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the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How does murder con reroll all wounds? What warlord trait are you giving him? or Does that come from master archon?

Eternal Hatred, it's a core warlord trait for archons. "each time the warlord makes an attack, you may reroll the hit roll and wound roll."

It is absurdly powerful when combined with the AP-3 D3 djinn blade. People have been loving all over the succubus because she's got a bunch of relics and traits you can take and they're all pretty good, but almost every succubus build I've examined struggles to compete with the murder archon for the variety of targets he can take on even BEFORE he takes his once per game second swing. Obviously lelith and the cult of strife razorflail billion attacks succubus shred GEQ better than him, but nobody plays GEQ it's a heavy infantry edition and at a certain point you're just going 'look, I can spend the same amount of points as a squad of wyches and deal comparable damage to a squad of wyches, but it's just one model, wowee!'

Main reason for it is that +2 attacks and the fact that rerolling 5s to wound is a 55% chance to wound.

Precision blows+triptch whip succubus is better vs W2 MEQ (kills 5.65 on average vs 4.25) but worse vs gravis, terminators, and obviously vehicles by a huge margin, which is actually something worth examining because the murder archon pretty easily kills a medium vehicle with just his blast pistol shot and one swing.

Cursed Blade Stronkubus with strength drugs, dancers edge and quicksilver fighter is closer to the murder archon's numbers but still way worse vs W3 infantry (damage 2) and significantly worse vs tanks (8.6 vs 12.3 average damage vs T7 3+)

to compare the two D3 relic builds, blood glaive succubus with precision blows for the mortals and attack drugs deals 11.33 damage to gravis vs 12.35 for the murder archon.

the murder archon is almost always better against most targets than any succubus build, and again, to reiterate, NONE OF THOSE NUMBERS FACTOR IN THE FACT THAT ONCE PER GAME HE CAN JUST DECIDE TO DOUBLE IT if you paid the measly 15pts to make him a master archon. People are just whining about him and loving on the succubus because you have lots of slightly varied options on the succubus vs just one really really good choice and a bunch of mediocre seeming choices on the archon.

That is Drazars warlord trait too right? So you can't have it on both.

 Denegaar wrote:
Better for Wyches I guess. They hit easier than wound.

It's another incentive for the RSR. Archon can hand them hit rerolls while the succubus tools up the wound rolls.

 Denegaar wrote:
Better for Wyches I guess. They hit easier than wound.

It’s a 7/6 improvement no matter what the target number is.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.

Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?

WL trait, I have Sucs and Draz for Melee, Archon will be for other reasons unless I don't play Drazhar and 2 Sucs.

Comparing some basic wargear builds:

Archon with blast pistol and huskblade: 75pts. 3.22 damage vs W2 MEQ (capping the blast pistol damage out at 2, obviously)

SoB canoness with blessed blade and Inferno pistol: 65pts. 5.08 damage vs W2 MEQ

Succubus with Shardnet+impaler and strength drugs: 60pts. 3.84 damage vs w2 meq

Harlequin troupe master with embrace and fusion: 76pts. 4.22 damage vs W2 MEQ

Necron Lord with a Warscythe: 75pts. 2.66 damage vs W2 MEQ (oof, that's a D2 weapon too)

Admech Techpriest Dominus: 80pts, 2.66 damage vs W2 MEQ

Craftworld Autarch with Star Glaive: 80pts, 3.06 damage vs W2 MEQ

Genestealer Cults Primus: 85pts, 2.1 damage vs W2 MEQ LOL everything from this faction just randomly sucks so bad for no reason

Ork Warboss with power Klaw and Squig: 80pts, 4.11 damage vs W2 MEQ (note: has next to no defenses compared to most of the others rocking a 4++)

Space Marine captains, custode captains, chaos lords etc can be given better wargear, but they start at a higher point cost than you can even make the archon, and those extra points are obviously all going into offense, because defensively, there's not really much difference at all between the various average characters. They're mostly hanging at about 5W, T3 or T4, and they've got 4++ saves mostly. The archon's "2++ until it becomes a 4+6++" actually gives him better defenses against most weaponry than your average character.

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*

Murderarchon is just solid. Him and Drazhar give you two quasi-smash captains that you can just throw out without worrying overmuch about the consequences to the rest of your list.

I'd almost always want CP generation on a second archon if I was to take one. I don't think the Obsidian Blademaster is dreadful - but equally I'm not really convinced its worth bothering with. He's just sort of "there".

40k is partly so lethal because everyone takes the "do more damage" options - but this is due to GW consistently overvaluing toughness compared to offense. (I can understand why from a gameplay perspective - no one likes doing no damage in their turn - but still.)

In my experience Archons are untargetable for large portions of the game - and then if they die its not because a handful of trash units have broken their 2++, its because they've been hit in the face with loads of (usually high AP/damage) attacks. Which a 3+/minus 1 to hit/5+++ would do little to mitigate.

the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.

Yeah, it used let you hits in melee for Cult units.

Honestly, given how few models it affects to begin with, I feel they could easily have let it reroll 1s to wound for shooting as well (fire those Splinter Pistols, ladies!).

Anyway, I'm assuming they changed it to wounds because the Archon in a RSR detachment can affect Cult units, so this at least means their auras stack in those circumstances.

Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything.

the_scotsman wrote:

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*

I mean, you say that but the Canoness is basically the same cost as the Archon (5pts cheaper in fact), yet it's fine for her to have markedly better melee output.

I really don't think it would break the game if the Archon had a Blessed Blade equivalent that cost an extra 10 or so points say.


But if you think that's overpowered, I'm happy to settle for just having the old +1S Huskblade back. It's markedly worse than the Blessed Blade but at least it would be *something*.

 Xenomancers wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How does murder con reroll all wounds? What warlord trait are you giving him? or Does that come from master archon?

Eternal Hatred, it's a core warlord trait for archons. "each time the warlord makes an attack, you may reroll the hit roll and wound roll."

It is absurdly powerful when combined with the AP-3 D3 djinn blade. People have been loving all over the succubus because she's got a bunch of relics and traits you can take and they're all pretty good, but almost every succubus build I've examined struggles to compete with the murder archon for the variety of targets he can take on even BEFORE he takes his once per game second swing. Obviously lelith and the cult of strife razorflail billion attacks succubus shred GEQ better than him, but nobody plays GEQ it's a heavy infantry edition and at a certain point you're just going 'look, I can spend the same amount of points as a squad of wyches and deal comparable damage to a squad of wyches, but it's just one model, wowee!'

Main reason for it is that +2 attacks and the fact that rerolling 5s to wound is a 55% chance to wound.

Precision blows+triptch whip succubus is better vs W2 MEQ (kills 5.65 on average vs 4.25) but worse vs gravis, terminators, and obviously vehicles by a huge margin, which is actually something worth examining because the murder archon pretty easily kills a medium vehicle with just his blast pistol shot and one swing.

Cursed Blade Stronkubus with strength drugs, dancers edge and quicksilver fighter is closer to the murder archon's numbers but still way worse vs W3 infantry (damage 2) and significantly worse vs tanks (8.6 vs 12.3 average damage vs T7 3+)

to compare the two D3 relic builds, blood glaive succubus with precision blows for the mortals and attack drugs deals 11.33 damage to gravis vs 12.35 for the murder archon.

the murder archon is almost always better against most targets than any succubus build, and again, to reiterate, NONE OF THOSE NUMBERS FACTOR IN THE FACT THAT ONCE PER GAME HE CAN JUST DECIDE TO DOUBLE IT if you paid the measly 15pts to make him a master archon. People are just whining about him and loving on the succubus because you have lots of slightly varied options on the succubus vs just one really really good choice and a bunch of mediocre seeming choices on the archon.

That is Drazars warlord trait too right? So you can't have it on both.

Yeah, true, but it gives drazar rerolling 2+s to hit and wound vs most things, wheras it gives the archon rerolling 5s to wound vs most things. i'd rather have 2 characters that can both kill god than 1 who's mediocre and the other who I can never find a good enough target for him to fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:


40k is partly so lethal because everyone takes the "do more damage" options - but this is due to GW consistently overvaluing toughness compared to offense. (I can understand why from a gameplay perspective - no one likes doing no damage in their turn - but still.)

Yeah, it does always seem like the amount of extra damage you can get from relics+traits is so, so, so much more than the amount of defenses you can get. casually sextuple your damage with relic+trait+master archon or, oh look, +1 to your basic save and -1 to hit in melee!

Draz is fighting twice every turn though and has more staying power. I think I'd rather have it on Draz still. I can't imagine not having draz.

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.

Yeah, it used let you hits in melee for Cult units.

Honestly, given how few models it affects to begin with, I feel they could easily have let it reroll 1s to wound for shooting as well (fire those Splinter Pistols, ladies!).

Anyway, I'm assuming they changed it to wounds because the Archon in a RSR detachment can affect Cult units, so this at least means their auras stack in those circumstances.

Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything.

the_scotsman wrote:

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*

I mean, you say that but the Canoness is basically the same cost as the Archon (5pts cheaper in fact), yet it's fine for her to have markedly better melee output.

I really don't think it would break the game if the Archon had a Blessed Blade equivalent that cost an extra 10 or so points say.


But if you think that's overpowered, I'm happy to settle for just having the old +1S Huskblade back. It's markedly worse than the Blessed Blade but at least it would be *something*.

No, i'm saying the canoness appears to be way better for her points than basically everything in an equivalent points bracket in the game. The canoness is an outlier - look at the comparison I just did with basically every 60-80pt basic HQ unit in the game. The archon is slightly on the lower end, but has slightly better defenses. The canoness does significantly more damage than everyone else and costs fewer points with the blade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.

Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?

WL trait, I have Sucs and Draz for Melee, Archon will be for other reasons unless I don't play Drazhar and 2 Sucs.

Murder archon is better than a succubus in basically any build in melee without fighting twice. If youre taking 2 different wych detachments obviously you're stuck with 2 succubi, but it is factually better to trade out a trait+relic succubus out for a murder archon than the other way round.

The thing is... does anyone run a naked blessed blade canoness?

I guess the answers going to be "my mate does" - but really, competitively, I just don't think its a thing. Will you ever run an Archon without warlord traits and relics? Probably not - but you don't have to. So its not really an issue.

I was on the whole "Sisters are just DE but better" train for a while - but its hard to argue its still the case now.

Tyel wrote:
Will you ever run an Archon without warlord traits and relics? Probably not - but you don't have to. So its not really an issue.

I give up.

Apparently no one is capable of even engaging in this debate without immediately strawmanning the argument, so what's even the point?

"Perhaps the most lethal weapon used by Dark Eldar archons, Husk Blades evaporate the moisture from everything they touch leaving only dust-like figures if used against living beings. Even the toughest foes have been struck down by these blades".

In-game they struggle to wound without the correct Warlord Trait

 vipoid wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Will you ever run an Archon without warlord traits and relics? Probably not - but you don't have to. So its not really an issue.

I give up.

Apparently no one is capable of even engaging in this debate without immediately strawmanning the argument, so what's even the point?

Man im doing my best here. We're starting from the fantasy world where characters arent just basically defined by their warlord traits and relics already, but you keep talking about how hes miserable and pillow fisted and nothing worth a damn when hes just....middle of the road for his point value. If anything the character you keep comparing him to would appear to be an outlier for her points value.

Would it be overpiwered if there were more ways to buy offense on the archon than traits and relics? No. Itd be like space marine captains, people would basically always choose to buy offense using the traits and relics because it's a resource obly a few models in your army can use and everything can use points, and incidentally its a reaource we as drukhari just happen to get more of than everyine else.

the_scotsman wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
.....huh. That's weird.

I just realized that the succubus aura is reroll wounds of 1 in melee. Has it always been that? I thought it was rr1s to hit before.

Yeah, it used let you hits in melee for Cult units.

Honestly, given how few models it affects to begin with, I feel they could easily have let it reroll 1s to wound for shooting as well (fire those Splinter Pistols, ladies!).

Anyway, I'm assuming they changed it to wounds because the Archon in a RSR detachment can affect Cult units, so this at least means their auras stack in those circumstances.

Otherwise, it doesn't really change anything.

the_scotsman wrote:

Would it be nice if the Archon had an option like the blessed blade the canoness has, so that he can join her as solidly better than basically every other HQ that hangs out at their price point? Yeah, obviously my thing being tied for absolute best at offense for the points and also better at defense and faster would be good, but I don't think it'd be particularly *fair.*

I mean, you say that but the Canoness is basically the same cost as the Archon (5pts cheaper in fact), yet it's fine for her to have markedly better melee output.

I really don't think it would break the game if the Archon had a Blessed Blade equivalent that cost an extra 10 or so points say.


But if you think that's overpowered, I'm happy to settle for just having the old +1S Huskblade back. It's markedly worse than the Blessed Blade but at least it would be *something*.

No, i'm saying the canoness appears to be way better for her points than basically everything in an equivalent points bracket in the game. The canoness is an outlier - look at the comparison I just did with basically every 60-80pt basic HQ unit in the game. The archon is slightly on the lower end, but has slightly better defenses. The canoness does significantly more damage than everyone else and costs fewer points with the blade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I would only do that if I'm not taking Succubi and or Drazhar. Otherwise its IMO wasted on the Archon.

Do what? Take a relic and warlord trait?

WL trait, I have Sucs and Draz for Melee, Archon will be for other reasons unless I don't play Drazhar and 2 Sucs.

Murder archon is better than a succubus in basically any build in melee without fighting twice. If youre taking 2 different wych detachments obviously you're stuck with 2 succubi, but it is factually better to trade out a trait+relic succubus out for a murder archon than the other way round.

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.

Scroll up. He absolutely did do the math, and presented it in the thread. Now I haven't checked it, but you're not presenting any of your own to refute his argument.

If you're able to, it'd be a welcome addition to the discussion and far more useful to everyone than a generic claim without data that contradicts what Scotsman has shown.

 StrayIight wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.

Scroll up. He absolutely did do the math, and presented it in the thread. Now I haven't checked it, but you're not presenting any of your own to refute his argument.

If you're able to, it'd be a welcome addition to the discussion and far more useful to everyone than a generic claim without data that contradicts what Scotsman has shown.

And I did as well as many others, Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus, Razorflails is beyond that of the Archon.

Also Triptych whip, quicksilver, with +Atk drug is better as well.

Both able to kill full units of Primaris without trying, heck the Competitive Edge will be nerf bc RAI it shouldn't work like that, it is able to kill Primarchs and I have seen it kill Primarchs already.

the_scotsman wrote:

Man im doing my best here. We're starting from the fantasy world where characters arent just basically defined by their warlord traits and relics already, but you keep talking about how hes miserable and pillow fisted and nothing worth a damn when hes just....middle of the road for his point value. If anything the character you keep comparing him to would appear to be an outlier for her points value.

Cool, tell you what, let's remove Psychic Powers from Farseers. Maybe we'll give them a lesser version of Smite that does 1 wound at 6".

But it's okay because if they take this new Artefact called 'Psychic Helmet' then they can know another psychic power and have a proper version of smite. And if they take the 'Psychic Mastery' warlord trait, then they can know and cast a second power.

And if anyone complains that you have to take a specific artefact and a specific warlord trait to make a Farseer actually act remotely like a Farseer, then we can just shrug them off with 'Well who takes HQs without artefacts or warlord traits, duh?'

Truly we have reached a bright new age of HQ design.

The problem is, and I realise this is the personality clash - if you could build 2, maybe even 3 vaguely viable Farseers (and idk, there were also multiple Autarch builds, and even Spirit Seers/Warloccks [I'm reaching, I don't really know CWE]) then yes. Why would I care if the basic Farseer I'm never going to run was a bit rubbish?

You can call this a strawman - but I don't think anyone runs naked characters. Your cliche SM Captain with jump pack and thunder hammer is quite expensive, and not incredibly powerful if he doesn't have a reasonable run of "things" to make him better.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 StrayIight wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Then you did not do that math, the Succubus is WAY better and i mean WAY better.

Scroll up. He absolutely did do the math, and presented it in the thread. Now I haven't checked it, but you're not presenting any of your own to refute his argument.

If you're able to, it'd be a welcome addition to the discussion and far more useful to everyone than a generic claim without data that contradicts what Scotsman has shown.

And I did as well as many others, Competitive Edge, Dark Lotus, Razorflails is beyond that of the Archon.

Also Triptych whip, quicksilver, with +Atk drug is better as well.

Both able to kill full units of Primaris without trying, heck the Competitive Edge will be nerf bc RAI it shouldn't work like that, it is able to kill Primarchs and I have seen it kill Primarchs already.

I have not read the exact rules text of competitive edge, but from what I understand it's a round of bonus attacks for each attack you make that fails to cause an unsaved wound. A dark lotus razorflail succubus would be +1S -1AP D2 A7, each attack making 2 attack rolls, which would then double again RAW with each bonus attack from Competitive Edge.

vs GEQ: 13.4 dead
vs Primaris: 7.5 dead
vs Gravis: 2.8 dead
vs Vehicles: 10.5 wounds

Murder Archon with one round of melee attacks:

Vs GEQ: 6.9 dead (nice)
vs Primaris: 5.19 dead
vs Gravis: 4.0 dead
vs Vehicles: 12.33 wounds

With one round of melee attacks, the competitive edge succubus (who is better vs every category except vehicles than the triptch whip succubus you listed out, so I won't math her out fully) is better against GEQ, slightly better against primaris, and worse vs gravis (or any other quality W3 infantry/DG infantry) and vs vehicles. If he decides to attack twice, he blows her away against every target except GEQ. And, though it's difficult to math out the defenses of an archon because of the failed save, almost any combination of attack profiles is going to have a tougher time killing an archon than a succubus - against AP-, he can take a 4+ save the same as a succubus, and against higher damage attacks he can rely on the 2++ to save the first 3-4 wounds before compound probability gets to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Man im doing my best here. We're starting from the fantasy world where characters arent just basically defined by their warlord traits and relics already, but you keep talking about how hes miserable and pillow fisted and nothing worth a damn when hes just....middle of the road for his point value. If anything the character you keep comparing him to would appear to be an outlier for her points value.

Cool, tell you what, let's remove Psychic Powers from Farseers. Maybe we'll give them a lesser version of Smite that does 1 wound at 6".

But it's okay because if they take this new Artefact called 'Psychic Helmet' then they can know another psychic power and have a proper version of smite. And if they take the 'Psychic Mastery' warlord trait, then they can know and cast a second power.

And if anyone complains that you have to take a specific artefact and a specific warlord trait to make a Farseer actually act remotely like a Farseer, then we can just shrug them off with 'Well who takes HQs without artefacts or warlord traits, duh?'

Truly we have reached a bright new age of HQ design.

Except that that isn't the situation, as I've painstakingly pointed out. Your only real fallback is your feeling that Archons *should* be stronger characters - that they should be better at fighting in melee by default than a craftworld autarch, or a canoness, or a necron overlord, or a tyranid prime, based on lore descriptions. For his current point cost, he simply is not factually bad at being a melee oriented character, he's right in the middle of the pack, and most of what's ahead of him - harlequin troupe masters, sisters canonesses - are from armies that are generally considered to be too strong on the competitive curve - or in the troupe master, completely hinging on the fact that his aura currently works on himself, which has a 0% chance of getting thru to the next codex he's in.

Canoness(es?) are extremely cheap for how good they are to be honest, and the blessed blade is a weapon that in other armies would be a relic.

Theres not really that much generic characters (Specially the commanding ones, not talking about full combat ones like champions, etc...) that are really that good offensively. Even a Ork Warboss that should be extremely scary in meele , without relics and warlords traits is extremely underwelming.

And I have never seen a ork player complaint as much as dark eldar about their warbosses. They just take the killa klaw, Brutal but kunnin (Or the other, I don't remember) and delete whatever their uber warboss charges.

I mean, even a space marine captain, when fielded in multiples before, it would normally be max two captains: A extremely cheap one with chainsword and bolter to support and the one with all the relics and warlord traits to kill stuff.


Of course it would be phenomenal for all characters to be extremely good with basic wargear and then become beasts with combos of relics and warlords traits! But now DE are basically... like everyone else. Actually quite bit better because the amount of murder-succubuss they can make is superior to most other armies that normally have just 1 combo for 1 type of character to make them viable meele combatants (with the exception of marines of course with their 20 warlord traits and 343052350 relics)

Galas back in the day a friend played a game with an archon vs a bio titan and had it not been for lash whips or something the archon likely would've won. 5th edition had crazy archons. Even in 7th I had 4 archons in a group together which at times seemed nigh indestructible. I managed to tank entire gunlines with them and then in one game managed to kill a stormsurge with them. I barely did it but I managed it.

Let that sink in if archons have gone from possibly killing a bio titan or stormsurge all the way to being a ravager buff aura hero and little else. I'll admit I haven't read much of our newest codex but the power difference is staggering from where they were compared to where they are now.

--------

On another subject I actually disagree with whoever said enhanced sensory organs for covens is bad because I did a little remembering. So sisters of battle have this ability which negates low ap weapons. I was planning to use splinter cannon venoms in place of dissies on many units. Sisters in cover would be absolute murder against this loadout I'm planning without a way around light and heavy cover. Same goes for custodes in cover. -1s to hit or a 2+ armor? Yeah no thanks.

Sure I'd wound on 4+ but all I really need is damage 2 on splinter cannons and negatives to hit would also be bad. I could still use poisoned tongue for anti geq poison spam with warriors in raiders but I'm not gonna give an option for enemies in cover with 3+ armor with an ability to negate low ap weapons. I think admech have that option too btw.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Draz is fighting twice every turn though and has more staying power. I think I'd rather have it on Draz still. I can't imagine not having draz.

He's also much more expensive, can't fit a realspace unless paying 2 CPs and with his 4++ he can't really tank that much even with -1damage: it just needs two hits that go through saves from a typically kitted 83 points warboss to die. Which means he's not really good in tanking and if he can't fight first he might not have a chance to do anything, regardless of his fight twice free ability. If he joins Incubi their transport is getting all the attention in the world as it's 300-390 points of T3 melee only models on a not so armored vehicle. If his transport is wrecked picking him up with firepower is not the hardest thing to do. The Archon at least has his nasty 2++ to take down, so he can actually tank something and get the chance to fight twice as well.

I also think that having two (or even 3) skilled fighters is better than having a tax HQ and a slightly upgraded fighter. Drazhar doesn't really gain that much from the trait.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

On another subject I actually disagree with whoever said enhanced sensory organs for covens is bad because I did a little remembering. So sisters of battle have this ability which negates low ap weapons. I was planning to use splinter cannon venoms in place of dissies on many units. Sisters in cover would be absolute murder against this loadout I'm planning without a way around light and heavy cover. Same goes for custodes in cover. -1s to hit or a 2+ armor? Yeah no thanks.

Sure I'd wound on 4+ but all I really need is damage 2 on splinter cannons and negatives to hit would also be bad. I could still use poisoned tongue for anti geq poison spam with warriors in raiders but I'm not gonna give an option for enemies in cover with 3+ armor with an ability to negate low ap weapons. I think admech have that option too btw.

Sure, I mostly rated it as not good because a situation like that is fairly niche, and it mostly just benefits splinter cannons which covens don't tend to field a whole lot of generally. The more AP you have the less likely you are to care for cover...though I guess now that heavy cover actually works it could be useful as a generic benefit for your melee guys.

IDK. Mostly I'm comparing it and whatever second one you'd combine it with to coven of 12, which always gets the extra AP on melee weapons (seeing as ignore cover is basically equivalent to a conditional extra -1AP) but I guess it's not on the same level as like, the 'torturers craft is cheaper' or 'do a single MW on a charge on a 4+' ones. it's just kinda a generic benefit slightly tilted towards if for some reason you have tons of venoms that you're classing as part of your coven instead of taking as Poisoned Tongue units.

I honestly don't like RSR at all, i'm still running 3 patrols. the +2CP is really nice and my melee is Incubi or Wyches so I don't need Raidmaster aura. The Succubi are there for the Wyches if i needed but normally I don't. Also Drazhar hits like a freaking truck, it is well worth it to have Hatred Eternal if you are worried about high Tough and high Wounds.

The big thing is Having Drazhar and a good Succubus means they can go out on their own. I think people are under estimating the power of our units now. Unless its a 20man Neecron warrior unit, a 10man Inner Circle, or a 8 Man Custodes Terminator unit, we don't need multi layers of hero support to deal with things, and then you can still have hero support if you need.

With Transports and vehicles not being Core, i have even less of a reason to take an Archon, PS Archons fight twice is worst than Drazhars, b.c he can only do it once and has no way himself to make units fight last.

Honestly with Hellions, Reavers, for what you can make them do combine with Incubi and Drazhar, almost all my bases are covered. I mean Drazhar took out a 5man Skyweaver unit himself, lets see a Archon do that lol.

PS: Fly-by is INSANE now, most likely going to be one of my most used stratagems now. You can kill characters just with it.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Draz is fighting twice every turn though and has more staying power. I think I'd rather have it on Draz still. I can't imagine not having draz.

He's also much more expensive, can't fit a realspace unless paying 2 CPs and with his 4++ he can't really tank that much even with -1damage: it just needs two hits that go through saves from a typically kitted 83 points warboss to die. Which means he's not really good in tanking and if he can't fight first he might not have a chance to do anything, regardless of his fight twice free ability. If he joins Incubi their transport is getting all the attention in the world as it's 300-390 points of T3 melee only models on a not so armored vehicle. If his transport is wrecked picking him up with firepower is not the hardest thing to do. The Archon at least has his nasty 2++ to take down, so he can actually tank something and get the chance to fight twice as well.

I also think that having two (or even 3) skilled fighters is better than having a tax HQ and a slightly upgraded fighter. Drazhar doesn't really gain that much from the trait.

He's tougher and does more damage than an archon - 2+ armor, 4++, -1 damage, and an extra wound mean while he's not impossible to kill, he's not the glass cannon that a unit of incubi is by any stretch of the imagination.

The thing is though, running an archon along with him actually gives him 1/2 of the hatred eternal trait - because he has the INCUBI keyword so the archon gives him rr1s to hit, and rr1s to hit is the same as rr all to hit for drazar.

I definitely think if you're running drazar alongside incubi it's 100% worth a second transport for the squad of incubi, putting them together makes for a massive target. The only problem is that un-rerollable 1 to lose drazar if his transport gets focused out. But having a squad of incubi with +1 to wound is super heckin nice...

 Amishprn86 wrote:
I honestly don't like RSR at all, i'm still running 3 patrols. the +2CP is really nice and my melee is Incubi or Wyches so I don't need Raidmaster aura. The Succubi are there for the Wyches if i needed but normally I don't. Also Drazhar hits like a freaking truck, it is well worth it to have Hatred Eternal if you are worried about high Tough and high Wounds.

The big thing is Having Drazhar and a good Succubus means they can go out on their own. I think people are under estimating the power of our units now. Unless its a 20man Neecron warrior unit, a 10man Inner Circle, or a 8 Man Custodes Terminator unit, we don't need multi layers of hero support to deal with things, and then you can still have hero support if you need.

With Transports and vehicles not being Core, i have even less of a reason to take an Archon, PS Archons fight twice is worst than Drazhars, b.c he can only do it once and has no way himself to make units fight last.

Honestly with Hellions, Reavers, for what you can make them do combine with Incubi and Drazhar, almost all my bases are covered. I mean Drazhar took out a 5man Skyweaver unit himself, lets see a Archon do that lol.

PS: Fly-by is INSANE now, most likely going to be one of my most used stratagems now. You can kill characters just with it.

Yeah I am with you on this. Not including archon I think is the best way to go. Drazar and double succubus will be my Hq's I believe. Not including RSR gives you more points to spend on our best stuff. Hellions/ Revers / VRB / Incubi / big squads of wyches.

How are DE beast squads now? Are they at least cheap enough for objective duties?

Points are the same as the FAQ, but 1 unit can now run and charge if you are near the Beastmaster as well as they take up slots (which is good and bad, good with old rules bad now that we want Hellions and Reavers).

They are Blades for Hire, so in RSR/Archon you can give them re-rolls.

Over all they are a meh option,mostly b.c we have so many good options now. They are great for Crusade, and fine for casual or pick up games though.

 whembly wrote:
How are DE beast squads now? Are they at least cheap enough for objective duties?

Yeah, basically. The main problem with them is threefold: 1, the fact you have to include a beasmaster offsets their cheapness somewhat. 2, the beast squads themselves do now eat fast slots though the master is slotless. And 3, having the beast instead of infantry keyword limits their action capabilities and so limits the objectives that they can help with.

A Khymera is basically a slightly different wych (2pts more, +1S, +2move, +1 invuln but no no escape or dodge), a clawed fiend is a cut-rate Grotesque (15ppm less, no FNP no invuln, slightly faster movement, similar offense due to more attacks but shittier weapon skill) and razorwings are weird little fast nurgling dudes that definitely seem like the worst of the bunch.

I think you could make the argument for having a beastmaster and 3 individual clawed fiends as a scoring crew, or a beastmaster and a big ol unit of khymerae or two as a fast anti-infantry unit.

The problem I keep having with them is that stupid stupid fast attack slot for the beasts. I've got min wrack squads for scoring, which are slightly more expensive than clawed fiends but not that much more, and they're infantry so they can do actions, but they dont get in the way of me having enough fast slots to fit all my hellions and reavers and scourges and more hellions all the hellions THEY LAUGHED THEY CALLED ME MAD NOW THEYLL SEE ahem. sorry.

I bought several gangs of comorragh boxes, then bought the hellions out of a couple more when people were like 'uhhhhh this is the worst unit in the game and I got this just for the reavers, you want em for 10 bucks?'