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Hey guys.

Tankhammers: Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. If the attack hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds and the bearer is slain..its a close combat weapon. What if i use Goffs and get a 6? Goff has exploding 6's in close combat and would thus give me a second hit. But according to this weapon profile you only get one hit. Which rule take priority?


Same for Bomb Squigs:This weapon cannot target units that can FLY. After making an attack with this weapon, the bearer is slain. its a ranged weapon. What if i roll a 6 and get dakka dakka which is an automatic hit and an extra hit roll? which rule takes priority?

in both cases you get only one hit according to the weapons profile, but clan culture and clan rule wise, i get an extra hit by rolling a 6 when i hit.

I would argue it says "if the attack hits..." not "for each attack that hits...", so it's only d3 mortal wounds still.

I've always played the bomb squigs considering clan rules to have priority, so 6s generate extra shots. This because the rule doesn't say that the model shoots twice (being slain it couldn't), but simply that an extra shot is generated. The same shot has the effect of two ranged attacks.

Same with tankhammers, they make a single attack but a 6 makes that attack counts as they were two.

It's not like the models shoot/fight twice or make more than a single attack with the specific weapon, those ranged/melee attacks simply get an additional dice to roll. Basically the player gets an additional dice to the pool, that's how I've always interpretated the rule.

 Blackie wrote:
I've always played the bomb squigs considering clan rules to have priority, so 6s generate extra shots. This because the rule doesn't say that the model shoots twice (being slain it couldn't), but simply that an extra shot is generated. The same shot has the effect of two ranged attacks.

Same with tankhammers, they make a single attack but a 6 makes that attack counts as they were two.

It's not like the models shoot/fight twice or make more than a single attack with the specific weapon, those ranged/melee attacks simply get an additional dice to roll. Basically the player gets an additional dice to the pool, that's how I've always interpretated the rule.

this is how i would play it aswell, but i was uncertain if thats how it actually were.


Is there a rule somewhere that explains which rule take priority? Because it feels like its one of those: according to me" rules so i dont have anything i can direct my opponent asking to in the rules books.

the only thing i could say is, what you're telling me, that ones faction rules takes predence over the models rule, and its just an extra die roll not necessarily the model itself shooting twice.

Kinda like when you roll D6 for the grenade amount, i doubt its because you actually look in to your grenade bag and only find 4 grenades by rolling a 4 in the amount roll. and next time you find 6 grenades or only 2.

You cant make a second for tankhammers, because you can only make a single attack. As for the bomb squigs, you cant make a second attack, because the bearer is slain. there is no general priority for one rule over another, there are some cases in the FAQ, and rare rules section, like morale priority, manifesting priority, attacks priority. But none of these apply here.

 p5freak wrote:
You cant make a second for tankhammers, because you can only make a single attack. As for the bomb squigs, you cant make a second attack, because the bearer is slain. there is no general priority for one rule over another, there are some cases in the FAQ, and rare rules section, like morale priority, manifesting priority, attacks priority. But none of these apply here.

yes but dakka dakka and exploding 6s for Goffs is an extra hit, not an extra attack.

A single attack can have several hits like a gorkanauts smash ability giving 3 hits per attack.

So i would assume that the extra hit i gain from dakka dakka still gives me that extra hit from a single attack the bomb squig makes, and the same for tank hammers.

But as I pointed out earlier, you don't get damage for every hit you cause.
You get damage if the attack hits.

Imagine a skeet shooting contest, you get a point if you hit the pigeon. Doesn't matter if you hit it with one pellet or two or six.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But as I pointed out earlier, you don't get damage for every hit you cause.
You get damage if the attack hits.

Imagine a skeet shooting contest, you get a point if you hit the pigeon. Doesn't matter if you hit it with one pellet or two or six.

but this isnt real life.

my dakka dakka says i get a guaranteed hit and an extra hit roll, and the bomb squig says it dies after its "attack" not its hit. and given one attack can have several hits it all checks up.

Which if i had realized before i wouldnt need this thread.

huh. nice.

So dakka dakka gives extra hits for the bomb squig, and the exploding 6 hits for Goffs gives extra hits to tankhammers.

I won't lie this seems really bad way to play. You get extra attacks on a literal suicide weapon? I am certain if grots had the ability to do 2d3 MWs to a target, they wouldn't be the price point they currently are. That would be silly.

The point is you don't actually make a second attack, the second attack is auto generated.

Semantics. the point is you are taking a cheap chaff unit, and giving it the ABILITY to do 2d3 mortal wounds. That cannot be working as intended.

but thats the wording.

You have one attack, but attacks can generate several hits (like the Goff smash profile). Otherwise i could say that exploding Goff 6s for gorkanauts shouldnt generate 1 extra attack when using the Smash version, that grants 3 hits per attack. But you dont get that because goff dont generate attacks, it generates hits.

I could turn it around and say it cant possibly be correct, that dakka dakka, a rule all orks have to generate extra hits (theres literally not a single ork unit that dont get dakka dakka) in the shooting phase, somehow doesnt work for bomb squigs.Yes they die, but they just make a bigger explosion then.

And goff exploding 6s somehow shouldnt work because they use a tank hammer. Why should these weapons be excempted from receiving the rule?

They die after make an attack, they dont die after making their hit. And the extra hit on a 6, is tied to the attack.

Like if you use a kustom mega kannon (the Mek Gunz one) and have 3 wounds left and get 4 hit rolls, then i roll 3x 1s (which causes mortal wounds to me) and a 6. I essentially die since i take 3 mortal wounds, but i still rolled a 6 which generates an extra hit which still gets fired.

Its not entirely the same, but its a little bit in the same alley.


They are also not chaff units, they are elite units. They are tankbustas, not Boyz. unless my understanding of chaff is different from others, which it might be. i consider chaff infantry troop choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I won't lie this seems really bad way to play. You get extra attacks on a literal suicide weapon? I am certain if grots had the ability to do 2d3 MWs to a target, they wouldn't be the price point they currently are. That would be silly.

?? its not a grot though, its a 10 point suicide squig bomb tied to a tankbusta unit that you can have 2 of per 5 tankbustas.

Goffs
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack with a melee weapon made by a model with this kultur, immediately make an additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.

Tankhammer
Make a single hit roll when attacking with this weapon. If it hits, inflict D3 mortal wounds on the target, then remove the bearer.

You cant make an additional hit roll when the bearer is removed.

 p5freak wrote:

Goffs
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack with a melee weapon made by a model with this kultur, immediately make an additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.

Tankhammer
Make a single hit roll when attacking with this weapon. If it hits, inflict D3 mortal wounds on the target, then remove the bearer.

You cant make an additional hit roll when the bearer is removed.

that is incorrect. it says attack not hit roll.

Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. If the attack hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds and the bearer is slain. your data is incorrect.

Did you take it from Battlescribe? Battlescribe still says a gargantuan squiggoth makes D6 mortal wounds on a +2 to ALL units in engagement range with it on a charge, when it should only do D6 MW to a single unit. battlescribe is not a reliable source.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: I also went and checked the codex it self, and it states, you make a single attack as well, not a single hit.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Semantics. the point is you are taking a cheap chaff unit, and giving it the ABILITY to do 2d3 mortal wounds. That cannot be working as intended.

This is clearly intended IMHO as tankbustas are supposed to be a typical glass cannon unit, and the chaff unit isn't cheap at all. A tankbusta is 17ppm for a T4 1W 6+ model with BS5+. A tankhammer is 10 points. So 27ppm model with the stats of an ork boy is definitely the opposite of cheap chaff, it's actually very expensive.

And the ability to generate extra attack is goffs only, triggered on a 6 on that single attack, although re-rollable against vehicles if it doesn't it. Small odds in favor to get that extra attack and only if that utterly expensive but extremely squishy unit manages to reach combat, typically very unlikely.

I really don't see any issue here, in fact I think the whole combination should be (much) cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:


You cant make an additional hit roll when the bearer is removed.

"Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack with
a melee weapon made by a model with this kultur, immediately
make an additional hit roll against the same target using the
same weapon. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves
generate any further hit rolls."

It says immediately, so it's definitely before removing the bearer.

well. I asked Stevo-Six and he also said the same as we do Blackie.

Id say its pretty much a fact that this is intentional and we are understanding it entirely as its meant to be understood, and FezzikDaBullgryn and p5freak dont.

in fact its clever word play that it states that they die after the attack, not the hit. All of it is intentional to make sure we get the extra hit.

The words literally say, "you make a single attack with this weapon..." not sure how you can alter that. Can anyone provide proof of a weapon ability being superseded by a clan rule?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The words literally say, "you make a single attack with this weapon..." not sure how you can alter that. Can anyone provide proof of a weapon ability being superseded by a clan rule?

because an attack can have several hits and the dakka dakka hit is just an extra hit. That one attack, on a 6, grants two hits, one hit from the attack itself, and one hit from the dakka dakka. Whether the unit dies after having fired all its hits belonging to that attack, is irrelevant. The unit still gets two hits if it makes a dakka dakka, as a dakka is an extra hit belonging to that one attack profile.

If you have 2 attacks and make 2 dakka dakkas, all of which hits the enemy, then you have 4 successful hits, not 4 successful attacks. 2 attacks thus made 4 hits.


The weapon is not superseded by the clan rule, as the unit dies after that one single attack, not the single hit, and an attack can have several hits, because thats what dakka dakka does, it gives extra hits. In this case, Dakka dakka gives that one attack, two hits. Thats what it does. They work hand in hand. Same as Goff exploding sixes for tankhammers.

making a single attack means its attack profile is only 1 attack, on its attack profile, but that attack can still have two hits.

People need to understand that "attack" and "hit" is not the same and treating them as the same is incorrect.


Edited a lot of times because i accidentially write attacks when im meant to write hits and vice versa.

 p5freak wrote:

Goffs
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 for an attack with a melee weapon made by a model with this kultur, immediately make an additional hit roll against the same target using the same weapon. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.

Tankhammer
Make a single hit roll when attacking with this weapon. If it hits, inflict D3 mortal wounds on the target, then remove the bearer.

You cant make an additional hit roll when the bearer is removed.

The Goff ability says "Immediately" make an additional roll. You don't have an "immediately" for tankhammer. You're still resolving the initial attack, which has generated an additional hit roll.

Oh yea, Dakka! dakka! Dakka! also says immediately. So that covers it even more that the bomb squig also, immediately gets another hit roll.

Tankhammers don't work like normal weapons though, if the attack hits they cause mortal wounds.
It's not each hit causes multiple wounds.

That's the important aspect that I think you're missing, and why I used the example of skeet shooting.

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Tankhammers: Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. If the attack hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds and the bearer is slain..its a close combat weapon. What if i use Goffs and get a 6? Goff has exploding 6's in close combat and would thus give me a second hit. But according to this weapon profile you only get one hit. Which rule take priority?


Same for Bomb Squigs:This weapon cannot target units that can FLY. After making an attack with this weapon, the bearer is slain. its a ranged weapon. What if i roll a 6 and get dakka dakka which is an automatic hit and an extra hit roll? which rule takes priority?

in both cases you get only one hit according to the weapons profile, but clan culture and clan rule wise, i get an extra hit by rolling a 6 when i hit.

I'm fairly certain that DakkaDakkaDakka is worded as "if you roll a 6 to hit, make another attack with the weapon." in which case, the squig would already be dead, and it could not make another attack. As soon as you make the attack (i.e. start the Attack sequence) the squig is slain.

If Goffs is worded as "make another attack" then it would work identically. If it's "natural 6s to hit cause 2 hits" then you could hit 2 times on a 6 with a tankhammer.

the_scotsman wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Hey guys.

Tankhammers: Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. If the attack hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds and the bearer is slain..its a close combat weapon. What if i use Goffs and get a 6? Goff has exploding 6's in close combat and would thus give me a second hit. But according to this weapon profile you only get one hit. Which rule take priority?


Same for Bomb Squigs:This weapon cannot target units that can FLY. After making an attack with this weapon, the bearer is slain. its a ranged weapon. What if i roll a 6 and get dakka dakka which is an automatic hit and an extra hit roll? which rule takes priority?

in both cases you get only one hit according to the weapons profile, but clan culture and clan rule wise, i get an extra hit by rolling a 6 when i hit.

I'm fairly certain that DakkaDakkaDakka is worded as "if you roll a 6 to hit, make another attack with the weapon." in which case, the squig would already be dead, and it could not make another attack. As soon as you make the attack (i.e. start the Attack sequence) the squig is slain.

If Goffs is worded as "make another attack" then it would work identically. If it's "natural 6s to hit cause 2 hits" then you could hit 2 times on a 6 with a tankhammer.

nah. dakkadakka still grants another hit.

it dies after its attack, but an attack can have several hits. It also says it grants its hit immediately, so it still gets dakkadakka.

Both Goff and Dakka Dakka are worded more or less the same, in that they grant an extra hit IMMEDIATELY.

I understand that the way you nearly always make attacks with DakkaDakkaDakka is:

-Roll your initial hit roll
-Count the number of sixes
-add that number of extra dice to the hit roll pool

but technically, that's not actually how the rule is worded. The rule is worded such that you cause an additional attack to be generated by that weapon, immediately. You make your to-hit roll, then you make another attack. The sequencing of the rules for both bomb squigs and tankhammers kill the bearers the second they make the initial hit roll. They're not on the board to make another attack with the weapon "immediately."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess I personally wouldn't use these instances, but it does seem like enough of a gray area where if my opponent rolled a 6 for a bomb squig I'd let them make another roll. The wording of "immediately" and what "making an attack" is isn't perfectly clear.

the_scotsman wrote:
I understand that the way you nearly always make attacks with DakkaDakkaDakka is:

-Roll your initial hit roll
-Count the number of sixes
-add that number of extra dice to the hit roll pool

but technically, that's not actually how the rule is worded. The rule is worded such that you cause an additional attack to be generated by that weapon, immediately. You make your to-hit roll, then you make another attack. The sequencing of the rules for both bomb squigs and tankhammers kill the bearers the second they make the initial hit roll. They're not on the board to make another attack with the weapon "immediately."

you confuse "attack" with "hits", they are not the same.


the tankhammer and squig bombs die after their attack, but an attack can have several hits. Like the gorkanauts smash profile that gives 3 hits per attack.

The wording is correct and both tankhammer and squig bomb benefit from their exploding 6s.


If dakka dakka and Goffs gave another attack there would be a problem, because both the bomb squigs and tankhammers have only a SINGLE attack after which they die. But dakka dakka and goffs dont give extra attacks, but extra hits, and that hit makes their 1 single attack grant two hits.

It all checks out.

The tank hammer is worded "Make a single hit roll when attacking with this weapon. It it hits, inflict D3 mortal wounds on the target, then remove the bearer".

Those d3 mortal wounds will only trigger once.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

Spoiler:

The tank hammer is worded "Make a single hit roll when attacking with this weapon. It it hits, inflict D3 mortal wounds on the target, then remove the bearer".

Those d3 mortal wounds will only trigger once.

no it doesnt it says it makes a single attack.

Each time the bearer fights, it can only make a single attack with this weapon. If the attack hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds and the bearer is slain.

Edit:
but i have noticed that there might be a problem with the tankhammers as you say. It DOES say the target dies after making the attack hits". However, that attack can be split in to two hits given Goff exploding sixes hits immidiately.

I can see now that that might be a messy situation that can be understood either way.

I guess the tankhammers might be debatable after all.

But the bomb squig at least isnt referenced that way and thats not debatable.

Whoops, obviously it changed since the index.
Really, that just makes it even MORE clear. Rolling an additional hit roll doesn't trigger it multiple times - back to that skeet shooting.
If the shot hits the pigeon, you get a point. You have a special rule to hit with two pellets instead. Doesn't mean you get double points.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Whoops, obviously it changed since the index.
Really, that just makes it even MORE clear. Rolling an additional hit roll doesn't trigger it multiple times - back to that skeet shooting.
If the shot hits the pigeon, you get a point. You have a special rule to hit with two pellets instead. Doesn't mean you get double points.

i dont know what skeet shooting is.

I agree that tankhammers might actually be debatable but the bomb squigs are not.

This weapon cannot target units that can FLY. After making an attack with this weapon, the bearer is slain. it clearly states that the bomb squig dies after its attack, it doesnt die just because it hits. Thus i can still finish the attack with the second hit that.

It is a fact that an attack can have several hits, and thats what dakka dakkas are, hits, not attacks. It is a fact, that a dakka dakka hits immediately after the first attack hits, and it hits before the next attack is resolved.

Thus i would say it is factual, that you get another hit from your bomb squig, because it only dies after that one attack characteristic it has, is used, and its used after both hits have been made (if it made a 6 on its hit roll). In fact since starting the thread i asked a few ork youtubers who all agree, it seemingly is only non ork players that agree with how dakka dakka works.


If a unit has 2 attacks and makes 1x 6, you would also get 3 hits with dakka dakka. Its 2 attacks, 3 hits.Not 3 attacks because a dakka isnt an attack, its a hit that binds itself to the attack that caused it.

Bomb squigs are the same as any other ranged weapon, its simply dead after it has resolved that one attack.


I am, however, no longer sure about the tankhammers as they are worded differently. Because that thing doesnt die after the attack is resolved, it dies after the attack hits. If this means the 1 attack that makes its first hit, or it means both hits from an exploding 6 that are tied to that ONE attack (because again, one attack can have more than 1 hit) i do not know.


One important point is that all weapons are fired immediately at the same time on a unit, its not fired in turns. When a unit has two shots, its not two bullets fired off its just a specific amount. A big shoota is also not 3 bullets, its a hail of bullets represented by having 3 attacks. So when talking bomb squigs, its not that it explodes, survives and explodes again. thats not how it works. its just a more powerful explosion.

The intention of the goffs trait and dakkadakkadakka isn't to let a model fire/shoot twice, is to add an extra attack to the pool. It's not like the model shoots/fights again, it's just an extra attack with the same profile against the same target that the ork player has to resolve. The extra attacks from from DDD or the goffs trait belong to the same batch of regular attacks that were rolled a moment before.

It's just an abstraction, to represent a lucky shot that has the potential to cause additional damage.