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I always felt they needed to go more into the warped by Chaos aspect for special units. Why did Havocs get just a big chaingun, why not an ectoplasma cannon? There are only five demon engines in the main codex, two are the same kit, one is a flyer that is cool but a pain in the ass to use, one is older than I am and the other is a Start Collecting exclusive. IMO pretty much all the newer CSM stuff has been great design-wise and I hate it took them so long to develop models equal to the properly chaotic models we got in Dark Vengeance.

Chaos have lots of unique stuff. They've got the normal marines with archaic weaponry, sure, but they've also got stuff like possessed, greater possessed, obliterators and mutilators, and of course daemon engines. They've also got cultists.
They could be a very interesting army to play.

Maybe it's intended that they have only 1 wound. It makes Loyalist Space Marines seem way better, and they are intended as the protagonist faction. Chaos Space Marines are the primary Antagonist, but it's important that the Antagonist loses most of the time in an ongoing story or else it's no fun for the people who like the Protagonist (ie. the majority of the playerbase).
So maybe it's not stupidity or laziness, but design intent?

I suspect that when it does come, the units that still aren't available as stand alone kits will be released at last; it's an easy way for GW to make a release look bigger than it is.

Be'lakor is a wild card- he may be entirely a chaos daemon option. But either way, he will at least have an impact on the backdrop for CSM.

 Gert wrote:
I always felt they needed to go more into the warped by Chaos aspect for special units. Why did Havocs get just a big chaingun, why not an ectoplasma cannon? There are only five demon engines in the main codex, two are the same kit, one is a flyer that is cool but a pain in the ass to use, one is older than I am and the other is a Start Collecting exclusive. IMO pretty much all the newer CSM stuff has been great design-wise and I hate it took them so long to develop models equal to the properly chaotic models we got in Dark Vengeance.

I don't think giving them a crappier plasma cannon would really make them better. The chaingun is a more interesting choice when facing hordes and deathguard.

The Heldrake is a pain in the ass to use? How do you figure?

Wayniac wrote:They need someone with passion for CSM again, and rethink what makes them unique. Originally the whole "like marines but using archaic weaponry" was cool, back in 2nd edition. Now though? It doesn't cut the mustard anymore.

It does for some of us. Though we should get back our rules that make our basic infantry feel like actual veterans compared to typical loyalists. CSM should actually feel like the guys who almost brought the Imperium to its knees, and stuck the Emperor on life support.

Gert wrote:I always felt they needed to go more into the warped by Chaos aspect for special units. Why did Havocs get just a big chaingun, why not an ectoplasma cannon? There are only five demon engines in the main codex, two are the same kit, one is a flyer that is cool but a pain in the ass to use, one is older than I am and the other is a Start Collecting exclusive. IMO pretty much all the newer CSM stuff has been great design-wise and I hate it took them so long to develop models equal to the properly chaotic models we got in Dark Vengeance.

That stuff would be great for Black Legion and Word Bearers. Other Legions, not so much.

 Da Boss wrote:
Maybe it's intended that they have only 1 wound. ?

No GW stated CSM will go to W2 in the future. People just want it now as more of a feel good bandaid than anything. It likely wouldn't make CSM competitive until the book is redone. Maybe some PA tricks could be found, but...meh...

I also think that they should have had chaos embrace the warp-infused weaponry. So instead of using regular flamers, they use baleflamers. And so on. Since the chaos dark mech has no qualms about tinkering with/corrupting things, Chaos should have weird evolved weaponry that has a superficial resemblance to their old weapons, but are now more tainted. Instead it's still the old "mk1 version" sort of thing.

Wayniac wrote:
I also think that they should have had chaos embrace the warp-infused weaponry. So instead of using regular flamers, they use baleflamers. And so on. Since the chaos dark mech has no qualms about tinkering with/corrupting things, Chaos should have weird evolved weaponry that has a superficial resemblance to their old weapons, but are now more tainted. Instead it's still the old "mk1 version" sort of thing.

I mean there's a fair amount of that already. I'm just not sure that everything should be that way.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't think giving them a crappier plasma cannon would really make them better. The chaingun is a more interesting choice when facing hordes and deathguard.

The Heldrake is a pain in the ass to use? How do you figure?

It's a giant spiky dragon with a huge wingspan. I shy away from flyers for the most part but the Drake was a hard pass from me despite it being a huge spiky warpfire breathing dragon. I always thought the ectoplasma was just different rather than a direct plasma copy. Haven't used one in a while so that's on me if I'm mistaken.

The nice thing about the heldrake is that it is still obscurable as it is not AIRCRAFT while also being silly fast. It has not failed to do great things this edition for me - including ramming into Eradicators to squelch them for a turn.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

That stuff would be great for Black Legion and Word Bearers. Other Legions, not so much.

With the way GW has been writing the Legions since 6th I don't see it as much of a problem. Iron Warriors are consistently the demon engine Legion now and I can't see the God aligned powers denying patron blessings. I don't like the whole "these traitor Legions are traitor but don't worship Chaos" angle, on a small scale sure but you can't be Chaos Space Marines if you don't worship the Dark Gods. Personal warbands I think should be done anyway the owner wants but the baseline for Chaos warbands should be that they are Chaos lovers.

As for the OP, I wouldn't hold your breath, it'll be a while.

Chaos needs a lot of work. Too much demand out of the HQ slot is problem number one. No valid troop choice is another issue. When chaos marines get 2 wounds it is going to be nutts. 10 man units with 2 heavies will be incredible. I have no desire to play choas until this goes down though. I really do feel bad for people who can't just play another army till this change goes through.

bat702 wrote:

Also for all the people about to attack me with covid excuses, we are talking codex's, as in something that can be written, doesn't require any real actual labor..

Thats a hot take. Aside from the fact that writing *IS* labor, you still need proofreading, editing, painting, photography, layout, artwork, let alone printing and binding, shipping and logistics, let alone the sculpting, toolsetting, production, and packaging work needed for the associated new minis/product releases and repackaging, etc. Theres lots of labor that needs to be done. You'll also want some playtesting to be done before it goes to print too, yeah? Or are you going to settle for a phoned-in update where they just make it all up and hope nobody notices (again)?

Also, don't undersell the impact of a global container shortage that has resulted in months-long shipping delays, plus Brexit causing customs delays not just on outgoing product but on incoming raw material.

You don't need to be a "GW fanboi" to comprehend why things are slow, you just need to have a non-negative IQ.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thats a hot take. Aside from the fact that writing *IS* labor, you still need proofreading, editing, painting, photography, layout, artwork, let alone printing and binding, shipping and logistics, let alone the sculpting, toolsetting, production, and packaging work needed for the associated new minis/product releases and repackaging, etc. Theres lots of labor that needs to be done.

Careful...recognizing reality makes you a fan boy.

Wayniac wrote:
I also think that they should have had chaos embrace the warp-infused weaponry. So instead of using regular flamers, they use baleflamers. And so on. Since the chaos dark mech has no qualms about tinkering with/corrupting things, Chaos should have weird evolved weaponry that has a superficial resemblance to their old weapons, but are now more tainted. Instead it's still the old "mk1 version" sort of thing.

Not every legion is into chaos stuff tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
you can't be Chaos Space Marines if you don't worship the Dark Gods.

Thats just false and that belief comes from the name that GW gave to the traitor legions.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The Heldrake is a pain in the ass to use? How do you figure?

My experience (playing against it) is that it can be a royal PITA to place on the table due to its shape vs the terrain & sometimes other models.
Granted, GW has no control over what types of terrain we use or how dense we make a table, but my recent foe in our league was definitely hindered. And it wasn't because I even attempted to block his movement. And the table wasn't set up to screw anyone either. There were valid spaces where he simply couldn't put the base because the wings couldn't fit.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I also think that they should have had chaos embrace the warp-infused weaponry. So instead of using regular flamers, they use baleflamers. And so on. Since the chaos dark mech has no qualms about tinkering with/corrupting things, Chaos should have weird evolved weaponry that has a superficial resemblance to their old weapons, but are now more tainted. Instead it's still the old "mk1 version" sort of thing.

Not every legion is into chaos stuff tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
you can't be Chaos Space Marines if you don't worship the Dark Gods.

Thats just false and that belief comes from the name that GW gave to the traitor legions.

Yes yes renegade Space Marines exist, but honestly for those that are recently turned away from SM they can just use SM still.

And even then most Chaos SM even use Chaos Stuff. Whether it's splinter groups from said legion, warbands of said legion, or other such things to say that "not every legion" is pretty false.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gert wrote:
you can't be Chaos Space Marines if you don't worship the Dark Gods.

Thats just false and that belief comes from the name that GW gave to the traitor legions.

I think Gert was saying, in his opinion, Chaos Space Marines should worship Chaos; I don't think he was making any claims about canon.

What I'm saying is the army is Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines and they have been CSM since Rogue Trader. Traitor Legions are a sub-faction of CSM. If you want your warband of Night Lords to not worship the Dark Gods, that's cool. But just like Farsight not following the Greater Good, CSM that don't worship the Gods/demons/other warp entities should be the exception to the rule. At their height, the Legions were tens of thousands strong and that was with a relatively secure central point of power in their Primarch or Legion commander. The Legions aren't a united force anymore, and even though most of the traitor Primarchs are still around they play the Great Game and pit their sons against each other as much as their enemies. Warbands might unite under a strong leader, as with Abbadon, but even then they work against each other to get resources/revenge/power.

Wayniac wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

bat702 wrote:
With chaos worshippers, err Games-workshop teasing us with codex releases, how long do you think it will take for chaos-marines to get their extra wound, also grey-knights need their extra wound..

on a side note, I firmly believe the new Astra-militarum codex won't be released until atleast the end of 2022

Also for all the people about to attack me with covid excuses, we are talking codex's, as in something that can be written, doesn't require any real actual labor..

Hard for anyone to answer this question. My hope is: as long as it takes to write a good 9th edition Codex.

CSM are in a bad place right now. I don't think Covid is as relevant as power level compared to other armies. CSM need more than a second wound, they need to address this basic question of what kind of army they are supposed to be going forward.

Wrote up a critique of CSM ranged shooting compared with Deathwatch. TLDR: our best units are very inefficient compared to the lowest-tier loyalists. I could write other comparisons of tanks and melee units, the situation is a little less gloomy but still not optimistic.

My sense is GW will need some time to grapple with these issues before they can provide a thoughtful response, and that they don't want to get it wrong. So I'd guess early-2022 before we see a Codex.

You assume GW has any idea what they want CSM to be going forward. They haven't had any idea for Chaos since the 3.5 codex and everyone bitched and moaned then because they were finally good. It has been clear for years now that the design team are mostly marine fanboys and want to push the horsegak of Marines as the main players and everyone else as faceless NPCs they completely dominate.

Yeah, maybe.

My take is GW has goals for new releases that beyond being 'Marine fanboys' and have to do with customer acquisition and retention. The recent releases correspond with a renaissance with stock price, feels like they know what they're doing. But that's off-topic and not related to the faction question.

There's a difference between having a good Codex and knowing what kind of army you want a faction to be. For a long time, CSM were a mid-range melee army with some outstanding HQ options that could buff other units to carry a game. That's not really the case anymore, 9th edition has some constraints that make it very hard to establish synergy between the infantry / daemon engine / vehicle / shooty options available in the Codex. You have to really commit to one of those varieties of builds - to the exclusion of others - to get to a reliable list. One doesn't necessarily add to the other.

When I say GW needs to decide what kind of army they want CSM to be, there's a spectrum of challenges they need to address before anyone could say CSM are good at one aspect of the game. Off the top of my head:

- Spending CPs on detachments, and the composition of those detachments. We can't take a lot of HQs anymore without costing ourselves access to Stratagems. Obliterators are outclassed without MoS and Endless Cacophony. Daemon Engines are outclassed without Daemonforge and a Discolord. Infantry are outclassed without a Dark Apostle and / or Master of Possession. Small arms are terribly outclassed without a reroll aura.

- Access to Psychic Powers is limited to a few HQs, and the affect of most psychic powers are limited to a single unit. Aside from Warptime and Cursed Earth, there's not much benefit to the psychic phase anymore. While this is nothing new, it's compounded by the limitations on HQs.

- Our melee units get high numbers of attacks, but the current charge rules penalize you for multi-charge. You fail if you miss any unit. This is a recipe for overkill and limits the benefit of taking them in the first place. Extra attacks aren't work much when you don't get to use them.

- Our vehicles are completely outclassed compared with Loyalist / top-tier Xenos options. There's really not a reason to take them anymore, they're a tax on other units.

If GW released C:CSM tomorrow with 2W Marines and 3W Terminators, it would do nothing to solve these fundamental issues. CSM would be no better as a mid-range assault army. If they're not good at that, what kind of army should they be?

I think it will take them time to answer that and would love to see a more thoughtful response.

One of the abilities that I miss from older editions that I'd love to see return is the ability of HQs to take "blessings" from their God. It used to be that if you took a warlord and worshiped say, Slaneesh you could give him a blast master or doom siren. It let you customize your leader to better mesh with your army's theme.

Also, I'd love to see cult terminators become generic rather than restricted to specific legions and without resorting to having to take special detachments to bring them to the table. There's no reason for multi god worshiping legions not to be able to take plague terminators and/or beserker terminators in one detachment other than an arbitrary decison by GW.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
One of the abilities that I miss from older editions that I'd love to see return is the ability of HQs to take "blessings" from their God. It used to be that if you took a warlord and worshiped say, Slaneesh you could give him a blast master or doom siren. It let you customize your leader to better mesh with your army's theme.

Also, I'd love to see cult terminators become generic rather than restricted to specific legions and without resorting to having to take special detachments to bring them to the table. There's no reason for multi god worshiping legions not to be able to take plague terminators and/or beserker terminators in one detachment other than an arbitrary decison by GW.

Marks doing something again would be great. I don't agree with terminators though as you'll create an ecosystem where only one of them is desirable and it wouldn't be plain chaos termis.

GW could always go back to the default being "Chaos Undivided" as the mark that all CSM bear unless they choose otherwise. Then even the non-specifically marked terminators could have a special ability.

I wish I could find the effects each mark had from 3rd ed.. IIrc Khorne = +1 S, Nurgle = +1T, Slaneesh = +1 I and fearless. I don't recall the effects that undivided and Tzeench had.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
GW could always go back to the default being "Chaos Undivided" as the mark that all CSM bear unless they choose otherwise. Then even the non-specifically marked terminators could have a special ability.

I wish I could find the effects each mark had from 3rd ed.. IIrc Khorne = +1 S, Nurgle = +1T, Slaneesh = +1 I and fearless. I don't recall the effects that undivided and Tzeench had.

Tzeentch was a bonus to invuln saves, wasn't it? And Undivided, IIRC, was +1 LD

Honestly, CSM should thematically be the worst match up for Loyalist Space Marines. They should be awesome at butchering MEQ models.

I'd say give CSM a division between Veterans and the numerous new blood CSM that they recruit to replace losses. Sort of like the separation between blood claws and whatever the space wolf better Tac is. Make the newblood the same price and effectiveness as my Black Templar Crusaders. Make those theoretical Veteran Troop CSM better than Intercessors of either flavor depending on how they're built, but make them more expensive. I'd leave them with similar wargear to the current CSM kit but give the veterans rules that represent them being highly experienced warriors with long periods of combat behind them.

Have the Cult Marines start from that Vet stat line and focus on their specific aspects of warfare.

Make those Reaper Autocannons on Terminators AP-2 and D2. Let them keep their current four shots, as a anti elite counterpart to the Loyalist Assault Cannon. Let the plasma and Meltas be similar but drop a new kit for chosen with those Dark Mechanicus weaponry that a previous poster mentioned. Throw on things like the Kai Guns of old, ectoplasma guns, a native 2+ save but still retaining the 2 wounds so they're distinct from the new Primaris Vets that are dropping. Let them be multipart and hideous to fight.

Let Chaos show both extremes, their mass produced marines with no regard to a stable process, sure those guys won't last as long as a loyalist Primaris marine but thats where the old Vets come in and have them stand above the Primaris, perhaps at the cost of stability or just by costing more. 1 for 1, the various CSM Champions should be better than their primaris counterparts.

But this assumes GW would let anyone be better than Loyalist Space Marines. Even Custodes suffer in comparison to Bladeguard

I've been playing w 2W for the entirety of 9th for my Flawless Host...it was a surprisingly easy thing to do, like almost no effort at all.

Racerguy180 wrote:
I've been playing w 2W for the entirety of 9th for my Flawless Host...it was a surprisingly easy thing to do, like almost no effort at all.

Which is fine in games where your opponent is fine with that. Just like playing with 36" boltguns is fine when your opponent is fine with that... both are house rules, and not supported by the actual rules, but they're fine for friendly play.

Covid not an issue? Well I guess it isn't as GW doesn't do playtesting...

The biggest problem with making them 2W is they have to do the Primaris CSM first otherwise how do they retire all those old Astartes vehicles Chaos annoyingly uses? The legions have to be re-equipped in a SKU friendly but lore destroying way first!

Plus if they do update them they might be worried that loyalists would start using the Chaos list and painting everything blue...

 Octopoid wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
GW could always go back to the default being "Chaos Undivided" as the mark that all CSM bear unless they choose otherwise. Then even the non-specifically marked terminators could have a special ability.

I wish I could find the effects each mark had from 3rd ed.. IIrc Khorne = +1 S, Nurgle = +1T, Slaneesh = +1 I and fearless. I don't recall the effects that undivided and Tzeench had.

Tzeentch was a bonus to invuln saves, wasn't it? And Undivided, IIRC, was +1 LD

Yeah I think it was Khorne +1A (rather than S), Nurgle +1T, Slaanesh +1 I, Tzeentch 5++ or +1invul if it already had an invul (Rubric Marines also had +1 W), and Undivided was +1LD.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Covid not an issue? Well I guess it isn't as GW doesn't do playtesting...

The biggest problem with making them 2W is they have to do the Primaris CSM first otherwise how do they retire all those old Astartes vehicles Chaos annoyingly uses? The legions have to be re-equipped in a SKU friendly but lore destroying way first!

Plus if they do update them they might be worried that loyalists would start using the Chaos list and painting everything blue...

They don't have to do much of anything, they gave all Loyalist marines, Primaris and FIrstborn, 2 wounds. It's literally a case of we don't want to do this as an errata and will make you wait until the codex, but we're not going to expedite that codex either so have fun playing with obsolete rules. What they SHOULD have done was do a special update for CSM and GK (did deathwatch already get theirs?) to do the 2W update and points upgrade so those people don't have to wait while playing with 1Ws.

Also the issue with just house ruling 2 wounds is A) It's a house rule, your opponent can tell you they want to play with the rules as written and then you're SOL, and B) it's going to come with a points increase, so how much do you treat it as?