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I've found myself craving a smaller-scale, zoomed-in version of 40k lately. I want to see fewer airplanes and redundant tanks and zoom in the flavor of a handful of squads or maybe even just the models in a single "squad." I know there are plenty of options out there, but which system do those with similar itches recommend?

* Combat Patrol sized games of normal 40k have been fun in the past, but I really get the impression that such a small game is pushing the limits of what 40k's rules can handle; a lot of stratagems and special abilities just seem a bit too spicy at such low points.

*Heralds of Ruin always looked really cool, but I'm not sure it was ever "completed" or how it holds up these days.

* Kill Team is fun, but I haven't kept up on the various expansions (commanders/elites/etc.) Getting back into seems a little intimidating, and I wouldn't mind something with slightly stronger rpg-ish elements (in terms of customizing your force/characters).

* I've also been eyeballing the version of Kill Team from the 4th (3rd?) edition main 40k rulebook where one player controls a "kill team" and the other guy controls a boss and a bunch of semi-automated minions. But that would probably require a bit of work to modernize if I didn't want to track down a bunch of 3rd edition codices.

Any thoughts?

Give 2nd ed 40k a go. That's more detailed and a smaller scale. The rules for necromunda were built out of them.

Have you tried Combat Patrol with this edition yet?

Necromunda is actually an enjoyable game to play. You can use most of the same models for your armies, or with a few tweaks, you can make them battle ready.

 Oborosen wrote:
Necromunda is actually an enjoyable game to play. You can use most of the same models for your armies, or with a few tweaks, you can make them battle ready.

My signature has a link to a partially-done conversion of the Necromunda rules to the 40k models.

Just play kill team a much better small sized game. In my expiriance 1500 and 1000pts of w40k are even more unbalanced then 2000pts.

Star breach I think would suit your needs. Free squad skrimish rules.

https://www.starbreach.com/

I think there is a rundown of the rules on some youtube clips if you want to have a look

Hellebore wrote:Give 2nd ed 40k a go. That's more detailed and a smaller scale. The rules for necromunda were built out of them.

Huh. There's a thought. I do have a second edition eldar 'dex laying around. Isn't it a bit clunky though? Not sure I'd be able to talk my friends into learning that particular rule set.

Blndmage wrote:Have you tried Combat Patrol with this edition yet?

As in just lower points games? I have! I found the games enjoyable, but certain units and abilities feel kind of out of place. Especially when using the tiny recommended board size. This is probably how I'll end up roping some of my friends into trying out the game.

Oborosen wrote:Necromunda is actually an enjoyable game to play. You can use most of the same models for your armies, or with a few tweaks, you can make them battle ready.

There's a thought. I do have the Necromunda tiles and a built box of Van Saar dudes. I just remember being sort of warned off of the game because the rules seemed to be spread out across so many books. What books would you recommend I invest in?

AnomanderRake wrote:

 Oborosen wrote:
Necromunda is actually an enjoyable game to play. You can use most of the same models for your armies, or with a few tweaks, you can make them battle ready.

My signature has a link to a partially-done conversion of the Necromunda rules to the 40k models.

I'll give it a look!

Karol wrote:Just play kill team a much better small sized game. In my expiriance 1500 and 1000pts of w40k are even more unbalanced then 2000pts.

Kill Team has been a lot of fun, but keeping track of all the floating to-hit modifiers and juggling all the specialist tactics can be a little overwhelming.

I've actually found that I prefer 1k and 1500 point games over 2k games. As long as no one is trying to build a cheesy, cutthroat list, the armies tend to be a bit more characterful. Players are forced to pick a gimmick or two and accept some weaknesses in their lists. At 2k, many armies can take enough units to cover their weaknesses and include lots of unit redundancy. But to each their own.

Gitdakka wrote:Star breach I think would suit your needs. Free squad skrimish rules.

https://www.starbreach.com/

I think there is a rundown of the rules on some youtube clips if you want to have a look

Interesting. I'll take a peek!

Caveat that this was 9th edition, but we found 500 point narrative games with sensible limits on what was brought gave a great experience and multiple games of an evening.

Kill Team is great just with the core rulebook, you don't need any of the expansions. Maybe the Annual for the other factions rules, but that's it.

Going to fly the flag for GrimDark Future Firefight - it's a free download, nothing to lose trying it

Wyldhunt wrote:

Blndmage wrote:Have you tried Combat Patrol with this edition yet?

As in just lower points games? I have! I found the games enjoyable, but certain units and abilities feel kind of out of place. Especially when using the tiny recommended board size. This is probably how I'll end up roping some of my friends into trying out the game.

Note that is the recommended minimum board size. You're free to use a larger board if you wish to do so.

For Necromunda the minimum you need is the rulebook and either the individual gang books or the combined gangs of the underhive book, noting that the combined gangs book is being superseded out of existence.

The trading post for campaigns is only in the combined Gangs book, however there is a usable summary table on yaktribe if you want to skip it. The rules for all the really necessary trading post kit is in the rulebook anyway, as are the rules for using the trading post in the rulebook campaign. It's just the actual list is in a totally separate book because GW. They are going to have to do something about that quite.soon as 5 put of the 6 gangs from the book will have their own "codexes" shortly.

Zone Raiders! Obviously not 40k, but a great ruleset designed to accommodate whatever sci-fi minis you want to use.

Definitely 2nd edition 40k. Super gritty, lots of flavor and relevant background material. A game that makes great stories.

Play with like-minded folks though. Doesn't have to be narrative, you can play it competetively too, just. . . Know what you're looking for.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hellebore wrote:Give 2nd ed 40k a go. That's more detailed and a smaller scale. The rules for necromunda were built out of them.

Huh. There's a thought. I do have a second edition eldar 'dex laying around. Isn't it a bit clunky though? Not sure I'd be able to talk my friends into learning that particular rule set.

I'm not sure what your definition of clunky is, but 9th ed 40k is probably the closest in design to it of all the succeeding editions.

It's best played with a smaller number of models than modern 40k and there's detail for a lot of different aspects that have been streamlined. But if you're approaching it as a skirmish game rather than a fullsized wargame it should be fine.

Just take lots of small units.


The most complicated parts are probably the melee and vehicles. But that's just because melee is different to the current form. you roll your attack dice and add the highest score to your WS. If you get higher than your target you hit them a number of times equal to the amount (win by 3 hit them 3 times). Then it's just modifiers added or subtracted to that roll and 6s and 1s (6s being bonus to WS and 1s being negatives due to fumble).

Vehicles have far more detailed rules and you hit different locations with different armour values. Penetration is Strength +wound dice+bonus dice (dependend on strength).

2nd ed is far more an RPG skirmish game with all the details and rules.

I played it when I was in my early teens and managed to understand it then, so I don't think any adults will have issues.

I’ve had fun with the Combat Patrol format. It can be helped by a cap on individual unit Power Level.

 Hellebore wrote:
Give 2nd ed 40k a go. That's more detailed and a smaller scale. The rules for necromunda were built out of them.

This^^

 Hellebore wrote:

Vehicles have far more detailed rules . . . .

This is honestly one of the coolest aspects of the game.

Another poster here was talking about the challenge of taking on swarm lists of 100+ Hormagaunts in 2nd Ed. I thought about how to deal with that with my Marines for a bit. . .

And then I remembered that two models could fire out of each door of a Rhino, and more models could fire out of the top. And Tanks could drive through infantry, potentially damaging them on the way. Oh, and each model in a squad could throw a Frag Grenade with a 2" diameter Blast, and some units could get Plasma Grenades. . .

So yeah, in 2nd Ed one way to fight against huge swarms of Hormagaunts was to load your Marines up in Rhinos, and just plow through them moving at 20" a turn, lobbing dozens of Grenades and blasting Flamethrowers out the side. Throw in a couple palsma grenades and some of them could expand the next turn. That's some epic action movie s*** right there, and some really fun tactics to have in your toolkit. That's the sort of thing 2nd is really good for. It gave you a lot of ingredients to provide for some creative problem solving.

 Hellebore wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hellebore wrote:Give 2nd ed 40k a go. That's more detailed and a smaller scale. The rules for necromunda were built out of them.

Huh. There's a thought. I do have a second edition eldar 'dex laying around. Isn't it a bit clunky though? Not sure I'd be able to talk my friends into learning that particular rule set.

The most complicated parts are probably the melee and vehicles. But that's just because melee is different to the current form. you roll your attack dice and add the highest score to your WS. If you get higher than your target you hit them a number of times equal to the amount (win by 3 hit them 3 times). Then it's just modifiers added or subtracted to that roll and 6s and 1s (6s being bonus to WS and 1s being negatives due to fumble).

Oh right. Like Shadow War Armageddon. If I still have the rules for it laying around, how would you rate SWA? I remember enjoying the league my FLGS did with it a while back, but is Necromunda basically the improved version of that?

What worked for me in 8E was along these lines:

1K points

1-2 HQ
0-2 Elite infantry + 0-1 Elite vehicle (unit)
2-4 Troops + 0-1 Dedicated transports
0-2 Fast Attack infantry + 0-1 Fast Attack vehicle (unit)
0-1 Heavy Support infantry + 0-1 Heavy Support vehicle (unit)

My current fave is KillTeam in Open Play (to circumvent needing battleforged teams) with all the books (Elites, Commenders, Annual 2019).

We don't use the battleforged tactics in our games, only the 6 global tactics and specialist tactics. Less cheesy IMO without those "shoot/fight twice" BS gotchas.

We also play on 4x4 foot table. Tiny tables are for tiny minds

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Hellebore wrote:Give 2nd ed 40k a go. That's more detailed and a smaller scale. The rules for necromunda were built out of them.

Huh. There's a thought. I do have a second edition eldar 'dex laying around. Isn't it a bit clunky though? Not sure I'd be able to talk my friends into learning that particular rule set.

The most complicated parts are probably the melee and vehicles. But that's just because melee is different to the current form. you roll your attack dice and add the highest score to your WS. If you get higher than your target you hit them a number of times equal to the amount (win by 3 hit them 3 times). Then it's just modifiers added or subtracted to that roll and 6s and 1s (6s being bonus to WS and 1s being negatives due to fumble).

Oh right. Like Shadow War Armageddon. If I still have the rules for it laying around, how would you rate SWA? I remember enjoying the league my FLGS did with it a while back, but is Necromunda basically the improved version of that?

I had completely missed SWA [Google's SWA, reads rules]. Yes it's based on the 2nd edition of necromunda (the current version is 3rd ed).

1st edition necromunda is based on 2nd ed 40k and uses the wider range of dice available and unique sustained fire dice (rather than that 1d3 of SWA).

In 2nd ed 40k a heavy bolter does d4 damage and a chainfist adds D20 to its penetration roll against vehicles for example.


So if you just want skirmish individuals then SWA would work well.

Otherwise 2nd ed 40k uses those same rules across squads (minus the xp and injury table) so is the same feel but with squads.

SWA was great, killteam was a real downgrade that managed to have both less flavour and take more time to play :(

Shame GW isn't int he business of pushing out fun little games as published with the fan made fixes and sensible unit choices and it would be a great game in a book.

My £0.02...

Pretty much as others have said -

2e 40k fits the bill perfectly, apart from the fact it's out of print, not all factions we have today were in 2e (or at least didn't have a full codex) and it had/needed a carp ton of cards and templates...

For something currently in print that is 40k, well, Kill Team is all that fits the bill.