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I see tons of people justifying recasting by GW prices being high and quality bad or models being unavailable and then say that it justifies recasting. And here's a thing that bothers me about it:
When I was in my 20s, "feth GW", "GW are thieves" would be used in context of choosing to play another system, not buying recasts and staying under GW hegemony. I have literally searched for Chronopia today and these specific words were used when talking about the game in 2005.

People act like buying recasts is just a matter between them and GW when in reality it's a matter between them and the market as a whole and the gaming "community" as a whole and also besides the wider market of nerd hobbies.

For example I couldn't afford Imperial Armour books back when they were published so I got seriously into military history, specifically into WWI and French Army of WWI and WWII. Now my shelves are filled with military history books instead.
Yeah, warhammerisforeveryone could exclude me but it was an opportunity for others.

So in 90s and 2000s GW prices were mostly an opportunity for creators of other systems to become popular but now they are opportunity for recasters only and also reinforcing GW hegemony because people who buy recasts often keep buying GW products they can afford.

Another thing that bothers me is the "alternatives" that basically ripoffs of GW designs that of course mysteriously don't have their own setting and rules. It also shows how GW hegemony and continued loyalty of the current "GW are thieves" crowd to it stifles creativity and closes opportunities to creators to create their own thing because people turned the dystopian "GW hobby" slogan into reality.

In my experience (so take this with a grain of salt), most people I know who have that attitude have already left. In my gaming group, there's around a half dozen people who have split off into either the AMG Star Wars stuff (X-Wing, Armada, Legion), or they play a cornucopia of exclusively non-GW games like Infinity, Guildball, or Malifaux.

The only people doing recasts are those that actually like the 40k game and don't have a large amount of disposable income (parents of small kids, students, etc. I'm in one of the highest cost of living areas in my country).

I'd buy recasts only for models that are OOP or from models GW sells as finecast because recasts then are of better quality than what GW is selling.

For my part, I do not see a difference between stealing a product I think costs more than it is worth and stealing a product I think has a reasonable price. It is still theft. And people know that, precisely why they try so hard to justify it. One does not need to justify something that is not wrong.

I stick away from recasts and 3d-prints myself, but when I talk to folks locally I tell them that if the FLGS sells it, you are doing your community a disservice by not purchasing from them. I *tolerate* people getting recasts or prints of otherwise unavailable models, but it still leaves a real bad taste in my mouth, hence why I do not do this myself.

I don't buy recasts, if GW or FW stops making it I'm sad but I move on. I'd rather buy inspired by designs or original designs or such.

My view is many recasters are simply leaching money from the hobby itself. That means less money going into local stores, into designers, into companies, into producers. I'd rather my money at the very least goes into the system that supports what I love rather than something which leaches off it.



And I also love it when a recaster changes - eg the team behind Signum used to do all the Confrontation recasting; now they've stopped (actually they stopped some time ago) and are now designing and releasing their own models as both physical and digital products. That's what I'd support.




I don't mind when someone - eg Raging Heroes or Wargame Exclusive - are making their own interpretations of GW models. Sure I'd like to see more variety in the market, but they are designing new ideas and concepts even if within the same structure of GW games. It gives an alternative and the money is at least going into design and production and the industry behind wargames and miniature model making.

Whilst I'll admit I have a few alternatively sourced models like Arcanis161 said i've moved onto other games. some on par price wise with the GW others not so much

GW is not The Hobby and if the hard of thinking cant see that I'm not under any obligation to correct them (bar the odd snarky jab)

Never bought a recast and I think that I saw one on the table only once.
They are a very rare occurance in my area.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
One does not need to justify something that is not wrong.

This is an interesting and absolutist view of the world. I wish you luck on never doing anything you have to provide a justification for later.

Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

the_scotsman wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
One does not need to justify something that is not wrong.

This is an interesting and absolutist view of the world. I wish you luck on never doing anything you have to provide a justification for later.

The only people asking for justification are the GW White Knights. Otherwise nobody buying the recasts have ever needed to give their reasoning.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

I'm sorry, but buying a paint "Inspired By" Macragge Blue and using it to paint a Games Workshop Tm Ultramarine Tm is theft, however you feel like justifying it to yourself. Seeking out a similar product for a lower price with similar applications and significant usability and quality improvements is a flimsy justification for your crimes. Sometimes these hacks at companies like Vallejo IF THAT IS THEIR REAL NAME don't even bother trying to hide their blatant plagiarism, like they'll sell a blatant rip-off paint and call it "Ultramarine Blue" so you JACKALS will know where to perpetrate your THEFT.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

Paints are actually fine. I tried other brands and in the end came back to GW for most of them (not all). Tools and dices instead are impossibly priced. And don't get me started on my Sister's of battle dices!

the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

I'm sorry, but buying a paint "Inspired By" Macragge Blue and using it to paint a Games Workshop Tm Ultramarine Tm is theft, however you feel like justifying it to yourself. Seeking out a similar product for a lower price with similar applications and significant usability and quality improvements is a flimsy justification for your crimes. Sometimes these hacks at companies like Vallejo IF THAT IS THEIR REAL NAME don't even bother trying to hide their blatant plagiarism, like they'll sell a blatant rip-off paint and call it "Ultramarine Blue" so you JACKALS will know where to perpetrate your THEFT.

You do realise that ultramarine is a name for a colour that is much older than the very concept of wargaming right? Or did I miss an attempted joke?

the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

I'm sorry, but buying a paint "Inspired By" Macragge Blue and using it to paint a Games Workshop Tm Ultramarine Tm is theft, however you feel like justifying it to yourself. Seeking out a similar product for a lower price with similar applications and significant usability and quality improvements is a flimsy justification for your crimes. Sometimes these hacks at companies like Vallejo IF THAT IS THEIR REAL NAME don't even bother trying to hide their blatant plagiarism, like they'll sell a blatant rip-off paint and call it "Ultramarine Blue" so you JACKALS will know where to perpetrate your THEFT.

Rip-off paint?
I had to read what you put three times and I still don't know if you are joking.

 Dolnikan wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

I'm sorry, but buying a paint "Inspired By" Macragge Blue and using it to paint a Games Workshop Tm Ultramarine Tm is theft, however you feel like justifying it to yourself. Seeking out a similar product for a lower price with similar applications and significant usability and quality improvements is a flimsy justification for your crimes. Sometimes these hacks at companies like Vallejo IF THAT IS THEIR REAL NAME don't even bother trying to hide their blatant plagiarism, like they'll sell a blatant rip-off paint and call it "Ultramarine Blue" so you JACKALS will know where to perpetrate your THEFT.

You do realise that ultramarine is a name for a colour that is much older than the very concept of wargaming right? Or did I miss an attempted joke?

I think that was a joke. The over emphasis of certain parts and general "angry" wording read as either a joke or trolling to me, but I could be wrong. I doubt it, but they might genuinely believe GW has a copyright on every color in the rainbow.

 Dolnikan wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we all address the real GW crap that everyone hates? Because it ain't the models, it's the 30ML paint pots for twice the cost of Vallejho paint bottles. Or their snips that break if they touch human skin, or the dice that cost 25 bucks but are mostly bubbles. They charge designer costs for cheap gak, and they know it.

Who gives a crap what they charge for a box of Eliminators? I will forever tell people not to buy their brushes, their snips, their dice, or their paint though. All Crap.

I'm sorry, but buying a paint "Inspired By" Macragge Blue and using it to paint a Games Workshop Tm Ultramarine Tm is theft, however you feel like justifying it to yourself. Seeking out a similar product for a lower price with similar applications and significant usability and quality improvements is a flimsy justification for your crimes. Sometimes these hacks at companies like Vallejo IF THAT IS THEIR REAL NAME don't even bother trying to hide their blatant plagiarism, like they'll sell a blatant rip-off paint and call it "Ultramarine Blue" so you JACKALS will know where to perpetrate your THEFT.

You do realise that ultramarine is a name for a colour that is much older than the very concept of wargaming right? Or did I miss an attempted joke?

he's rocking some serious sarcasm there. Im 99% sure hes was joking

I thought it was a hilarious deconstruction of the wrongheaded assumptions that go into a lot of these discussions.

In particular the vocabulary of "theft" and "stealing" is really not useful when discussing IP infringement. Buying a recast isn't stealing from GW. The need to categorize it as that is itself an interesting form of justification - when you need to ascribe an emotionally-laden term to something that doesn't actually fit the definition of the term, it's usually a good clue that you're thinking emotionally rather than rationally.

Note I'm not saying recasting is good, or without cost. But it isn't stealing. You can't steal someone's intellectual property; the whole reason we have copyright is because it *isn't* theft. If it was, we wouldn't need copyright laws, you could be arrested for actual theft.

I can only think it's due to people on Dakka being in such a state of perpetual anger and confrontation that it's the one place on the internet I've never seen so many jokes missed...

Damn, I am less good at sarcasm than I think sometimes

I'll make an explicit post then. I'm responding basically to this:

"Another thing that bothers me is the "alternatives" that basically ripoffs of GW designs that of course mysteriously don't have their own setting and rules."

For whatever reason, when it comes specifically to things within the realm of nerd consumption hobbies, people get extremely weird about what they consider "stealing someone's idea."

The job of basically any free market system that works is to provide two things: the...the name of the thing, essentially. A market, that is free. Anyone who's not literally taking someone else's work, directly copying it, and then passing on a cost savings to the customer by not paying the original designer, is participating fairly in that free market.

When you look for models that are alternatives to those constructed by GW, 99% of the time they fall within one of three categories

1) higher quality sculpts, made out of easier to work with material, which are cheaper (Example: Eldar aspect warriors not originally sculpted from clay in 1988 and rendered in fossilized shaving cream)

2) ideas compatible with Games Workshop's universe but which GW does not produce (Female models for guardsmen, alternative guard regiments or space marine legions inspired by different historical sources, new designs of tau suits, pain engines, space marine armor marks, etc)

3) ideas originally created by Games Workshop that they no longer produce (Tomb Kings, models for various discontinued guard regiments, DKOK units)

The logic behind getting mad at someone for purchasing an alternative army of, for example, scottish Highland guardsmen from Victoria miniatures rather than an army of cadians from Games Workshop is no different from complaining that someone painted their ultramarine miniature blue with something other than official games workshop paint, or complaining that someone gets paid for doing commissioned artwork of other peoples' Dungeons and Dragons characters because Wizards of the Coast somehow owns EVERYTHING relating to the ideas constructed in Dungeons and Dragons.

Vastly more blatant copying of ideas and innovations happens in almost every other industrial setting in the world, and I'll let you in on a little secret. Come close.

It's a really good thing for you, the person who lives in the world.

Any industry dominated by a single producer for a long period of time is an absolute hellzone. As someone who is an engineer and who has entered into industries right when one of the giants falls, typically there's straight-up bonkers stuff that that industry didn't do, just because companies get UNBELIEVABLY lazy when they've got any kind of market cornered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also, in case someone is going to call me on this: I understand that the poster is just someone who dislikes games workshop and wants people to stop playing games workshop games and liking games workshop properties, so he resents the fact that many third parties make things inspired by GW IP.

I have an opinion here... Not likely to be popular, and I don't even know if I should share.

Basically, I think that wealth disparity needs to decrease. I'm materialistic, and I like my creature comforts- including toy soldiers, so I can't come out and declare myself anti-capitalist, or anti-corporate. But if this Pandemic has taught me anything, the way assign value to work, and the assumptions we make about meritocracy really need to change.

The Police officer who can literally shoot an unarmed kid in the back as the kid is running, and up on paid suspension, while the 16 year old who works as Barrista gets fired for being 5 minutes late 3 times? Yeah, that needs to change.

The CEO who earns 500 K + bonuses and expenses per year and justifies it because they are a "job creator" and because they are on call? That was the guy who wasn't at risk AT ALL during this damn Pandemic. That kid working at a coffee shop who gets told that they are an essential employee and they can't stay home in a pandemic? More valuable than that CEO by a factor of ten.

And all these folks who become millionaires by doing their hobbies for a living? Well, I'll be the first to say they should make decent living- enough to buy and maintain a decent size house, a decent vehicle, maybe even two. But there's no real reason an Actor needs to make a million to be in a movie, which they would probably want to be in because it's a cool project. IF there are dangerous stunts, hazard pay works; I'll also cut slack for athletes who subject themselves to debilitating injuries.

The video game industry treats its talent pool and employees poorly while its CEO's and shareholders make bank. In the music industry, we see stories of John Foggerty getting sued by a record company because the songs he wrote as a solo artist bear a passing resemblance to songs he also wrote as a member of CCR. Or Prince being so screwed over by record companies that he tattooed the word slave on his face and changed his name to an unpronounceable symbol; the ongoing issues with Taylor Swift's IP or the free Britney movement... I'd love to bring the recording industry to its knees and usher in a world where every musician can have a studio in their basement and do it themselves.

Metallica suing Nabster, despite the fact that by the time the lawsuit was launched, every member of the band had already made more money than I will make in my entire life.

I haven't ever bought a recast, and I haven't even downloaded any bootleg PDF's for years... Despite the fact that I bought a bunch of garbage E-pubs that don't properly display on my computer screen even after trying the top 5 recommended e-pub reading programs; they should have all had warnings on them that said: "If you buy a machine that is designed specifically to read e-pubs, this should work for you, but if you expect it to be readable on a multipurpose computer, you are taking a risk by buying this product."

Feel like I have every right to bootleg those, even though I still haven't done it. Just like I feel like I have every right to download a digital copy of music that my mom bought me on 8 track, that I bought again on LP and then again on CD.

I don't- the consequences of getting caught if the industry decides to make an example of you far outweigh the quality of life improvements that you get for owning the music instead of just streaming it. And that's the other stupid thing about all these laws- the maximum fines and penalties are far beyond proportional to the crime. It cost me $10 to go see your movie. If I download it and get caught, I'm being told that the maximum fine is $10k and up to 5 years in prison? How about- okay, you caught me, here's your 10 bucks?

And of course, textbook copyright is the greatest evil when you look at how it contributes to systemic wealth inequality by ensuring that education continues to be a privilege and not a right- especially when you realize that systemic wealth inequality has been a factor in just about every war we've ever fought.

Again, I'm not here to convince anyone that anything I've said is right or wrong. This is how I see the world based on my life and my career. If I owned a house, a car, a boat, a cottage, and enough to take an overseas vacation every year, I'd probably think balancing income inequality was a lower priority too. If I was homeless, you wouldn't be reading this right now, but I'd probably be even more incentivized to speak for the have-nots than I am right now.

I don't buy recast but I would have no moral remorse for doing it and I'll never say anything to anyone that buys it.
I'm just embracing the capitalistic values of our modern society that all people that is actually rich or ultra rich has accepted.

In the sage words of Captain Jack Sparrow: "Take what you can. Give nothing back"

I'm just sad to see fellow proletarians coming out to defend the rules imposed unto us by lobbyes funded by big multinational corporations, and shaming other poor lads whose only crime was to pay some rusian or chinese blocke a couple bucks less compared to MSRP to have their little soldier toys.

The original poster does actually bring something interesting up, though, albeit apparently not intentionally:

GW would much, much rather you buy the occasional recast than move on to a competitor game. They'll never admit this out loud, but it's the truth, and it's why they don't actually do much to go after producers, especially if they're just making bits and/or OOP stuff. GW's top priority is keeping you in the GW hobbysphere, and if the choice is between letting you have an occasional recast and staying a GW product purchaser or you stopping buying GW products entirely, that's a very easy choice for them to make.

I have come across recasts in the past, and to be honest asides the odd mould-slip/fault they're on par, if not better, than anything I've bought from FW in years. Seeing stuff like this makes me less sympathetic for FW keeping their prices so high, even less so when products are regularly removed from their range to be replaced with some ultra-niche product like a Necromunda bounty hunter or Rhino MkXVI Rhino Doors.

Recasts wouldn’t exist if GW took advantage of their market position to maintain and slowly grow their revenue stream through quality and reputation. Quality is... in models ok, the rest not so much. But reputation? GW has their leadership to blame for leading me to now encourage people to not payGW for anything that can be had better for less or more from another outlet.

Summary: GW sad someone recast some model? That is worth 0 feths. Fanboys worried that some GW models got recast? That is worth 0 feths.

 jeff white wrote:
Recasts wouldn’t exist if GW took advantage of their market position to maintain and slowly grow their revenue stream through quality and reputation.

Eh I think recasts would exists so long as its cheaper for someone to recast than it is for GW to provide that model at retail to customers. Which chances are means that it will always be around. Granted good community service and company attitude and favourable international exchange rates on products can help reduce the chances of customers seeking out recasts in the first place.


ACtually with GW's embargos on trading its surprising that they don't do that more so in terms of lowering prices in some regions without it harming them. I guess the risk for them is lowering values and having the community start shipping things around even if the stores are unable to trade outside of their regions. There's also the issue that some prices are higher for reasons outside of GW's control - eg NewZealand and Australia have inflated prices on a lot of products not just GW models which suggests to me that either everyone hates them or that there's a lot of red tape and other aspects that increases costs to trade to those countries beyond just the postage cost.

You all remember the site doesn’t allow discussing recasting, right? Right?

Johnny: The site doesn't allow discussion of where to find recasts, as far as I recall.
There's kinds of recasting I think are fine. If I recast my minis at home myself for my own use, I don't see any problem with that. I can do what I like with my own possessions, GW sold me the minis but they don't have any right to stop me making copies of them in resin or whatever any more than any product I'm sold I can make a copy of if I have the skill and materials.

I know a lot of corporations would like us all to move to a model of subscription or whatever so we don't actually OWN anything, we just rent it from them, but feth that noise.

Then it gets maybe a bit muddy if I'm selling my stuff at the fleamarket and my recast stuff is in there. That's probably fine too, as long as I'm not going out of my way to sell recasts specifically, my stuff is my stuff and I can sell it if I want to.

I do think it's a bit more questionable if ALL I do is recast minis designed by someone else and then sell them. GW is not particularly going to be hurt by this, but smaller producers in the wargaming hobby are often not making a lot of money, and I wouldn't think it's right to sell recasts of their stuff for profit. It's also not right to sell GW's stuff, but I feel less bad about that since the company itself is so hypocritical when it comes to intellectual property and has behaved so poorly in the past.

But I don't think recasting is straightforwardly stealing, and there are plenty of scenarios where recasting is absolutely fine, and also scenarios where selling a recast model is fine.

I would consider none of this "recast" except maaaaybe the third.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The original poster does actually bring something interesting up, though, albeit apparently not intentionally:

GW would much, much rather you buy the occasional recast than move on to a competitor game. They'll never admit this out loud, but it's the truth, and it's why they don't actually do much to go after producers, especially if they're just making bits and/or OOP stuff. GW's top priority is keeping you in the GW hobbysphere, and if the choice is between letting you have an occasional recast and staying a GW product purchaser or you stopping buying GW products entirely, that's a very easy choice for them to make.

I don't know too many people that 'occasionally' get recasts. It seems to me that once someone has tasted the recasting drug, they go all in. Ironically, a few people I know have likely spent more money on recasts than they would have with GW product. Yes their collection is larger as a result, but some of the models you really can tell that they're recast. In a way, it's similar to 3d printing. Some people I've seen have whole 3d printed armies. They often look awful, because you can see the printing lines, even through the paint. Granted, resin printing has gotten much smoother and better, but people that are interested in getting cheap models aren't interested in investing the time/money/effort into getting good resin prints.

It doesn't help that in my area, there are many game stores that don't care what models you play with, so people with recast or printed armies can find plenty of opponents, usually with other people that complain about GW prices/policy.

Plus, GW can't really afford to go after all the recasters. As soon as they crack down on one, another one pops up (or the same person just makes a different website). It's right up there with scalping. In the current realm of things, there's just not a ton you can do.

When talking recasters, it's very easy to dip into the psychology of the ego. People tend to protect their ego rather passionately. When confronted by the fact that they did something wrong, people would rather find an excuse for their behavior to maintain that they are 'a good person' somewhere inside, and that they were doing the right thing, despite doing something rather bad or not nice. When it comes to recasters, I see the same psychology. You can use law or logic to try to explain that they're doing something wrong, but then that would mean they would have to... admit that they are doing something wrong. In order to protect their ego, they will shift the blame to GW or FW or the prices or the economy or whatever else.

So we can have these arguments over and over again. Until the community actively puts their foot down on the issue and those that buy recast models admit that what they're doing isn't for the good of the community or the hobby, then the cycle shall continue.