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Made in ca
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






Nurglitch wrote:
It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


What units are you refering to?
   
Made in gb
Flower Picking Eldar Youth



England

Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.



Marines have always been popular. Especially among younger 40k players or people who are just starting out. I remember back in 2015/2016 my local GW did loads of introduction days (mainly for kids or teens looking to get into the hobby) and they would always be building, painting and playing with Space Marines. So even then GW was trying to entice people into 40k with marine's. To say GW was fine and was expanding and producing a ton of models and games is just plainly incorrect (depending on how far back you go that is). They had one game which was thriving 40k and one game which was hemorrhaging them money. So much money in fact they had to completely re-make that game.

Yes they have bet a lot on space marines and that has worked out. Massively in fact. For you as someone who is a customer (I presume you also play the game) you should give a solitary damn about GW's profits. No profits no game.
   
Made in us
Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles






New/good rules inspire me to play, new/good models inspire me to build, and lack of both inspires me to work on my backlog. Helps me bring my EC to 2k despite my sonic dreads being squatted.
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.




And at that time was the company expanding into multiple mediums. I’ve been playing for a long time as well. And never have I been more happy with GW. Marvel comics, giant action figures, soon to be launched TV shows. Space marine did this, because the larger part of GW gaming community think space marines are cool.
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Yeah it certainly seems that the marine fans outnumber those who are sick of marines.

That doesn't make the POV of people who are sick of marines invalid though, and neither does the profits of GW growing or shrinking.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




dogboy311 wrote:
Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.




And at that time was the company expanding into multiple mediums. I’ve been playing for a long time as well. And never have I been more happy with GW. Marvel comics, giant action figures, soon to be launched TV shows. Space marine did this, because the larger part of GW gaming community think space marines are cool.

I've read the marvel comics, and it's much, much worse than anything published back in the Warhammer Monthly days. As far as I see it, you're just making more arguments against marines, since they fuel more marines tie-ins. Which is fine, but maybe start warning any person wanting to play 40k that if they're not marine players, they're here to be punching bags for them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/26 18:04:50


 
   
Made in ca
Fresh-Faced New User




Cronch wrote:
dogboy311 wrote:
Cronch wrote:
Here's the thing though, there WAS a time when 40k wasn't all marines all the time. And GW was fine, and GW was expanding, and GW was producing a ton of models and games. Marines always played a big part in 40k advertising, but they used to be just another army in the game. It's GW's own fault for betting everything on marines. And you know what? As a customer, I do NOT give a single solitary damn about GW profits. Not my business to care how they will do it.




And at that time was the company expanding into multiple mediums. I’ve been playing for a long time as well. And never have I been more happy with GW. Marvel comics, giant action figures, soon to be launched TV shows. Space marine did this, because the larger part of GW gaming community think space marines are cool.

I've read the marvel comics, and it's much, much worse than anything published back in the Warhammer Monthly days. As far as I see it, you're just making more arguments against marines, since they fuel more marines tie-ins. Which is fine, but maybe start warning any person wanting to play 40k that if they're not marine players, they're here to be punching bags for them, so they better bite down, cause that marine train is going in dry.



So you don’t like the comic,, that doesn’t meant it’s not good, you read it with a perspective of it was gonna suck already. Lol. Then go and use the back in my day argument,
So why don’t you just sell your models and find a new game or hobby. Like if consider playing a table top miniature game, the same as non consensual sex, Maybe you really need a too quit.
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I think it's fair to say that people who go in wanting to play Xenos factions should be aware that they will be 4th class gamers, behind Chaos in Second class, Other Imperial in Third class and Marines in First class.

Then they can make an informed decision about which faction to play and whether it will bother them. It might be that few people are bothered by being less valued customers. It doesn't bother me any more, because I have adjusted my expectations, but I can see why it still bothers people who expect or wish for more equal treatment.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Nurglitch wrote:
It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


what is wierd about that, they forced every sw/ba/da/dw player who in the past would have bought one book, to buy two books. If it was possible they would have split it in to three.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
It's weird to see GW trying to wrap all the variations on Space Marines in one book and then split off single units from other books into their own armies.


What units are you refering to?


My guess would be Rubrics and Plague Marines so far, with an eye toward Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in the future.

2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Da Boss wrote:
I think it's fair to say that people who go in wanting to play Xenos factions should be aware that they will be 4th class gamers, behind Chaos in Second class, Other Imperial in Third class and Marines in First class.

Then they can make an informed decision about which faction to play and whether it will bother them. It might be that few people are bothered by being less valued customers. It doesn't bother me any more, because I have adjusted my expectations, but I can see why it still bothers people who expect or wish for more equal treatment.


40k thrives on the perception that those players *aren't* second-class customers. If they straight up said "the faction you like is an afterthought" they'd lose customers.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight






No the comic is rather bad and has some really bad lore elements that are just terrible.
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Hecaton wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
I think it's fair to say that people who go in wanting to play Xenos factions should be aware that they will be 4th class gamers, behind Chaos in Second class, Other Imperial in Third class and Marines in First class.

Then they can make an informed decision about which faction to play and whether it will bother them. It might be that few people are bothered by being less valued customers. It doesn't bother me any more, because I have adjusted my expectations, but I can see why it still bothers people who expect or wish for more equal treatment.


40k thrives on the perception that those players *aren't* second-class customers. If they straight up said "the faction you like is an afterthought" they'd lose customers.


Yeah I agree, to a certain extent GW relies on deceiving people interested in Xenos factions into believing they'll be treated in a comparable way to other factions when in fact they will receive far fewer model and rule updates and almost no attention in novels except as punching bags for space marines.

I think a lot of players kind of do that too, because they want to encourage more Xenos players because there are not enough of them. Probably we should be telling people to expect less from the game if you are playing Xenos because the majority of players want to have a Marine power fantasy and for marines to get more attention, as we see in these threads.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Let's do a thought experiment:

Suppose for a moment that every army was equally popular - and let's suppose there were 10 different armies / model ranges and each range had 10 different model kits for sale. Essentially, we're talking about 100 different kits, with there being some variance in the popularity of kits within a given army. By and large, if these are equally popular (i.e. selling equally well) then GW needs to be producing roughly equal quantities of 100 different kits and also dividing the marketing efforts across 10 different model ranges to keep them going. GW would make a certain amount of money in this situation.

The calculus that I'm sure GW is doing is recognizing that they can make more money (maybe substantially more), while still producing 100 different kits, by making one model range sell vastly more and thus take advantage of economies of scale in production and allow for a concentration of marketing resources around the most iconic "easy to sell" range. This is course is space marines. If space marines are 50%+ of the revenue (I have no idea what it is, just guessing), then the more of these that can be sold at lower and lower marginal production costs, the greater the return. Plus, they are the vehicle for bringing in new players, by and large.

As for the non-marines: the worst thing that can happen is over producing quantities of a good that don't sell. You're spending all this money on design, production, shipping, warehousing, etc. and if you can't sell through a production run it can be a big drain on profitability. The less risky approach is to under produce and be fairly sure the product will sell through. You might lose profits on the back end (i.e. if it turns out there is more demand than produce available), but at least your more certain of hitting your profit target

Take these two considerations together: GW likely realizes that marines need, at least in theory, non-marine armies to fight order to sell the setting and IP that marines symbolize. Marines fighting the filthy xenos and all of that. But this does mean that non-marine factions are getting, intentionally, less love than the poster-boys of the game, because that's how the profitability goals work out.

It's not a particularly great situation - but I think it's the reality we all have to live with, for better or worse.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/02/27 17:13:10


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Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

Privateer Press managed to do what you describe for a while. They had simultaneous updates for all factions and they maintained 8 main factions and a variety of smaller factions.

But eventually the SKU bloat got to be too much, and it was too difficult for shops to both display all the available minis and keep a stable supply of them (in Europe at least). GW have similar problems but they are possibly less acute because of so much being focused on one faction.

And GW are certainly doing better than PP, for all that I preferred the PP method of doing things. Often things that are customer friendly are less successful.

   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Take these two considerations together: GW likely realizes that marines need, at least in theory, non-marine armies to fight order to sell the setting and IP that marines symbolize. Marines fighting the filthy xenos and all of that. But this does mean that non-marine factions are getting, intentionally, less love than the poster-boys of the game, because that's how the profitability goals work out.

But is it really true? If marine rules are different enough codex to codex, producing different ways of playing, then you don't really need to play vs orks to have a different expiriance. If my lets say BT army, is different from a DA one,a SW one and BA one, then all 4 of us could play vs each other and have difference games each time. We don't really need an army, specially one spcecialised to kill marines specifically to have fun. Of course selling non marines can be good for GW, just to plug holes between marine and AoS books, specially when the armies are historically important to w40k. I don't see GW squating orks or IG anytime soon, but I don't think there is a have to behind it all. GW could give good updates, which they clearly don't considering the DG and necron book, to marines, and still have a working company with good sells.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Da Boss wrote:
Privateer Press managed to do what you describe for a while. They had simultaneous updates for all factions and they maintained 8 main factions and a variety of smaller factions.

But eventually the SKU bloat got to be too much, and it was too difficult for shops to both display all the available minis and keep a stable supply of them (in Europe at least). GW have similar problems but they are possibly less acute because of so much being focused on one faction.

And GW are certainly doing better than PP, for all that I preferred the PP method of doing things. Often things that are customer friendly are less successful.

GW moved a LOT of kits direct only. That's also why most new kits build two units , or two variants of a unit at least.
And PP died not because of SKU bloat, but because of very stupid distribution choices (good luck trying to get restock of ANYTHING if your store is not in the US) and new edition launch mismanaged so completely it rivals AoS launch.

Anyway, moral of the story- if your friends want to get into 40k with not-marines, stop them, it'll save their dignity and wallets. Let marines play other marines, just as GW intended.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/27 17:50:57


 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





 Da Boss wrote:
Privateer Press managed to do what you describe for a while. They had simultaneous updates for all factions and they maintained 8 main factions and a variety of smaller factions.

But eventually the SKU bloat got to be too much, and it was too difficult for shops to both display all the available minis and keep a stable supply of them (in Europe at least). GW have similar problems but they are possibly less acute because of so much being focused on one faction.

And GW are certainly doing better than PP, for all that I preferred the PP method of doing things. Often things that are customer friendly are less successful.


PP are doing badly because of terrible mismanagement, not because of their SKU bloat (though that was an issue). I would actually argue that their changes to their release structure in Mk3 is far, far worse than what they were doing. For the year or two so I played Mk3 I never saw people getting excited over the "theme wave" style of release having a CID then a release as they did over the grouped releases for everyone at once, but I could talk for days about how bad Mk3 Warmahordes was managed.

As for the topic at hand, I don't have an issue with GW releasing too many Marines, its what makes them their money. I have an issue with them half assing the rules however. It feels like they're just shoving kits out the door and not really bothering about making the game fun or interesting. The rules team seems to be under the impression that more book keeping = more strategic depth. They even added what effectively is a Book Keeping Phase to the game. I don't play 40k for tournament level strategic depth because GW are incapable of making that game. I'd rather GW stuck to their strengths and made the game fun.


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Cronch wrote:

Anyway, moral of the story- if your friends want to get into 40k with not-marines, stop them, it'll save their dignity and wallets. Let marines play other marines, just as GW intended.


Or you could just recommend that non-marines - be they xenos, Guard, SoB, Admech, Chaos etc just fight each other. That'd save their dignity as well AND still part them from their $$$.

But as a Necron player here in 9th? Sure, I'm annoyed that my Monolith got made a LoW & has no defensive special rules. But I'm not living in any fear of the SM codex, or its supplements, & I'm not threatened by ongoing SM releases.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/27 18:07:51


 
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I'd just make it clear that non-Marines are second class by design and let people pick what they want with full understanding. Like you can explain the differences in the number of releases, model support, support in the fiction and how you might have to wait a long time for your rules to be updated and when they are there is a reasonably high chance the designer doing it won't care about the project very much.

If people aren't bothered by all of that then they might well enjoy collecting, painting and playing non-Marine factions, but I think it's honest to let them know what it's going to be like.

I enjoy things a lot more since I have lowered my expectations and don't expect anything other than this from GW, I'm not annoyed about releases or whatever any more.

   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Lincolnton, N.C.

 AngryAngel80 wrote:
I can appreciate that feeling of something being off with the current edition. Though I'll need see how it goes or what the inevitable 10th will be like in like a year when it happens.


^ This. 10th will be out in 2022 probably 2024 will be 11th, and so on and so on, and I'm burned out chasing rulebooks, codexes, the new 'must have' units, etc.

Marines play a large part of that. Primarius has been a big load of 'meh' for me. (Hey some people like them, more power to them, love what you love, just not for me.)
I haven't had FUN, PLAYING the game in years though, 8th and 9th have been just bad. I miss templates, I miss simple Force Org charts of an army being 1 HQ, 2-6 Troops, 0-3 Elite, FA, and Heavy. (Basically I miss 3rd edition.)

This formation, that detachment, this special thingie, etc. Is not only confusing but takes the fun out of making a balanced list and is more the playground of spammers and WAAC.

Right now, I'm also happy with my Sisters of Battle collection, I'm happy with my Chaos, there's a few things I kinda want but don't really need. I have an 'nearly' all unpainted Space Marine army with some cool bear motifs I planned on doing, but I've ran out of drive to finish it, and really thinking about selling it if I can task myself to photograph it all and wash my hands of it.

Then there's the fact that X-wing, Gaslands, Dropzone, and Frostgrave are more fun and inspiring to do stuff with. X-wing and Gaslands especially so because unlike 40K there's a a thriving community of X-wing players here where I live, Gaslands is growing, annnnnnd.... there's no one left near me that PLAYS 40K.

Anyway that's my 2 cents of rambling.

My beloved 40K armies:
Children of Stirba
Order of Saint Pan Thera


DA:80S++G+M++B++IPw40K(3)00/re-D+++A++/eWD233R---T(M)DM+ 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

At the extremes, tourney organizers could encourage non-Marine players to attend the tourney maybe with a monetary incentive.
In this way, Marine players would have more attendees to push around. Rant over.

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Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Im honestly still just curious about that sisters of battle claim. Whered they say it was the best selling kit?

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'd believe it, only because you can make 3x units out of the box. It comes with four of each special weapon, two heavy weapons (which you can use for Retributors if you combine two boxes), four combi-weapons, so many heads, and two giant banners/etc. You could probably make a decent-sized sister's army just out of that box.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Nurglitch wrote:
I'd believe it, only because you can make 3x units out of the box. It comes with four of each special weapon, two heavy weapons (which you can use for Retributors if you combine two boxes), four combi-weapons, so many heads, and two giant banners/etc. You could probably make a decent-sized sister's army just out of that box.

Four of each special weapon and four combi-weapons?

*looks at contents of CSM and Chaos Terminators sprues*
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

The battle sister box is basically how every troop box should be. Lots of options and variety coupled with an additional auxiliary infantry box.
   
Made in nl
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

I liked that kit.

   
Made in us
Sister Vastly Superior





though oddly enough the heavy weapon/backpacks in the sob box is different from the Retributor box, square/round peg/holes to be just enough of an donkey-cave to make it harder to mix.

It is a shame that the only way to get the sister with the flamethrower and burnt corpse was the launch battleforce that only came with 1.

"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost" 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Mezmorki wrote:
The calculus that I'm sure GW is doing is recognizing that they can make more money (maybe substantially more), while still producing 100 different kits, by making one model range sell vastly more and thus take advantage of economies of scale in production and allow for a concentration of marketing resources around the most iconic "easy to sell" range. This is course is space marines. If space marines are 50%+ of the revenue (I have no idea what it is, just guessing), then the more of these that can be sold at lower and lower marginal production costs, the greater the return. Plus, they are the vehicle for bringing in new players, by and large.


There's no economy of scale advantage in favoring some kits over others, though.

If you have to do the R&D and mold-making on 100 kits, it doesn't matter if they all sell equally or if one kit sells hundreds of thousands and another sells a hundred copies; your sunk cost is the same. And GW doesn't realistically take a hit on stocking poorly-sold items, because those are all direct-only and manufactured in limited production runs, often with significant time between runs.

If GW were making Marines in plastic and other factions in resin then I'd totally agree, because with resin the economies of scale favor low sales and with plastic they favor high sales. But if everything's plastic (or headed in that direction), then GW has no reason to prefer if one mold is getting shoved in the machine more often than others.

I'd wager it's just a simple short-term focus on supporting the model line that sells and ignoring the ones that don't. GW's shown, multiple times now, that they don't understand this feedback loop, and seem genuinely surprised every time an unpopular faction gets new releases and suddenly becomes popular.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/03/01 04:43:56


   
Made in ch
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
I'd believe it, only because you can make 3x units out of the box. It comes with four of each special weapon, two heavy weapons (which you can use for Retributors if you combine two boxes), four combi-weapons, so many heads, and two giant banners/etc. You could probably make a decent-sized sister's army just out of that box.

Four of each special weapon and four combi-weapons?

*looks at contents of CSM and Chaos Terminators sprues*

As a fellow CSM player i feel like this iron warrior after getting told of by that loyalist scum.

Spoiler:


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
 
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