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I can't believe I'm actually debating this.

Comparing spartans to space marines is like the difference between throwing a bullet and shooting it. There is no way a spartan be played in the 40k rule system because they are simply not powerful enough. The difference between strength 3 and 4 is gigantic. Master Chief would be around a 3.5 strength. In universe, the spartans are insanly powerful and incredibly expensive to make. However, when brought to the 41st mellenia, they are just imperial guard storm troopers with a 3+ save. The universes are too different to compare. Yes I realized that I tried to stat them before saying I couldn't compare them.

Essentially, he is a SM captain...so just copy paste the stats. The shield sucks so the iron halo would work just fine.

brandon noble wrote:Essentially, he is a SM captain...so just copy paste the stats. The shield sucks so the iron halo would work just fine.

Umm...that just takes us back to the start So you think that Chiefy is WS6 BS5?

WS: 3 BS: 5 S: 3 T: 3(4) I: 4 W: 2 A: 2 LD: 10 SV 3+/5++

Weapons: bolt pistol, power sword, assault rifle (24" S:3 AP:5 assault 3)
Special rules: If at the end of a turn MC has 1 wound left, he will regenerate upto 2 wounds (to symbolise his shields coming back online)
MC may, if he chooses, may fire any weapon carried by the squad he is with instead of his own, the original model carrying the weapon may not fire this turn.

How about that?

CrazyThang wrote:I fail to see any of this rationale. Determination? Imperial Guardsmen are VERY determined, expecially Vets (you basically have to be in a universe were anything [rather, everything] would rather kill you then talk out your problems). Khorne beserkers on the other hand are probably not so much determined as driven into a combat frenzy by bloodlust. Not overwhelmed by WS4 opponents? Tell that to a Warlock, Banshee, or even a space marine. I don't really know of any videos where he displays his melee skills but I have not played Halo 3 so maybe they are all there? And a WS 3 person can't block? Just swing randomly and hope to kill first? I don't see this. Oh and he puts skill into the weapon in a very rare instance (specifically to block or parry another melee weapon) he never actually displays crazy combat prowess or he would be moving more, swinging more accurately, such and such.

Disclaimer:
I don't have anything against MC. I think he is a boring character and that's about it. What DOES bother me is how everyone assumes he is magically awesome and super killtastic. Seriously. Take a minute and think about Space Marines (for example) and compare MC to the universe. He would not even touch a SM in stats.

well, yes, I see the Khone Beserkers as having a rediculous amount of determination. most Orks seem to have an unwavering urge to fight and you see what happens when they get a Waaagh! Banner to wave about. these guys are tough and don't use "skill", for a normal Imperial Guardsman this is a suicidal way of fighting but how do you think 50man Infantry blobs fight? that's WS3, typically unable to apply real damage on his own so they try to overwhelm thier enemies but lack the strength to make thier efforts really count

and here's a video of Master Chief and a few Spartans doing thier thing. watch the second video for a brief sword fight and no more combat. to give these guys anything less than WS4 would be inappropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkp9AnIa6QQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz7Euqze3kQ
I suppose you can think of it like this, when they throw a Spartan into battle they win, when you throw multiple Spartans in they destroy enemies as fast as they can be encountered. so BS4 might even be too low, despite my previous choices.

now look 5minutes and 40 seconds into this video to see a Spartans strength, now what's a Space Marines lift capacity? heck, how heavy is a Space Marine? and some more Melee fighting in 9 minutes 30 seconds. thyat Spatan in tall, that enemy is taller, I'd say the height of a standard Ork Warboss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuXqJ4L5izs

by storyline in the Halo Universe, Master Chief has a very simple characteristic, luck. it has made sure that every time a kill shot could hit it will miss, every time the clock is about to run out he makes it in time, when he is fighting against an enemy he can't defeat on his own a capable ally will join the fight. this only happens because he does his best and he [is the best. by that I mean, Mater Chief really is the Best of the Best, there are millions of soldiers from Earth, he must be doing a lot to achiee what he has, he doesn't just save the World, he saves it again and again and again, HA! he saved the Universe. I still don't know if I'm getting my point across, but fluff-wise, but he is a ludicrously high class of warrior, the other soldeirs have skill, he has more. he has been in more dangerous situations than any Space Marine I've read about (which isn't many) with no allies but an A.I. unit in his helmet.

i have to agree that master cheif if not as strong or tough as a space marine is easily as skilled if not more so than the average marine. i'll try and give him a statline

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
5__ 4_ 4 3 3 4 2 10 3+/5+

maybe a special rule for shooting like this: Spartan helm: the master chief's targetting array in his helmet is so advanced that he can fire at full auto and still be on target. the helm allows him to reroll missed to hit rolls in shooting

and a close quarters rule like this: knife fighter: master chief has advanced combat knife training and years of experience, his hits in close combat are rending on a 5 or 6

give him eternal warrior because he is lucky as hell and fleet because the dude can really jump

hron13 wrote:i have to agree that master cheif if not as strong or tough as a space marine is easily as skilled if not more so than the average marine. i'll try and give him a statline

WS BS S T W I A LD SV
5__ 4_ 4 3 3 4 2 10 3+/5+

maybe a special rule for shooting like this: Spartan helm: the master chief's targetting array in his helmet is so advanced that he can fire at full auto and still be on target. the helm allows him to reroll missed to hit rolls in shooting

and a close quarters rule like this: knife fighter: master chief has advanced combat knife training and years of experience, his hits in close combat are rending on a 5 or 6

give him eternal warrior because he is lucky as hell and fleet because the dude can really jump

Why? Why? Why?

Bye. I think I'm done here.

Valkyrie wrote:

brandon noble wrote:Essentially, he is a SM captain...so just copy paste the stats. The shield sucks so the iron halo would work just fine.

Umm...that just takes us back to the start So you think that Chiefy is WS6 BS5?

thats a WS5.

brandon noble wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:

brandon noble wrote:Essentially, he is a SM captain...so just copy paste the stats. The shield sucks so the iron halo would work just fine.

Umm...that just takes us back to the start So you think that Chiefy is WS6 BS5?

thats a WS5.

uh no, Captains are WS 6 BS 5, look at your space marine codex before posting...

This is the worst idea since American Idol.

mattosika wrote:This is the worst idea since American Idol.

It takes a lot of fail to beat American Idol.

And this... wait for it... wait for it...
*Skaa-boom*
WE HAVE A WINNER OF THE WORST IDEA!!!
DING DING DING
Seriously though, here is MC's statline.
00000000000
Special Rule: Suckage: He ded.

If you dont have anything serious to say, please be quiet.

Master Chief

Points: 80

WS BS S T W A I Ld Sv
4 4 4 3 2 2 4 10 4+/5++

Special Rules:

HUD- Master Chiefs helmet incorporates an advanced targetting system. He may re-roll ''to hit'' rolls when shooting.

Backstab- Master Chief is an expert in killing enemies with a single blow. His close-combat attacks have the ''Rending'' Special Rule.

Eternal Warrior- Master Chief is unnaturally lucky. He has the ''Eternal Warrior'' Special Rule.

Wargear

Assault Rifle- Range 24'' Strength 3 Ap 5 Assault 3

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

Power Sword.

So, he's not as hard as a marine, but a little more skilled. Just the way he should be.

Ediin, Excelent suggestion.

Ediin wrote:If you dont have anything serious to say, please be quiet.

Master Chief

Points: 80

WS BS S T W A I Ld Sv
4 4 4 3 2 2 4 10 4+/5++

Special Rules:

HUD- Master Chiefs helmet incorporates an advanced targetting system. He may re-roll ''to hit'' rolls when shooting.

Backstab- Master Chief is an expert in killing enemies with a single blow. His close-combat attacks have the ''Rending'' Special Rule.

Eternal Warrior- Master Chief is unnaturally lucky. He has the ''Eternal Warrior'' Special Rule.

Wargear

Assault Rifle- Range 24'' Strength 3 Ap 5 Assault 3

Frag Grenades

Krak Grenades

Power Sword.

So, he's not as hard as a marine, but a little more skilled. Just the way he should be.

How is MC more skilled than a Marine that trained harder than him and has been alive at least a century longer than he has? There is no mission that MC can do that a single member of the Astartes cannot do better.

Except that Chief saved the world. And I dont think that a single Tactical Marine could do that?
I admit that it's a game, but still. Ws 3 and Bs 3 doesn't work either. He's not an ordinary human.

Ediin wrote:Except that Chief saved the world. And I dont think that a single Tactical Marine could do that?
I admit that it's a game, but still. Ws 3 and Bs 3 doesn't work either. He's not an ordinary human.

Please read Brotherhood of the Snake where a single Marine saved a world from Dark Eldar without help from a fleet or a team of ODST special forces or anybody else for that matter. You're flatly wrong about the capabilities of Master Chief when compared to that of a member of the Astartes.

Also not all guardsmen are simple humans as well, and given that guardsmen from most worlds stand taller and broader than we do today even the physical stats may not stack up well for everybody's favorite Spartan. not to mention they far and away have better equipment. A lasgun has the same effect as a grenade on unarmored targets where as the Chief can be killed by small arms fire. An explosive cored bolter round is about equal to a round fired from an RPG-7 and a similar heavy bolter round is about equal to a TOW missile.

Honestly Master Chief should have stats like this:

Master Chief

Points: 10

WS:3 BS:3 S:3 T:2 W:2 I:3 A:1 Ld:10 Sv:5+/6++

Type: Infantry

Special Rules: IC, Eternal Warrior, Fearless

Wargear: Battle Rifle, Pistol, Frag Grenades

Battle Rifle: 24" S:2 AP:- Rapid Fire
Dual SMG's 12" S:2 AP:- Assault 4

May replace his Battle Rifle or pistol with any of the following:
Halo Missile Launcher: 36" S:5 AP:4 Heavy 2 .......... +3 points
Spartan Laser: 36" S:6 AP:4 Heavy 1 .................. +5 points

Norade wrote:A lasgun has the same effect as a grenade on unarmored targets where as the Chief can be killed by small arms fire. An explosive cored bolter round is about equal to a round fired from an RPG-7 and a similar heavy bolter round is about equal to a TOW missile.

........

Then I suppose that a Lascannon is equal to a nuke, right?

I think you're suffering from the ''WH40k weapons are 4w3zome'' syndrome.

But WS 3 and BS 3 is still too little, and he's still not an ordinary human.

And a Battle Rifle is S 2 to you? Sigh.

And a Spartan Laser is Strength 6? We're talking about the Laser that destroys a Scorpion tank in 2 shots.

Also, you wrote that he's Toughness 2. This deserves triple facepalm. Obviously Master Chief is a little tougher than a Grot.

I suppose he thinks Grunts are Toughness 1 swarm units?

really though, I'm getting Troll vibes

besides, we all know the statistical effectivness of any induvidual unit is lowered by the number of identical units. squads of soldiers in fiction are worth less than the sum of thier parts once you hit the 10 man mark.

Ediin wrote:

Norade wrote:A lasgun has the same effect as a grenade on unarmored targets where as the Chief can be killed by small arms fire. An explosive cored bolter round is about equal to a round fired from an RPG-7 and a similar heavy bolter round is about equal to a TOW missile.

........

Then I suppose that a Lascannon is equal to a nuke, right?

I think you're suffering from the ''WH40k weapons are 4w3zome'' syndrome.

But WS 3 and BS 3 is still too little, and he's still not an ordinary human.

And a Battle Rifle is S 2 to you? Sigh.

And a Spartan Laser is Strength 6? We're talking about the Laser that destroys a Scorpion tank in 2 shots.

Also, you wrote that he's Toughness 2. This deserves triple facepalm. Obviously Master Chief is a little tougher than a Grot.

You're suffering from the Halo is actually good syndrome and forgetting just what lasguns actually do to people in the fluff.

Rogue Trader compendium, page 145 wrote:

"Tarok slumped down behind the rock.

...


As the stones pattered to the ground, a Deathlight flashed the stunted bushes itno flame. Tarok sprang up and fired at the Brannath who had just given away his position. The man fell forward out of the bushes with a fist-wide, smoking hole punched through his body from front to back. Strange, thought Tarok, that there is no blood.

That thought almost cost him his life. He almost failed to notice the shadow sliding over the rocks behind and right of him. The rock glowed and began to melt as he dived away from the beam of the Deathlight. The Brannath was not quick enough with his second shot.

Then, on all sides of him, the air was shot through with the deadly bright rods of soldier-lightning.

...

They were watching through their magic, he knew - the same magic that made the Deathlight spit its soldier-lightning.

Math done by Connor MacLeod a very good source for numbers for what 40k weapons are capable of.

Connor MacLeod wrote:fist sized" hole in a humanoid body implies at least around 10-12 cm diameter area cauterized (the hole plus some of the surrounding tissue). "Through" the body implies it passes through roughly 20-25 cm or so of torso (depending on physique.) We know its cauterized due to the "lack of blood" and the "smoking hole".

Assuming a cylindrical hole given the dimensions above, the amount of tissue affected would be around 1.5-2.8 kg, including the cauterization of the tissues around the hole.

Conservative estimates should put tissue temp at a minimum of 200C, the water content in the body should be raised to a temp of 173C.
Assuming tissue temps reach 300-400 C at least, this corresponds to the water content in the body (factoring in the differences in specific heat) of between 256-340 C. The temp of a human body is roughly 37 degrees C. Given that, this means that tissue temp must be raised by at least 163 degrees, the body water content by 136 degrees (200 C cauterization.) At 300-400C, the increase is 263 and 219 C (300 C cauterization) and 363 and 303 C (400 C cauterization)

Given the specific heats above, this translates to an energy input of:

- 571 kilojoules per kg at 200 C cauterization

- 921 kilojoules per kg at 300 C cauterization

- 1.271 megajoules per kg at 400 C cauterization.

This works out to a "per shot" las-bolt range of at least 860 kilojoules to 1.9 megatjoules at least (1.5 kg) to 1.6-3.55 megajoules per shot (2.8 kg)

AS a side note, another enemy evidently uses a las-weapon to begin melting the stone Tarok was hiding behind. It looks more like a sustained event, and its not easy to get an EXACT size on the rock (or properties), but even if it were a fairly small rock (say half a foot in diameter) it would weigh at least a few kg. Assuming silicon like properties it could easily take 5-6 megajoules to melt, and the whole event could be no more than a couple seconds, providing a secondary confirmation of the magnitude of the firepower.

A lasgun shot produces at least 571 kilojoules worth of energy, by comparison a modern RGD-5 hand grenade filled with 110g of TNT produces only 506 kilojoules of energy. Master Chief can be killed by a pair of grenades and while the grenades in Halo are slightly more powerful having a confirmed kill ratio of 5m instead of only 3m for the RGD-5 that isn't a huge increase. Even assuming that ComL, the filler in a Halo grenade is 50% more powerful than the explosive used to fill modern grenades and knowing that Halo grenades use 190 grams versus 110 grams for the RGD-5 we only get an energy of 1,310 kilojoules. That means that it should take roughly three or four lasgun shots to kill MC and that is what we see.

My proposed stats actually make MC more survivable than he should be as he can take at least two shots from anything as I built him and as I have shown he should die from a few lasguns let alone a bolter or a krak missile.

As for the rest of the weapons they are harder to compare as the stats get very abstracted at the higher scales.

Lotet wrote:I suppose he thinks Grunts are Toughness 1 swarm units?

really though, I'm getting Troll vibes

besides, we all know the statistical effectivness of any induvidual unit is lowered by the number of identical units. squads of soldiers in fiction are worth less than the sum of thier parts once you hit the 10 man mark.

Care to do the math to prove a point? I did mine and showed that my stats for MC were generous based on 40k's fluff. I now expect you to do your own math or concede.

And in other novels, lasguns simply demostrate the effect of concentrating sunlight through a magnifying glass and shining it at an ant. Only at a larger scale, of course.

Which is exactly why novels are not considered to be accurate when describing the effects of weapons, as the author invariably adds a little drama and
sense of awe in their novels. In the Space Wolf novels, for example, Ragnar Blackmane blocks blows from power weapons with his chainsword more than one time,
even though the Power Weapons should cut right through. All to add a little more exitement and the feeling that the hero of the novel is more awesome than it seems.

Two things..

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weird idea. uncomfortable with it.

also, work with your spelling and grammar. it's below standard for this site. (in my English-nazi nature to say so.)

What kind of pistol, what kind of assault rifle? what is their strength, what are they like?

this seems kinda lame to be honest.. kind of like SM, but more expensive and terrible in comparison.
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Above: A post bashing someones spelling and grammar while starting 7 of 8 sentences with lower case letters.

There are also quite a few sentence fragments throughout the post. Irony is wonderful.



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The books say that spartans are better trained soldiers in super armor, but yet that super armor still doesn't stand up to covenant weapons
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Their shielding however, does stand up to covenant weapons to an extent. Also, the evil aliens in that series use only plasma based weaponry.

If I recall correctly, even terminator armor is bypassed by AP 2 plasma round.

Ediin wrote:And in other novels, lasguns simply demostrate the effect of concentrating sunlight through a magnifying glass and shining it at an ant. Only at a larger scale, of course.

Which is exactly why novels are not considered to be accurate when describing the effects of weapons, as the author invariably adds a little drama and
sense of awe in their novels. In the Space Wolf novels, for example, Ragnar Blackmane blocks blows from power weapons with his chainsword more than one time,
even though the Power Weapons should cut right through. All to add a little more exitement and the feeling that the hero of the novel is more awesome than it seems.

There are different models of lasgun, and among those different settings, one thing we do have in abundance is quotes showing how powerful they are. I picked only a single example to post, but I can drown you in quotes if you make me. The quotes I can provide will show a good median lasgun power a great deal higher than that of a modern rifle.

As for the authors intent, unless we outright see that the story is a legend, as most stories about chapter heroes like Ragnar usually are then the numbers are good. Authors intent doesn't come into play when speaking about how powerful something is.

There are different models of lasgun, and among those different settings, one thing we do have in abundance is quotes showing how powerful they are. I picked only a single example to post, but I can drown you in quotes if you make me. The quotes I can provide will show a good median lasgun power a great deal higher than that of a modern rifle.

Equally I can drown you in quotes of Orks and Genestealers needing lots of hits before going down due to lasfire.

However, we're getting pretty Off-Topic.

Master Chief is better than a Guardsman, but he does not have the bio-enginereed body of a Space Marine.

Can we at least agree on that?

Ediin wrote:

There are different models of lasgun, and among those different settings, one thing we do have in abundance is quotes showing how powerful they are. I picked only a single example to post, but I can drown you in quotes if you make me. The quotes I can provide will show a good median lasgun power a great deal higher than that of a modern rifle.

Equally I can drown you in quotes of Orks and Genestealers needing lots of hits before going down due to lasfire.

However, we're getting pretty Off-Topic.

Master Chief is better than a Guardsman, but he does not have the bio-enginereed body of a Space Marine.

Can we at least agree on that?

Those being equal to the effects of a lasgun on the human body how? Master Chief is not an Ork, nor is he a Tyranid, both of which have shown to be very, very tough in the past. Also we use rocks or human flesh to calculate firepower as they have known properties, Ork's are made of spores and can survive having heads cut off and put on new bodies and Tyranids are layers of living chittin with a bio gel layer in their least forms.

As for Master Chief being better than a guardsman, I honestly don't think he is. For all of his augments and his armor, he's no better than a guardsman like 'Try Again' Bragg when it comes to strength an toughness. Master Chief comes from a world that has Machine guns with a 30m effective range and where the flood, a race of zombies threatened an entire galaxy, and a hero that is threatened by 7.62mm gunfire. In 40k we have common men standing 2m tall, bolters that fire shells that are equal to any grenade, armor able to shrug off direct hits from what would be considered modern antitank weapons, and heroes that couldn't be killed by a guy firing 7.62 rounds even if he started naked.

For all he's worth, there is only enough room for 1,000,000 heroes, and it appears all those slots are taken by Space Marines.

Norade wrote:

Lotet wrote:I suppose he thinks Grunts are Toughness 1 swarm units?

really though, I'm getting Troll vibes

besides, we all know the statistical effectivness of any induvidual unit is lowered by the number of identical units. squads of soldiers in fiction are worth less than the sum of thier parts once you hit the 10 man mark.

Care to do the math to prove a point? I did mine and showed that my stats for MC were generous based on 40k's fluff. I now expect you to do your own math or concede.

math? I was just joking, I'll say this though, It doesn't matter how many times you hit Master Chief because he'll either,
a) kill you
b) avoid you and his shield will recharge, making your prior shots meaningless

he's done it a million times, I don't see why he wouldn't do it a million more times

Lotet wrote:

Norade wrote:

Lotet wrote:I suppose he thinks Grunts are Toughness 1 swarm units?

really though, I'm getting Troll vibes

besides, we all know the statistical effectivness of any induvidual unit is lowered by the number of identical units. squads of soldiers in fiction are worth less than the sum of thier parts once you hit the 10 man mark.

Care to do the math to prove a point? I did mine and showed that my stats for MC were generous based on 40k's fluff. I now expect you to do your own math or concede.

math? I was just joking, I'll say this though, It doesn't matter how many times you hit Master Chief because he'll either,
a) kill you
b) avoid you and his shield will recharge, making your prior shots meaningless

he's done it a million times, I don't see why he wouldn't do it a million more times

A) His weapons aren't even capable to giving a Space Marine pause, and he can only kill so many guardsman.

B) He can't do that against a competent force that can drop his shields in a single shot and who have better training and gear than he does.

Given that Imperial Assassins go through non-space-marine enhancement procedures, similar to Spartans, MC would have str 4 and toughness 4.

He is an expert shot, possibly better than a marine. BS 4 or 5.

In close combat, not so much. Given that close combat veteran guardsmen have WS4, and space marines also have WS4, Master Chief would be in the WS4 range for sure.

Wounds, compared to a SM's stats, 1. But given the whole gameplay/fluff problems, it would not be unreasonable at all to give him hero wounds, like an imperial guard heroic officer. Wounds 3. 4 would be "god of war" status that a Spartan just couldn't bulk up to.

Initiative, he is more than human fast, but not hardcore close combat level. 4, maybe 5 if you're being generous.

Attacks, if a heroic IG officer can have 3 attacks then so can MC. Comparing him to a basic or assault SM doesn't work out as there is no solid consistency between fluff and various rules.

Leadership, probably ld9. He's brave, but not fanatic-leader-level.

Save is power armor. Definitely stronger than stormtrooper armor or firewarrior armor or orks with big armor scraps. Closer to SoB power armor than SM, but 3+ nonetheless. Invuln is likely better than an IG sergeant's collar mounted refractor field. 4+ would be correct.

WS:4 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:3 I:5 A:3 ld:9 Sv:3+/4++

So basically a SM captain with slight changes.

@ Norade

I find that your primary argument to Chief being bad is a novel. Novels are FICTION. The author deliberately makes weapons more powerful than they really are.
Your ''maths'' are based on fiction, which means your maths are pretty wrong.

Those being equal to the effects of a lasgun on the human body how? Master Chief is not an Ork, nor is he a Tyranid, both of which have shown to be very, very tough in the past. Also we use rocks or human flesh to calculate firepower as they have known properties, Ork's are made of spores and can survive having heads cut off and put on new bodies and Tyranids are layers of living chittin with a bio gel layer in their least forms.

But a lasgun is more powerful than a grenade, right? I think even a Genestealer would die from a grenade to the face.

And one more thing: you said that Boltgun shells are equal to RPG-7 rockets. Then why do they not use a blast template in-game?
Why are there dozens of novels that describe normal mutants getting shot in the head by a bolter and surviving? I'm sure that a RPG would turn a mutant into jelly.

Because novels are wrong. I'm off to work, ciao.