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2021/04/27 19:25:47
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
The people are going to buy the stuff anyways. Warhammer is more like selling drugs than any other kind of product because it is a literal mental addiction people have to this hobby. They will buy at all times. It would be a hilariously good idea as we would finally have a chance at having a balanced game. Want to generate buzz to sell more product? Just come out with a campaign supplement like PA . Models don't need to come out all at once...just the codex. Models generate their own buzz. It would increase their sales. How many people right now aren't buying CSM because they don't know what models to buy because they have no rules? They are losing money. There is no doubt about it.
A campaign book generates nowhere near the buzz a new codex does. Perfect balance is a myth and only exists in the dreams of children, even the start of 8th with all the Indexes where there was nothing but unit profiles, was unbalanced.
If GW releases a codex with rules for units with no models that gives 3rd parties a chance to make a competing product. The 5th edition Necron codex had a good chunk of units with no models which meant that all of those units were unusable until the models were released months later, so releasing a codex with any new units without models isn't going to generate sales. GW isn't losing money because they haven't updated all the codexes to 9th edition, some people buy models for the competitive edge and others will buy what they like best, some do both. At the same time, you will have new players who will go for the basics (a Start Collecting or Combat Patrol) and then fall into the categories I mentioned. 9th edition got announced midway through Covid and GW saw a huge sales increase over that period, which would indicate that even without any knowledge of how the new edition would affect their armies people were still buying models.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fallen literally don't matter and maybe 1 in 1000 players has any interest in such an absurd faction.
CSM on the other hand is probably the 2nd most popular faction in the game behind space marines. Priorities are completely screwed by GW right now.
I must be forgetting Cypher saved Guilliman, helped him get to Terra and possibly has the Lion Sword. I must have also forgotten that the Fallen are the reason the Deathwing, Ravenwing, Inner Circle, and Interrogator Chaplains exist in their current form and that the Dark Angels are the Unforgiven purely because the Fallen exist. I'm sure the traitors of a loyalist Legion who are still alive and very much kicking in the current timeline are completely irrelevant and minor, with their discovery bringing no doubt whatsoever into the loyalties of the Dark Angels and their Successors.
As for faction popularity, Death Guard are more popular than generic CSM thanks to Dark Imperium and the recent full model range they received. I'd be willing to bet that Aeldari, Orks, Nids and Necrons all rank higher on army popularity than CSM right now.
The Fallen are getting a WD Index, not a full Codex because they are too small a faction to get a Codex. This outrage over a tiny amount of supplementary rules is a joke.
2021/04/27 19:35:57
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
I prefer to talk about world eaters rather than being OK with them being garbage and proxying them as them as Blood Angels or whatever, i get what you are saying. I just but prefer to keep my army identity than throwing it away, thats just as horrible, if not even worse, to me anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 19:41:10
6000 World Eaters/Khorne
2021/04/27 19:45:14
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
What "HQ detachment"?
The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
I prefer to talk about world eaters rather than being OK with them being garbage and proxying them as them as Blood Angels or whatever, i get what you are saying. I just but prefer to keep my army identity than throwing it away, thats just as horrible, if not even worse, to me anyway.
Army identity only exists in your head. Using your models is what matters, not some garbage about identity and the apparent need for using ONLY certain rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 19:46:29
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2021/04/27 19:49:40
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
What "HQ detachment"?
The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
The Supreme Command detachment is now for only Primarchs, Daemon Primarchs, and Supreme Commanders. World Eaters don't have any of those.
2021/04/27 19:57:29
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Funny. How impactful a little white dwarf article can be for an army. Look at harlequins! Strongest army in the game from a few pages of rules updates. Minor effort needed for a very big effect. GW is asleep at the wheel right now.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2021/04/27 20:03:16
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
What "HQ detachment"?
The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL who is this "everyone else" defending World Eaters? Please show me.
I'm talking about most of your posts in general. No one is talking about WE, because blowhards would come in and murder the discussion.
I am actually
Well don't bother. Use Alpha Legion rules for all your troops and enjoy the total flexibility of actually getting them places, and if you really want just take the HQ detachment for World Eater HQs.
I prefer to talk about world eaters rather than being OK with them being garbage and proxying them as them as Blood Angels or whatever, i get what you are saying. I just but prefer to keep my army identity than throwing it away, thats just as horrible, if not even worse, to me anyway.
Army identity only exists in your head. Using your models is what matters, not some garbage about identity and the apparent need for using ONLY certain rules.
Hey, if you wanna talk about garbage, id say your advice is exactly that, you wanna proxy, go ahead, heck use your models in backgammon for all i care, i aint stopping you. Im just telling you im defenetly NOT gonna be playing World Eaters as Alpha Legion.
6000 World Eaters/Khorne
2021/04/27 20:14:22
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Supreme Command one, don't think that's changed much. If it has, then you'd still use just Alpha Legion because the World Eaters rules are LOL worthy.
I find this hilariously ironic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/27 20:14:33
2021/04/28 02:05:00
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Gadzilla666 wrote:The Supreme Command detachment is now for only Primarchs, Daemon Primarchs, and Supreme Commanders. World Eaters don't have any of those.
For now. They've already released two Daemon Primarchs at present. At this point, I think it is only a matter of time till we see a Bloodthirster Angron from Citadel. Along with it will be Codex: World Eaters. One can hope it will come out this Edition along with Codex: Emperor's Children and Daemon Prince Fulgrim. It will come, though, unless GW closes their doors permanently with no one to take up the IP.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Army identity only exists in your head. Using your models is what matters, not some garbage about identity and the apparent need for using ONLY certain rules.
Eh, considering how much of army identity is baked in to the rules by GW, it's not as far off as you make it seem.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2021/04/28 03:08:31
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
I would love some Imperial Guard Indexes. Something like:
- Inquisitorial Storm Troopers: Replace the <Tempestus Regiment> keyword with <Ordo>.
This then allows Militarum Tempestus units to be taken in Inquisition detachments and benefit from <Ordo> abilities rather than their <Tempestus Regiment> abilities. It also means an Inquisition army can now use Patrol and Battalion detachments.
- Gue'vesa: Replace the Imperium and Astra Militarum keywords with T’au Empire, replace the <Regiment> keyword with Gue'vesa. Add Gue'vesa to the list of Alien Auxiliaries.
By adding Gue'vesa units into the list of Alien Auxiliaries they don't prevent prevent other units from getting a <Sept> Tenet. While Gue'vesa won't benefit from any Sept abilities or stratagems, or even their own Astra Militarum stratagems anymore. They can receive both the benefits from orders, as well as things like Markerlights and Etherals.
Thus filling that tactical thematic niche between the Kroot and the true Tau units.
- Lost and the Damned: Replace the Imperium keyword with Chaos, replace the Astra Militarum keyword with Lost and the Damned, replace the <Regiment> keyword with <Mark Of Chaos> and <Legion>. Add Lost and the Damned to the list of Mere Mortals.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/04/28 05:06:00
2021/04/28 09:36:40
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
I agree I think WD is a good place for nice indexes which I think the fallen are. What i think is part of the problem is no model no rules thing.
Rather than linking the fallen to existing codex units, either CSM or first born SM, I’d happily have an index with new units that I have to kit bash. Which may be something interesting for people that have been in 40K for a long time.
I remember in 2nd ed (I think) there was a WD with an index for space pirates and of course it was just for fun and you have to find your own suitable minis
2021/04/28 12:49:59
Subject: Re:The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
bullyboy wrote: Can't wait for the reactions to these Fallen getting 2 wounds before a real chaos codex.
I think people betting on 2 wounds saving the faction are making a bad bet. Lots of marines are struggling right now. W2/W3 isn't doing much to save them. Giving CSM / Fallen W2 won't magically make them good. There's a whole lot more work needed to have that come together.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 13:42:22
2021/04/28 14:05:15
Subject: Re:The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
bullyboy wrote: Can't wait for the reactions to these Fallen getting 2 wounds before a real chaos codex.
I think people betting on 2 wounds saving the faction are making a bad bet. Lots of marines are struggling right now. W2/W3 isn't doing much to save them. Giving CSM / Fallen W2 won't magically make them good. There's a whole lot more work needed to have that come together.
But who is floating around making that bet? I don't think anybody actually expects 2 wounds to save the faction though, it's simply that the issue is emblematic of GW's treatment of CSM. Waiting for a codex overhaul is one thing, waiting for a codex overhaul while also waiting for a wound update that was promised nearly a year ago after seeing PDF updates for various loyalist subfactions is something else entirely. It's just a "feels bad" sort of thing.
The Circle of Iniquity The Fourth Seal
2021/04/28 14:31:14
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
W2 wast supposed to make SM superior as a faction it’s to make them superior as troop units over IG regiments, for example, in the context of 9th Ed and the amount of damage being dealt. They need to be more robust than mortal troops.
And who is waiting for the fallen index for competitive reasons? Most people, like me, will do it cos they think the fallen are cool, assuming we get enough units to make the army cool in the way we imagine the fallen, or close enough.
If it’s just another Creations of Bile type rule set then it’s not worth it because the CSM units don’t suit the fallen like they do a COB army. At least not in my head.
Probably there will be enough rules for a a detachment of units including cypher that don’t cost CP. so not a full army index.
2021/04/28 15:07:39
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
jaredb wrote: So, based on warhammer community, looks like they are getting some cheeky rules for the fallen. Even a relic and a strat or two!
I wonder if it'll be a regiment of renoun or something like that?
Hmmmmmmm they said "Specialist Detachment."
That makes me think it's just gona be a reprint of the current specialist detachment they got way back in vigilius: "FALLEN ANGELS
Chaos Space Marines Stratagem
When the Fallen gather in numbers, the machinations of Cypher gain incredible momentum.
Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. You can include Sorcerers and Chaos Rhinos in a Vanguard Detachment that includes only FALLEN units. If you do so, they replace their <MARK OF CHAOS>, HERETIC ASTARTES and <LEGION> keywords with the FALLEN keywords. FALLEN Sorcerers also replace their Death to the False Emperor ability with the Fallen Angels ability from the Fallen datasheet. Pick a FALLEN Detachment from your army to be a Fallen Angels Specialist Detachment. FALLEN units in that Detachment gain the FALLEN ANGELS keyword, but they lose the IMPERIUM Faction keyword (if they have it)."
Basically just "hey you know how your whole army is just one bad unit and one bad HQ? now it's also those two things, plus rhinos and sorcerors. That's it."
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/04/30 14:07:04
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
jaredb wrote: So, based on warhammer community, looks like they are getting some cheeky rules for the fallen. Even a relic and a strat or two!
I wonder if it'll be a regiment of renoun or something like that?
Hmmmmmmm they said "Specialist Detachment."
That makes me think it's just gona be a reprint of the current specialist detachment they got way back in vigilius: "FALLEN ANGELS
Chaos Space Marines Stratagem
When the Fallen gather in numbers, the machinations of Cypher gain incredible momentum.
Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. You can include Sorcerers and Chaos Rhinos in a Vanguard Detachment that includes only FALLEN units. If you do so, they replace their <MARK OF CHAOS>, HERETIC ASTARTES and <LEGION> keywords with the FALLEN keywords. FALLEN Sorcerers also replace their Death to the False Emperor ability with the Fallen Angels ability from the Fallen datasheet. Pick a FALLEN Detachment from your army to be a Fallen Angels Specialist Detachment. FALLEN units in that Detachment gain the FALLEN ANGELS keyword, but they lose the IMPERIUM Faction keyword (if they have it)."
Basically just "hey you know how your whole army is just one bad unit and one bad HQ? now it's also those two things, plus rhinos and sorcerors. That's it."
lol, damn you.
Hopefully they update it.
2021/04/30 14:18:45
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
New relic: Ap-1 damage 2 2-shot bolt pistol that rerolls 1 ro wound vs dark angels
Stratagem: reroll hit rolls vs dark angels
Also since a demon Prince was shown in that image I predict fallen will not be able to field demon princes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I predict no 2 wound dark angels
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 14:19:23
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/04/30 15:40:00
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
New relic: Ap-1 damage 2 2-shot bolt pistol that rerolls 1 ro wound vs dark angels
Stratagem: reroll hit rolls vs dark angels
Also since a demon Prince was shown in that image I predict fallen will not be able to field demon princes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I predict no 2 wound dark angels
Someone said it's 10 pages, so they might have to introduce a new profile for W2 Chosen (which is what they basically have been). If they weren't, people would throw a hissyfit. Then again that hasn't stopped the people here from still purchasing low effort rules sooooooo...
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2021/04/30 20:44:15
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
I'm toying with the thought of adding a small detachment of power and/or terminator armour to my guard army. If the Fallen keep the Imperium faction keyword, get a non named character HQ and get 2 wounds, I might buy some of these guys.
Ironically, the other major contender would be a Deathwing Vanguard detachment.
Imperial Guard - 1500 GSC - 250
2021/04/30 20:51:42
Subject: Re:The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Why do Fallen units currently have the imperium keyword in the CSM codex?
Automatically Appended Next Post: From Warhammer community
“But it’s not just about the lore (fascinating though it is – especially in the case of the Fallen). You can also look forward to rules for a Fallen Angels Specialist Detachment, enabling you to field a bespoke formation of these enigmatic black-armoured renegades, and providing them with Stratagems and even a Relic too.”
There is a picture of a unit being led by cypher which may be a new fallen unit, unsure considering the vast SM range atm
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/30 21:30:33
2021/04/30 21:36:15
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Fallen have the Imperium keyword because Cypher is a dual faction character and his army needed to be the same. Cypher works against Chaos forces as much as Imperial, it's part of his enigma personality, so in-game that's represented by him and the Fallen have Chaos and Imperium keywords.
2021/05/01 04:04:14
Subject: The Indexes Are Coming! The Indexes Are Coming!
Gert wrote: Fallen have the Imperium keyword because Cypher is a dual faction character and his army needed to be the same. Cypher works against Chaos forces as much as Imperial, it's part of his enigma personality, so in-game that's represented by him and the Fallen have Chaos and Imperium keywords.
But the extra rules we got in vigilus were to enhance them for a CSM army?
6000 World Eaters/Khorne 
Wolfspear's 2k
Harlequins 2k
Chaos Knights 2k
Spiderfangs 2k
Ossiarch Bonereapers 1k 
Imperial Guard - 1500 
GSC - 250 