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What are thoughts on what the best khab spam kabal would be?

How would you do it?

 Xenomancers wrote:
What are thoughts on what the best khab spam kabal would be?

How would you do it?

Obrose, raiders, 1 dark lance per squad, splinter racks.

30" rapid fire range splinter rifles with rerolling to wound dark lances, sounds good to me!

What about custom traits for exploding 6's on splinters and ap-1 on 6's? or all consuming for 6s to hit wound on a 2+ and reroll 1's to wound.

BH for using lots of blades for hire and Lances, PT if you like Venoms while still using melee to redeploy, custom traits for max poison shots damage (Merciless Razorkin/Torturous Efficiency)

I assume that OR Trueborn are better than their BH counterparts; re-rolling hits being less important if you already have a BS 2+

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BH for using lots of blades for hire and Lances, PT if you like Venoms while still using melee to redeploy, custom traits for max poison shots damage (Merciless Razorkin/Torturous Efficiency)

BH only helps Blades if you're in a RSR detachment. I'm assuming if he wants kab spam kabals he wants all-kabals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
I assume that OR Trueborn are better than their BH counterparts; re-rolling hits being less important if you already have a BS 2+

Well, I actually quite like the BH reroll to hit on a triple darklight squad, because compound probability says that it's around 3 dice that you're more likely to see a one than not (that's when the Archon's shadowfield is more likely to fail than continue to succeed as well) and rerolling a 1 to a 2+ is an extremely good chance to hit, as anyone who knows how good BS2+ rerolling 1s feels compared to, say, bs4+ rerolling 1s.

but god DAMN obrose is safe as hell.

PT all day every day if you're going for venoms tho. Maybe 1 patrol of PT 1 patrol of BH or Obrose.

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.

Also, poison 3+ Agonizer Sybarites? Eh? Eh? Anyone? Bueller?

the_scotsman wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BH for using lots of blades for hire and Lances, PT if you like Venoms while still using melee to redeploy, custom traits for max poison shots damage (Merciless Razorkin/Torturous Efficiency)

BH only helps Blades if you're in a RSR detachment. I'm assuming if he wants kab spam kabals he wants all-kabals.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 harlokin wrote:
I assume that OR Trueborn are better than their BH counterparts; re-rolling hits being less important if you already have a BS 2+

Well, I actually quite like the BH reroll to hit on a triple darklight squad, because compound probability says that it's around 3 dice that you're more likely to see a one than not (that's when the Archon's shadowfield is more likely to fail than continue to succeed as well) and rerolling a 1 to a 2+ is an extremely good chance to hit, as anyone who knows how good BS2+ rerolling 1s feels compared to, say, bs4+ rerolling 1s.

but god DAMN obrose is safe as hell.

PT all day every day if you're going for venoms tho. Maybe 1 patrol of PT 1 patrol of BH or Obrose.

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.

Also, poison 3+ Agonizer Sybarites? Eh? Eh? Anyone? Bueller?

While true, it also helps Incubi no matter what.

PS, ObRose is really good too for more focus on Kabals.

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.

Goonhammer did their version of this analysis already. PT and Exploding Sixes are roughly a wash for Splinter Rifles, but on Splinter Cannons the latter seems to be winning out against multiwound targets. I would have preferred to see more target profiles mathed out, but it is what it is:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-spotlight-the-new-drukhari-codex/

I bet you guys have missed one boon for detachment construction:

You don’t actually have to have a let’s say Dark Technomancers Coven patrol detachment filled with only Coven units. You can put an Archon there, Wyches, anything you want, but the only units gaining an obsession there are the Coven units. Reading the rules, how it works is you ’designate’ a detachment coven, kabal or cult, but the only restriction is that you can’t have like two different wych cults in the same detachment, for example.

There are units that you don’t need an obsession for. But slots are in short supply in the 3 Patrol (14 cp) setup. Transports that are coven or kabal can likewise transport wyches or anything else, so there’s a lot of room for customization.

Just a heads up. Sean Nayden noticed this change first and pointed it out elsewhere.

Yeah we did notice that already, nothing really stands out for a good reason to do that yet. Maybe with some math a double Coven and Wych detachment throw in a Archon with a Relic or WL trait might be really good or something.

I personally haven't looked for those combos ye b.c I am waiting for the faq, some already asked GW about it.

Plenty reason to do that. For example, why would a Black Heart Patrol take the ’obligatory’ 5 naked Kabalites, when it can take 5 Wracks, and the Black Heart units still get their obsession. Similarly, if I just want the Djin Blade / Hatred Eternal Archon, I can slam him in a detachment where Coven still get their traits. Him missing out on a Kabal obsession is hardly a problem. You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.

A lot of players intuitively assumed that mixing would ’break’ Obsessions for everyone, but that turned out to be incorrect.

 Therion wrote:
Plenty reason to do that. For example, why would a Black Heart Patrol take the ’obligatory’ 5 naked Kabalites, when it can take 5 Wracks, and the Black Heart units still get their obsession. Similarly, if I just want the Djin Blade / Hatred Eternal Archon, I can slam him in a detachment where Coven still get their traits. Him missing out on a Kabal obsession is hardly a problem. You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.

A lot of players intuitively assumed that mixing would ’break’ Obsessions for everyone, but that turned out to be incorrect.

Need a full black heart detachment to get access to vect. Need a full stride detachment to access strife strats and warlord traits etc.

OrdoSean wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Plenty reason to do that. For example, why would a Black Heart Patrol take the ’obligatory’ 5 naked Kabalites, when it can take 5 Wracks, and the Black Heart units still get their obsession. Similarly, if I just want the Djin Blade / Hatred Eternal Archon, I can slam him in a detachment where Coven still get their traits. Him missing out on a Kabal obsession is hardly a problem. You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.

A lot of players intuitively assumed that mixing would ’break’ Obsessions for everyone, but that turned out to be incorrect.

Need a full black heart detachment to get access to vect. Need a full stride detachment to access strife strats and warlord traits etc.

I have to agree, page 53:

'Each Kabal, Wych Cult or Coven has an associated Stratagem. If your army includes a Kabal, Wych Cult, or Coven Detachment (excluding Auxillary Support Detachments) from one of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Covens named in this section, or a Real Space Raid Detachment that includes units from any of the Kabals, Wych Cults or Covens named in this section, you can spend command points to use this Stratagem.'

This pretty clearly rules out a single model with X Keyword in another type of detachment, allowing access to any strat etc.
The statement: 'You even get access to the stratagems like Vect without ever having a Black Heart Detachment. Just that solo Archon who doesn’t even have an obsession will do. He is still Black Heart keyword after all.' is unfortunately pretty clearly untrue.

Edit

 Therion wrote:
The supplement says you need a Strife detachment, yes. And where do you imagine it says you need a Black Heart detachment to get access to Black Heart relics, w/l traits, stratagems? This is what I mean. You assume things. Just link your source and a quote the next time you answer.

Look one post up...

Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).

 Therion wrote:
Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).

Maybe.

It's quite hard to rule on this and it's probably going to need an FAQ. As written, the Codex calls out some of what you describe on page 49, but ONLY for units in a Realspace Raid detachment, and it seems to me to indicate that this is allowed because they are in a RSR detachment.

The implication then is that you can't do so where this is not the case. For relics at least.

I suspect you're right with regard to obsessions. I've no idea how Warlord traits are intended to work in this regard.

 Therion wrote:
Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).

Sure units is fine I agree. After all I’m Sean Nayden.

Just you brought up just bringing an archon to get access to vect and so I wanted to squash that very quickly before by association it seemed like I was saying that was ok. And therefore not besides the point.

Warlord traits and relics seem a little foggier but I would lean towards you can’t take anything specific unless you have the specific detachment type to unlock it. But you could make a raw case for allowing it as it’s not specific.

The rules are very clear that you can’t access to stratagems without the detachment.

Rules also pretty clear that you can put any units you want anywhere and they just don’t gain obsessions.

But as always A gw faq or a TO ruling will override any of these.

OrdoSean wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Still doesn’t rule out units, warlord traits, or relics. Just the associated stratagems. Which was beside the original point (obsessions).

Sure units is fine I agree. After all I’m Sean Nayden.

Just you brought up just bringing an archon to get access to vect and so I wanted to squash that very quickly before by association it seemed like I was saying that was ok. And therefore not besides the point.

Warlord traits and relics seem a little foggier but I would lean towards you can’t take anything specific unless you have the specific detachment type to unlock it. But you could make a raw case for allowing it as it’s not specific.

The rules are very clear that you can’t access to stratagems without the detachment.

Rules also pretty clear that you can put any units you want anywhere and they just don’t gain obsessions.

But as always A gw faq or a TO ruling will override any of these.

I don’t think there’s anything ambiguous here, nor did I imply you are a source for rules interpretation. Only that you raised this question elsewhere and noticed a clear change to the past, which was a good thing to notice because 99% of players missed it. In fact I think we should remember Drukhari are uniquely limited historically, basically because of background material reasons, not because of gameplay reasons. I don’t expect any FAQs or TO rulings on this, but hey, anything is possible. To me it seems like the intent is exactly like it reads. In a RSR detachment everyone get traits. In a Patrol detachment only the designated units do. But the units don’t break traits, and units with keywords still belong to those keywords, whether they have an obsession or not.

I completely missed the line about how the stratagems are accessed, because the rules aren’t gathered coherently, and that part of my post was in reply to ’there’s no uses for mixing units within detachments’. For sure I think there’s plenty of them. It grants a whole ton of flexibility for army construction that otherwise wouldn’t be there.

Yeah, I think there are some units (ravagers, archon, reavers maybe) that it makes sense to drop in traitless in some situations. Triplance ravager is handy to be able to stick into a wych cult focused list - id put one in before a razorwing jetfighter almost every time.

I've gone over the codex with a fine toothed comb today trying to satisfy myself with a concrete answer with regard to the above, and I have to be fair and say I think Therion is correct about Warlord Traits and Relics.

It's abundantly clear that RAW you can take any unit you like in a detachment, however only (for example) <KABAL> units gain obsessions in a Kabal detachment. So adding a Chronos say, is completely fine, but you don't get the usual obsession bonus for it.
It's clear too, that you don't get access to a Kabal/Cult/Coven specific stratagem without having that strats associated Detachment, or a Realspace Raid formation.

The codex references (as do they all seemingly) that when you add any unit to your army, you give that unit an appropriate Keyword replacing <KABAL> etc. There's nothing stopping that keyword being present, ever.
Everything I read (including the additional relic strat and the like), says nothing more than that chosen Keyword determines your choice of relic/trait. I can't see anything stopping you shoving a Cult of Strife Succubus, in a Coven detachment and giving her the Phial - it merely requires she be a CoS Succubus. Nothing elsewhere appears to prevent this.

I can't say that whether this is RAI, or even if I'm horribly wrong and have missed something obvious (please, do tell me if so - I'm completely rules blind from looking at this for so long!) but right now, it does seem legit as far as I can see.

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

I'm not certain of the math, but I think all the 'on a 6, thing happens' traits add up to 1/2 of a normal wound shift, and PT is a full wound shift plus the morale thing as a cherry on top. Maybe someone could math out how PT compares to double custom trait poison weapon thingies.

Goonhammer did their version of this analysis already. PT and Exploding Sixes are roughly a wash for Splinter Rifles, but on Splinter Cannons the latter seems to be winning out against multiwound targets. I would have preferred to see more target profiles mathed out, but it is what it is:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-spotlight-the-new-drukhari-codex/

So there's a positive and a negative for doing data like this in a bubble. For instance Poisoned tongue also has the combat attrition tests negative modifier for enemies and such a thing might work better in a Freak Show list but the data doesn't show that. The problem is all of this is fairly overly specific to certain things.

 StrayIight wrote:
I've gone over the codex with a fine toothed comb today trying to satisfy myself with a concrete answer with regard to the above, and I have to be fair and say I think Therion is correct about Warlord Traits and Relics.

It's abundantly clear that RAW you can take any unit you like in a detachment, however only (for example) <KABAL> units gain obsessions in a Kabal detachment. So adding a Chronos say, is completely fine, but you don't get the usual obsession bonus for it.
It's clear too, that you don't get access to a Kabal/Cult/Coven specific stratagem without having that strats associated Detachment, or a Realspace Raid formation.

The codex references (as do they all seemingly) that when you add any unit to your army, you give that unit an appropriate Keyword replacing <KABAL> etc. There's nothing stopping that keyword being present, ever.
Everything I read (including the additional relic strat and the like), says nothing more than that chosen Keyword determines your choice of relic/trait. I can't see anything stopping you shoving a Cult of Strife Succubus, in a Coven detachment and giving her the Phial - it merely requires she be a CoS Succubus. Nothing elsewhere appears to prevent this.

I can't say that whether this is RAI, or even if I'm horribly wrong and have missed something obvious (please, do tell me if so - I'm completely rules blind from looking at this for so long!) but right now, it does seem legit as far as I can see.

Regarding Kabal/Wych/Coven detachments, I wouldn't be surprised if GW FAQ'd it so that you can't take a <Wych> unit in a Kabal Detachment and so forth. Given the wording on pg 53 around stratagems it seems to be what has been assumed. Adding one subfaction to another's detachment is not something that I would lean too heavily into for list design until after the FAQ comes out.

So the Lhamaen poison buff allows 6s to hit to auto wound vehicles.

Venger6 wrote:
So the Lhamaen poison buff allows 6s to hit to auto wound vehicles.

That's a nice catch.
Presumably, you could double the effect by using Merciless Razerkin also (each 6+ to hit causes two hits instead of one).

 StrayIight wrote:

Venger6 wrote:
So the Lhamaen poison buff allows 6s to hit to auto wound vehicles.

That's a nice catch.
Presumably, you could double the effect by using Merciless Razerkin also (each 6+ to hit causes two hits instead of one).

You cannot. The extra hit does not come with a roll value attached, and cannot proc any abilities that come from said value.

JakeSiren wrote:
Regarding Kabal/Wych/Coven detachments, I wouldn't be surprised if GW FAQ'd it so that you can't take a <Wych> unit in a Kabal Detachment and so forth. Given the wording on pg 53 around stratagems it seems to be what has been assumed. Adding one subfaction to another's detachment is not something that I would lean too heavily into for list design until after the FAQ comes out.

Yeah... mixed views.

It seems like such an oversight that it must be intentional - but also feels so counter-intuitive to how the game usually works, that its almost certainly a mistake.

Feel like it makes Murderarchon even more of an auto-slot in.

How do we deal with Mortarion? Dark Lance or Heat Lance spam doesn’t seem too cost effective.

Rivener wrote:
How do we deal with Mortarion? Dark Lance or Heat Lance spam doesn’t seem too cost effective.

Mortals would work well. Ichor injectors, precision blows, eviscerating flybys, bale blasts, possibly PLG. I mean, poison seems fairly decent as well fo chip damage and adding in dark lances and or heat lances should all snowball into your answer.

Honestly I wouldn't feel unequipped to handle him with this book. I think this book gives Death Guard players a reason to be afraid.

Poison from the Hellions that just flew over him wound Mortarion on a 4+ a third get through the armour and they are not damage reduced being 1 Wnd. It sure beats shooting at terminators or vehicles. Do enough chip damage and you may have some AT still spare to deal with other threats