Marines are supposed to be amazingly fast.

While I doubt MC is Astartes fast, he's certainly faster than a guardsman.

MC should really only have a single attack, he's closer to a tactical marine than an assault marine.

An Imperial Guard sergeant has 2 attacks base. Try again!

So do SM sergeants and MC isn't even in the same category as they are.

His power armor can be breached by modern rifle rounds that even a guardsman's armor can stop. At best it is a 5+ save. The same goes for his invulnerable which is effected by the same rounds. At most I could give him a 5++ and likely only a 6++ given that a single grenade drops his shields in all the Halo games and he can be harmed by them in the books as well.

Are you joking? You are completely off your rocker by this point. IG armor is pretty damn awful, it doesn't even cover your entire body. Stormtrooper carapace is better but still leaves huge areas uncovered. Compare to any of the "power armor" variants you can find in Dark Heresy books, all meticulously detailed and statted, and you will realize that there is no way a full suit of powered armor is in the "hard armor plates over cloth" category.
Spartan shield is clearly stronger than a refractor field is described as in fluff. Maybe you should read some more.

It takes 18 rounds of 7.62 x 51mm ammo to down a Spartan's shields and kill him. 18 rounds of that ammo type will impart a total of 63 kilojoules of energy into a spartan giving us a low end estimate for how little it takes to drop a Spartan II. IG armor can withstand hits from lasguns and be fine, MC's shields would be dropped by a single shot and that may be enough energy to kill him outright in a single shot.

WS: 4
BS: 4
We can assume MC has better training than a guardsman, anything above 4 is getting a bit to high
S: 3(4)
T: 3(4)
S and T of 3, his training/suit gives him +(1) of each, better than a guardsman but 3(4) is not as good as a marines 4
W: 2
He not a HQ type, hes more of a one man army, for a non-HQ character 2 wounds seems fine
I: 4
He faster than a guardsman, but not as fast as aspect warriors
A: 2
Again, for a non HQ 2 attacks seems good
LD: 10
MC isn't afraid of anything, i can't really see him running
SV: 4+/3++*
I'd put his armour on par with carapace, it may not be as thick but it can survive extreme pressure and if fully enclosed.
As for the invun make it a 3+, it can absorb almost anything but if he fails it its gone for D3 player turns as it recharges.

As for weapons, the rifle would be effectivly an AP5 lasgun with assault 3
I'd give him the option to take a spartan laser which can take out ghosts (effectively a bike so it has to be AP3 at least) and banshees (Av 12 10 10 open topped) in a single shot. So i'd rate that as being 48" S:7 AP:3 Assault 1
As for the power sword, it can kill most things in one hit in halo and knock crates across the room, but it doesn't slow MC down. Double his S with it to make him strike at 6(7) let it ignore armour but strike at his I of 4.

Norade wrote:You did compare an Imperial Assassin to MC, or are you going to just pretend you never said that? Also, I'd love to see your proof that MC is stronger than an ork. Remember to provide some quotes.

Sure. I didn't say that the technologies were equal, just that the end result is. And guess what, MC can flip a tank. Orks definitely CANNOT do that. Space marines can.

Care to explain exactly how MC is better than a veteran guardsman? You keep making claims, but I'm not seeing a lot of proof. I can't prove a negative so you're going to need to start showing some evidence.

A veteran guardsman does not have as much training as a Spartan, let alone MC. A veteran guardsman does not have augmentations. He doesn't have auto targeters. If sly marbo, or a techmarine, can get BS5, MC can get BS5.

Except that Halo canon policy says that gameplay and in game cutscenes > books.

So what you honestly believe... is that because there are less animations in game, that master chief only knows how to attack in melee combat in one way?
Wow. Uhhh... lol.

You mean the cyberneticaly enhanced old guy who is legendary for coming back from he brink of death...

No. I don't. I mean that every company commander has 3 wounds. And is a frail old guy, or random guardsman who was promoted. Yeah, MC will have 3 wounds.

So do SM sergeants and MC isn't even in the same category as they are.

Exactly! Thanks for proving my point. Every random ass sergeant and platoon commander in existence has 2 attacks. MC definitely has more close combat skill than a guardsman who was promoted.

It takes 18 rounds of 7.62 x 51mm ammo to down a Spartan's shields and kill him. 18 rounds of that ammo type will impart a total of 63 kilojoules of energy into a spartan giving us a low end estimate for how little it takes to drop a Spartan II. IG armor can withstand hits from lasguns and be fine, MC's shields would be dropped by a single shot and that may be enough energy to kill him outright in a single shot.

Instead of trying to crunch numbers that were never crunched when the background was written, try comparing the obvious equivalents as given to us plainly by GW. Then you'll see how wrong you are
Go read a Dark Heresy book. Really, it will put a lot in perspective.

Norade wrote:You did compare an Imperial Assassin to MC, or are you going to just pretend you never said that? Also, I'd love to see your proof that MC is stronger than an ork. Remember to provide some quotes.

Look about 05:50 in that video.

Care to explain exactly how MC is better than a veteran guardsman? You keep making claims, but I'm not seeing a lot of proof. I can't prove a negative so you're going to need to start showing some evidence.

I'm not sure that a veteran guadsman would be able to fight aliens in cc with a sword, pilot spaceships, or save the world.

You mean the cyberneticaly enhanced old guy who is legendary for coming back from he brink of death...

You mean the specially selected uberhuman who was trained for 15 years and is the most skilled warrior in the Halo universe?

It takes 18 rounds of 7.62 x 51mm ammo to down a Spartan's shields and kill him. 18 rounds of that ammo type will impart a total of 63 kilojoules of energy into a spartan giving us a low end estimate for how little it takes to drop a Spartan II. IG armor can withstand hits from lasguns and be fine, MC's shields would be dropped by a single shot and that may be enough energy to kill him outright in a single shot.

Stop it. Your lasgun ''maths'' are still fail. It's a novel, fiction. Not a technical guide to the 40k-verse. Authors make weapons OTT to add drama. That does not mean
a lasgun is a grenade launcher. The author you quoted was exaggerating. It's a normal thing that all sci-fi writers do.

One thing about the Lasgun vs. Bullets arguement is that Lasguns are specified in the fluff to be very effective against unarmored targets but much less so against tough power armor or terminator armor. For a good idea of what lasguns do to unarmored targets, see the Warhammer 40k wiki.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lasgun

The point can also be made that the Plasma weapons native to the Halo universe would probably be what Master Chief's armor is built to withstand, which would mean that he is more or less better armored against energy weapons than against ballistic weapons. The UNSC isn't expecting their own soldiers to fire at MC, after all.

However, that is just speculation. The point here is that lasguns' ineffectiveness against armor is already represented by the fact that they can't automatically penetrate any armor unless that armor happens to not exist. Similarly, they are unable to damage any type of vehicles in any way.

It might be best to give MC a 4+ rerollable armor save, since he may or may not be hardened against energy weapons but in gameplay or fluff there's little doubt what something like a missile or an autocannon equivalent would do to his unshielded armor.

As for the shield, it might be best to make it a 5++. If you really want, give MC a 4++, but make sure then that he doesn't get more then 2 wounds.

As for toughness, he's a man in power armor, but only a man. Well trained and specially engineered to be tough, but still very poor when compared to the processes a Space Marine goes through.

For weapons, it might be better to give him something that reflects a more commando like individual. Rerolls on BS 4 would work, but if one wanted to simplify things, BS 4 would do just.

The Battle Rifle would probably be a lasgun except Assault 2, but really, isn't it a better idea to give him the weapons that might really matter? A Covenant Fuel Rod Cannon would probably be something like S 6 Ap 4 Blast, Assault 1/2, and then he's a relatively good artillery soldier if you give him Move Through Cover due to his more commando like qualities.

Giving him the ability to engage in close combat might be tricky, but the energy sword would make a decent, is not an end all weapon in that case. Probably a straight up power weapon, since it messes up most of the heavy infantry it hits but isn't so effective against Vehicles or Hunters.

The best thing to understand here is that it might be better to give him a more utilitarian aspect than straight up excellence. Stats are nice, but Veterans and Marbo do just fine with T 3 and S 3, and it's the rules and wargear that make them the threat.

Which makes his profile just like the one I posted on the previous page.

Although I believe he should be S4, the man flips tanks and lifts Drop Pods after all.

Norade wrote:

Ediin wrote:Except that Chief saved the world. And I dont think that a single Tactical Marine could do that?
I admit that it's a game, but still. Ws 3 and Bs 3 doesn't work either. He's not an ordinary human.

Please read Brotherhood of the Snake where a single Marine saved a world from Dark Eldar without help from a fleet or a team of ODST special forces or anybody else for that matter. You're flatly wrong about the capabilities of Master Chief when compared to that of a member of the Astartes.

Thank you. You know what you are talking about.
Chief has an army help him every time. In halo 3, you get ODSTs every mission.
Fluff mc vs fluff marine= another corpse with bolt holes in it

You know what, I had a huge rebuttal typed up, but it would be wasted on people who argue that weapons that don't exist in real life are written as to strong by the authors that are inventing them.

Norade wrote:weapons that don't exist in real life are written as to strong by the authors that are inventing them

Exactly. Authors exaggerate.

Ediin wrote:

Norade wrote:weapons that don't exist in real life are written as to strong by the authors that are inventing them

Exactly. Authors exaggerate.

Way to be dishonest and quote me out of context. The basic weapons issued to each and every soldier of the Imperium are 100 kilojoule to low megajoule weapons, please explain to me how those weapons are too strong and tell me what exactly you're basing that on.

I'm basing it on the fact that in most cases lasguns are described as weak. In the novel Fifteen Hours, one of the protagonists shoots an Ork in the head
with a Hotshot Lasgun and it merely passes through the Orks head, without blowing it to smithereens. And this was a HOTSHOT lasgun.

Most of the cases were the effects of lasguns are described are like this. Not much more powerful than a modern day weapon. And certainly not a grenade launcher.

compared to Autoguns how much better can the tecnology be? I mean, Autoguns are purposely produced (in most cases) for people who can't manufacture high end tech. I'm pretty sure what the UNSC and Covenant use have been made with better technology and would at the very least equal a Lasgun

even though there is that whole Cauterize vs Bleeding between the Lasguns and Autoguns but that doesn't mean much here.

Ediin wrote:I'm basing it on the fact that in most cases lasguns are described as weak. In the novel Fifteen Hours, one of the protagonists shoots an Ork in the head
with a Hotshot Lasgun and it merely passes through the Orks head, without blowing it to smithereens. And this was a HOTSHOT lasgun.

Most of the cases were the effects of lasguns are described are like this. Not much more powerful than a modern day weapon. And certainly not a grenade launcher.

First of all Ork =/= Human, they are described as being far tougher than we are and that is yet another example of that. There biology is also based on mobile intelligent fungus and is not built at all like a human.

Second how large was the hole? You'd be surprised at how much it takes to bow even a quarter sized hole in a human head and I suspect it was much longer. Once again, a quote would do nicely.

Third hotshot packs, and lasguns in general, aren't all equal just as not all modern rifles are equal.This point should be easy to prove, just look at an M16, an AK-47, and an SA80 each are clearly different coming with different muzzle velocities.

Lotet wrote:compared to Autoguns how much better can the tecnology be? I mean, Autoguns are purposely produced (in most cases) for people who can't manufacture high end tech. I'm pretty sure what the UNSC and Covenant use have been made with better technology and would at the very least equal a Lasgun

even though there is that whole Cauterize vs Bleeding between the Lasguns and Autoguns but that doesn't mean much here.

Care to do the math showing the energy and penetration of a modern round and proving that they are equal, or are you going to continue to be intellectually lazy and simply state what you believe without proof? Here's a hint, no matter how advanced a rifle gets there are hard limits on how powerful they can be as a human can only absorb so much recoil and that places a hard limit on both the mass and velocity of a round. Mass less weapons, IE lasguns, also have some recoil, but at the level of a lasgun it will be far less than even a modern rifle. Here's a link proving my case,

Also, one thing to note about hotshot packs is that they are designed more towards armor penetration than for raw power. A lot of force, or in this case a higher intensity laser, on a small area will punch through armor better than a lesser force or laser, but it won't necessarily cause a gory explosion or similar effects. Also, Lasguns are stated in the fluff to cause a variety of effects on unarmored targets, like exploding limbs and so forth.

Comments about how the portrayal of the weapons in a story don't affect how powerful they actually are rather poorly thought out. In fiction, one has to go by what is given. If one isn't given exact measures of light applied per square inch by a lasgun and how large the beam is, then they have to go by what it does in action. Otherwise, you end up with speculation based upon opinion and belief instead of facts.

Just because a lasgun isn't that powerful in the setting doesn't mean that it isn't a powerful weapon. It must have some effectiveness, after all, the fact that its able to penetrate even the vulnerable points of heavy power armor is a credit to how much damage it can actually do, especially since the ceramite used in such armors is noted in the fluff to be incredibly resilient to heating, the primary method of damage for a lasgun against tougher targets.

How powerful can a weapon that still relies on gunpowder be? The weapons that the UNSC uses still use familiar calibers that we use today, but they more likely than not use the best in materials and construction processes in their time to supplement them and make them more powerful than their modern day counter parts. It's difficult to say how powerful the UNSC shotgun is, for example, since it's stated to be an 8 gauge weapon yet the recoil is said to be very easy to handle, implying that some type of mechanism is integrated into it to make it more manageable. Once recoil is can be controlled, the power that fire arms can be designed for increases greatly.

Then again, that is also speculation. More official fluff on that matter would help clear the power of the UNSC fire arms up, but it right now remains a murky issue.

MarkingLight wrote:How powerful can a weapon that still relies on gunpowder be? The weapons that the UNSC uses still use familiar calibers that we use today, but they more likely than not use the best in materials and construction processes in their time to supplement them and make them more powerful than their modern day counter parts. It's difficult to say how powerful the UNSC shotgun is, for example, since it's stated to be an 8 gauge weapon yet the recoil is said to be very easy to handle, implying that some type of mechanism is integrated into it to make it more manageable. Once recoil is can be controlled, the power that fire arms can be designed for increases greatly.

Then again, that is also speculation. More official fluff on that matter would help clear the power of the UNSC fire arms up, but it right now remains a murky issue.

On the issue of the shotgun they might be using something like the recoil control system that the AA12 has, but the more recoil you need to absorb the heavier your weapon gets so there is a still a hard limit to what a single human soldier can carry. The UNSC might have been wise to give MC some Spartan specific weapons. Even if they wanted to keep the same ammo types they could make a dual barreled shotgun, or a quad Assault rifle that is easy for a Spartan to heft, but would be vehicle mounted normally.

Speaking of vehicle mounted if MC can flip tanks, why does carrying a vehicle mounted weapon slow him down so much?

In one of the books, the one that deals with the first Halo game, he flipped the tank by jumping on it and using his weight and a quick motion to turn it onto its wheels, or something like that

when I looked at the Halo wiki it said an Assault Rifle had a maximum range of 300m with 650 rounds per minute and puts out 2472 ft·lb of force, which according to a Joules calculator thing I Googled meant 3351.5 Joules but the Standard Plasma Rifle uses about 100-150 Kilavolts of enrgy per shot, whatever that means...

Ediin wrote:

Norade wrote:You did compare an Imperial Assassin to MC, or are you going to just pretend you never said that? Also, I'd love to see your proof that MC is stronger than an ork. Remember to provide some quotes.

Look about 05:50 in that video.

Care to explain exactly how MC is better than a veteran guardsman? You keep making claims, but I'm not seeing a lot of proof. I can't prove a negative so you're going to need to start showing some evidence.

I'm not sure that a veteran guadsman would be able to fight aliens in cc with a sword, pilot spaceships, or save the world.

You mean the cyberneticaly enhanced old guy who is legendary for coming back from he brink of death...

You mean the specially selected uberhuman who was trained for 15 years and is the most skilled warrior in the Halo universe?

It takes 18 rounds of 7.62 x 51mm ammo to down a Spartan's shields and kill him. 18 rounds of that ammo type will impart a total of 63 kilojoules of energy into a spartan giving us a low end estimate for how little it takes to drop a Spartan II. IG armor can withstand hits from lasguns and be fine, MC's shields would be dropped by a single shot and that may be enough energy to kill him outright in a single shot.

Stop it. Your lasgun ''maths'' are still fail. It's a novel, fiction. Not a technical guide to the 40k-verse. Authors make weapons OTT to add drama. That does not mean
a lasgun is a grenade launcher. The author you quoted was exaggerating. It's a normal thing that all sci-fi writers do.

I wrote this.

Norade wrote:You know what, I had a huge rebuttal typed up, but it would be wasted on people who argue that weapons that don't exist in real life are written as to strong by the authors that are inventing them.

And you wrote this. You keep avoiding my arguments and I think it wont be long until you start trolling too.

A good indication of the power of UNSC weapons can be found in their standard assault rifle, at least the MA5B variant. It uses the same rounds as a variety of battle rifles today, though they more likely than not are enhanced in some way. Not only that, but it is able to fire in full automatic, something that is almost useless on all of the other battle rifles and is usually fixed by welding the firing mode selector so that they are stuck on semi-automatic. 3351.5 Joules is a little less than the given kinetic energy in the article about the real life rounds, but most of the rifles that I've given links to don't actually reach those velocities exactly with their rounds, so it's more likely than not pretty close.

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/MA5B_Individual_Combat_Weapon_System
http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/7.62x51
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_SCAR-H SCAR-H
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M14_rifle

That's also a good indication of how the Assault rifle might be a good weapon for today but more likely than not wouldn't be more effective than a lasgun. Lasguns have been noted as being able to take advantage of weak points in power armor, but modern day armor like Interceptor and Dragonskin armor can withstand multiple rounds of 7.62mm NATO before being rendered ineffective. These are 20-30 pound vests, not massive suits of futuristic armor based off of the technology form a massive Golden Age of Technology.

Lotet wrote:In one of the books, the one that deals with the first Halo game, he flipped the tank by jumping on it and using his weight and a quick motion to turn it onto its wheels, or something like that

when I looked at the Halo wiki it said an Assault Rifle had a maximum range of 300m with 650 rounds per minute and puts out 2472 ft·lb of force, which according to a Joules calculator thing I Googled meant 3351.5 Joules but the Standard Plasma Rifle uses about 100-150 Kilavolts of enrgy per shot, whatever that means...

Wow, you're trying to do math and don't even know what the units are. Maybe you should go and learn what you're doing before attempting this...

That 3,351 Joules is equal to 3.35 kilojoules. 150 kilovolts amperes is equal to 150 kilojoules, given that we don't see plasma guns one hitting MC in the game and we have a real life example to go by with the assault rifles I'm going to have to call BS on the halo wiki's number there.

Ediin wrote:

Norade wrote:You did compare an Imperial Assassin to MC, or are you going to just pretend you never said that? Also, I'd love to see your proof that MC is stronger than an ork. Remember to provide some quotes.

Look about 05:50 in that video.

So you're taking dialogue over actual evidence... Here's a hint, you don't listen to soldiers telling stories to gauge how good somebody is. Instead you actually watch how that person does in combat. This scene does nothing to help your case.

Care to explain exactly how MC is better than a veteran guardsman? You keep making claims, but I'm not seeing a lot of proof. I can't prove a negative so you're going to need to start showing some evidence.

I'm not sure that a veteran guadsman would be able to fight aliens in cc with a sword, pilot spaceships, or save the world.

You're not sure, othere fore it's opinion. Besides piloting a space ship has no stats on the tabletop, and MC saved the world with help from spaceships, an AI, as well as large numbers of ODST and whatever other forces had garrisoned Earth prior to the attack. He played a large role, but so have Gaunt and his ghosts and noby is trying to give them a better than SM statline.

You mean the cyberneticaly enhanced old guy who is legendary for coming back from he brink of death...

You mean the specially selected uberhuman who was trained for 15 years and is the most skilled warrior in the Halo universe?

Except that compared to 40k the chief isn't so uber, his armor doesn't stop 7.62 rounds, he stands out like a sore thumb wherever he goes, and a single shot from a guardsman that doesn't like him would end him.

It takes 18 rounds of 7.62 x 51mm ammo to down a Spartan's shields and kill him. 18 rounds of that ammo type will impart a total of 63 kilojoules of energy into a spartan giving us a low end estimate for how little it takes to drop a Spartan II. IG armor can withstand hits from lasguns and be fine, MC's shields would be dropped by a single shot and that may be enough energy to kill him outright in a single shot.

Stop it. Your lasgun ''maths'' are still fail. It's a novel, fiction. Not a technical guide to the 40k-verse. Authors make weapons OTT to add drama. That does not mean
a lasgun is a grenade launcher. The author you quoted was exaggerating. It's a normal thing that all sci-fi writers do.

You're the failure here, we analyze things in sci-fi based on what we see them do and if two cases disagree on power we either say that they were different weapons or look for the circumstances that would make one weapon fail to behave as predicted. Your method says we can't use anything because you dislike it. Guess which method actually gets results.

Failure to do Science wrote:

I wrote this.

Norade wrote:You know what, I had a huge rebuttal typed up, but it would be wasted on people who argue that weapons that don't exist in real life are written as to strong by the authors that are inventing them.

And you wrote this. You keep avoiding my arguments and I think it wont be long until you start trolling too.

You still failed and your post was hardly worth my time, you offer no evidence of anything and continue to claim that novels exaggerate the effects of made up weapons.

Alright. Lets take the Space Wolf example again:

Ragnar raised his pistol and sent a bullet through one of the Ogryn's eyes. Still it did not fall, but reached out for him with his one remaining hand.

Taken from the prolouge of Ragnar's Claw.

So, assuming your maths are right, that ogryn took a RPG blast to the head, and survived. In addition, it was already bleeding to death from having its hand cut off.




Approximately that.

I dont think that the ogryn would survive.

So, it's your word vs. William King's word. And I think both of you are wrong.

William King wanted to add a little bit extra awesome into his novel and made an Ogryn that's really hard to kill.

You based your maths on other quotes which were written by authors which wanted to add extra awesome into their novel.

Never ever have I found cases were someone is shot by a bolter and gets turned into a fleshy soup by the blast.

What really should have happened is:

Ragnar raised his pistol and sent a bullet through one of the ogryn's eyes. It died.

But that would not have been much fun.

Instead, we have to use the most real pice of information we can: the rules.

The rules prove my point: bolters have a low armor-piercing capability, but if they get through the armour they can cause much damage to internal organs by exploding.
Not uberexploding, because bolters do not use blast templates. BOLTERS ARE NOT MISSILE LAUNCHERS! And, missile launchers are not mini-nukes.

I have a video that proves my point. I have quotes that prove my point. The only rather far-fetched argument you could come uo with is that the Ogryn is a
abhuman who is immensely tough. Abhuman or not, a RPG to the head is pretty overkill. So dont pull the same trick you did when I presented the Ork example.

The RPG is not a made-up wepon. And it was you who said that bolters are like RPGs.

I'm confused how you would compare an RPG-7 to a Boltgun...

The Boltgun shell actually has only a small fraction of the explosive capabilities of an RPG-7...

It's a bullet with a micro-grenade in it, nothing more, nothing less.


Edit: Here's a good example.

If you really seem to think that a Boltgun compares to an RPG-7

Imagine firing an RPG-7 at an Abrams battle tank, and then firing that at a LandSpeeder
Then fire the Boltgun at each, do you really think there's a comparison?

There's a reason why the Boltgun is "only" Strength 4.

and by the way, all this argument seems to be is fans of the chief versus people who dislike Halo or haven't read the Halo books...

In my opinion, I think the Chief is amazing, sure he shouldn't be in the league of say, Marneus Calgar, but this is a Proposed Rules section, why are we getting so hepped up over a rule that somebody wanted almost as a joke, and just for fun too. If it was me making rules for the Chief, he'd be have a 2+ invul just for being the awesomest person ever. It's all in everyone's opinion, all this is something made up so we can't really accurately gauge either of them against each other, alright?

Ediin wrote:Alright. Lets take the Space Wolf example again:

Ragnar raised his pistol and sent a bullet through one of the Ogryn's eyes. Still it did not fall, but reached out for him with his one remaining hand.

Taken from the prolouge of Ragnar's Claw.

So, assuming your maths are right, that ogryn took a RPG blast to the head, and survived. In addition, it was already bleeding to death from having its hand cut off.




Approximately that.

I dont think that the ogryn would survive.

So, it's your word vs. William King's word. And I think both of you are wrong.

William King wanted to add a little bit extra awesome into his novel and made an Ogryn that's really hard to kill.

You based your maths on other quotes which were written by authors which wanted to add extra awesome into their novel.

Never ever have I found cases were someone is shot by a bolter and gets turned into a fleshy soup by the blast.

What really should have happened is:

Ragnar raised his pistol and sent a bullet through one of the ogryn's eyes. It died.

But that would not have been much fun.

Instead, we have to use the most real pice of information we can: the rules.

The rules prove my point: bolters have a low armor-piercing capability, but if they get through the armour they can cause much damage to internal organs by exploding.
Not uberexploding, because bolters do not use blast templates. BOLTERS ARE NOT MISSILE LAUNCHERS! And, missile launchers are not mini-nukes.

I have a video that proves my point. I have quotes that prove my point. The only rather far-fetched argument you could come uo with is that the Ogryn is a
abhuman who is immensely tough. Abhuman or not, a RPG to the head is pretty overkill. So dont pull the same trick you did when I presented the Ork example.

The RPG is not a made-up wepon. And it was you who said that bolters are like RPGs.

I did exaggerate a bit in saying that a bolter is equal to an RPG-7. However I'm not off by as much as you might think. First off we know that the Space Marines have been described as using coin sized grenades before, now if we assume that coin is a rather large one like a quarter we get a maximum volume of 0.809 cubic centimeters, assuming that the explosive masses twice that of TNT we get a total explosive mass of 2.69 grams. A weak grenade like the RGD-5 explodes with 506 joules of energy so doing the basic math we get 188 joules per gram. Scaling from a diagram of a bolter round and replacing the solid core with explosives to show an explosive bolter round we get a volume of 1.77 cubic centimeters using the same mass as before we get 5.88 grams of explosive exploding with an energy of 1,105 kilojoules. The antipersonnel warhead for the RPG-7 carries 210 grams of explosive, assuming RDX, a common military explosive that roughly equates to 1,550 kilojoules of explosive. I was only off by 1.4x and that was just to give an example. You might argue that I should have compared the anti-tank rounds of the RPG-7, but all I said was that a bolter round was roughly equal to an RPG-7 round and I was pretty damned close.

In your example the bolter round used was solid core explaining why the Orgrin still had a head. Most bolter rounds would be solid core, but it's easier to who what they can do when you instead look at an explosive filled round. Otherwise we need to get into figuring out a velocity and mass for a round, and then we get to deal with penetration... It's too much math even for me so I chose to show an explosive round instead to save work, we know that such rounds exist so there should be no issue.

gray "who capitalizes proper names" spark wrote:I'm confused how you would compare an RPG-7 to a Boltgun...

The Boltgun shell actually has only a small fraction of the explosive capabilities of an RPG-7...

It's a bullet with a micro-grenade in it, nothing more, nothing less.


Edit: Here's a good example.

If you really seem to think that a Boltgun compares to an RPG-7

Imagine firing an RPG-7 at an Abrams battle tank, and then firing that at a LandSpeeder
Then fire the Boltgun at each, do you really think there's a comparison?

There's a reason why the Boltgun is "only" Strength 4.

and by the way, all this argument seems to be is fans of the chief versus people who dislike Halo or haven't read the Halo books...

In my opinion, I think the Chief is amazing, sure he shouldn't be in the league of say, Marneus Calgar, but this is a Proposed Rules section, why are we getting so hepped up over a rule that somebody wanted almost as a joke, and just for fun too. If it was me making rules for the Chief, he'd be have a 2+ invul just for being the awesomest person ever. It's all in everyone's opinion, all this is something made up so we can't really accurately gauge either of them against each other, alright?

You're ignoring the fact that an RPG-7 also has antipersonnel rounds which were the ones I was referring to when making the comparison, you're also forgetting that at one point in the fluff the Space Marines used coin sized grenades that exploded with the force of a full sized grenade.

Also, RPG-7's have a very tough time with Abrams and need to pick weak spots on the vehicle to do much of anything. A US report on the matter can be found here. I would bet a bolter would be able to inflict some damage, ie glancing hits, to the rear armor of an M1 Abrams. If we take an Abrams to be 10 - 11 - 11 armor, which is likely generous by a wide margin given the leap in weapons needed to effect AV 10 and AV11, then a bolter could harm it rather easily.

As for liking or dislike Halo, I actually enjoy the series and have read the first three books and rather enjoy Nylund's work. I'm just not fooled by the hype. The UNSC is run by idiots as evidence by the over complex Scorpion tank with its quad tracked design, or the Warthog being the only troop mover for the UNSC.

MC is nothing special, he's a guy who can go down to a grenade and a handful of 7.62 x 51mm rounds. He's faster and stronger than you and I, but so are many imperial guardsmen and he's nowhere near the level of a Space Marine. As for why I care how people stat him for their games, I guess I shouldn't, but it's too fun smacking down un-researched opinions and ludicrous claims.

Well, I may as well throw myself in for what I think is fun debate. Here are my stats for the good old MC, and a bit of justification.
WS - 2 Frankly, I don't think MC is good in combat, and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.
BS - 4 I think I'm being generous here, but I have heard of MC being a pretty good sniper, and I think it is fair to play that up a little.
S - 3 This is unforunately a grey area. He's definately stronger than a gaurdsmen, but weaker than an Astartes. I wouldn't think this would come up much anyway, considering that he's really a ranged character. Also, in gameplay, I see he takes more than one hit, usualy about three, to kill enemies. I think this stat is the most appropriate.
T - 3 (4) I can see MC as around the same toughness as a marine, for the sake of game purposes, but i also see him being killed a relic blade.
W - 2 I justify this with him being a special character. Who ever heard of a special character with one wound?
I - 3 Not as fast as an Astartes, but again, close combat isn't his theatre.
A - 1 See above
Ld - 8 He may not be afraid of the Covenant, or even the Flood, but this is Warhammer 40K. Daemons made of nightmares that look like a cross between John Carpenters The Thing and a Great White Shark push themselves through reality from hell and their very appearance can drive men mad. MC is NOT fearless in this setting.
Sv - 4+ To me, MC's armour is about as good as scout armor. Keep in mind that SM armour is made of crushed and super-compressed diamond.
Special rules
ATSKNF - Come on, we don't want him running off the board!
5+ Inv. - His shields.
I'm not even going to bother with weapons, although a do postulate that a lasgun is similar to a plasma rifle.

Just my $0.02

Bolters use .75 calibre rounds, so I dont think that they have the size of a quarter dollar.

Ediin wrote:Bolters use .75 calibre rounds, so I dont think that they have the size of a quarter dollar.

A quarter is only 24.7mm by 1.75mm, that's not a huge amount of volume and I already did the math showing this. A bolter is 18.75mm in width and far longer so it's easy to see how they can fit a relatively large amount of explosive in there. This explosive is super powerful, as we know from the Astartes using coin sized grenades. It's really not rocket science.

I had talked about this with a friend of mine, and there really is already armies in place to use, without creating custom rules.

Codex Space marines offer the perfect tools for making Space Marines. Spartan IIs can be represented by full fledged Astartes and Spartan IIIs can be represented by scouts (going from the perspective of the books...not the massive Retcon-Heroing they are doing with Reach). Keep the Space Marines free of excessive flair and dangly whatnots (no capes, robes, etc.) make every one have a helmet.

With minor green stuff work and shaving, you can have sm helmets with the glass face plates. I wouldn't take them as anything other than vanilla marines (so no Calgar or Vulkan shenenagins) 0-1 Devestators, 1-2 Tactical squads, 0-4 Scout squads (no telion ofcourse, Spartan IIIs are the budget Spartans. Cheaper equipment, using conscripted orphaned survivors of the Covenant's genocidal campaign, they usually die to a man. I'd give them all the Camo Cloaks to represent the Semi Powered Intrusion armor's 'stealth shading' camo pattern).

Take a captain as the HQ, maybe a power weapon. 0-1 Sternguard, 0-1 Vanguard. No Dreadnoughts. Everything else is wide open.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, no librarians, or Master of The Forge I suppose.

Captain Solon wrote:
this seems kinda lame to be honest.. kind of like SM, but more expensive and terrible in comparison.

Why didn't I realize this before? This is an in universe definition of Spartans.