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Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting one more toughness to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

True, but isn't everything on steroids now? They kind of need the toughness bonus to not die instantly due to a lack of a decent save.

I see Firestorm Games just noted they won't be putting this up on their website and ordering will be in store only due to how limited it is.

I already decided to skip this box, I'd rather hunt the Killteam one out of the two and I can wait for the main Ork book release, but good luck to anyone hunting one, sounds like its going to be rough.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

True, but isn't everything on steroids now? They kind of need the toughness bonus to not die instantly due to a lack of a decent save.

Perhaps, but the idea that the 9th edition codex will be weaker than the previous one is just plain wrong.

It may be the weakest of the 9th edition codexes, but that buff alone makes it stronger than its predecessor.

 Tyran wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

True, but isn't everything on steroids now? They kind of need the toughness bonus to not die instantly due to a lack of a decent save.

Perhaps, but the idea that the 9th edition codex will be weaker than the previous one is just plain wrong.

It may be the weakest of the 9th edition codexes, but that buff alone makes it stronger than its predecessor.

I spent all of 7th edition playing with arguably the weakest codex out of the bunch. I'd rather not have a repeat of that experience throughout all of 9th edition and up until whatever 10th ed ork codex gets released. "Weakest of the 9th edition codexes" is still.... weakest of the codexes.

Well, someone has to be the weakest of the codexes. And at least for now, the variance between 9th edition codexes is far lesser than in 7th edition.

 xeen wrote:
So, I don't play Orks (I am watching the changes just because I enjoy seeing the overall changes to the game and like having some idea of what opposing armies will be like) so I don't know if these changes are good or bad. But I would say that Ork players should re-read the Dark Eldar and Admec N&R threads from the spring about how "bad" those armies were going to be prior to having all the rules released. Maybe the Ork book will be the first bust of 9th. I would not bet on that however, as so far every 9th book has been an improvement over the 8th book. And most are top dog when they are released. I hope that is what Ork players get, as everyone deserves time in the sun (until the next codex release lol)

Death guard was the same. I will withhold judgement on the ork codex until I've played a game or two with it, though I must say that I'm not super optimistic on things. This definitely has 7th edition vibes to it.

If I remember correctly one of the major things that was controversial for the DG release was the change of disgustingly resilient. I don't remember if there was much beyond that since the flat +1A is better than conditional hateful assault and 2W stat boost was always a good thing. The problem with the Ork leaks is that the vast majority have been nerfs or sidegrades at best. The klan kulturs are really the damning part since they really didn't upgrade the ones that needed it (Blood Axes) and nerfed the ones that were fine as is (Evil Sunz).

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.

 Jidmah wrote:

In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.

KFF is partially a side grade as the wording went from wholly within to just within (according to the leaks), so weaker but easier to use. And +1 pts is not really a big raise for +1T.

Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.

There are plenty of S6 and S7 anti-horde weaponry, and all those +1 to wound rules, and the (admittedly rare) +2 is always successful rules.

The biggest difference here between what the other 9th ed book previews looked like and the ork book is that we have a pretty long list of rumors/leaks that seem to have a good track record. The other books did not have extensive leaks.

And based on those leaks, it ain't good.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.

That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.

I mean, we never see Hvy Onslaught gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, right?

 bullyboy wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.

That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

 Dendarien wrote:
The biggest difference here between what the other 9th ed book previews looked like and the ork book is that we have a pretty long list of rumors/leaks that seem to have a good track record. The other books did not have extensive leaks.

And based on those leaks, it ain't good.

There were tons of leaks of pretty much every book right before the MRB Preview came out for all of them. This level of leaks is in line with the others. I remember all the italian jokes about the Ad Mech one.
I

 Sasori wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
The biggest difference here between what the other 9th ed book previews looked like and the ork book is that we have a pretty long list of rumors/leaks that seem to have a good track record. The other books did not have extensive leaks.

And based on those leaks, it ain't good.

There were tons of leaks of pretty much every book right before the MRB Preview came out for all of them. This level of leaks is in line with the others. I remember all the italian jokes about the Ad Mech one.
I

I stand corrected then - I don't play those armies so I wasn't trawling around for rumors on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.

That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

Yeah...I don't think the mini transhuman is good. The real benefit is that it makes +1 to wound rules moot. It certainly feels niche in comparison to something like Goffs.

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Orks are getting +1T to all their infantry. That's a pretty big army wide buff.

In exchange KFF was nerfed and their points were raised.

Add the army wide transhuman vs sub S8 from the Snakebite kultur, and at the very least there is potential there.

Sorry, but sub S7 transhuman is pretty garbage for an army exclusively made up of T5 and T6 models. The only "potential" here is that it does absolutely nothing because your opponent has no weapons affected by it.

That's absolutely not true. I was just talking to my Ork playing buddy the other day and stated that I'm excited to bring back my favourite 40K weapon (the assault cannon), as it's perfect for T5 6+ sv Orks.....except with snakebites, it isn't.

Great. Except the average ork player isn't going to be facing a lot of those, regardless of how much you personally like that specific gun.
As army-wide buffs go, it is niche.

They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.

 bullyboy wrote:
But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.

As a Sisters player, I was definitely rubbing my hands with glee at the HF buff, just in time to stay ahead of the Ork T5 increase. Absolutely can confirm that Snakebites will probably be popular just by dint of having a big new release that caters to them with squiggy goodness has definitely dampened my spirits to hear that my S6 flamers will wound an entire clan on 4's instead of 3's as I was expecting.

I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.

 the_scotsman wrote:
I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.

Agreed. If +1 attack for 20 or more boyz is going away there's no reason to run big mobs. Right now it seems to me if we'll go in on regular boyz for Goffs or snagga boyz.

The reason to run large units is the FOC, unless you want to be paying CP on extra detachments, and stratagems and auras which naturally work better with larger units.

Feral Orks in 40K isn't a new thing, if you go back to 2nd it was a core theme of the army. They are just reintroducing old ideas, there are still new 'Goff' Ork releases too. Last big release was Kult of Speed. Now we have the three major themes done.

 Dendarien wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.

Agreed. If +1 attack for 20 or more boyz is going away there's no reason to run big mobs. Right now it seems to me if we'll go in on regular boyz for Goffs or snagga boyz.

in my eyes its gonna depend on whether EGT, the 3Cp fight again, or Da Jump are still in the mix.

given Ghazzy's 'no modifiers to attrition' aura which is at least SOMETHING I think if there are still strats like EGT and get stuck in then you may still want big blobbos.

Voss wrote:
They've given Snakebites two new abilities, but still managed the impressive task of making the loss of 6+ FNP in exchange feel like a downgrade.

Ah, that's not true, +1 to wound for squigs is actually rather decent if you want to build an army around those. That's definitely better than just being worse deffskulls.

 Tyran wrote:
The reason to run large units is the FOC, unless you want to be paying CP on extra detachments, and stratagems and auras which naturally work better with larger units.

Sorry I wasn't very specific - I can see 6x 20 man units instead of 4x 30 for 120 boyz for instance. The FOC is a bit of a limit, but boyz are likely going up in cost anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:
I think what we'll see is that every competitive list is going to remain Goffs as it is now, but unless there are some super good stratagems (and I mean better than the 'no mukkin about on a 5+' one for goffs) offensively for boyz people will just run tons and tons of 10-boyz units.

Agreed. If +1 attack for 20 or more boyz is going away there's no reason to run big mobs. Right now it seems to me if we'll go in on regular boyz for Goffs or snagga boyz.

in my eyes its gonna depend on whether EGT, the 3Cp fight again, or Da Jump are still in the mix.

given Ghazzy's 'no modifiers to attrition' aura which is at least SOMETHING I think if there are still strats like EGT and get stuck in then you may still want big blobbos.

Green Tide is gone if the reliable rumor source is to be believed.

sidebar, it would be truly hilarious to me if Dakka was indeed not Assault because I think there would be absolutely no weapon in the entire book that would benefit from half the newly-nerfed Evil Sunz trait.

Also i note no leaks for Freebootas? A shame, they were what i often ended up running my sunz as since it was a more fun trait than sunz.

 the_scotsman wrote:
sidebar, it would be truly hilarious to me if Dakka was indeed not Assault because I think there would be absolutely no weapon in the entire book that would benefit from half the newly-nerfed Evil Sunz trait.

Also i note no leaks for Freebootas? A shame, they were what i often ended up running my sunz as since it was a more fun trait than sunz.

Rumor is FB kultur is gone

 bullyboy wrote:
But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.

Ok, first of all, those weapons aren't "common" at all, but limited to two or three units of an enemy army. Look at whatever army trait your favorite army has and imagine it only working against 2-3 units in your opponent's army and doing zilch otherwise. But I'll bite anyways, I have a regular DA opponent who often brings a huntmaster and a gatling redemptor.

The talon master kills 9.666 T5 boyz. With transhuman it kills 8 boyz, 1.666 less than before. And just for completeness - the with the old snakebite kulture it would have killed only 7.555 boyz.

The redemptor (storm bolter, gatling, rocked pods, targeting 11+ models) kills 10.481 T5 boyz. With snakebite transhuman it kills 9.148, 1.333 less than before. With old snakebite FNP it's 8.901.

If you max out on redemtors and talon masters, the culture saves 7.333 boyz per turn worth 66 points.

So it's safe to say, no matter how many of your favorite S6 and 7 guns you bring, the transhuman part of the snakebites culture is never, ever worth bringing snakebites for.

 Jidmah wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
But Hvy Onslaught Gatlings, SOB Hvy Flamers, Shurican Cannons......don't see a lot of those either? There are PLENTY of S6 weapons out there usually ideal for hordes as they are often high ROF, 1D and wound T3 on 2's. Wounding Orks on 3's was OK, but now that will drop to 4's. I just personally love the Assault Cannon (you don't have Talon Masters in your gaming circle???) but there are other weapons similar.

Ok, first of all, those weapons aren't "common" at all, but limited to two or three units of an enemy army. Look at whatever army trait your favorite army has and imagine it only working against 2-3 units in your opponent's army and doing zilch otherwise. But I'll bite anyways, I have a regular DA opponent who often brings a huntmaster and a gatling redemptor.

The talon master kills 9.666 T5 boyz. With transhuman it kills 8 boyz, 1.666 less than before. And just for completeness - the with the old snakebite kulture it would have killed only 7.555 boyz.

The redemptor (storm bolter, gatling, rocked pods, targeting 11+ models) kills 10.481 T5 boyz. With snakebite transhuman it kills 9.148, 1.333 less than before. With old snakebite FNP it's 8.901.

If you max out on redemtors and talon masters, the culture saves 7.333 boyz per turn worth 66 points.

So it's safe to say, no matter how many of your favorite S6 and 7 guns you bring, the transhuman part of the snakebites culture is never, ever worth bringing snakebites for.

That was a really good analysis Jidmah.

basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).

You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.

 bullyboy wrote:
basically like so many other traits....marginal improvement over the course of game, but improvements none the less.
Deathwing for example...sure Transhuman is good, but how many Terminators am I bringing, how many 3's were you going to roll to wound anyway, and how many points did it save over the game (the chief apoth saves far more points IMHO).

You can dismiss it as marginal, but that's because it's your army. I'd argue that you could apply that rule of thumb to any trait.

It's only a marginal improvement if you compare it to nothing. It's worse than the old 6+ FNP snakebites had and no one played snakebites.